Re: [Tagging] parking spaces limited to cars (no busses, trucks, etc.)
Am 03.05.2011 um 11:56 schrieb Stefan Bethke: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Car_access_tag I've updated the draft with concrete verbiage to be added/changed on the access and Map features pages. Stefan -- Stefan Bethke s...@lassitu.de Fon +49 151 14070811 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] parking spaces limited to cars (no busses, trucks, etc.)
Am 29.04.2011 22:18, schrieb Stefan Bethke: It appears that people have been using car as a key for this purpose. Should I use that, and add an appropriate entry below motorcar=*? There is clearly a key needed for this class of vehicles, so why not just use car. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] parking spaces limited to cars (no busses, trucks, etc.)
2011/5/1 David Murn da...@incanberra.com.au: On Sun, 2011-05-01 at 02:10 +0200, Stefan Bethke wrote: If I was towing a caravan, I wouldnt set my navigation device to think Im in a car or a motorbike, Id most probably use hgv. this thread is not about hacking your system so that it does roughly what you want, but about how to express unambiguously the given restrictions and allowances. Probably motor_car=designated, hgv=no, bus=no, tourist_bus=no (coaches) would meet the particular case, but a dedicated tag for only cars does not seem exaggerated to me neither. So, is the parking youre tagging, exclusively for cars? Are motorbikes/trikes/sidecars not allowed to park there? motorbikes with sidecars and trikes might be allowed and motorbikes alone not I guess. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] parking spaces limited to cars (no busses, trucks, etc.)
Am 01.05.2011 um 13:14 schrieb Sebastian Hohmann: Am 29.04.2011 22:18, schrieb Stefan Bethke: It appears that people have been using car as a key for this purpose. Should I use that, and add an appropriate entry below motorcar=*? There is clearly a key needed for this class of vehicles, so why not just use car. Martin thinks, and I kinda agree, that motorcar and car would be confusing. I think there's three potential ways forward: o Change the meaning of motorcar to only refer to cars, not trucks, busses, etc. This would require a new tag for all double tracked motorized vehicles to be introduced. motorcar has been used over 200,000 times, so this would cause some confusion. o Introduce a new tag for two-tracked, small passenger vehicles. car would seem a natural fit, except for the potential confusion with motorcar o Deprecate motorcar and introduce two new tags for double tracked motorized vehicles and two-tracked, small passenger vehicles. It is not obvious to me what these tags should be called to avoid confusion. Stefan -- Stefan Bethke s...@lassitu.de Fon +49 151 14070811 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] parking spaces limited to cars (no busses, trucks, etc.)
Am 01.05.2011 15:13, schrieb Stefan Bethke: Am 01.05.2011 um 13:14 schrieb Sebastian Hohmann: Am 29.04.2011 22:18, schrieb Stefan Bethke: It appears that people have been using car as a key for this purpose. Should I use that, and add an appropriate entry below motorcar=*? There is clearly a key needed for this class of vehicles, so why not just use car. Martin thinks, and I kinda agree, that motorcar and car would be confusing. I think there's three potential ways forward: o Change the meaning of motorcar to only refer to cars, not trucks, busses, etc. This would require a new tag for all double tracked motorized vehicles to be introduced. motorcar has been used over 200,000 times, so this would cause some confusion. o Introduce a new tag for two-tracked, small passenger vehicles. car would seem a natural fit, except for the potential confusion with motorcar o Deprecate motorcar and introduce two new tags for double tracked motorized vehicles and two-tracked, small passenger vehicles. It is not obvious to me what these tags should be called to avoid confusion. Given these options, I still like car best. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] parking spaces limited to cars (no busses, trucks, etc.)
2011/4/29 Stefan Bethke s...@lassitu.de: It appears that people have been using car as a key for this purpose. Should I use that, and add an appropriate entry below motorcar=*? -1 IMHO motorcar should be defined as automobile/car, and not be used as a generic term including busses, hgv, goods and other. If we had car and motorcar parallelly this would create a lot of confusion. I'd also like to point at motor_vehicle which doesn't seem to be defined reasonably (it includes all vehicles with a motor, like mofas and mopeds with 25 / 50 ccm motors). In theory (by the name and category) it would also include motor-boats, RC cars and spacecraft ;-) (any motorized vehicle). This is not a useful definition in respect to traffic laws of the countries I know of (there is a definition gap for a class that does not include for example mofas and assisted bicycles). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] parking spaces limited to cars (no busses, trucks, etc.)
