Re: [OSM-talk] Updated view of 'A year of edits on OSM' and also Santa's Routes!

[D Tucny]

Also deleted way 26645814 (
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/26645814/history) that ran east from
Australia...
d

2008/12/5 D Tucny <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> Deleted way 27597540 (
> http://api.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/27597540/history) 
> including
> 5 nodes, 303045069, 303045070, 303045071, 303045072, 303045073... User
> 'pefok'... Ran from a lake in Canada into the Atlantic, across South
> America, out into the Pacific and back again, no objects had any tags even
> created_by...
>
> d
>
> 2008/12/4 Peter Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>>  A few weeks ago ITO published a planet view of edits to OpenStreetMap
>> over the past year.
>>
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/peterito/3054501076/in/pool-itomedia
>>
>>
>>
>> This showed lots of good stuff (and loads of hard work!) but also shows
>> some large scale graffiti which was immediately christened as 'Santa's
>> routes' (see comment on the Flickr page). Some of these routes have now been
>> removed.
>>
>>
>>
>> We have just updated this image to show the current situation which shows
>> what is now left in the dataset and still needs clearing (unless they are
>> ferry routes).
>>
>>
>>
>> Can I suggest that people find them and edit them out if appropriate (this
>> is not easy with big features and the current editors)? Can I also suggest
>> that people make a comment on the Flickr page if they have removed one to
>> avoid duplicate work?
>>
>>
>>
>> We will update this image every few days until they are clear, another
>> good reason to leave a comment if you have removed a trail.
>>
>>
>>
>> It you want to keep up with other images published by ITO then why not
>> subscribe to the 'ItoMedia' pool.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Peter Miller
>>
>> ITO World Ltd
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>
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[OSM-talk] Downtime

[Tom Hughes]

The web site and API will be down for an unknown period of time today, 
Saturday 6th December, while some electrical work is carried out in the 
building where most of our servers are hosted.

We expect the downtime to start around 8-9am but we are not currently 
able to say what time the work will be completed.

Tom

-- 
Tom Hughes ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.compton.nu/

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Re: [OSM-talk] can your yournavigation support inter-island routing

[Alex S.]

Nic Roets wrote:
> Yes.
> http://www.yournavigation.org/?flat=52.96331&flon=4.76825&tlat=53.0023&tlon=4.78954&v=motorcar&fast=1&layer=mapnik
> 
> It's the slowest form of transport :
>  motorcar="3" psv="3"/>

I try to route from ferry-dock to ferry-dock in my area and it works 
fine, but if I move the endpoints up the roads a ways it fails to find a 
valid route.

http://www.yournavigation.org/?flat=47.524873&flon=-122.392737&tlat=47.499108&tlon=-122.462703&v=motorcar&fast=1&layer=mapnik
(zoom out and look east for the green marker)


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Re: [OSM-talk] Yahoo WMS server?

[Iván Sánchez Ortega]

El Viernes, 5 de Diciembre de 2008, Niccolo Rigacci escribió:
> How much different is Yahoo imagery protocol from Microsoft
> VirtualEarth [1] one?

It's not about the protocol or the API, it's about the license.

The Yahoo guys are happy with OSM using their imagery, but we just don't know 
about microsoft.

(For the record: I have my doubts about Google maps imagery)

Cheers,
-- 
--
Iván Sánchez Ortega <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Proudly running Debian Linux with 2.6.26-1-amd64 kernel, KDE 3.5.9, and PHP 
5.2.6-5 generating this signature.
Uptime: 00:21:10 up 6 days,  6:42,  1 user,  load average: 0.50, 0.45, 0.50


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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki "map features"

[Beej Jorgensen]

Gervase Markham wrote:
> Which should I have done? That's the question I'm saying that anyone who
> wants to extend a formerly binary tag with new values needs to provide
> an answer to before they start using the new values.

IMO, one should implement the even-more-defensive option C, which is:

if "bicycle=no":
don't do it
else if "bicycle=yes":
do it
else:
do whatever makes sense for your map here

It is an incorrect assumption that the "binary" tag only contains "yes"
or "no" (or a handful of variants) when an editor is allowed to enter
arbitrary values.  And assuming there are a fixed number of values for
"bicycle" is (in some ways) just as bad as assuming there are a fixed
number of values for, say, "highway".  ("Well, it's none of these other
things--it must be a motorway!")

> My point is that (leaving aside the specific bicycle example) extending
> already-used tags in this way is going to result in confused renderers
> and undefined and renderer-specific behaviour.

I'd say this is totally true, in theory.  But since we can't possibly
stop people from extending tags (all they have to do is use Potlatch) we
have to make sure the renderers can handle it.  If someone edits the map
to say "bicycle=masochistic" and a renderer draws it as a friendly bike
route, it's the renderer's issue, ultimately.

