RE: Screen Reader compatible Keyboards. Was: Re: speaking of Dell computers...
Hi Rod: Unless you need me to beta test prior to posting to the AI2 site I would rather not. My current setup works and I don't like to fix something if it isnt broken. But if you want me to test the script prior to going into production I will give it a spin. Rick USA ___ Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. For membership options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/archive%40mail-archive.com. For subscription options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com List archives can be found at http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com
RE: Screen Reader compatible Keyboards. Was: Re: speaking of Dell computers...
Hi David and everyone, While I certainly appreciate reading this thread, and clearly there is a lot of energy on this matter of keyboards and their use with screen readers, I would like to say that there is no need for any serious concern about losing the functionality of the Numpad and therefore the functionality of Window-Eyes. This is because any function currently assigned to the Numpad keys can be assigned to other key combinations in the WE control panel. Also, regarding keyboards which happen to include a Numpad and yet do not include a NumLock key, I would guess that if the manufacturer was simply providing the Numpad to make numeric input easier, that manufacturer probably didn't make those keys unique in the codes they pass on to Windows when pressed. In other words, taking the number 5 on the Numpad as an example, my guess is that it would send the same key code to Windows as woudd be sent to Windows by pressing the number 5 on the Qwerty area of the keyboard; therefore, there would be no uniqueness about the Numpad numbers, and also there would be no alternate functions on the Numpad number keys, that is, that uniqueness we're used to when we turn NumLock off. In short, we will need to get used to the idea that we are going to have to use whatever keys are available to get our screen reader tasks completed, and perhaps we'll have to use more key combinations like Control-Shift-T, which we're all used to anyway. In truth, as long as we have keyboards which work at all, we'll be able to control Window-Eyes. Smile All the best, Rod -Original Message- From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+rod_hutton=hotmail@lists.window-eyes.com] On Behalf Of David via Talk Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2015 1:26 PM To: Rick Thomas; Window-Eyes Discussion List; 'Stephen Clark' Subject: Screen Reader compatible Keyboards. Was: Re: speaking of Dell computers... Rick and the rest, This discussion, altogether reminds me the one that every now and than, has popped up around USB NumPads. Rick, how much we would love a list provided, for all keyboards on the market, and their compatibility, it will never work. I am going to deal with but a couple of reasons, some of them likely brand new to some of you. First of all, it is true, some keyboards need hardware specific drivers. Even Microsoft has a line of keyboards, which will need drivers, particularly designed for the keyboard to work fully. In some cases, the driver has a menu, or some sort of a control panel, to setup the exact behavior. For instance, my one Microsoft keyboard here, comes with a set of Quick keys, for launching your favorite net browser, your standard Email client, your desirable music player and so forth. Trouble is, the control panel provided by the driver, simply is useless with a screen reader, due to a totally graphical interface. Another Microsoft keyboard I have, is somehow doable to program, since the control panel for setting it up, is partially labelled with text on the screen.In both cases, should you decide you don't want to change the quick keys and their standard (default) behavior, you can run both these keyboards as plug-and-play. Plug them in, and enjoy the standard features, including an app-key, a numlock key, and standard behavior of the numeric keypad. My one Logitech keyboard, does not have a right-hand windows key, but does have an application key. My one Dell laptop has no app-key, no right windows key, but has an FN-key. The wireless keyboard I am on at this instance, has an app-key, a numlock-key, but has no Ctrl-key on the right hand, only on the left - which cause certain keystrokes no longer possible as one-handed strokes. What puzzles, is that all these keyboards are told - from the manufacturer and advertisers - to be standard keyboards. Might be worth to notice, that a desktop keyboard is considered standard, when it has anything between 101 and 105 keys, and that is except from quick-keys and multimedia keys. My point here is, that there is a literal jungle of manufacturers, and it would be hard to determine if each and everyone of them keeps to a full standard. Even one and same manufacturer may have different keyboards, often with more or less identical names and model numbers. As already described above, my two Microsoft keyboards, are somehow different in accessibility. And the history of some other users, buying three different Dell keyboards, before they landed on one that could do, will tell the same point quite well. A list of functional keyboards, should it take into consideration only the hardware, leaving the driver, control panel or other software for the keyboard out of the story? I did ask the local dealer of WE here, as well as the former GW staff, why they did not sell USB NumPads, which would have greatly increased the functionality of laptops. The answer I got both places, may well enough apply in the case of why they don't sell full keyboards either
RE: Screen Reader compatible Keyboards. Was: Re: speaking of Dell computers...
