Re: [Tagging] sport=shooting_range vs sport=shooting + leisure=pitch

[Brian M. Sperlongano]

I agree with this interpretation.  sport=* should always be secondary to
some physical feature that is a location in some way related to the sport
(where it is played, where you can get lessons, a shop, etc).

On Sun, Dec 20, 2020 at 6:32 PM Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> On 20. Dec 2020, at 22:45, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Some examples;
>
> sportbowlsA place where you can play lawn bowls/lawn bowling.
>
> sportkitesurfingTo mark a spot for kitesurfing
>
> sportmultiA sports facility that is suitable for more than one
> sport
>
> sportracquetRacquetball facilities, such as racquetball courts
>
> sportscuba_divingTo mark a spot for scuba diving
>
> sportsurfingA spot for surfing.
>
>
>
> These do not describe the 'sport'/activity but state it is a
> 'place'/'spot' i.e. a physical thing.
>
>
>
> these descriptions are misguided and should be fixed. The tag “sport” is
> about a sport, it is a property, and unlike the wiki says, its presence
> does not even tell in every case that you can exercise the sport at an
> object with this tag. E.g.
> shop=sports
> sport=surfing
>
> The wiki is explicit: “ A sport should normally also be associated with a
> suitable physical feature where it is performed; often this is leisure
> =pitch
>  or leisure
> =trac
> 
>
>
> Cheers Martin
>
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Re: [Tagging] sport=shooting_range vs sport=shooting + leisure=pitch

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Mon, 21 Dec 2020 at 09:32, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

> its presence does not even tell in every case that you can exercise the
> sport at an object with this tag. E.g.
> shop=sports
> sport=surfing
>

What would you suggest then for a shop that sells surfboards eg
https://www.google.com.au/maps/@-28.0770975,153.4431424,3a,75y,168.57h,84.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sw8FwnxP0v8kJgGpiKtZTFQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en

The wiki is explicit: “ A sport should normally also be associated with a
> suitable physical feature where it is performed; often this is leisure
> =pitch
>  or leisure
> =trac
> 
>

So that would suggest amenity=shooting_range would be a good choice?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] sport=shooting_range vs sport=shooting + leisure=pitch

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 20. Dec 2020, at 22:45, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Some examples;
> 
> sportbowlsA place where you can play lawn bowls/lawn bowling.
> 
> sportkitesurfingTo mark a spot for kitesurfing
> 
> sportmultiA sports facility that is suitable for more than one 
> sport
> 
> sportracquetRacquetball facilities, such as racquetball courts
> 
> sportscuba_divingTo mark a spot for scuba diving
> 
> sportsurfingA spot for surfing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These do not describe the 'sport'/activity but state it is a 'place'/'spot' 
> i.e. a physical thing.
> 


these descriptions are misguided and should be fixed. The tag “sport” is about 
a sport, it is a property, and unlike the wiki says, its presence does not even 
tell in every case that you can exercise the sport at an object with this tag. 
E.g.
shop=sports
sport=surfing

The wiki is explicit: “ A sport should normally also be associated with a 
suitable physical feature where it is performed; often this is leisure=pitch or 
leisure=trac


Cheers Martin 

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Re: [Tagging] sport=shooting_range vs sport=shooting + leisure=pitch

[Warin]

On 20/12/20 6:32 pm, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging wrote:




Dec 20, 2020, 00:01 by 61sundow...@gmail.com:

On 20/12/20 6:45 am, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging wrote:

Is there some good use for sport=shooting_range?

Or is it always preferable to use sport=shooting + leisure=pitch?

This is a request to review this edit

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag%3Asport%3Dshooting_range=revision=2074293=125712
that ended creating
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sport%3Dshooting_range


The sport key should be used to indicate the activity .. not the
physical existence. Despite what the OSMwiki says though various
edits.

Where OSM Wiki claims that sport key alone indicates physical 
existence of something?
As far as I know it only describes that it specifies type/purpose of 
something like

leisure=pitch.



