Re: [GTALUG] Weird pivot from the Linux Foundation: Overture Maps Foundation

[Bob Jonkman via talk]

Stewart wrote:
Any OSM contributor can appeal any change in the map, and potentially have large data imports removed. (That's what happened with a community approved and Treasury Board of Canada supported countrywide import of buildings across Canada, btw. A mapper in Toronto didn't like that ‘his’ building outlines were going to be replaced, so raised enough of a stink that the whole project was abandoned.) 


That's happened to me. I mapped a complicated intersection, on foot, for 
a couple of hours, adding slip lanes, medians, road signs, and all the 
amenities. Then someone imported the CANVEC database for roads, and 
obliterated all the work I had done, replacing it with a simple four-way 
intersection.  I haven't contributed anything of significance since.


I haven't checked to see what other work of mine has been obliterated. 
My first experience with OSM was mapping all of Elmira by bike. JOSM has 
this neat feature where it adds photos to your track by matching the 
timestamps, so I took pictures of the roadsigns at every intersection to 
get accurate street names (and discovered some inconsistencies in 
signage in the process). Took days. I don't want to look, and find 
there's nothing left...


--Bob.


On 2022-12-18 14:58, Stewart C. Russell via talk wrote:
Looks like there's a bit more background from OSMF members here: 
Overturemaps.org - big-businesses OSMF alternative — 
https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/overturemaps-org-big-businesses-osmf-alternative/6760
(note that the poster SimonPoole in that thread is OSMF's legal counsel, 
or possibly former counsel. He's part of the OSM woodwork, and is the 
SME for data licensing)


It seems that the main actors in Overture were not happy with the 
rigorous way that data had to be vetted and approved by community before 
being allowed to be imported into OSM's database. Any OSM contributor 
can appeal any change in the map, and potentially have large data 
imports removed. (That's what happened with a community approved and 
Treasury Board of Canada supported countrywide import of buildings 
across Canada, btw. A mapper in Toronto didn't like that ‘his’ building 
outlines were going to be replaced, so raised enough of a stink that the 
whole project was abandoned.)


Overture does claim to add some features that OSM (by design) lacks: 3d 
support, routing and Points of Interest. OSM does have very large 
corporate users and contributors, but corporate users didn't like the 
democratic aspect, hence the fork to Overture.


Good luck to 'em. Let's hope they fare better than http://fosm.org/, a 
fork of the OSM database from mappers who didn't agree with the Great 
OSM Licence Change of 201x


  Stewart
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Re: [GTALUG] Weird pivot from the Linux Foundation: Overture Maps Foundation

[Stewart C. Russell via talk]

Looks like there's a bit more background from OSMF members here: 
Overturemaps.org - big-businesses OSMF alternative — 
https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/overturemaps-org-big-businesses-osmf-alternative/6760
(note that the poster SimonPoole in that thread is OSMF's legal counsel, 
or possibly former counsel. He's part of the OSM woodwork, and is the 
SME for data licensing)


It seems that the main actors in Overture were not happy with the 
rigorous way that data had to be vetted and approved by community before 
being allowed to be imported into OSM's database. Any OSM contributor 
can appeal any change in the map, and potentially have large data 
imports removed. (That's what happened with a community approved and 
Treasury Board of Canada supported countrywide import of buildings 
across Canada, btw. A mapper in Toronto didn't like that ‘his’ building 
outlines were going to be replaced, so raised enough of a stink that the 
whole project was abandoned.)


Overture does claim to add some features that OSM (by design) lacks: 3d 
support, routing and Points of Interest. OSM does have very large 
corporate users and contributors, but corporate users didn't like the 
democratic aspect, hence the fork to Overture.


Good luck to 'em. Let's hope they fare better than http://fosm.org/, a 
fork of the OSM database from mappers who didn't agree with the Great 
OSM Licence Change of 201x


 Stewart
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Re: [GTALUG] Weird pivot from the Linux Foundation: Overture Maps Foundation

[Dave Collier-Brown via talk]

What's odd is that Open Street Map has commercial licensees. I can see
multiple competing companies, but competing open source groups usually
is an indication of a problem...

