date:20110105


Hi,

On 01/05/11 09:01, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen wrote:

Is there a tool available to remove all my contributed data from osm,
safeguard it, and allows me to resubmit once I can agree
with the CT and new license ?


No. You would probably negatively affect a lot of other contributions by 
removing your data. This might be considered vandalism. If you were to 
remove your data now, others would probably undo the removal.


Also, re-submitting your data later would create new objects, thus 
destroying the history; this is something we would not want to become 
the normal procedure.



Once the CT becomes binding, this will have to be carried
out by OSMF anyway for a substantial number of users,


I don't expect the number to be substantial.


so it would be best to allow for users to do this themselves.


Certainly not; even if OSMF has to remove data from users who have not 
relicensed their data, it is better to do so in one co-ordinated process 
rather than lots of people trying to do it themselves.



Of course, there has to be discussed about the rules that will
govern the removals, as 1^st of April is quickly coming, we should start the
discussion.


Nothing will be removed on 1st April. 1st April only means that you will 
not be allowed to edit *with your old account* if you haven't agreed to 
the CT.



In addition we need to determine a procedure so as users
cannot remove data from other contributors, so some authentication
is required.


No. Everyone in OSM can remove everything without authentication.


Anyone thinking about it ?
Can we start a discussion ?


Why do you worry? Just leave this to OSMF. If they don't do their job 
properly you can still sue them for violating your copyright.


In addition to all the other problems you would be causing, you would 
also hurt any potential CC-BY-SA forks (which are likely to use the last 
published CC-BY-SA planet as a starting point, and that planet would not 
contain your data if you remove it prematurely).


Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] How to remove my data since 2006

Frederik Ramm frede...@... writes:

Nothing will be removed on 1st April. 1st April only means that you will 
not be allowed to edit *with your old account* if you haven't agreed to 
the CT.

Can you clarify this?  I understood that the CTs were per-person, not
per-account, so if you are unable to agree to them for existing contributions 
you
would not be able to open a new account either (since to do so you'd have to
agree to the CTs for your earlier contributions too).

-- 
Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com


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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] How to remove my data since 2006

2011-01-05 Thread Grant Slater

On 5 January 2011 12:09, Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com wrote:
 Frederik Ramm frede...@... writes:

Nothing will be removed on 1st April. 1st April only means that you will
not be allowed to edit *with your old account* if you haven't agreed to
the CT.

 Can you clarify this?  I understood that the CTs were per-person, not
 per-account, so if you are unable to agree to them for existing contributions 
 you
 would not be able to open a new account either (since to do so you'd have to
 agree to the CTs for your earlier contributions too).


Repeated again... per account. The 1.0 version of the CT terms are not
clear, but the intent is per account.
It has been fixed in the current draft revision of the CTs which
should hopefully go live in the next few weeks.

Regards
 Grant
 Member of the LWG

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] How to remove my data since 2006

On 5 January 2011 22:15, Grant Slater openstreet...@firefishy.com wrote:
 Repeated again... per account. The 1.0 version of the CT terms are not
 clear, but the intent is per account.

And here I was thinking that contracts are about what's in them... No
matter how much you'd wish and hope they'd have been more clear to
begin with, it won't change the wording until you actually update what
people can agree to.

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] How to remove my data since 2006

2011-01-05 Thread Maarten Deen


On Wed, 5 Jan 2011 12:09:41 + (UTC), Ed Avis wrote:

Frederik Ramm frede...@... writes:

Nothing will be removed on 1st April. 1st April only means that you 
will
not be allowed to edit *with your old account* if you haven't agreed 
to

the CT.


Can you clarify this?  I understood that the CTs were per-person, not
per-account, so if you are unable to agree to them for existing
contributions you
would not be able to open a new account either (since to do so you'd 
have to

agree to the CTs for your earlier contributions too).


CTs will allways be per account. There is nothing linking seperate 
accounts together or even to an actual person. There is only an e-mail 
address.
Any one person can also create multiple accounts and choose to accept 
or not accept the CT for his currently exisiting account as he wishes.


Regards,
Maarten

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] CTs and the 1 April deadline


Hi,

On 01/05/2011 01:17 PM, Ed Avis wrote:

If the new path for licence changes is well-thought-out and well-defined, why
are we not using it now?


I would love to, however if today 2/3 agree to the license change, we 
still need to get an OK from the remaining 1/3 to continue using their 
data because they have not signed up to any CT that would allow us to do 
so even if they are in the minority. Also, there is no binding 
definition on who is an active contributor (and thus has a right to 
vote). So this procedure really is only possible *after* everyone has 
signed up.


Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] How to remove my data since 2006

Grant Slater openstreet...@... writes:

I understood that the CTs were per-person, not
per-account, so if you are unable to agree to them for existing contributions
you would not be able to open a new account either (since to do so you'd have
to agree to the CTs for your earlier contributions too).

Repeated again... per account. The 1.0 version of the CT terms are not
clear, but the intent is per account.
It has been fixed in the current draft revision of the CTs which
should hopefully go live in the next few weeks.

Thanks, that's useful to know.  I see that 'in this user account' has been added
in the draft https://docs.google.com/View?id=dd9g3qjp_933xs7nvfb.

-- 
Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com


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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] How to remove my data since 2006

On 5 January 2011 22:21, Maarten Deen md...@xs4all.nl wrote:
 CTs will allways be per account. There is nothing linking seperate accounts
 together or even to an actual person. There is only an e-mail address.
 Any one person can also create multiple accounts and choose to accept or not
 accept the CT for his currently exisiting account as he wishes.

You seem to be confusing enforcement of contracts with the contract
itself. Just because something might be difficult to enforce doesn't
make it less enforcible, and as usual, it mostly effects those that
tend to err to the side of caution/honesty.

