Re: [OSM-talk] Are there any other projects in a similar fork situation? (Slightly OT)
On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 7:25 PM, Serge Wroclawski wrote: > On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Dave F. wrote: > >> From what I understand, it appears that OSM is cutting ties with many of >> these due to the wording of the new license/CT. > > That's totally wrong. We're seeing greater commercial support than > ever before, Really ? Can you name a single commercial company who said that they are going to do something more with the data after the license change ? SteveC hinted at it a few times, without giving any details. > and we're seeing (for example) the French government > adopt the OBbL. Well the US government has consistently stuck to PD for many decades. And they have released a LOT more data. (TIGER, SRTM, GPS, Landsat etc). ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Are there any other projects in a similar fork situation? (Slightly OT)
On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Dave F. wrote: > From what I understand, it appears that OSM is cutting ties with many of > these due to the wording of the new license/CT. That's totally wrong. We're seeing greater commercial support than ever before, and we're seeing (for example) the French government adopt the OBbL. I've been around the FLOSS community a long time (since 1997) and I've seen lots of these forks. Forks are almost always bad. There are a few times when a fork is necessary (such as the OpenSolaris fork into Illumos and the OpenOffice fork to LibreOffice) but in anything but extraordinary circumstances, all a fork does it hurt the community by splitting the efforts up. I don't think all the forkers are inherently evil, but I do think that these efforts to compete with OSM will just result in overall worse data for OSM and for any potential other project out there, and that's really a shame. - Serge ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM User Testing
SteveC wrote: > We need to think of some simple tasks for new users to complete, and > we'll put them together over on this wiki page. Add a street? Find a > mailing list? Add a point of interest? What should they do? That's > up to you. At the risk of stating the really bleeding obvious, there's not an enormous amount of point doing user testing on Potlatch 1 given that development of Potlatch 2 is so far advanced. For example, two lessons you could feasibly take from P1 user testing are "what the hell's with this tagging thing?", and "why doesn't this map look at all like the one I had a minute ago?", both of which are of course addressed with P2. It might be possible to get some generalised issues from it, of course. But since it would be a shame to waste a promising initiative on things that have already been fixed, it might be worth concentrating on some of the other aspects of the site (like the whole lack-of-documentation "what the hell do I do now" thing). cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/OSM-User-Testing-tp5584505p5594367.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Are there any other projects in a similar fork situation? (Slightly OT)
On 02/10/2010 03:04, Serge Wroclawski wrote: 3) OSM has external organizational support OSM now has organizational, government and commercial support. That's something none of the forks will have. And for the pubic-domainers- any organization who wants to use the OSM stack without the OSM database can (and in some cases) already have done so. From what I understand, it appears that OSM is cutting ties with many of these due to the wording of the new license/CT. If the fork goes ahead there will be less data in OSM than the forks. Cheers Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Are there any other projects in a similar fork situation? (Slightly OT)
On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 7:46 PM, Katie Filbert wrote: > In 2002, the Spanish Wikipedia forked and people went to the other project. > The fork had to do with differences of project policies not license, the > fork died few years later. Spanish Wikipedia grew more slowly as a result This is an important case study. The fork was basically triggered by the possibility of future advertising on Wikipedia not being ruled out. No plans had been made, and as we have seen, no advertising on Wikipedia ever happened. Yet the fear was enough to make a sizeable chunk of the whole Spanish Wikipedia community jump ship. End result: the Spanish Wikipedia was severely damaged, and even years later, remains well behind where it ought to be: only 650k articles, less than even Japanese and Polish, despite vastly greater numbers of Spanish speakers. It seems an apt comparison because the fundamental issues here seem to do with process, and possible future eventualities - rather than some current impassible stumbling block. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Are there any other projects in a similar fork situation? (Slightly OT)
Frederik Ramm remote.org> writes: >There *must* have been some forking action when Wikipedia changed their >license from GFDL to CC-BY-SA I'm sure but I cannot find documentation >on that. I don't believe there was; Wikipedia had a vote of contributors on whether to change the licence, and because of some helpful licence changes by the FSF, there was no loss of data. -- Ed Avis ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Are there any other projects in a similar fork situation? (Slightly OT)