--dave

On 12/16/22 15:34, BCLUG via talk wrote:

Stewart Russell via talk wrote on 2022-12-15 07:01:


Membership in the Overture foundation is also very costly: $3000
US/year to contribute, $3M US/year to be on the steering committee.


From the Ars story, that's cheap to these companies:


If Overture Maps succeeds, it could lower costs for everyone.
Overture member companies are expected to pay an annual membership
fee to the foundation, with members on the "Steering" tier paying $3
million per year and dedicating 20 engineers to the project (sign-ups
are currently open). That's nothing compared to what a big company
will pay for access to the Google Maps API. When Uber held its IPO in
2019, the company reportedly paid $58 million for Google Maps API
access over the previous three years, and that was mostly before the
Google Maps price hike. $3 million a year is a bargain compared to
that.



$3,000,000 *plus* 20 engineers - that kind of resources can get things
done.

Also, "Qualified Nonprofits / Government" tier of membership is $0:

https://overturemaps.org/become-a-member/


Also, a Polish "find a pharmacy with medicine I require" site was priced
out of Google Maps and investigated the alternatives (interesting
comparison images of different mapping products), and made this claim:


Some options we could reject quickly for various reasons.
OpenStreetMap is not supposed to be directly used by commercial sites


https://www.inderapotheke.de/blog/farewell-google-maps



So, I can see the case for Overture Maps if they compete with Google (or
can't afford them), and OSM licensing means OSM is unavailable.



The partners in Overture are not particularly well known for their
open-source friendliness.


Ars again:


The code to "help developers process and effectively use Overture map
data and the global entity reference system" will eventually be on
GitHub. Initially, the foundation aims to release "basic layers
including building, road, and administrative information," with later
plans to introduce "new layers such as places, routing or 3D building
data."


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Re: [GTALUG] Weird pivot from the Linux Foundation: Overture Maps Foundation

[BCLUG via talk]

Stewart Russell via talk wrote on 2022-12-15 07:01:

Membership in the Overture foundation is also very costly: $3000 
US/year to contribute, $3M US/year to be on the steering committee.


From the Ars story, that's cheap to these companies:

If Overture Maps succeeds, it could lower costs for everyone. 
Overture member companies are expected to pay an annual membership 
fee to the foundation, with members on the "Steering" tier paying $3 
million per year and dedicating 20 engineers to the project (sign-ups

are currently open). That's nothing compared to what a big company
will pay for access to the Google Maps API. When Uber held its IPO in
2019, the company reportedly paid $58 million for Google Maps API
access over the previous three years, and that was mostly before the
Google Maps price hike. $3 million a year is a bargain compared to
that.



$3,000,000 *plus* 20 engineers - that kind of resources can get things done.

Also, "Qualified Nonprofits / Government" tier of membership is $0:

https://overturemaps.org/become-a-member/


Also, a Polish "find a pharmacy with medicine I require" site was priced
out of Google Maps and investigated the alternatives (interesting
comparison images of different mapping products), and made this claim:

Some options we could reject quickly for various reasons. 
OpenStreetMap is not supposed to be directly used by commercial 
sites


https://www.inderapotheke.de/blog/farewell-google-maps



So, I can see the case for Overture Maps if they compete with Google (or
can't afford them), and OSM licensing means OSM is unavailable.


The partners in Overture are not particularly well known for their 
open-source friendliness.


Ars again:


The code to "help developers process and effectively use Overture map
data and the global entity reference system" will eventually be on
GitHub. Initially, the foundation aims to release "basic layers
including building, road, and administrative information," with later
plans to introduce "new layers such as places, routing or 3D building
data."