Look at the descriptions on https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:sport


Some examples;

sport    bowls        A place where you can play lawn bowls/lawn bowling.

sport    kitesurfing        To mark a spot for kitesurfing

sport    multi        A sports facility that is suitable for more than 
one sport


sport    racquet        Racquetball facilities, such as racquetball courts

sport    scuba_diving        To mark a spot for scuba diving

sport    surfing        A spot for surfing.



These do not describe the 'sport'/activity but state it is a 
'place'/'spot' i.e. a physical thing.


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Re: [Tagging] sport=shooting_range vs sport=shooting + leisure=pitch

[Brian M. Sperlongano]

Note that the shooting_range hazard is specifically about the zone in and
around a shooting range that you should avoid if you don't want to
accidentally encounter a stray bullet (the area of the hazard) rather than
as a tag for a shooting range itself.

On Sun, Dec 20, 2020 at 3:30 PM Jmapb  wrote:

> On 12/19/2020 5:16 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> > I agree with this, there’s a lot of abuse for “pitch”, and these are
> > not arguments for continuing the line, it’s never too late to learn
> > from past errors ;-)
> >
> > leisure=shooting_range might make sense? There are also 4000
> > military=range (is this about shooting? bombing? )
>
> I've been using leisure=sports_centre + sport=shooting for these,
> possibly combined with a building tag for an indoor range. Makes more
> sense to me to giving them a top-level leisure tag unlike all other sports.
>
> The value "shooting_range" is currently in use for the "hazard" key,
> though, and is part of the hazard=* proposal which is currently being
> voted in with flying colors. (
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/hazard )
>
> J
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] sport=shooting_range vs sport=shooting + leisure=pitch

[Jmapb]

On 12/19/2020 5:16 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

I agree with this, there’s a lot of abuse for “pitch”, and these are
not arguments for continuing the line, it’s never too late to learn
from past errors ;-)

leisure=shooting_range might make sense? There are also 4000
military=range (is this about shooting? bombing? )


I've been using leisure=sports_centre + sport=shooting for these,
possibly combined with a building tag for an indoor range. Makes more
sense to me to giving them a top-level leisure tag unlike all other sports.

The value "shooting_range" is currently in use for the "hazard" key,
though, and is part of the hazard=* proposal which is currently being
voted in with flying colors. (
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/hazard )

J


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Re: [Tagging] sport=shooting_range vs sport=shooting + leisure=pitch

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

Dec 20, 2020, 00:01 by 61sundow...@gmail.com:

> On 20/12/20 6:45 am, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging wrote:
>
>> Is there some good use for sport=shooting_range?
>>
>> Or is it always preferable to use sport=shooting + leisure=pitch?
>>
>> This is a request to review this edit
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag%3Asport%3Dshooting_range=revision=2074293=125712
>> that ended creating 
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sport%3Dshooting_range
>>
>
> The sport key should be used to indicate the activity .. not the physical 
> existence. Despite what the OSMwiki says though various edits.
>
Where OSM Wiki claims that sport key alone indicates physical existence of 
something?
As far as I know it only describes that it specifies type/purpose of something 
like
leisure=pitch.

> The physical presence is give by some other key, such as 
> landuse=recreation_ground, pitch, etc...
>
>

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Re: [Tagging] sport=shooting_range vs sport=shooting + leisure=pitch

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sun, 20 Dec 2020 at 09:44, Brian M. Sperlongano 
wrote:

> for a price:
>

You're not wrong!

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] sport=shooting_range vs sport=shooting + leisure=pitch

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sun, 20 Dec 2020 at 09:26, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> I have seen some shooting=range but the tag does not make too much sense
> for tagging a shooting range facility.
>

Yes, it does actually, because shooters go to a range to shoot.

We have sport=shooting and the physical nature of the place usually would
> go in a leisure tag, maybe sometimes amenity, man_made or natural.
>

As above, possibly amenity=shooting_range?

I would see more consistency in shooting=* describing the kind of shooting
> rather than the place, e.g. shooting=rifle / pistol / archery or maybe
> biathlon.
>

Together with shooting_range=pistol / rifle / etc?

shooting=range could still be ok, if this is intended to describe the kind
> of shooting, and “range shooting” is a suitable category (e.g. for a sports
> club
>

Possibly "target shooting" would be a better option, as you shoot at
targets located on the range, not at the range itself, which is just open
ground, usually with a mound of dirt at one end.