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] CTs and the 1 April deadline

2011-01-05 Thread Grant Slater

On 5 January 2011 04:13, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 5 January 2011 04:37, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote:
 That is true. If OSMF wanted to release the data as PD, it would have to
 delete any OS OpenData-derived content first.

 I still don't understand how data could be accepted on that basis in
 the first place, either there has to be firm statements that such data
 would be removed, not may be removed, or there has to be firm
 statements that attribution would be a requirement of future licenses
 or that data simply couldn't be incorporated as far as I can see.


Our mapping is (likely) illegal in North Korea and a few other
regions. I bet we would not remove the data even if formally demanded
by the North Korean Government etc.
The language choice of language is intentional.

Regards
 Grant

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] CTs and the 1 April deadline

On 5 January 2011 22:28, Grant Slater openstreet...@firefishy.com wrote:
 Our mapping is (likely) illegal in North Korea and a few other

You have mentioned China, because mapping there is illegal without the
proper permits or whatever you need.

 regions. I bet we would not remove the data even if formally demanded
 by the North Korean Government etc.

Since OSM data is hosted in the UK this is mostly a strawman argument.
This is argument is only applicable for those that are collecting data
by survey, since they would be breaking the law.

 The language choice of language is intentional.

What exactly is your point here?

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] CTs and the 1 April deadline


John Smith wrote:
 I still don't understand how data could be accepted on that basis 
 in the first place, either there has to be firm statements that such 
 data would be removed, not may be removed

As I said to Robert last night, I don't think you need to explicitly write
we will not do anything illegal into the Contributor Terms, whether the
illegal act is shooting Google executives or deliberately distributing
copyright material without permission.

So when the CTs say that [OSMF] may delete that data, that's just a
warning to the user. It doesn't need to be a promise of we won't break the
law because that's taken as read - especially in the light of the clause
that starts off the whole of Section 1, We want to respect the intellectual
property rights of others.

cheers
Richard

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] CTs and the 1 April deadline


Ed Avis wrote:
 I think that actions speak louder than words

svn is that way 

cheers
Richard


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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] CTs and the 1 April deadline

On 5 January 2011 22:41, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote:
 As I said to Robert last night, I don't think you need to explicitly write
 we will not do anything illegal into the Contributor Terms, whether the
 illegal act is shooting Google executives or deliberately distributing
 copyright material without permission.

What's with the comparisons of contract law and criminal law? This
seems like comparing apples and oranges, of course you can't kill
people, well there is even exceptions there but that is getting off
topic.

The problem here is the fact that you want to do something,
incorporate OS data into OSM, however I can't see how the current CTs,
or even any of the rivisions would allow this unless you added some
guarantees of actions that would be taken in future if the license was
changed.

 So when the CTs say that [OSMF] may delete that data, that's just a
 warning to the user. It doesn't need to be a promise of we won't break the
 law because that's taken as read - especially in the light of the clause

Breaking contracts isn't usually breaking the law, however the law
can be invoked to remedy any breaches of that contract law, however
I'm not claiming that, I'm saying you can't even do something unless
you have at least some kind of policy on outcomes of certain events
occurring, in this case putting it in the CT contract would make a lot
of sense if you actually wanted to allow others to do something that
the CTs would otherwise prohibit.

 that starts off the whole of Section 1, We want to respect the intellectual
 property rights of others.

Which to me is typical cover your ass type clauses that exist in most
places, it doesn't state how or what would happen in cases that that
clause is breached.

This goes back to Steve Bennett's question about unagreeing to the CT,
it seems to me he breached the CTs the moment he agreed to them in
which case the CT would be null and void since nothing is specified as
to what should happen.

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] CTs and the 1 April deadline

2011-01-05 Thread ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen

Frederik Ramm frede...@... writes:

If the new path for licence changes is well-thought-out and well-defined, why
are we not using it now?

I would love to, however if today 2/3 agree to the license change, we 
still need to get an OK from the remaining 1/3 to continue using their 
data

Right!  And it would be much easier to get their agreement if you said 'there 
has
been a free and fair vote, and most people voted in favour of the change, so it
would be good for you to cooperate'... rather than 'we have already decided what
we want to do, now click Yes or be deleted from the project'.

Also, there is no binding 
definition on who is an active contributor (and thus has a right to 
vote). So this procedure really is only possible *after* everyone has 
signed up.

Indeed.  Surely the right thing to do, if we accept for the time being that
a centralized licensing model is the way forward, is to first sort out the
contributor terms and get general agreement, then have the discussion and vote
on whether to move to ODbL, dual-licensing, public domain or anything else.

-- 
Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com


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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] How to remove my data since 2006

Frederic said as a reply:

No. You would probably negatively affect a lot of other contributions by 
removing your data. This might be considered vandalism. If you were to 
remove your data now, others would probably undo the removal.

These points are not relevant. Once OSM continues under new license and CT
(as currently presented) I demand to have my owned data withdrawn.
I just want OSMF to create a procedure on how to do this without
creating the damage you refer to. 

some suggestion:

One possibility would to have a  block bit on my data, excluding it
from being processed when creating tiles, or being exported.
Other OSM-ers may  be allowed to edit until I finally decide to
have it completely removed, or undo the block bit. That would not
harm history.


I don't expect the number to be substantial.
Your Opinion !

Certainly not; even if OSMF has to remove data from users who have not 
relicensed their data, it is better to do so in one co-ordinated process 
rather than lots of people trying to do it themselves.

That is what I am asking for: a well thought out process, preventing me from 
using JOSM.

Nothing will be removed on 1st April. 1st April only means that you will 
not be allowed to edit *with your old account* if you haven't agreed to 
the CT.

No edit with my account leads to that I demand my previous data to be removed.

No. Everyone in OSM can remove everything without authentication.
This authentication was to prevent me from deleting *your* data (in full)
thus to guarantee your rights.