Am 30.04.2011 12:10, schrieb M∡rtin Koppenhoefer: 2011/4/29 Stefan Bethkes...@lassitu.de: It appears that people have been using car as a key for this purpose. Should I use that, and add an appropriate entry below motorcar=*? -1 IMHO motorcar should be defined as automobile/car, and not be used as a generic term including busses, hgv, goods and other. If we had car and motorcar parallelly this would create a lot of confusion. I'd also like to point at motor_vehicle which doesn't seem to be defined reasonably (it includes all vehicles with a motor, like mofas and mopeds with 25 / 50 ccm motors). In theory (by the name and category) it would also include motor-boats, RC cars and spacecraft ;-) (any motorized vehicle). This is not a useful definition in respect to traffic laws of the countries I know of (there is a definition gap for a class that does not include for example mofas and assisted bicycles). I can only speak about German laws, since I don't know the situation in other countries. This is also how I see the situation. motorcar is supposed to represent the class of Zeichen 251 (shows a car from the front), which forbids all double-tracked motor vehicles (which includes hgv and buses etc). car is supposed to represent the class of Zusatzzeichen 1048-10 (shows a car from the *side*), which applies only to passenger cars (so no hgv or buses etc). motor_vehicle is supposed to represent the class of Zeichen 260 (shows a motorcycle from the side and below a car from the front), which forbids all motorcyles, mofas etc as well as all double-tracked motor vehicles. So all these classes exist and are needed in Germany. The situation might be slightly different in other countries, but in a project like OSM, I don't think we can ever agree on a definition that fits every little detail and is applicable world-wide. Best regards, Sebastian ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] parking spaces limited to cars (no busses, trucks, etc.)
2011/4/30 Sebastian Hohmann m...@s-hohmann.de: Am 30.04.2011 12:10, schrieb M∡rtin Koppenhoefer: motorcar is supposed to represent the class of Zeichen 251 (shows a car from the front), which forbids all double-tracked motor vehicles (which includes hgv and buses etc). this is how I see this as well. car is supposed to represent the class of Zusatzzeichen 1048-10 (shows a car from the *side*), which applies only to passenger cars (so no hgv or buses etc). OK, fine. motor_vehicle is supposed to represent the class of Zeichen 260 (shows a motorcycle from the side and below a car from the front), which forbids all motorcyles, mofas etc as well as all double-tracked motor vehicles. this is not reflected by the wiki definition as I tried to point out above (includes mofa/moped, the wiki also names explicitly about all motorized vehicles) Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] parking spaces limited to cars (no busses, trucks, etc.)
Am 30.04.2011 um 12:10 schrieb M∡rtin Koppenhoefer: I'd also like to point at motor_vehicle which doesn't seem to be defined reasonably (it includes all vehicles with a motor, like mofas and mopeds with 25 / 50 ccm motors). All definitions we're talking about apply to highways and similar objects, and are listed on the Wiki under the heading land-based transportation. I think it's fine. Stefan -- Stefan Bethke s...@lassitu.de Fon +49 151 14070811 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] parking spaces limited to cars (no busses, trucks, etc.)
Am 30.04.2011 um 13:08 schrieb Sebastian Hohmann: motorcar is supposed to represent the class of Zeichen 251 (shows a car from the front), which forbids all double-tracked motor vehicles (which includes hgv and buses etc). car is supposed to represent the class of Zusatzzeichen 1048-10 (shows a car from the *side*), which applies only to passenger cars (so no hgv or buses etc). motor_vehicle is supposed to represent the class of Zeichen 260 (shows a motorcycle from the side and below a car from the front), which forbids all motorcyles, mofas etc as well as all double-tracked motor vehicles. So all these classes exist and are needed in Germany. The situation might be slightly different in other countries, but in a project like OSM, I don't think we can ever agree on a definition that fits every little detail and is applicable world-wide. When you say is supposed to represent what do you mean exactly? Neither the English nor the German version of the Wiki page references german road sign. Are you talikng about the intentions of those who created these tags, or documented them? Or how you feel things should be? Stefan -- Stefan Bethke s...@lassitu.de Fon +49 151 14070811 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] parking spaces limited to cars (no busses, trucks, etc.)