> , e.g. as opposed to clay pigeon shooting,
>

However, clay pigeon shooting also takes place on a range!

& yes, another topic which I know quite a bit about! :-)

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] sport=shooting_range vs sport=shooting + leisure=pitch

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 20. Dec 2020, at 00:44, Brian M. Sperlongano  wrote:
> 
> These guys in Texas will let you drive their tank around and shoot things, 
> for a price:
> 
> https://www.oxhuntingranch.com/activities/hunting-shooting/machine-gun-shooting/


they actually mention “ mortars, artillery”

IMHO these could merit an extra tag, eventually, I’m not likely to come into 
the situation of mapping these, so I’ll refrain from detailing more advanced 
tagging in this case...

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Re: [Tagging] sport=shooting_range vs sport=shooting + leisure=pitch

[Brian M. Sperlongano]

These guys in Texas will let you drive their tank around and shoot things,
for a price:

https://www.oxhuntingranch.com/activities/hunting-shooting/machine-gun-shooting/



On Sat, Dec 19, 2020 at 6:16 PM Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 19. Dec 2020, at 23:59, Jeremy Harris  wrote:
> >
> > I think rifle-shooting was a component of a triathlon in a recent
> > Winter Olympic, too.
>
>
>
> if rifles are „ordnance“ my perplexity dissolves, I did not know the word
> ordnance and looking it up referred me to artillery. I bet you refer to
> biathlon rather than triathlon though ;-)
>
> Cheers Martin
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] sport=shooting_range vs sport=shooting + leisure=pitch

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 20. Dec 2020, at 00:02, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
> 
> Another comment suggested =recreation_ground for the whole area (car parks, 
> buildings etc) with shooting=range for the actual area that bullets are 
> flying over.


I have seen some shooting=range but the tag does not make too much sense for 
tagging a shooting range facility.

We have sport=shooting and the physical nature of the place usually would go in 
a leisure tag, maybe sometimes amenity, man_made or natural.
I would see more consistency in shooting=* describing the kind of shooting 
rather than the place, e.g. shooting=rifle / pistol / archery or maybe 
biathlon. These are also already present, have a look:

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/shooting#values

shooting=range could still be ok, if this is intended to describe the kind of 
shooting, and “range shooting” is a suitable category (e.g. for a sports club, 
e.g. as opposed to clay pigeon shooting, or hunting etc.), but not as a tag for 
a shooting range.

Cheers Martin 


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Re: [Tagging] sport=shooting_range vs sport=shooting + leisure=pitch

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 19. Dec 2020, at 23:59, Jeremy Harris  wrote:
> 
> I think rifle-shooting was a component of a triathlon in a recent
> Winter Olympic, too.



if rifles are „ordnance“ my perplexity dissolves, I did not know the word 
ordnance and looking it up referred me to artillery. I bet you refer to 
biathlon rather than triathlon though ;-)

Cheers Martin 



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Re: [Tagging] sport=shooting_range vs sport=shooting + leisure=pitch

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sun, 20 Dec 2020 at 08:59, Jeremy Harris  wrote:

>
> I think rifle-shooting was a component of a triathlon in a recent
> Winter Olympic, too.
>

Winter Olympics has the Biathlon - cross-country skiing & very accurate
shooting, while the Summer Olympics has several different shooting events
including the Decathlon - running, swimming, various other athletics plus
pistol shooting!

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] sport=shooting_range vs sport=shooting + leisure=pitch

[Warin]

On 20/12/20 6:45 am, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging wrote:

Is there some good use for sport=shooting_range?

Or is it always preferable to use sport=shooting + leisure=pitch?

This is a request to review this edit
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag%3Asport%3Dshooting_range=revision=2074293=125712
that ended creating 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sport%3Dshooting_range





The sport key should be used to indicate the activity .. not the 
physical existence. Despite what the OSMwiki says though various edits.


The physical presence is give by some other key, such as 
landuse=recreation_ground, pitch, etc...



-

Tangents.