Why do you worry? Just leave this to OSMF. If they don't do their job 
properly you can still sue them for violating your copyright.
OSMF seems to have other priorities then truly free data.
Free data needs no license or CT.

In addition to all the other problems you would be causing, you would 
also hurt any potential CC-BY-SA forks (which are likely to use the last 
published CC-BY-SA planet as a starting point, and that planet would not 
contain your data if you remove it prematurely).

That is a valid argument.

Gert Gremmen
-

Openstreetmap.nl  (alias: cetest)
 Before printing, think about the environment. 


-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: legal-talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org 
[mailto:legal-talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org] Namens Frederik Ramm
Verzonden: Wednesday, January 05, 2011 11:20 AM
Aan: legal-talk@openstreetmap.org
Onderwerp: Re: [OSM-legal-talk] How to remove my data since 2006

Hi,

On 01/05/11 09:01, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen wrote:
 Is there a tool available to remove all my contributed data from osm,
 safeguard it, and allows me to resubmit once I can agree
 with the CT and new license ?

No. You would probably negatively affect a lot of other contributions by 
removing your data. This might be considered vandalism. If you were to 
remove your data now, others would probably undo the removal.

Also, re-submitting your data later would create new objects, thus 
destroying the history; this is something we would not want to become 
the normal procedure.

 Once the CT becomes binding, this will have to be carried
 out by OSMF anyway for a substantial number of users,

I don't expect the number to be substantial.

 so it would be best to allow for users to do this themselves.

Certainly not; even if OSMF has to remove data from users who have not 
relicensed their data, it is better to do so in one co-ordinated process 
rather than lots of people trying to do it themselves.

 Of course, there has to be discussed about the rules that will
 govern the removals, as 1^st of April is quickly coming, we should start the
 discussion.

Nothing will be removed on 1st April. 1st April only means that you will 
not be allowed to edit *with your old account* if you haven't agreed to 
the CT.

 In addition we need to determine a procedure so as users
 cannot remove data from other contributors, so some authentication
 is required.

No. Everyone in OSM can remove everything without authentication.

 Anyone thinking about it ?
 Can we start a discussion ?

Why do you worry? Just leave this to OSMF. If they don't do their job 
properly you can still sue them for violating your copyright.

In addition to all the other problems you would be causing, you would 
also hurt any potential CC-BY-SA forks (which are likely to use the last 
published CC-BY-SA planet as a starting point, and that planet would not 
contain your data if you remove it prematurely).

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] How to remove my data since 2006

2011-01-05 Thread Rob Myers


On 05/01/11 13:14, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen wrote:


These points are not relevant. Once OSM continues under new license and CT
(as currently presented) I demand to have my owned data withdrawn.


Why?

- Rob.

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] How to remove my data since 2006

2011-01-05 Thread Jukka Rahkonen

Maarten Deen md...@... writes:


  CTs will allways be per account. There is nothing linking seperate 
  accounts together or even to an actual person. There is only an e-mail 
  address.
  Any one person can also create multiple accounts and choose to accept 
  or not accept the CT for his currently exisiting account as he wishes.

That brings to my mind that how we can ever say in a reliable way who 
is an active contributor as defined by the CTs
 An active contributor is defined as:
a natural person (whether using a single or multiple accounts) 

-Jukka Rahkonen-


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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] How to remove my data since 2006

2011-01-05 Thread Andreas Perstinger


On 2011-01-05 14:14, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen wrote:

These points are not relevant. Once OSM continues under new license and CT
(as currently presented) I demand to have my owned data withdrawn.


Just out of curiosity: What do you consider as your data?

Bye, Andreas

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] How to remove my data since 2006


Hi,

On 01/05/2011 02:14 PM, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen  
Nothing will be removed on 1st April. 1st April only means that you will

not be allowed to edit *with your old account* if you haven't agreed to
the CT.


No edit with my account leads to that I demand my previous data to be removed.


There is no legal basis for such a demand.


No. Everyone in OSM can remove everything without authentication.



This authentication was to prevent me from deleting *your* data (in full)
thus to guarantee your rights.


If you were to delete data that I have contributed, you would not 
violate any of my rights. Your act might be considered vandalism, and 
reverted, nonetheless.


Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] CTs and the 1 April deadline


John Smith wrote:
 On 5 January 2011 22:41, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote:
  As I said to Robert last night, I don't think you need to explicitly
 write
  we will not do anything illegal into the Contributor Terms
 [...]
 What's with the comparisons of contract law and criminal law?

Copyright infringement _is_ a criminal offence in England  Wales; and the
CTs expressly state that the agreement between OSMF and the user shall be
governed by English law.

From CDPA 1988 (there's lots more):

A person commits an offence who, without the licence of the copyright
owner... distributes... to such an extent as to affect prejudicially the
owner of the copyright... an article which is, and which he knows or has
reason to believe is, an infringing copy of a copyright work.

The penalty is up to ten years' imprisonment. Scary stuff.

cheers
Richard


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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] How to remove my data since 2006

2011-01-05 Thread ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen


Gert Gremmen wrote:
 Free data needs no license or CT.

I agree! I'm really glad you - like me and many others - are dedicating your
data to the public domain. No licence, no CT.

 Once OSM continues under new license and CT
 (as currently presented) I demand to have my owned data withdrawn.

Oh, oops, too late. You just dedicated your data to the public domain. That
means anyone can do anything with it, e.g. distribute it under ODbL+CT.

cheers
Richard


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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] How to remove my data since 2006

You have a point. ;
But I wrote just my intention, not my decision.
But I can still remove whatever data I consider mine. 
(well, until april 1st)

Gert Gremmen
-

Openstreetmap.nl  (alias: cetest)
 Before printing, think about the environment. 