-Beej


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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki "map features"

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

Gervase Markham wrote:
> Say I'm a general purpose renderer who shows access. I understand
> bicycle="no" and bicycle="yes", and show them accordingly.

You will also have to understand "way without bicycle tag" because 
that's what 90% of ways have.

> Now, instead
> of someone coming along with a new tag for their info, they extend
> bicycle and do "bicycle=difficult". My code hits it. 

You treat it like "way without bicycle tag". Anything else would be stupid.

What exactly "way without bicycle tag" means for you, whether you're 
optimistic and assume that such ways can be used by bicycles or whether 
you're conservative and drop them from your map, is another, altogehter 
different matter.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED]  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki "map features"

[Gervase Markham]

Frederik Ramm wrote:
> Without commenting on the rest of the discussion: Surely you (the 
> renderer) must draw such an object as if there were no bicycle tag at 
> all, whatever that means for you.

But that doesn't work, does it?

Say I'm a general purpose renderer who shows access. I understand
bicycle="no" and bicycle="yes", and show them accordingly. Now, instead
of someone coming along with a new tag for their info, they extend
bicycle and do "bicycle=difficult". My code hits it. If I've defensively
programmed my code, it'll do one of:

if (bicycle=yes) {
  Do A
}
else {
  Do B
}

or, alternatively,

if (bicycle=no) {
  Do B
}
else {
  Do A
}

Which should I have done? That's the question I'm saying that anyone who
wants to extend a formerly binary tag with new values needs to provide
an answer to before they start using the new values.

Say I assume "bicycle=no" for unknown values, as you suggest. That means
that bicycle-accessible bits, formerly rendered on my map, would
suddenly drop off entirely because someone decided to get more specific.
So in this case, an assumption of "yes" might make more sense. But it
might not in every case.

My point is that (leaving aside the specific bicycle example) extending
already-used tags in this way is going to result in confused renderers
and undefined and renderer-specific behaviour.

Gerv


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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki "map features"

[Richard Fairhurst]

Gervase Markham wrote:
> Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> > if access==no or access==false then allowed=no else allowed=yes
>
> So basically, you have to decide that all unknown values default 
> to either one or the other.
> 
> If I'm a renderer, and I come across bicycle=difficult, and I only 
> know about "no" and "yes", which one do I assume?

My entire point was that you extend the access tags for variations on "yes"
alone. It doesn't remotely make any sense otherwise.

Hence, as above: if access==no or access==false then allowed=no else
allowed=yes

If you like I can write a fourth message saying this in a different way, if
it helps? Perhaps in Medieval Welsh for variety?

cheers
Richard
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://www.nabble.com/Edit-war-on-the-wiki-%22map-features%22-tp20683909p20862375.html
Sent from the OpenStreetMap - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


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Re: [OSM-talk] can your yournavigation support inter-island routing

[Nic Roets]

Hi Bernt,

The default parameters for gosmore is that a ferry travels at 3 km/h
and there is currently no way to override the parameters for specific
object (It's not yet perfect !). The 3km/h allows for the time it will
you will need to wait for the ferry to arrive, embarking, traveling
and disembarking i.e. 3 hours for the ferry ride in question. You may
well say "I'll plan my day so that I arrive at the scheduled departure
time", but then you won't be using gosmore.

Selecting "shortest" reveals that there is some problem with the
oneway service roads in that area, because reversing the route or
changing to bicycle or foot works.

--
The English channel ferry routes looks OK:
http://www.yournavigation.org/?flat=51.127581&flon=1.332441&tlat=50.966031&tlon=1.859529&v=foot&fast=0&layer=mapnik
If I slightly modify the route, gosmore gives up with no data problem.
It does this in order conserve RAM (there may also be a bad hash
function in the mix...). (It's not yet perfect !)

The Channel Tunnel is tagged
* tunnel: yes
* railway: rail
* name:nl: Kanaaltunnel
* created_by: Potlatch 0.10c
* maxspeed: 160
* name: Channel Tunnel
* tracks: 2
* source: interpolation
* layer: -4
Can we tag it with motorcar:yes foot:yes bicycle:yes ? That in itself
will not be enough, but the changes to gosmore will eventually follow.



On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 1:16 PM, Robert (Jamie) Munro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Nic Roets wrote:
>> Yes.
>> http://www.yournavigation.org/?flat=52.96331&flon=4.76825&tlat=53.0023&tlon=4.78954&v=motorcar&fast=1&layer=mapnik
>>
>> It's the slowest form of transport :
>> > motorcar="3" psv="3"/>
>
> It won't take the Channel Tunnel, or any UK - Mainland Europe ferries yet:
> http://www.yournavigation.org/?flat=50.938668&flon=1.903311&tlat=51.176453&tlon=0.82&v=motorcar&fast=1&layer=mapnik
>
> Is this because the database is partitioned or something?
>
> Robert (Jamie) Munro
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAkk5DXQACgkQz+aYVHdncI3/MgCgpbCpcHlG8PBBDUc/Hym7b8L1
> B4IAoKK1AGnBJIjLBHMLZ7oeyajfVNUQ
> =gSrn
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>

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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki "map features"

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

Gervase Markham wrote:
> If I'm a renderer, and I come across bicycle=difficult, and I only know
> about "no" and "yes", which one do I assume?