On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 1:45 AM, Dave F. wrote: > Hi > > With the various forks that could/are taking place within OSM I'm curious > if there are any other examples? > > I think it's wrong to think of these projects as forks in the same way as traditional software project forks. Certainly fosm.org holds the same values as OSM[1] and is looking hard at how to keep it's content as compatable and interoperable with OSM as possible[2]. I know there will be people who will want to contribute, at times, to both FOSM and OSM. If we can build the right tools we hope they'll be able to update both sites simultaneously. We've also considered deeply how to make sure that the content is interoperable[3], so that for those people who can use both CC-BY-SA licensed data and ODbL licensed data, they can more easily mix and merge data from separate OSMish sources. I think it's much more enlightened to think of these projects as members of the same family that fulfil different needs. In this context FOSM meets the needs of those people who do not subscribe to ODbL and it provides a place for imports that are not ODbL compatible. 80n [1] Apart from the license obviously. [2] More discussion here: http://groups.google.com/group/osm-fork/browse_thread/thread/1deaa830385c6fdf# [3] For example, by discouraging the divergence of tagging schemes. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Are there any other projects in a similar fork situation? (Slightly OT)
On 02/10/2010 10:03, Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, On 10/02/2010 02:45 AM, Dave F. wrote: With the various forks that could/are taking place within OSM I'm curious if there are any other examples? Wikipedia has a catalogue of forks, unfortunately mixed with mirrors: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Mirrors_and_forks (I particularly like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Mirrors_and_forks/Mno#The_Mcfly_Network.) Hi How many of these are actual forks? Apart from getting a 404 for your example, it lists it as a copy rather than a fork. Some (Wikimapia/wikia) are just "inspired" by Wikipedia & appears to use wiki just to jump on the trendy bandwagon. Citizendium appears to be a competitor but didn't use Wikipedia's database. Are there any true forks that split due to principles that used the whole, same database? Cheers Dave f. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Are there any other projects in a similar fork situation? (Slightly OT)
Le 02/10/10 09:59, Vincent Pottier a écrit : I'm not a lawer, but I think in the French law the moral fatherhood (paernité morale) can't be removed. So, zero attribution can't be a ggod solution for France. But, moral rights take not to change anyhing in the oeuvre without the rights owner's consent. I can't see how he could stand for that, after his work has been modified by some others. How collaborate for designing a changing map and claim for integrity of one's work? Christian Ex-librarian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Are there any other projects in a similar fork situation? (Slightly OT)
wikia.com is an example of a wiki fork project. and it looks to be doing fine :) I like it as it hosts my acrosscanadatrails.wikia.com website. Its outside of wikipeda, and it's facebook integrated. wikimapia is also a fork project, and it's doing great. It has a function and surves a purpose. and as Brendan mentioned. The 'Average User will always be the average user' :) so it's up to us to make a great place for people to have something that keeps people interested, and serves a function. The entire Geospatial-everything Community as a whole is BIG and there certainly is room for many maps, of many kinds. ... and they all are good, and they all serve their unique purpose. cheers, sam On 10/2/10, Katie Filbert wrote: > On Oct 2, 2010, at 5:03 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> On 10/02/2010 02:45 AM, Dave F. wrote: >>> With the various forks that could/are taking place within OSM I'm >>> curious if there are any other examples? >> >> Wikipedia has a catalogue of forks, unfortunately mixed with mirrors: >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Mirrors_and_forks >> >> (I particularly like >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Mirrors_and_forks/Mno#The_Mcfly >> _Network.) >> >> There *must* have been some forking action when Wikipedia changed >> their license from GFDL to CC-BY-SA I'm sure but I cannot find >> documentation on that. > > No fork that I know of due to license change, at least nothing serious > that I heard about. > > In 2002, the Spanish Wikipedia forked and people went to the other > project. The fork had to do with differences of project policies not > license, the fork died few years later. Spanish Wikipedia grew more > slowly as a result > > There's also citizendium, not really a fork at all but different and > unsuccessful way of having articles reviewed and vetted. > > There is some debate about licenses among some of our more prolific > and talented photographers. The GFDL license gives photographers more > opportunity to make some $$ from their works as some book publishers > rather not adhere to GFDL and don't mind paying for use of a good > photograph found on Wikipedia. > > Katie > >> >> Bye >> Frederik >> >> >> ___ >> talk mailing list >> talk@openstreetmap.org >> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > -- Twitter: @Acrosscanada Blogs: http://acrosscanadatrails.posterous.com/ http://Acrosscanadatrails.blogspot.com Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/sam.vekemans Skype: samvekemans IRC: irc://irc.oftc.net #osm-ca Canadian OSM channel (an open chat room) @Acrosscanadatrails ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Are there any other projects in a similar fork situation? (Slightly OT)