-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: legal-talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org 
[mailto:legal-talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org] Namens Richard Fairhurst
Verzonden: Wednesday, January 05, 2011 3:06 PM
Aan: legal-talk@openstreetmap.org
Onderwerp: Re: [OSM-legal-talk] How to remove my data since 2006


Gert Gremmen wrote:
 Free data needs no license or CT.

I agree! I'm really glad you - like me and many others - are dedicating your
data to the public domain. No licence, no CT.

 Once OSM continues under new license and CT
 (as currently presented) I demand to have my owned data withdrawn.

Oh, oops, too late. You just dedicated your data to the public domain. That
means anyone can do anything with it, e.g. distribute it under ODbL+CT.

cheers
Richard


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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] CTs and the 1 April deadline

On 5 January 2011 23:53, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote:
 Copyright infringement _is_ a criminal offence in England  Wales; and the
 CTs expressly state that the agreement between OSMF and the user shall be
 governed by English law.

I was under the impression that only the US had personal copyright
infringement as a criminal offence... This is generally given as a
reason that individuals aren't being sued outside the US for copying
music.

 From CDPA 1988 (there's lots more):

 A person commits an offence who, without the licence of the copyright
 owner... distributes... to such an extent as to affect prejudicially the
 owner of the copyright... an article which is, and which he knows or has
 reason to believe is, an infringing copy of a copyright work.

 The penalty is up to ten years' imprisonment. Scary stuff.

Would that penalty be for personal or commercial infringement?

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] CTs and the 1 April deadline

On 6 January 2011 00:29, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote:
 I was under the impression that only the US had personal copyright
 infringement as a criminal offence... This is generally given as a
 reason that individuals aren't being sued outside the US for copying
 music.

... being sued to the same extent outside the US...

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] CTs and the 1 April deadline


John Smith wrote:
 I was under the impression that only the US had personal copyright
 infringement as a criminal offence...

It's an offence in EW whether personal or commercial. For a business, it's
an offence to distribute copyrighted material without licence; for an
individual, it's an offence to distribute it (as I quoted) to such an
extent as to affect prejudicially the owner of the copyright.

 Would that penalty be for personal or commercial infringement?

Either.

cheers
Richard

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] CTs and the 1 April deadline

2011-01-05 Thread Robert Whittaker (OSM)

On 4 January 2011 23:33, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote:

 Robert Whittaker (OSM) wrote:
 That is true. If OSMF wanted to release the data as PD, it would have
 to delete any OS OpenData-derived content first.
 However, is there any guarantee that OSMF will remove such data
 first?

 I'm not quite sure I see your point. There's no guarantee that the OSMF
 board won't infringe the OS OpenData licence, sure, but there's also no
 guarantee that the OSMF board won't go berserk and start gunning down
 Google's executives. Both would be illegal. There are already laws about not
 shooting Google executives - we don't need to explicitly add them to the
 Contributor Terms.

Setting aside clause 1 of the new revision of the contributor terms (
https://docs.google.com/View?id=dd9g3qjp_933xs7nvfbpli=1 ) as that
seems to conflict with the later terms, it's my understanding that
clauses 2-4 have the following effect:

Clause 2 requires contributors to make a large grant of IP rights to
OSMF on any content added to OSM. I believe that the intent here is
actually that you only grant OSMF the rights necessary for them to act
as described in clauses 3 and 4. (A strict reading would say that you
need to grant them all the rights, and in return they agree only to
use them as described in clauses 3 and 4 -- this stricter
interpretation is problematic as it would mean you could essentially
only add PD data, or data that IP owners had given explicit permission
for, but this is by-the-by for the current argument.)

Lets now consider what rights are necessary for OSMF to act as
described in clauses 3 and 4. Since the data will be initially
distributed under CC-By-SA and ODbL, you must have sufficient rights
to allow the data you contribute to be distributed in this way. Since
there is also the possibility of OSM content later being distributed
under a license that requires no downstream attribution or share-alike
provisions, then you must have sufficient rights to be able to give
that right to so distribute the data to OSMF. So if the license you
have data under contains share-alike or viral-attribution clauses then
you do not have the necessary rights to grant to OSMF, and therefore
it cannot be contributed under the terms of clause 2.

However, I'm not sure how clause 1 fits into this. Regardless of what
is says about not having to guarantee that the data is compatible with
current or future licenses, clause 2 still requires you to grant OSMF
rights that would make it so. The only obvious resolution I can see is
if clause 2 is meant to refer only to the contributor's own IP rights
in the contents they submit -- but that's not what the current wording
says: You hereby grant to OSMF a ... licence to do any act ... over
anything within the Contents.

If it is meant to only cover the contributor's own IP rights in the
submitted contents, then I think the wording needs top be clarified.
But then I'd be happy that you'd be able to use OS OpenData under
those CTs. (Though I still think it's debatable whether the OS
OpenData License is compatible with ODbL -- the last I heard directly
from OS is that they consider that it isn't. But that's sort of
irrelevant if the CTs don't require you to guarantee it. And hopefully
OS will switch to the new Open Government License soon, which is
explicitly compatible with ODbL.)

-- 
Robert Whittaker

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] CTs and the 1 April deadline

2011-01-05 Thread Francis Davey

To answer Robert's question. In my view clause 2 needs - and I hope
that it will include in its final version - a limitation that you only
grant a licence in respect of any rights that you have.

The aim (I believe) is this:

* the contributor licenses very broadly OSMF to permit them to use any
rights (in copyright or database right) that the contributor has in
the data contributed

* whether or not the contributor has any intellectual property rights
in the data contributed, they are asked not to contribute data if that
contribution would infringe someone else's IP rights, but they are
expressly told they don't have to guarantee that is the case (because
the contributor won't in general be a lawyer)

* OSMF promises to use data in a restricted set of ways (as set out in
clause 3 and 4).

In order for this to work as planned, clause 2 needs some words of
limitation eg and to the extent that you are able to do so.