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Re: [GTALUG] Weird pivot from the Linux Foundation: Overture Maps Foundation

[BCLUG via talk]

Stewart Russell via talk wrote on 2022-12-15 07:01:

The Linux Foundation, a global nonprofit organization enabling 
innovation through open source, today announced the formation of the 
Overture Maps Foundation , a new 
collaborative effort to develop interoperable open map data as a 
shared asset that can strengthen mapping services worldwide.



The thing is, we already have a mature global map database with 
interoperable data and services: OpenStreetMap




It sounds like OSM data *structures* are the issue, and "Overture data
will be available for use by the OSM community..."

One of the Overture site FAQs asks about OpenStreetMap and its 
relationship to Overture: "Overture is a data-centric map project, 
not a community of individual map editors. Therefore, Overture is 
intended to be complementary to OSM. We combine OSM with other 
sources to produce new open map data sets. Overture data will be 
available for use by the OpenStreetMap community under compatible 
open data licenses. Overture members are encouraged to contribute to 
OSM directly."


It sounds like the Overture Foundation is unhappy with the 
OpenStreetMap data structure and wants to clean things up, saying, 
"Open map data can lack the structure needed to easily build map 
products. Overture will define and drive adoption of a common, 
well-structured, and documented data schema to create an easy-to-use 
ecosystem of map data."


As anticipated, Ars has a write-up about it:

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/12/linux-amazon-meta-and-microsoft-want-to-break-the-google-maps-monopoly/
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Re: [GTALUG] Weird pivot from the Linux Foundation: Overture Maps Foundation

[Dave Collier-Brown via talk]

On 12/15/22 14:59, Stewart Russell via talk wrote:
On Thu, Dec 15, 2022 at 12:28 PM Evan Leibovitch via talk 
mailto:talk@gtalug.org>> wrote:

From the FAQ:


Data contributed to ODbL licensed datasets will be contributed under both the 
ODbL and CDLA permissive v2. Contributions to CDLA permissive v2 datasets will 
be contributed under the CDLA permissive v2.

I don't know these licenses. Are they open enough such this project's data can 
be used by OSM?

ODbL is the licence used by OSM. Its background is more from European database copyright 
than open source. It's a share-alike licence with required attribution. CDLA I'd never 
heard of, but it seems like a "let's make the MIT license, but for data". Many 
VC-funded startups balk at the share-alike and attribution requirements of OSM, because 
they just want the free data and earn money from contributors' work.

This looks like Overture can consume OSM data, but OSM can't use Overture's 
data easily. What a surprise.

Stewart



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Re: [GTALUG] Weird pivot from the Linux Foundation: Overture Maps Foundation

[David Mason via talk]

I think this is actually much more positive than you think:

https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/CDLA_permissive_compatibility

CDLA Permissive 2 seems very open, and OSM seems to agree.

../Dave
On Dec 15, 2022 at 2:59 PM -0500, Stewart Russell via talk , 
wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 15, 2022 at 12:28 PM Evan Leibovitch via talk  
> wrote:
> > > From the FAQ:
> > >
> > > > Data contributed to ODbL licensed datasets will be contributed under 
> > > > both the ODbL and CDLA permissive v2. Contributions to CDLA permissive 
> > > > v2 datasets will be contributed under the CDLA permissive v2.
> > >
> > > I don't know these licenses. Are they open enough such this project's 
> > > data can be used by OSM?
>
> ODbL is the licence used by OSM. Its background is more from European 
> database copyright than open source. It's a share-alike licence with required 
> attribution. CDLA I'd never heard of, but it seems like a "let's make the MIT 
> license, but for data". Many VC-funded startups balk at the share-alike and 
> attribution requirements of OSM, because they just want the free data and 
> earn money from contributors' work.
>
> This looks like Overture can consume OSM data, but OSM can't use Overture's 
> data easily. What a surprise.
>
>  Stewart
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Re: [GTALUG] Weird pivot from the Linux Foundation: Overture Maps Foundation