Am 30.04.2011 um 12:10 schrieb M∡rtin Koppenhoefer: 2011/4/29 Stefan Bethke s...@lassitu.de: It appears that people have been using car as a key for this purpose. Should I use that, and add an appropriate entry below motorcar=*? -1 IMHO motorcar should be defined as automobile/car, and not be used as a generic term including busses, hgv, goods and other. If we had car and motorcar parallelly this would create a lot of confusion. Then what would a proper classification look like? According to tagstat: Tag Usage vehicle 22618 motor_vehicle 42743 motorcar 209720 car 1475 bus 42842 hgv 45609 goods 16948 To properly represent German law (sign 251 cars and other multiple tracked vehicles not allowed) we need a tag for all two-tracked vehicles (currently motorcar), plus we need tag specifically for just cars. Redefining the meaing of motorcar is sure to cause a lot of confusion. Does anyone have a copy of ISO 3833:1977 handy and could enlighten us what the standard defines as a term for all multitrack vehicles, if any? Stefan -- Stefan Bethke s...@lassitu.de Fon +49 151 14070811 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] parking spaces limited to cars (no busses, trucks, etc.)
Am 30.04.2011 um 15:10 schrieb Stefan Bethke: Am 30.04.2011 um 12:10 schrieb M∡rtin Koppenhoefer: 2011/4/29 Stefan Bethke s...@lassitu.de: It appears that people have been using car as a key for this purpose. Should I use that, and add an appropriate entry below motorcar=*? -1 IMHO motorcar should be defined as automobile/car, and not be used as a generic term including busses, hgv, goods and other. If we had car and motorcar parallelly this would create a lot of confusion. Then what would a proper classification look like? According to tagstat: Tag Usage vehicle 22618 motor_vehicle 42743 motorcar 209720 car 1475 bus 42842 hgv 45609 goods 16948 To properly represent German law (sign 251 cars and other multiple tracked vehicles not allowed) we need a tag for all two-tracked vehicles (currently motorcar), plus we need tag specifically for just cars. Redefining the meaing of motorcar is sure to cause a lot of confusion. Does anyone have a copy of ISO 3833:1977 handy and could enlighten us what the standard defines as a term for all multitrack vehicles, if any? And if you feel you need more classifications, here's a Wikipedia article on the EU classification: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/EG-Fahrzeugklasse (seems there's no English version) Stefan -- Stefan Bethke s...@lassitu.de Fon +49 151 14070811 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] parking spaces limited to cars (no busses, trucks, etc.)
On Sat, 2011-04-30 at 15:10 +0200, Stefan Bethke wrote: Am 30.04.2011 um 12:10 schrieb M∡rtin Koppenhoefer: 2011/4/29 Stefan Bethke s...@lassitu.de: It appears that people have been using car as a key for this purpose. Should I use that, and add an appropriate entry below motorcar=*? -1 IMHO motorcar should be defined as automobile/car, and not be used as a generic term including busses, hgv, goods and other. If we had car and motorcar parallelly this would create a lot of confusion. Then what would a proper classification look like? According to tagstat: Tag Usage vehicle 22618 motor_vehicle 42743 motorcar 209720 car 1475 bus 42842 hgv 45609 goods 16948 To properly represent German law (sign 251 cars and other multiple tracked vehicles not allowed) we need a tag for all two-tracked vehicles (currently motorcar), plus we need tag specifically for just cars. Maybe the alternative is to instead tag that its only suitable for single-tracked vehicles (ie. access=no motorbike=yes) rather than trying to figure out what isnt allowed? From how I read the discussion that seems to be the problem? David ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] parking spaces limited to cars (no busses, trucks, etc.)