I realise I owe a response to a much earlier question about whether
and to what extent contributing data that is later used in breach of
an IP right might impact on the contributor (short answer: I doubt
there's any risk). I'm just rather busy right now. Sorry.

-- 
Francis Davey

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] CTs and the 1 April deadline

2011-01-05 Thread andrzej zaborowski

On 5 January 2011 13:24, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:
 Hi,

 On 01/05/2011 01:17 PM, Ed Avis wrote:

 If the new path for licence changes is well-thought-out and well-defined,
 why
 are we not using it now?

 I would love to, however if today 2/3 agree to the license change, we still
 need to get an OK from the remaining 1/3 to continue using their data
 because they have not signed up to any CT that would allow us to do so even
 if they are in the minority. Also, there is no binding definition on who is
 an active contributor (and thus has a right to vote). So this procedure
 really is only possible *after* everyone has signed up.

There's no mandate or binding definitions for many things today, yet
things (like license change) are happening, so I don't see a reason
why it should be impossible for the OSMF to assume this definition
(since it's well-thought-out) and follow that procedure.  I think it's
mostly a matter of good will.

One reason that I have to recognise for not doing a real vote, only
the new terms acceptation, is if OSMF thinks it's too much bother for
users and too many difficult to understand questions will bore people
who are really just interested in mapping.  But I think it *should* be
possible for every contributor to easily opt-in for a vote about all
the important things currently decided by LWG or the board, like
whether to stop accepting contributions under the old license, when,
and most importantly whether enough people have accepted the CT to
remove old data.  But I fear that this will be decided in a small
group similarly to the blocking of non-CT contributors in Apr.  The
original OSMF all-members vote basically asked if the OSMF should
proceed with such and such procedure but I would assume (and perhaps
not only me) that the intent of the voted question was should we
start and see how well it goes and at different points we look at it
and see if we still want to proceed.

Cheers

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[OSM-legal-talk] Swedish law of landscape information

2011-01-05 Thread Johan Jönsson

I am wondering if anyone have considered the laws of some countries, at
least Sweden, that states that maps and other forms of landscape
information should be reviewed before published. This of defense
considerations. Probably there is some limitation of the jurisdiction
that makes Swedish laws void for OSM.

I am asking because I´m downloading part of the OSM-data to my
computer. Thereby setting up a database of swedish landscape information
in Sweden, so the laws must apply to me. I have sent in an application
for a permit to keep the database and later on (when I got the
conversions working properly) will make some maps of the neighbourhood
for wikipedia.

If you already have a permit for the whole data-base, I wouldn´t have
to seek one myself.

The applicable law is:
Lag (1993:1742) om skydd för landskapsinformation
and regulation: 
Förordning (1993:1745) om skydd för landskapsinformation

Keep on the good work
/Johan Jönsson

p.s.
The swedish authority Lantmäteriet have started a nice project
Geodata.se in accordance with the European INSPIRE directive, hopefully
that will be of benefit for us later on.
d.s.

-- 
  Johan Jönsson
  joha...@fastmail.fm

-- 
http://www.fastmail.fm - One of many happy users:
  http://www.fastmail.fm/docs/quotes.html


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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] CTs and the 1 April deadline

2011-01-05 Thread Mike Collinson

I have provisionally added Francis' suggested wording but would like to run it 
by other License Working Group members. It may help NearMap and similar 
situations.

Here is the CT version that we are looking at formally releasing: 

https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1sC0SrG_R6OkRDdC3IJKlmDEn2pYTY2DZfcpSLFdiBBU

I am checking through it for any missed drafting snafus and would like to get 
in one further informal opinion, but hope to make a formal release very soon.

Mike

At 03:25 PM 5/01/2011, Francis Davey wrote:
To answer Robert's question. In my view clause 2 needs - and I hope
that it will include in its final version - a limitation that you only
grant a licence in respect of any rights that you have.

The aim (I believe) is this:

* the contributor licenses very broadly OSMF to permit them to use any
rights (in copyright or database right) that the contributor has in
the data contributed

* whether or not the contributor has any intellectual property rights
in the data contributed, they are asked not to contribute data if that
contribution would infringe someone else's IP rights, but they are
expressly told they don't have to guarantee that is the case (because
the contributor won't in general be a lawyer)

* OSMF promises to use data in a restricted set of ways (as set out in
clause 3 and 4).

In order for this to work as planned, clause 2 needs some words of
limitation eg and to the extent that you are able to do so.

I realise I owe a response to a much earlier question about whether
and to what extent contributing data that is later used in breach of
an IP right might impact on the contributor (short answer: I doubt
there's any risk). I'm just rather busy right now. Sorry.

-- 
Francis Davey

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] CTs and the 1 April deadline


Mike,


I have provisionally added Francis' suggested wording but would like
to run it by other License Working Group members. It may help NearMap
and similar situations.


The major change in all this, compared to the earlier versions, is the 
concept that you may now contribute data that is not re-licensable, 
right? I.e. while we require that you agree to the CT, you can still add 
data that is, say, some form of share-alike only which would then have 
to be removed later. Is that correct?


Question 1:

How would we, later, during some form of relicensing, know which is 
which? Is there some way, or even requirement, for the contributing user 
to tell us which license any derived material that he's contributing 
comes under?


Question 2:

Say we have a die-hard my contributions are mine alone person who 
wants to be asked for his ok in any future license change, thereby 
circumventing the usual if 2/3 of active mappers agree then your data 
remains in the new database rule.


Could someone, of that disposition, let's call him A, not simply do the 
following: Make a contract with person B that says Dear B, you may use 
my data but only under ODBL 1.0 and nothing else; then instruct B to 
upload the stuff to OSM. Now the data is in OSM, but in the event of any 
later license change, B (and therefore A) would have to be consulted.