No actually the num-pad five sends a completely different code then number 5 on the intermedia pad. This is how programs like winamp know if you have issued a number 5 on the num-pad or not. That being said keyboard codes are keyboard codes and they don't change from device to device. They don't even change from operating system to operating system. Wether or not the operating system supports the codes is the question. For example IOS does not support the codes from the numpad and so they are completely ignored. There is no need for any list or anything like that. If you are missing keys redefining another key that you are not using is quite simple and a good salution to the problem. Another salution to the problem in the case of the num-lock is a utility that will turn it on or off. This utility could be placed in the startup section of your operating system and would set the state of num-lock. This quite frankly is much to do about nothing. It has been a problem that has been with us for years as I have already outlined and the work arounds for it are well know and understood. Hth -Original Message- From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+jgrimsby=roadrunner@lists.window-eyes.com] On Behalf Of Rod Hutton via Talk Sent: Monday, April 27, 2015 3:43 AM To: 'David'; 'Window-Eyes Discussion List' Subject: RE: Screen Reader compatible Keyboards. Was: Re: speaking of Dell computers... Hi David and everyone, While I certainly appreciate reading this thread, and clearly there is a lot of energy on this matter of keyboards and their use with screen readers, I would like to say that there is no need for any serious concern about losing the functionality of the Numpad and therefore the functionality of Window-Eyes. This is because any function currently assigned to the Numpad keys can be assigned to other key combinations in the WE control panel. Also, regarding keyboards which happen to include a Numpad and yet do not include a NumLock key, I would guess that if the manufacturer was simply providing the Numpad to make numeric input easier, that manufacturer probably didn't make those keys unique in the codes they pass on to Windows when pressed. In other words, taking the number 5 on the Numpad as an example, my guess is that it would send the same key code to Windows as woudd be sent to Windows by pressing the number 5 on the Qwerty area of the keyboard; therefore, there would be no uniqueness about the Numpad numbers, and also there would be no alternate functions on the Numpad number keys, that is, that uniqueness we're used to when we turn NumLock off. In short, we will need to get used to the idea that we are going to have to use whatever keys are available to get our screen reader tasks completed, and perhaps we'll have to use more key combinations like Control-Shift-T, which we're all used to anyway. In truth, as long as we have keyboards which work at all, we'll be able to control Window-Eyes. Smile All the best, Rod -Original Message- From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+rod_hutton=hotmail@lists.window-eyes.com] On Behalf Of David via Talk Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2015 1:26 PM To: Rick Thomas; Window-Eyes Discussion List; 'Stephen Clark' Subject: Screen Reader compatible Keyboards. Was: Re: speaking of Dell computers... Rick and the rest, This discussion, altogether reminds me the one that every now and than, has popped up around USB NumPads. Rick, how much we would love a list provided, for all keyboards on the market, and their compatibility, it will never work. I am going to deal with but a couple of reasons, some of them likely brand new to some of you. First of all, it is true, some keyboards need hardware specific drivers. Even Microsoft has a line of keyboards, which will need drivers, particularly designed for the keyboard to work fully. In some cases, the driver has a menu, or some sort of a control panel, to setup the exact behavior. For instance, my one Microsoft keyboard here, comes with a set of Quick keys, for launching your favorite net browser, your standard Email client, your desirable music player and so forth. Trouble is, the control panel provided by the driver, simply is useless with a screen reader, due to a totally graphical interface. Another Microsoft keyboard I have, is somehow doable to program, since the control panel for setting it up, is partially labelled with text on the screen.In both cases, should you decide you don't want to change the quick keys and their standard (default) behavior, you can run both these keyboards as plug-and-play. Plug them in, and enjoy the standard features, including an app-key, a numlock key, and standard behavior of the numeric keypad. My one Logitech keyboard, does not have a right-hand windows key, but does have an application key. My one Dell laptop has no app-key, no right windows key, but has an FN-key. The wireless keyboard I am on at this instance, has an app-key, a numlock-key, but has no Ctrl-key
RE: Screen Reader compatible Keyboards. Was: Re: speaking of Dell computers...