On Oct 2, 2010, at 5:03 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, On 10/02/2010 02:45 AM, Dave F. wrote: With the various forks that could/are taking place within OSM I'm curious if there are any other examples? Wikipedia has a catalogue of forks, unfortunately mixed with mirrors: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Mirrors_and_forks (I particularly like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Mirrors_and_forks/Mno#The_Mcfly _Network.) There *must* have been some forking action when Wikipedia changed their license from GFDL to CC-BY-SA I'm sure but I cannot find documentation on that. No fork that I know of due to license change, at least nothing serious that I heard about. In 2002, the Spanish Wikipedia forked and people went to the other project. The fork had to do with differences of project policies not license, the fork died few years later. Spanish Wikipedia grew more slowly as a result There's also citizendium, not really a fork at all but different and unsuccessful way of having articles reviewed and vetted. There is some debate about licenses among some of our more prolific and talented photographers. The GFDL license gives photographers more opportunity to make some $$ from their works as some book publishers rather not adhere to GFDL and don't mind paying for use of a good photograph found on Wikipedia. Katie Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Are there any other projects in a similar fork situation? (Slightly OT)
Hi, On 10/02/2010 02:45 AM, Dave F. wrote: With the various forks that could/are taking place within OSM I'm curious if there are any other examples? Wikipedia has a catalogue of forks, unfortunately mixed with mirrors: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Mirrors_and_forks (I particularly like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Mirrors_and_forks/Mno#The_Mcfly_Network.) There *must* have been some forking action when Wikipedia changed their license from GFDL to CC-BY-SA I'm sure but I cannot find documentation on that. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Are there any other projects in a similar fork situation? (Slightly OT)
On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 9:59 AM, Vincent Pottier wrote: > On 02/10/2010 05:51, Brendan Morley wrote: >> >> I actually investigated the use of public domain principles - however >> Australian copyright law does not allow it. The best we can do is a CC BY >> with zero attribution. If there's anyone out there who can let me know why >> zero attribution is not a good enough substitute for public domain, I'd like >> to get in contact with you. > > I'm not a lawer, but I think in the French law the moral fatherhood > (paernité morale) can't be removed. So, zero attribution can't be a ggod > solution for France. I am also not a lawyer, but I think some of these problems can be solved by a little bit of legal structuring. The foundation can ask the contributors to collect and process the data in return for some token reward, like a little bit of CPU time. Then the contributors will never have ownership of the data. You can even go a step further: If one of the governments are interested in getting directly involved, the terms and conditions of the website can say that that government is asking you to collect the data and process the data for some token reward. Then that government can make it PD. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Are there any other projects in a similar fork situation? (Slightly OT)
On 02/10/2010 05:51, Brendan Morley wrote: I actually investigated the use of public domain principles - however Australian copyright law does not allow it. The best we can do is a CC BY with zero attribution. If there's anyone out there who can let me know why zero attribution is not a good enough substitute for public domain, I'd like to get in contact with you. I'm not a lawer, but I think in the French law the moral fatherhood (paernité morale) can't be removed. So, zero attribution can't be a ggod solution for France. (apologies to Brendan for the bad posting on his mailbox) -- FrViPofm ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Choosing license for gps traces
Hi, I wish that one could select some license for the gps traces.(they are after all a good basic source where a contributor owns all copyright rights. What is the current best way of selecting a license or other legal document for one's gps traces? Simply stating it on own osm user page? (http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/usernamegoeshere) Later optionally state it also at one's wiki page?(if a contributor has one) Regards, Niklas -- signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