Crucially, this restriction would also apply should A ever lose 
interest, or die, or be otherwise unreachable. This would effectively 
kill the whole reason why we have the license change rule in the first 
place.


Suggestion:

If my above thoughts are correct, and if this cannot be remedied - i.e. 
if we have to accept that there will always be fully CT compatible 
data and other, not relicensable without agreement from rights holder 
data - then may I suggest that we devise a way to flag such data in the 
database, and to somehow make the restricted-use data inert so that we 
don't (again, over the years) create a situation where many contributors 
erect their work on a foundation that may be taken away from them at any 
time?


I.e., when you upload something then you should explicitly say: What 
I'm uploading here is to the best of my knowledge free of rights of 
others, or you would say What I'm uploading here is compatible with 
OSM now but subject to third-party IP rights. In the latter case, 
others could either not edit your data at all (except of course deleting 
it), or they would at least see some kind of indication in their editor 
that basically tells them this data is not as free as we'd like it to 
be, and if they possess enough raw material to replace the data with 
something fully CT compatible, they should do so.


Bye
Frederik

--
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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] CTs and the 1 April deadline

Frederik Ramm frede...@... writes:

Could someone, of that disposition, let's call him A, not simply do the 
following: Make a contract with person B that says Dear B, you may use 
my data but only under ODBL 1.0 and nothing else; then instruct B to 
upload the stuff to OSM. Now the data is in OSM, but in the event of any 
later license change, B (and therefore A) would have to be consulted.

This does seem to be possible from a strictly legalistic point of view.

I think that in the CTs (as in other things) we should concentrate more on the
spirit of the agreement than on trying to armour-plate it in legalese.  It would
be better to have a free and obvious choice:

  (A) I am happy to license my data under the currently used licences, and I am
  also happy for the OSMF to relicense it in the future.  (I understand that
  the OSMF has agreed to hold a vote of active contributors in such a case.)

  (B) I will contribute data under the current licences but I would like to be
  asked again if some different licence is chosen in the future.  (I am 
aware
  that both CC-BY-SA and ODbL have upgrade clauses of various kinds, so it
  is possible for new versions of these licences to be published and used
  without requiring additional permission from me.)

Given such a choice and the appropriate community expectations, most people 
would
choose option (A) if they trust the OSMF to do the right thing.

-- 
Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com


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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] CTs and the 1 April deadline

On 6 January 2011 10:11, Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de wrote:
 This would not be better at all, it would render the whole idea of
 relicensing via Contributor Terms pointless.

This aregument you keep stating about people thinking the data is
owned by people isn't the full store, in fact I think it was Anthony
that pointed this out the other day about people collaborating on a
movie project and having a certain expectation about the licensing at
the end of it, however the CTs introduce, with respect to licensing,
an uncertainty about the license the project will operate in future.

Or to put this in context, how many people would contribute to a GPL
project that has a CT with a similar relicensing clause, meaning to
allow future contributors to make all kinds of licensing decisions on
behalf of those that laid the ground work to switch to a BSD license.

Grant and others keep going on about reading the spirit of the CT more
than the wording, but at present OSM uses a share a like license
(similar to GPL) but might switch to a PD/BSD license in future, this
uncertainty will turn many in the software world off, as I keep asking
why is the majority of OSM software so proudly offered under GPL and
not BSD if you want things to be future proofed?

Why is asking OSM(F) for some license certainty such a bad thing, it's
this kind of statement that would define if you like, the types of
people willing to contribute. Take for example Frederik's post a
couple of months ago about no longer contributing to OSM if it wasn't
even remotely possible for OSM to be PD in future. Then you have the
new sign up stats, I'm not sure how many have ticked the PD box, but
I'm guessing most don't bother to read what that tick box is for and
tick it because they're so used to I agree boxes at the bottom of
sign up forms, and not expecting that it does something completely
different.

Alternatively you also have SteveC who has made comments about not
supporting a change to a license without share a like.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Turn left restriction on two way highways

2011-01-05 Thread Pieren

On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 2:49 AM, Alan Mintz
alan_mintz+...@earthlink.netalan_mintz%2b...@earthlink.net
 wrote:

 highway=*_link implies oneway=yes
 junction=roundabout implies oneway=yes
 no layer tag implies layer=0
 no turn restriction at an intersection implies traffic can flow between the
 ways


You forgot :
no oneway tag implies oneway=no, excepted for roundabouts (statement about
*_link is criticized)
no highway=traffic_signals implies no traffic signals
no maxspeed implies default maxspeed as specified here:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Proposed/Defaults
or there:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_tags_for_routing/Maxspeed
etc
You cannot write not given Information is simply not yet entered

Pieren
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Re: [OSM-talk] What phones do OSMers have?


Hi,

(replying to my own message which was in reply to Dave F  Anthony)

On 01/04/11 15:17, Frederik Ramm wrote:

Second, there is neither a technical possibility to delete posts from
a mailing list, nor do we have any moderation policy in place. If we had
any moderation - something I always objected to -, then at least one of
you wouldn't be allowed to post here any more.


Make that two.

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] What phones do OSMers have?

2011-01-05 Thread Nick Whitelegg


-If you look at Android from the view point of the end user or the
hacker, it's quite closed. DRM, binary drivers, and the mobile
operators occasionally blocking tethering applications.

However, independent application developers with valid business models
love Android. Their applications aren't tied to a proprietary
operating system. There have been reports that it's even possible to
remove Google from the ecosystem, should they ever become evil.

TBH I think that hackers (as in open-source developers) can do quite a bit with 
Android too, as is evidenced by the large number of OSM applications available 
for it - as long as, presumably, they don't have to do anything too low-level. 
I myself intend to do some hacking with it and it looks like it will allow me 
to do what I want to do. I don't think a valid business model is needed. 
Compared with the ridiculously closed model of the iPhone, far, far more closed 
than desktop Windows ever was, Android is very open by comparison.