Also, you could buy a second keyboard with a NumLock key. Many are quite inexpensive. Even with my notebook, I use an external keyboard whenever I can. Here's a post on this where someone on a Dell forum wrote about this concern. One of the responses reads as follows: You could attach any usb keyboard you want--wired or wireless. You don't have to use the kb dell sent. I always use my own keyboard and save the basic dell one as an extra. http://en.community.dell.com/support-forums/desktop/f/3514/t/19476756 -Original Message- From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+richard.petty=earthlink@lists.window-eyes.com] On Behalf Of Rick Thomas via Talk Sent: Monday, April 27, 2015 6:38 AM To: 'Rod Hutton'; 'Window-Eyes Discussion List'; 'David' Subject: RE: Screen Reader compatible Keyboards. Was: Re: speaking of Dell computers... Hi Rod: There are standard codes generated by input devices and required at the Operating System level. This means that using quote standard unquote key combinations should be a safe option for years to come. I don't know enough to get into the codes nor standards but I know they exist and that a keyboard manufacturer designs it to work with an Operating Systems input device requirements in that respect. The elimination of some keys from the mix causes a problem as well defined in prior postings. That said, ReDefining the keys that are going to be in question to some more traditional keys like combinations of the control, shift and other grammar keys should be an option - at least for single country usage and targeted to a particular Operating system unless I am missing something. It can be done by AI Squared or by each client individually using some third party software but, from prior postings, it can be done easily enough so long as the client is educated in creating scripts or in using third party software to modify hardware / software configurations - not my first choice but one that should work if that is how WE Users want to roll. Anyway, this seems to be the most likely solution after everyone pounding out various ideas. If I buy a new system I will just ask folks what keyboards they are using, name and model, so long as there are still good choices out there before coding something up. Rick USA ___ Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. For membership options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/richard.petty% 40earthlink.net. For subscription options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com List archives can be found at http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com ___ Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. For membership options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/archive%40mail-archive.com. For subscription options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com List archives can be found at http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com
RE: Screen Reader compatible Keyboards. Was: Re: speaking of Dell computers...
Hi Rod: There are standard codes generated by input devices and required at the Operating System level. This means that using quote standard unquote key combinations should be a safe option for years to come. I don't know enough to get into the codes nor standards but I know they exist and that a keyboard manufacturer designs it to work with an Operating Systems input device requirements in that respect. The elimination of some keys from the mix causes a problem as well defined in prior postings. That said, ReDefining the keys that are going to be in question to some more traditional keys like combinations of the control, shift and other grammar keys should be an option - at least for single country usage and targeted to a particular Operating system unless I am missing something. It can be done by AI Squared or by each client individually using some third party software but, from prior postings, it can be done easily enough so long as the client is educated in creating scripts or in using third party software to modify hardware / software configurations - not my first choice but one that should work if that is how WE Users want to roll. Anyway, this seems to be the most likely solution after everyone pounding out various ideas. If I buy a new system I will just ask folks what keyboards they are using, name and model, so long as there are still good choices out there before coding something up. Rick USA ___ Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Ai Squared. For membership options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/options.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com/archive%40mail-archive.com. For subscription options, visit http://lists.window-eyes.com/listinfo.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com List archives can be found at http://lists.window-eyes.com/private.cgi/talk-window-eyes.com
RE: Screen Reader compatible Keyboards. Was: Re: speaking of Dell computers...