Without commenting on the rest of the discussion: Surely you (the 
renderer) must draw such an object as if there were no bicycle tag at 
all, whatever that means for you.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED]  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki "map features"

[Gervase Markham]

Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> Sure it does.
> 
> if access==no or access==false then allowed=no else allowed=yes

So basically, you have to decide that all unknown values default to
either one or the other.

If I'm a renderer, and I come across bicycle=difficult, and I only know
about "no" and "yes", which one do I assume?

IMO, at the very least, people who wish to extend existing tags in this
way need to update the tag description page to say what the default is
in the case of an unknown value.

Gerv


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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Maps - OSM comparison

[Edward Johnson]

At CloudMade we have been doing a lot of research and comparison into 
the quality and completeness of the map but more focussing on Europe and 
the USA. So it is very interesting to see this and see just how far 
ahead we seem to be in less developed areas.

I would be very interested in looking through that spreadsheet Alex, 
could you send it over to me. Perhaps I will go through the list myself 
and do some rankings and we can compare results.

Ed Johnson

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Captials in Europe are done very well (Vaduz is an exception)
> > 
> > In South America OSM is far behind Google
> > 
> > In Afrika the winner is OSM
> > 
> > In Asia it's mixed.
> > 
>   
>
> I ran through the whole list, ranking the quality of the map for each of
> OSM and Google on a scale of 0-5. (0 meaning that the map is blank or
> only the name appears, 5 meaning that it doesn't seem like anything is
> missing from the map)  Assuming I did a good job of ranking, OSM is
> slightly ahead of Google worldwide and in in Africa and Asia.  In
> Europe, OSM is well ahead.  Google is slightly ahead in Oceania, and
> well ahead in North and especially South America
>
> Here are the results (I can provide my rankings in a spreadsheet as well
> if anyone is interested):
>   OSM Google
> World 2.642.50
> Africa2.021.78
> Asia  2.622.36
> Europe3.903.38
> N Am  2.172.77
> Oceania   2.192.35
> S Am  2.363.21
>
> -Alex Mauer "hawke
>
>
>
>   


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Re: [OSM-talk] Yahoo WMS server?

[Niccolo Rigacci]

On Thu, Dec 04, 2008 at 09:13:59PM +0100, Till Harbaum / Lists wrote:
> 
> is there a stand-alone yahoo WMS server? Yahoos license seem to allow this
> and some users of my osm2go ask for yahoo images. Going through a 
> wms server would be the easiest and cleanest solution i think.

How much different is Yahoo imagery protocol from Microsoft 
VirtualEarth [1] one?

I wrote a WMS proxy for VE, I can provide the PHP :-( code!
Just install Apache and copy the php code.

Unfortunately VE is not usable for OSM, due VirtualEarth license 
restriction.

[1] http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb259689.aspx

-- 
Niccolo Rigacci
Firenze - Italy

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Re: [OSM-talk] can your yournavigation support inter-island routing

[Bernt M. Johnsen]

Is this also a matter of proper tagging?
http://www.yournavigation.org/?flat=63.449421&flon=10.199466&tlat=63.50989&tlon=10.13994&v=motorcar&fast=1&layer=mapnik
Here you get a 4 hour drive instead of 25 minutes with the ferry.

2008/12/5 Lambertus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> I think that the Channel Tunnel won't work because of it being a
> car/train connection which is not yet supported in Gosmore.
>
> The first ferry route that Nic showed [1] is a European ferry route, so
> the technique works. It's probably a matter of proper tagging for the
> other routes.
>
> [1]
> 
>
> Robert (Jamie) Munro wrote:
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> Nic Roets wrote:
>>> Yes.
>>> http://www.yournavigation.org/?flat=52.96331&flon=4.76825&tlat=53.0023&tlon=4.78954&v=motorcar&fast=1&layer=mapnik
>>>
>>> It's the slowest form of transport :
>>> >> motorcar="3" psv="3"/>
>>
>> It won't take the Channel Tunnel, or any UK - Mainland Europe ferries yet:
>> http://www.yournavigation.org/?flat=50.938668&flon=1.903311&tlat=51.176453&tlon=0.82&v=motorcar&fast=1&layer=mapnik
>>
>> Is this because the database is partitioned or something?
>>
>> Robert (Jamie) Munro
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
>> Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin)
>> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>>
>> iEYEARECAAYFAkk5DXQACgkQz+aYVHdncI3/MgCgpbCpcHlG8PBBDUc/Hym7b8L1
>> B4IAoKK1AGnBJIjLBHMLZ7oeyajfVNUQ
>> =gSrn
>> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>>
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>
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-- 
Bernt Marius Johnsen

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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] Name tag for amenity=bank and amenity=atm

[Robert (Jamie) Munro]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Shaun McDonald wrote:
> I've always used name=, rather than operator= for banks.