Nick
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Re: [OSM-talk] Turn left restriction on two way highways

2011-01-05 Thread Alan Mintz


At 2011-01-05 01:48, Pieren wrote:
no highway=traffic_signals implies
no traffic signals
I would argue that this is wrong for the vast majority of existing data.
Traffic signals are present only where people have placed them, while
there are millions of intersections that are the result of imports, which
are not tagged, but do have signals in reality. We need a tag for
uncontrolled as well as a way to tag 2-way (really anything
other than all-way according to wiki) stop-signs.
Currently, when I survey such an intersection, I'm tagging 
source=some_imagery;survey;image + 
source_ref=AM909_my_photo_# [;AM909_my_photo_#...] +

image_direction=direction_image_facing[;direction image
facing...]
to imply (to me) no signals for when we agree on tagging, but they could
still be (and often are) non-all-way-stops, so I guess means I'd have to
review the photos.

--
Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net



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Re: [OSM-talk] Turn left restriction on two way highways

2011/1/5 Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com:
 On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 6:08 AM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer
 dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
 I agree with Nic. AFAIK there are no defaults in OSM, not UK ones, and
 not others. Any not given Information is simply not yet entered.

 Are you not aware of this:

 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_tags_for_routing/Access-Restrictions


I am aware of this. Did you read the first paragraph?
Default is a proposal (not yet fully drafted, no RFC, no voting yet)
for a possible, upcomming default value system. This proposal may set
default access-restriction by area (countries, states...) if it
becomes general accepted practice.

IMHO besides from some exceptions like motorways there is currently no
generally accepted practice

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Turn left restriction on two way highways

2011/1/5 Pieren pier...@gmail.com:
 You cannot write not given Information is simply not yet entered


no?

not given Information is simply not yet entered

oops, I did it again

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] Turn left restriction on two way highways

2011-01-05 Thread Pieren

On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 5:39 PM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer
dieterdre...@gmail.comwrote:


 not given Information is simply not yet entered
 oops, I did it again



No problem ;-) You can write it 100 times, it does not make it the truth...

Pieren
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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] CTs and the 1 April deadline

2011-01-05 Thread ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen

Robert Whittaker (OSM) wrote:
Clause 2 requires contributors to make a large grant of IP rights
to OSMF on any content added to OSM. I believe that the intent
here is actually that you only grant OSMF the rights necessary
for them to act as described in clauses 3 and 4.

Agreed.

Lets now consider what rights are necessary for OSMF to act as
described in clauses 3 and 4. Since the data will be initially
distributed under CC-By-SA and ODbL, you must have sufficient
rights to allow the data you contribute to be distributed in this way.

Agreed.

Since there is also the possibility of OSM content later being
distributed under a license that requires no downstream attribution
or share-alike provisions

Agreed on share-alike.

Attribution: CT 4 could (and perhaps should) be more explicitly worded; I
have more confidence that it implies a downstream requirement than that it
doesn't, so I'm happy to agree to CT 1.2.2 and make contributions from (say)
CC-BY sources, but I'm aware that others may disagree.

[...]
So if the license you have data under contains share-alike or
viral-attribution clauses then you do not have the necessary rights
to grant to OSMF, and therefore it cannot be contributed under the
terms of clause 2.

Again, agreed on share-alike.

However, I'm not sure how clause 1 fits into this.
[...]
If it is meant to only cover the contributor's own IP rights in
the submitted contents, then I think the wording needs to be
clarified.

I like Francis's suggestion for such a clarification very much, and have
forwarded it to the LWG with a request that they consider it.

But then I'd be happy that you'd be able to use OS OpenData under
those CTs.

\o/

cheers
Richard

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View this message in context:
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Sent from the Legal Talk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Re: [OSM-talk] What phones do OSMers have?

2011-01-05 Thread Nic Roets

On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 12:38 PM, Nick Whitelegg
nick.whitel...@solent.ac.uk wrote:

-If you look at Android from the view point of the end user or the
hacker, it's quite closed. DRM, binary drivers, and the mobile
operators occasionally blocking tethering applications.

However, independent application developers with valid business models
love Android. Their applications aren't tied to a proprietary
operating system. There have been reports that it's even possible to
remove Google from the ecosystem, should they ever become evil.

 TBH I think that hackers (as in open-source developers) can do quite a bit 
 with Android too, as is evidenced by the large number of OSM applications 
 available for it - as long as, presumably, they don't have to do anything too 
 low-level. I myself intend to do some hacking with it and it looks like it 
 will allow me to do what I want to do. I don't think a valid business model 
 is needed. Compared with the ridiculously closed model of the iPhone, far, 
 far more closed than desktop Windows ever was, Android is very open by 
 comparison.

 Nick

I meant valid business model as in no malware, no piracy, no
violation of the terms of service of the mobile operator e.g.
tethering. Using a mobile phone to collect and verify mapping data is
definitely a valid business model, even if no money changes hands.

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[OSM-talk] What phone survey results

2011-01-05 Thread SteveC

Results from my crude little survey;

count   percentage
Android of some kind70  30%
Nokia   65  28%
iPhone  39  17%
Other   45  19%
Rim/Blackberry  5   2%
Windows Phone 7 4   2%
Palm4   2%

In response to the critique of the validity, feel free to go do a better job. I 
was just curious.

Steve

stevecoast.com


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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] CTs and the 1 April deadline

2011-01-05 Thread SteveC

very funny

On Jan 4, 2011, at 7:11 AM, Rob Myers wrote:

 On 04/01/11 15:05, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
 
 Peter Miller wrote:
 I will currently be one of the people locked out because I have used
 the Ordnance Survey open data which is apparently incompatible with
 the new license.
 
 OS OpenData is AIUI compatible with ODbL and the latest Contributor Terms.
 