Sports?

Just as skiing can be either snow or water .. shooting by some can be 
taken as bow and arrow or guns ...



Pitches?

While 'pitch' is good for many playing fields it doe not suit so well 
for some e.g. darts, table tennis, chess.



Leisure?

As some have pointed out some sports are played for money .. and some 
for both leisure and money. It would be good to move away from the 
leisure key to the landuse key .. non specific as to leisure or 
'professional'. Yes it could create overlap of various landuses .. 
nothing new there though.





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Re: [Tagging] sport=shooting_range vs sport=shooting + leisure=pitch

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sun, 20 Dec 2020 at 08:48, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> The leisure key is generally silly, because we assign these tags also to
> sports facilities for professional sports people, but for shooting ranges
> it seems even less appropriate to add them under leisure when the operator
> is the military, a pmc or the police, not to speak of bombing ranges.
>

There was a suggestion on one of the "shooting" talk pages of making it
amenity=shooting_range, due to this exact reason - they're often used for
training by police, security & people interested in home defence, rather
than just as a leisure pastime.

Another issue is how to map them?

Another comment suggested =recreation_ground for the whole area (car parks,
buildings etc) with shooting=range for the actual area that bullets are
flying over.

However, I have seen photos of at least one rifle range in Switzerland,
that has the firing point on one side of a valley, wit the targets on the
other side, & a highway running along the valley floor, 50 m below!

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] sport=shooting_range vs sport=shooting + leisure=pitch

[Jeremy Harris]

On 19/12/2020 22:46, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

is firing ordnance a leisure activity somewhere? Or a sport? leisure=range 
makes me think about golf driving ranges, but there’s already 
golf=driving_range for it.


Certainly.  Clay-pigeon shooting, for one subtype, as an example.

I think rifle-shooting was a component of a triathlon in a recent
Winter Olympic, too.
--
Cheers,
  Jeremy

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Re: [Tagging] sport=shooting_range vs sport=shooting + leisure=pitch

[Brian M. Sperlongano]

>
> is firing ordnance a leisure activity somewhere? Or a sport?


Hello, let me introduce to you the United States of America.
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Re: [Tagging] sport=shooting_range vs sport=shooting + leisure=pitch

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 19. Dec 2020, at 23:29, Brian M. Sperlongano  wrote:
> 
> Perhaps simply leisure=range, as this would be generic to any type of 
> facility where one might fire projectiles or ordnance. 


is firing ordnance a leisure activity somewhere? Or a sport? leisure=range 
makes me think about golf driving ranges, but there’s already 
golf=driving_range for it.

The leisure key is generally silly, because we assign these tags also to sports 
facilities for professional sports people, but for shooting ranges it seems 
even less appropriate to add them under leisure when the operator is the 
military, a pmc or the police, not to speak of bombing ranges.

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] sport=shooting_range vs sport=shooting + leisure=pitch

[Brian M. Sperlongano]

Perhaps simply leisure=range, as this would be generic to any type of
facility where one might fire projectiles or ordnance.  You could then
extend that with something like range= to specify what is being fired,
and/or the existing sport= key if it's considered a shooting sport.

On Sat, Dec 19, 2020 at 5:18 PM Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> On 19. Dec 2020, at 21:35, Paul Allen  wrote:
>
> Or is it always preferable to use sport=shooting + leisure=pitch?
>>
>
> That's an improvement.  Not ideal, because it's practised at a
> range, not on a pitch.  Just because we have other sports that
> have been shoe-horned into leisure=pitch I don't see a good
> reason to continue making that error.
>
>
>
> I agree with this, there’s a lot of abuse for “pitch”, and these are not
> arguments for continuing the line, it’s never too late to learn from past
> errors ;-)
>
> leisure=shooting_range might make sense? There are also 4000
> military=range (is this about shooting? bombing? )
>
> Cheers Martin
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Re: [Tagging] sport=shooting_range vs sport=shooting + leisure=pitch

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 19. Dec 2020, at 21:35, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
>> Or is it always preferable to use sport=shooting + leisure=pitch?
> 
> That's an improvement.  Not ideal, because it's practised at a
> range, not on a pitch.  Just because we have other sports that
> have been shoe-horned into leisure=pitch I don't see a good
> reason to continue making that error. 