[Stewart Russell via talk]

On Thu, Dec 15, 2022 at 12:28 PM Evan Leibovitch via talk 
wrote:

> From the FAQ:
>
> Data contributed to ODbL licensed datasets will be contributed under both
>> the ODbL and CDLA permissive v2. Contributions to CDLA permissive v2
>> datasets will be contributed under the CDLA permissive v2.
>>
>
> I don't know these licenses. Are they open enough such this project's data
> can be used by OSM?
>

ODbL is the licence used by OSM. Its background is more from European
database copyright than open source. It's a share-alike licence with
required attribution. CDLA I'd never heard of, but it seems like a "let's
make the MIT license, but for data". Many VC-funded startups balk at the
share-alike and attribution requirements of OSM, because they just want the
free data and earn money from contributors' work.

This looks like Overture can consume OSM data, but OSM can't use Overture's
data easily. What a surprise.

 Stewart
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Re: [GTALUG] Weird pivot from the Linux Foundation: Overture Maps Foundation

[Dave Collier-Brown via talk]

On 12/15/22 12:14, Kevin Cozens via talk wrote:

On 2022-12-15 10:01, Stewart Russell via talk wrote:

announced the formation of the Overture Maps Foundation
, a new collaborative effort to develop
interoperable open map data

[snip]>  The thing is, we already have a mature global map database with

interoperable data and services: OpenStreetMap


The founding members of the organization probably couldn't think of
how they could monetize OSM so they needed to create their own system.
You can get a good idea that it is probably about having another
revenue stream when you read about how much money they want so you can
contribute or be on the committee. It is fairly safe to say there will
be another "standard" generated for the map data that will not be
directly compatible with any existing map system.


Hmmn, that sounds a bit like Linux Foundation has suffered "regulatory
capture".

Unless they're astroturf to begin with (:-()

--dave


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System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
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Re: [GTALUG] Weird pivot from the Linux Foundation: Overture Maps Foundation

[Evan Leibovitch via talk]

>From the FAQ:

Data contributed to ODbL licensed datasets will be contributed under both
> the ODbL and CDLA permissive v2. Contributions to CDLA permissive v2
> datasets will be contributed under the CDLA permissive v2.
>

I don't know these licenses. Are they open enough such this project's data
can be used by OSM?


Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada
@evanleibovitch / @el56


On Thu, Dec 15, 2022 at 12:15 PM Kevin Cozens via talk 
wrote:

> On 2022-12-15 10:01, Stewart Russell via talk wrote:
> > announced the formation of the Overture Maps Foundation
> > , a new collaborative effort to develop
> > interoperable open map data
> [snip]>  The thing is, we already have a mature global map database with
> > interoperable data and services: OpenStreetMap
>
> The founding members of the organization probably couldn't think of how
> they
> could monetize OSM so they needed to create their own system. You can get
> a
> good idea that it is probably about having another revenue stream when you
> read about how much money they want so you can contribute or be on the
> committee. It is fairly safe to say there will be another "standard"
> generated for the map data that will not be directly compatible with any
> existing map system.
>
> --
> Cheers!
>
> Kevin.
>
> http://www.ve3syb.ca/   | "Nerds make the shiny things that
> https://www.patreon.com/KevinCozens | distract the mouth-breathers, and
>  | that's why we're powerful"
> Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172  |
> #include  | --Chris Hardwick
>
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Re: [GTALUG] Weird pivot from the Linux Foundation: Overture Maps Foundation

[Kevin Cozens via talk]

On 2022-12-15 10:01, Stewart Russell via talk wrote:

announced the formation of the Overture Maps Foundation
, a new collaborative effort to develop
interoperable open map data

[snip]>  The thing is, we already have a mature global map database with

interoperable data and services: OpenStreetMap


The founding members of the organization probably couldn't think of how they 
could monetize OSM so they needed to create their own system. You can get a 
good idea that it is probably about having another revenue stream when you 
read about how much money they want so you can contribute or be on the 
committee. It is fairly safe to say there will be another "standard" 
generated for the map data that will not be directly compatible with any 
existing map system.