It is also good to keep in mind that the laptop layout together with using the CAPSLOCK key as the Window-Eyes key works pretty well. I really don't understand why some of the changes to keyboards have been made, but such things appear to be a part of life, and there are many things about the world I don't understand. smile In addition, so much of what a keyboard does is software, even if it is firmware inside of a keyboard, it really does not work to relate one's experiences with one model of keyboard or computer to another, except as something is worth trying in case it works. At least to my way of thinking, anything we can resolve within Window-Eyes is going to be preferrable to adding a third party piece of software. Something like AutoHotKey is very powerful and can do a lot more than just remap keys, and that may have some real value in some cases. If you don't need that power, though, it is just one more variable that may not work the same when you upgrade Windows or Window-Eyes. I got buy without using the laptop layout for a long time because my old Dell had an imbedded numeric pad using the FN key and the letters under the right hand. My newer HP does not support an imbedded numeric pad and it does not have a separate numeric pad. That finally made me try the laptop layout and it has become pretty second nature. Sometimes we can spend more time trying to figure out how not to change than it would take to adjust to the change. smile In saying that, though, of course I recognize that there may be specific situations when some other solution is necessary, but keep an open mind to changing layouts within Window-Eyes. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Mon, 27 Apr 2015 06:42:34 -0400, Rod Hutton via Talk wrote: Hi David and everyone, While I certainly appreciate reading this thread, and clearly there is a lot of energy on this matter of keyboards and their use with screen readers, I would like to say that there is no need for any serious concern about losing the functionality of the Numpad and therefore the functionality of Window-Eyes. This is because any function currently assigned to the Numpad keys can be assigned to other key combinations in the WE control panel. Also, regarding keyboards which happen to include a Numpad and yet do not include a NumLock key, I would guess that if the manufacturer was simply providing the Numpad to make numeric input easier, that manufacturer probably didn't make those keys unique in the codes they pass on to Windows when pressed. In other words, taking the number 5 on the Numpad as an example, my guess is that it would send the same key code to Windows as woudd be sent to Windows by pressing the number 5 on the Qwerty area of the keyboard; therefore, there would be no uniqueness about the Numpad numbers, and also there would be no alternate functions on the Numpad number keys, that is, that uniqueness we're used to when we turn NumLock off. In short, we will need to get used to the idea that we are going to have to use whatever keys are available to get our screen reader tasks completed, and perhaps we'll have to use more key combinations like Control-Shift-T, which we're all used to anyway. In truth, as long as we have keyboards which work at all, we'll be able to control Window-Eyes. Smile All the best, Rod -Original Message- From: Talk [mailto:talk-bounces+rod_hutton=hotmail@lists.window-eyes.com] On Behalf Of David via Talk Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2015 1:26 PM To: Rick Thomas; Window-Eyes Discussion List; 'Stephen Clark' Subject: Screen Reader compatible Keyboards. Was: Re: speaking of Dell computers... Rick and the rest, This discussion, altogether reminds me the one that every now and than, has popped up around USB NumPads. Rick, how much we would love a list provided, for all keyboards on the market, and their compatibility, it will never work. I am going to deal with but a couple of reasons, some of them likely brand new to some of you. First of all, it is true, some keyboards need hardware specific drivers. Even Microsoft has a line of keyboards, which will need drivers, particularly designed for the keyboard to work fully. In some cases, the driver has a menu, or some sort of a control panel, to setup the exact behavior. For instance, my one Microsoft keyboard here, comes with a set of Quick keys, for launching your favorite net browser, your standard Email client, your desirable music player and so forth. Trouble is, the control panel provided by the driver, simply is useless with a screen reader, due to a totally graphical interface. Another Microsoft keyboard I have, is somehow doable to program, since the control panel for setting it up, is partially labelled with text on the screen.In both cases, should you decide you don't want to change the quick keys and their standard (default) behavior, you can run both these keyboards as plug-and-play. Plug them in, and enjoy