I agree with this, there’s a lot of abuse for “pitch”, and these are not 
arguments for continuing the line, it’s never too late to learn from past 
errors ;-)

leisure=shooting_range might make sense? There are also 4000 military=range (is 
this about shooting? bombing? )

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Re: [Tagging] sport=shooting_range vs sport=shooting + leisure=pitch

[Alan Mackie]

On Sat, 19 Dec 2020, 15:49 Brian M. Sperlongano, 
wrote:

> I understand pitch to mean "a playing field" (as "pitch" is not often used
> in US English -- we would say "soccer field" for example.).  I don't know
> if a shooting range is a pitch or not, but it definitely isn't a playing
> field.
>
The wiki recommends leisure=pitch for archery which also seems ill advised.
If anything it might be considered a danger zone of some  kind.

I think we could do with a tag for these sorts of areas. It would probably
be best if it depreciated leisure=pitch for the areas where you would
expect a javelin, discus, "hammer" or shot put to land too. It may also be
an appropriate supplementary tag for driving ranges.

>
> On Sat, Dec 19, 2020 at 3:35 PM Paul Allen  wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 19 Dec 2020 at 19:47, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
>> tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Is there some good use for sport=shooting_range?
>>>
>>
>> Not in English as she is spoken.  "Shooting range" is not a sport.
>> "Shooting" is a sport.
>>
>>>
>>> Or is it always preferable to use sport=shooting + leisure=pitch?
>>>
>>
>> That's an improvement.  Not ideal, because it's practised at a
>> range, not on a pitch.  Just because we have other sports that
>> have been shoe-horned into leisure=pitch I don't see a good
>> reason to continue making that error.  A few bad ones,
>> but no good one.
>>
>> --
>> Paul
>>
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Re: [Tagging] sport=shooting_range vs sport=shooting + leisure=pitch

[Paul Allen]

On Sat, 19 Dec 2020 at 20:49, Brian M. Sperlongano 
wrote:

> I understand pitch to mean "a playing field" (as "pitch" is not often used
> in US English -- we would say "soccer field" for example.).
>

Pitch and field are almost synonyms.  A lot of overlap, some differences.


>   I don't know if a shooting range is a pitch or not, but it definitely
> isn't a playing field.
>

A shooting pitch or shooting field is wrong.  As is ice hockey pitch, ice
hockey
field, golf pitch, golf field, tennis pitch, and tennis field.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] sport=shooting_range vs sport=shooting + leisure=pitch

[Brian M. Sperlongano]

I understand pitch to mean "a playing field" (as "pitch" is not often used
in US English -- we would say "soccer field" for example.).  I don't know
if a shooting range is a pitch or not, but it definitely isn't a playing
field.

On Sat, Dec 19, 2020 at 3:35 PM Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Sat, 19 Dec 2020 at 19:47, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
> tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
>> Is there some good use for sport=shooting_range?
>>
>
> Not in English as she is spoken.  "Shooting range" is not a sport.
> "Shooting" is a sport.
>
>>
>> Or is it always preferable to use sport=shooting + leisure=pitch?
>>
>
> That's an improvement.  Not ideal, because it's practised at a
> range, not on a pitch.  Just because we have other sports that
> have been shoe-horned into leisure=pitch I don't see a good
> reason to continue making that error.  A few bad ones,
> but no good one.
>
> --
> Paul
>
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Re: [Tagging] sport=shooting_range vs sport=shooting + leisure=pitch

[Paul Allen]

On Sat, 19 Dec 2020 at 19:47, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> Is there some good use for sport=shooting_range?
>

Not in English as she is spoken.  "Shooting range" is not a sport.
"Shooting" is a sport.

>
> Or is it always preferable to use sport=shooting + leisure=pitch?
>

That's an improvement.  Not ideal, because it's practised at a
range, not on a pitch.  Just because we have other sports that
have been shoe-horned into leisure=pitch I don't see a good
reason to continue making that error.  A few bad ones,
but no good one.

-- 
Paul
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