Am 30.04.2011 16:51, schrieb David Murn: On Sat, 2011-04-30 at 15:10 +0200, Stefan Bethke wrote: Am 30.04.2011 um 12:10 schrieb M∡rtin Koppenhoefer: 2011/4/29 Stefan Bethkes...@lassitu.de: It appears that people have been using car as a key for this purpose. Should I use that, and add an appropriate entry below motorcar=*? -1 IMHO motorcar should be defined as automobile/car, and not be used as a generic term including busses, hgv, goods and other. If we had car and motorcar parallelly this would create a lot of confusion. Then what would a proper classification look like? According to tagstat: Tag Usage vehicle 22618 motor_vehicle 42743 motorcar 209720 car 1475 bus 42842 hgv 45609 goods 16948 To properly represent German law (sign 251 cars and other multiple tracked vehicles not allowed) we need a tag for all two-tracked vehicles (currently motorcar), plus we need tag specifically for just cars. Maybe the alternative is to instead tag that its only suitable for single-tracked vehicles (ie. access=no motorbike=yes) rather than trying to figure out what isnt allowed? From how I read the discussion that seems to be the problem? But don't forget bicycle=yes, foot=yes, horse=yes, skating=yes, dog=yes, ... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] parking spaces limited to cars (no busses, trucks, etc.)
2011/4/30 Stefan Bethke s...@lassitu.de: And if you feel you need more classifications, here's a Wikipedia article on the EU classification: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/EG-Fahrzeugklasse (seems there's no English version) There is no English version of this, and it seems to deal only with trailers and what we call motor_vehicle. Many of the distinctions of this scheme are not needed or useful for OSM. Anyway, there is no class like Kraftfahrzeug in OSM, but you could express it with a combination of the 2 tags motorcar plus motorcycle. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] parking spaces limited to cars (no busses, trucks, etc.)
Am 30.04.2011 um 16:51 schrieb David Murn: On Sat, 2011-04-30 at 15:10 +0200, Stefan Bethke wrote: Am 30.04.2011 um 12:10 schrieb M∡rtin Koppenhoefer: 2011/4/29 Stefan Bethke s...@lassitu.de: It appears that people have been using car as a key for this purpose. Should I use that, and add an appropriate entry below motorcar=*? -1 IMHO motorcar should be defined as automobile/car, and not be used as a generic term including busses, hgv, goods and other. If we had car and motorcar parallelly this would create a lot of confusion. Then what would a proper classification look like? According to tagstat: Tag Usage vehicle 22618 motor_vehicle 42743 motorcar 209720 car 1475 bus 42842 hgv 45609 goods 16948 To properly represent German law (sign 251 cars and other multiple tracked vehicles not allowed) we need a tag for all two-tracked vehicles (currently motorcar), plus we need tag specifically for just cars. Maybe the alternative is to instead tag that its only suitable for single-tracked vehicles (ie. access=no motorbike=yes) rather than trying to figure out what isnt allowed? From how I read the discussion that seems to be the problem? My concrete problem is a parking lot that only cars are allowed to use, but not trucks nor busses (technically, parking is allowed for two track vehicles with no trailers, not exceeding a gross mass of 3.5 tonnes). Reading the Key:access page, I did not find a way to express that, as it appears that there is no tag specifically for cars, only for all other kinds of vehicles. I believe that certain roads and parking spaces all over the place are regularly limited to cars as opposed to trucks, etc. so it would be great if a tag could be found with which to express only cars. Stefan -- Stefan Bethke s...@lassitu.de Fon +49 151 14070811 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] parking spaces limited to cars (no busses, trucks, etc.)
On 4/30/2011 6:56 PM, Stefan Bethke wrote: My concrete problem is a parking lot that only cars are allowed to use, but not trucks nor busses (technically, parking is allowed for two track vehicles with no trailers, not exceeding a gross mass of 3.5 tonnes). Reading the Key:access page, I did not find a way to express that, as it appears that there is no tag specifically for cars, only for all other kinds of vehicles. I believe that certain roads and parking spaces all over the place are regularly limited to cars as opposed to trucks, etc. so it would be great if a tag could be found with which to express only cars. But are sub-cars allowed to use it? Can you park a motorcycle there? Can you park eight bikes there? http://commuteorlando.com/wordpress/2011/03/04/8-customers-per-parking-space/ Sounds like you want something like bus=no hgv=no. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] parking spaces limited to cars (no busses, trucks, etc.)