--
Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/   | "Nerds make the shiny things that
https://www.patreon.com/KevinCozens | distract the mouth-breathers, and
| that's why we're powerful"
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172  |
#include  | --Chris Hardwick

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Re: [GTALUG] Weird pivot from the Linux Foundation: Overture Maps Foundation

[Evan Leibovitch via talk]

They compete with LPI, and we're a member.
No surprises here.

Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada
@evanleibovitch / @el56


On Thu, Dec 15, 2022 at 11:16 AM Dave Collier-Brown via talk <
talk@gtalug.org> wrote:

> That seems odd: OSM is used legally in Garmin products, as per
> https://support.garmin.com/en-CA/?faq=mSWyDE91q874qY0e9JkL1A
>
> It sounds like AWS and friends are starting up a commerce-friendly service
> and trying to suck people in...
>
> --dave
>
>
> On 12/15/22 10:01, Stewart Russell via talk wrote:
>
> I was surprised and disappointed to read this today:
>
> The Linux Foundation, a global nonprofit organization enabling innovation
> through open source, today announced the formation of the Overture Maps
> Foundation , a new collaborative effort to
> develop interoperable open map data as a shared asset that can strengthen
> mapping services worldwide. The initiative was founded by Amazon Web
> Services (AWS), Meta, Microsoft, and TomTom and is open to all communities
> with a common interest in building open map data.
> —
> https://www.linuxfoundation.org/press/linux-foundation-announces-overture-maps-foundation-to-build-interoperable-open-map-data
>
> The thing is, we already have a mature global map database with
> interoperable data and services: OpenStreetMap —
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/ . OSM is managed by the democratic
> OpenStreetMap Foundation. The partners in Overture are not particularly
> well known for their open-source friendliness. Membership in the Overture
> foundation is also very costly: $3000 US/year to contribute, $3M US/year to
> be on the steering committee.
>
> I know that the Linux Foundation is hyper-corporate, but to try to compete
> with OSM is mystifying.
>
>  Stewart
>
>
>
> ---
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>
> --
> David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify
> System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the 
> restdave.collier-br...@indexexchange.com |  -- Mark Twain
>
>
> *CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER** : This telecommunication,
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Re: [GTALUG] Weird pivot from the Linux Foundation: Overture Maps Foundation

[Dave Collier-Brown via talk]

That seems odd: OSM is used legally in Garmin products, as per 
https://support.garmin.com/en-CA/?faq=mSWyDE91q874qY0e9JkL1A

It sounds like AWS and friends are starting up a commerce-friendly service and 
trying to suck people in...

--dave



On 12/15/22 10:01, Stewart Russell via talk wrote:
I was surprised and disappointed to read this today:

The Linux Foundation, a global nonprofit organization enabling innovation through 
open source, today announced the formation of the Overture Maps 
Foundation, a new collaborative effort to develop 
interoperable open map data as a shared asset that can strengthen mapping services 
worldwide. The initiative was founded by Amazon Web Services (AWS), Meta, Microsoft, 
and TomTom and is open to all communities with a common interest in building open map 
data.
— 
https://www.linuxfoundation.org/press/linux-foundation-announces-overture-maps-foundation-to-build-interoperable-open-map-data

The thing is, we already have a mature global map database with interoperable 
data and services: OpenStreetMap — https://www.openstreetmap.org/ . OSM is 
managed by the democratic OpenStreetMap Foundation. The partners in Overture 
are not particularly well known for their open-source friendliness. Membership 
in the Overture foundation is also very costly: $3000 US/year to contribute, 
$3M US/year to be on the steering committee.

I know that the Linux Foundation is hyper-corporate, but to try to compete with 
OSM is mystifying.

Stewart





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