They are different things. The operator is the name of the company that
runs the bank. The name is the name of the building or branch name.

The renderers have the option to use the operator logos to render the
banks. I don't think they should render the names, except for on the
very highest zoom levels, or if it's a particularly large building.

It's more obvious / important for other kinds of amenities than for
banks, but we should be consistent.

If your stuck, add both tags with the same value. But don't leave
operator out.

Robert (Jamie) Munro
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin)
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iEYEARECAAYFAkk5K5MACgkQz+aYVHdncI0ROQCfQx2iPS9lccQhwaqOcqJPDwuR
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=sDGI
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Re: [OSM-talk] can your yournavigation support inter-island routing

[Lambertus]

I think that the Channel Tunnel won't work because of it being a 
car/train connection which is not yet supported in Gosmore.

The first ferry route that Nic showed [1] is a European ferry route, so 
the technique works. It's probably a matter of proper tagging for the 
other routes.

[1] 


Robert (Jamie) Munro wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Nic Roets wrote:
>> Yes.
>> http://www.yournavigation.org/?flat=52.96331&flon=4.76825&tlat=53.0023&tlon=4.78954&v=motorcar&fast=1&layer=mapnik
>>
>> It's the slowest form of transport :
>> > motorcar="3" psv="3"/>
> 
> It won't take the Channel Tunnel, or any UK - Mainland Europe ferries yet:
> http://www.yournavigation.org/?flat=50.938668&flon=1.903311&tlat=51.176453&tlon=0.82&v=motorcar&fast=1&layer=mapnik
> 
> Is this because the database is partitioned or something?
> 
> Robert (Jamie) Munro
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
> 
> iEYEARECAAYFAkk5DXQACgkQz+aYVHdncI3/MgCgpbCpcHlG8PBBDUc/Hym7b8L1
> B4IAoKK1AGnBJIjLBHMLZ7oeyajfVNUQ
> =gSrn
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] can your yournavigation support inter-island routing

[Robert (Jamie) Munro]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Nic Roets wrote:
> Yes.
> http://www.yournavigation.org/?flat=52.96331&flon=4.76825&tlat=53.0023&tlon=4.78954&v=motorcar&fast=1&layer=mapnik
> 
> It's the slowest form of transport :
>  motorcar="3" psv="3"/>

It won't take the Channel Tunnel, or any UK - Mainland Europe ferries yet:
http://www.yournavigation.org/?flat=50.938668&flon=1.903311&tlat=51.176453&tlon=0.82&v=motorcar&fast=1&layer=mapnik

Is this because the database is partitioned or something?

Robert (Jamie) Munro
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iEYEARECAAYFAkk5DXQACgkQz+aYVHdncI3/MgCgpbCpcHlG8PBBDUc/Hym7b8L1
B4IAoKK1AGnBJIjLBHMLZ7oeyajfVNUQ
=gSrn
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Re: [OSM-talk] Yahoo WMS server?

[Aun Johnsen]

>Message: 5
>Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 21:13:59 +0100
>From: "Till Harbaum / Lists" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: [OSM-talk] Yahoo WMS server?
>To: talk@openstreetmap.org
>Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Content-Type: text/plain;  charset="us-ascii"
>
>Hi,
>
>is there a stand-alone yahoo WMS server? Yahoos license seem to allow this
>and some users of my osm2go ask for yahoo images. Going through a
>wms server would be the easiest and cleanest solution i think.
>
>Thanks,
>  Till
>
And would allow me to trace from Yahoo! images when stealing time off
work. The systems on work doesn't allow the Yahoo WMS plugin in JOSM to
work correctly, and I cannot use my private computer. I seriously think of
buying a broadband dongle just to download email and use Yahoo images in
JOSM. Just think of it, almost out of landsat details in my state, and no
Yahoo for 5 weeks! And also, no chance to get another GPX track for at
least 5 weeks either.

-- 
Brgds
Aun Johnsen
(Over Web Mail)

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Re: [OSM-talk] Unification of OpenStreetBugs an Trac

[Xav]

Christoph :
> I do not want to spend time writing a bug tracker that is then
> rejected because of the way it stores the bug reports.

If you propose a tag/value storage, there is no reason someone would 
reject it.

Xav

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