On Sat, 2011-04-30 at 17:08 +0200, Sebastian Hohmann wrote: But don't forget bicycle=yes, foot=yes, horse=yes, skating=yes, dog=yes, ... But is bicycle/horse/skate/dog parking allowed? This is a discussion of how to tag limited access to parking, in which case you dont need to say what IS allowed to park there, only need to say what ISNT allowed to park there. (ie. anything okay except for hgv/psv). David ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] parking spaces limited to cars (no busses, trucks, etc.)
Am 01.05.2011 um 01:27 schrieb David Murn: On Sun, 2011-05-01 at 00:56 +0200, Stefan Bethke wrote: Maybe the alternative is to instead tag that its only suitable for single-tracked vehicles (ie. access=no motorbike=yes) rather than trying to figure out what isnt allowed? From how I read the discussion that seems to be the problem? My concrete problem is a parking lot that only cars are allowed to use, but not trucks nor busses (technically, parking is allowed for two track vehicles with no trailers, not exceeding a gross mass of 3.5 tonnes). A simple tag would be hgv, which I think technically means a gross mass exceeding 4.5, but close enough. You dont have to tag every possible access option, if you have hgv=no then its pretty obvious that access is forbidden for heavy vehicles. Im fairly sure hgv also includes buses, although you can use psv for buses if you want it explicitly. hgv=no might or might not be understood to include busses, but it certainly would not imply cars with a trailer, or small caravans. The logic described in the Wiki for the access tags specifically allows for the general=no, specific=yes combination, so I'd prefer to find a tag that specifically describes cars. Why do we have a tag for every kind of large or small vehicle, but not one for a regular car? I certainly do not insist on creating tags that exactly mirror the German legal taxonomy, but being able to distiguish cars from other vehicles must be useful elsewhere? Stefan -- Stefan Bethke s...@lassitu.de Fon +49 151 14070811 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] parking spaces limited to cars (no busses, trucks, etc.)
On Sun, 2011-05-01 at 02:10 +0200, Stefan Bethke wrote: hgv=no might or might not be understood to include busses, but it certainly would not imply cars with a trailer, or small caravans. If I was towing a caravan, I wouldnt set my navigation device to think Im in a car or a motorbike, Id most probably use hgv. You could say the same that just because motorbike=yes it there, that wouldnt also include side-cars and 3-wheeled trikes, those vehicles should be setting up their navigation as if they were a car. The logic described in the Wiki for the access tags specifically allows for the general=no, specific=yes combination, so I'd prefer to find a tag that specifically describes cars. Why do we have a tag for every kind of large or small vehicle, but not one for a regular car? So, is the parking youre tagging, exclusively for cars? Are motorbikes/trikes/sidecars not allowed to park there? I certainly do not insist on creating tags that exactly mirror the German legal taxonomy, but being able to distiguish cars from other vehicles must be useful elsewhere? Not being able to distinguish cars from other vehicles is a little different to tagging no big-things allowed. I agree there needs to be clarification of the car/bus/motorbike tags, but the general idea of access=yes bus/hgv=no I think fits your situation appropriately. Maybe even a motorbike=no if the carpark really is exclusively for cars. David ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] parking spaces limited to cars (no busses, trucks, etc.)
Am 29.04.2011 um 22:18 schrieb Stefan Bethke: Trying to decypher the hierarchy of vehicles on the Key:access page, I cannot find a key that would allow me to tag a amenity=parking area as access=no, XXX=yes; where XXX would indicate access by regular cars as opposed to heavier or larger vehicles like busses, trucks and the like. It appears that people have been using car as a key for this purpose. Should I use that, and add an appropriate entry below motorcar=*? Forgot the link, according to tagstat: http://tagstat.hypercube.telascience.org/tagdetails.php?tag=car -- Stefan Bethke s...@lassitu.de Fon +49 151 14070811 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