 [citation needed]
 
 (http://fandomania.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/xfiles1.jpg)
 
 - Rob.
 
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Steve

stevecoast.com


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Re: [OSM-talk] What phone survey results

2011-01-05 Thread Lester Caine


SteveC wrote:

In response to the critique of the validity, feel free to go do a better job. I 
was just curious.


One thing that it does not show is what OS is being used. 'nokia' covers several 
options, and I'm finding my N900 is actually quite a nice linux computer ...


--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk//
Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php

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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] ondergrondse parkeergarages

2011-01-05 Thread Peter

Dat is inderdaad lastig, zeker als er boven de garage ook nog eens
winkels/huizen/paden/wegen te vinden zijn. En al helemaal als daar
were boven ook nog... achja.
Jouw tags kloppen op zich wel, maar het is bijna onmogelijk om zoiets
goed te renderen.
In Almere hebben we ook zoiets (3 lagen), De Citadel, en ook deze
wordt slecht gerenderd. Maar Google en Bing doen het slechter.
Het is een bekend probleem dat het erg lastig is om een 3d-omgeving op
een kaart te zetten, maar het moet wel kunnen.
Je wilt tenslotte kunnen navigeren tussen ondergronde winkels,
bovengronde winkels, huizen, garages en voetpaden, anders is je kaart
incompleet...

Peter

Op 5 januari 2011 18:27 heeft Jeroen Muris jer...@tweejee.net het
volgende geschreven:
 Collega’s,

 Recent is er een ondergrondse parkeergarage bij mij in de buurt [1]
 voltooid. Deze heb ik in eerste instantie getagd met
 “amenity=parking,parking=underground,name=Museumpark,building=yes,layer=-1”.
 Dit op basis van wat ik elders vond [3], al twijfel ik over de “layer=-1”
 [4].

 Ik ben er echter niet helemaal gelukkig mee, mede omdat (in ieder geval in
 de standaard Mapnik en Osmarender lagen) als een normaal gebouw gerenderd
 wordt, zonder indicatie dat het ondergronds is. Ik vind echter wel dat dit
 setje tags de situatie correct beschrijft. Bij een nabijgelegen
 parkeergarage [2] doet zich dezelfde situatie voor. Daar is ooit door iemand
 ook de tag “tunnel=yes” gebruikt.

 a) Wat is de beste set tags voor een ondergrondse parkeergarage? Heb ik iets
 over het hoofd gezien?
 b) En als deze niet de gewenste rendering opleveren, wat is dan de weg om
 dat te (laten) verbeteren?

 Dank, en groet,

 J-.

 Jeroen Muris

 [1]
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.913324lon=4.471326zoom=18layers=M
 [2]
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.920737lon=4.473611zoom=18layers=M
 [3] o.a. http://tagwatch.stoecker.eu/Netherlands/En/tags.html,
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Parking en
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:amenity%3Dparking
 [4] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:layer
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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] ondergrondse parkeergarages

Dit is een principieel probleem met 2D of 2.5D 
kaarten/databases. 
Ik denk dat OSM -als het de licentietroubles overleeft-
wel een betere support voor 3D kan gebruiken en zal krijgen.

Gert

-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: talk-nl-boun...@openstreetmap.org 
[mailto:talk-nl-boun...@openstreetmap.org] Namens Peter
Verzonden: woensdag 5 januari 2011 19:13
Aan: OpenStreetMap NL discussion list
Onderwerp: Re: [OSM-talk-nl] ondergrondse parkeergarages

Dat is inderdaad lastig, zeker als er boven de garage ook nog eens 
winkels/huizen/paden/wegen te vinden zijn. En al helemaal als daar were boven 
ook nog... achja.
Jouw tags kloppen op zich wel, maar het is bijna onmogelijk om zoiets goed te 
renderen.
In Almere hebben we ook zoiets (3 lagen), De Citadel, en ook deze wordt slecht 
gerenderd. Maar Google en Bing doen het slechter.
Het is een bekend probleem dat het erg lastig is om een 3d-omgeving op een 
kaart te zetten, maar het moet wel kunnen.
Je wilt tenslotte kunnen navigeren tussen ondergronde winkels, bovengronde 
winkels, huizen, garages en voetpaden, anders is je kaart incompleet...

Peter

Op 5 januari 2011 18:27 heeft Jeroen Muris jer...@tweejee.net het volgende 
geschreven:
 Collega’s,

 Recent is er een ondergrondse parkeergarage bij mij in de buurt [1] 
 voltooid. Deze heb ik in eerste instantie getagd met 
 “amenity=parking,parking=underground,name=Museumpark,building=yes,layer=-1”.
 Dit op basis van wat ik elders vond [3], al twijfel ik over de “layer=-1”
 [4].

 Ik ben er echter niet helemaal gelukkig mee, mede omdat (in ieder 
 geval in de standaard Mapnik en Osmarender lagen) als een normaal 
 gebouw gerenderd wordt, zonder indicatie dat het ondergronds is. Ik 
 vind echter wel dat dit setje tags de situatie correct beschrijft. Bij 
 een nabijgelegen parkeergarage [2] doet zich dezelfde situatie voor. 
 Daar is ooit door iemand ook de tag “tunnel=yes” gebruikt.

 a) Wat is de beste set tags voor een ondergrondse parkeergarage? Heb 
 ik iets over het hoofd gezien?
 b) En als deze niet de gewenste rendering opleveren, wat is dan de weg 
 om dat te (laten) verbeteren?

 Dank, en groet,

 J-.

 Jeroen Muris

 [1]
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.913324lon=4.471326zoom=18layer
 s=M
 [2]
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.920737lon=4.473611zoom=18layer
 s=M [3] o.a. http://tagwatch.stoecker.eu/Netherlands/En/tags.html,
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Parking en 
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:amenity%3Dparking
 [4] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:layer
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[OSM-talk-nl] Nieuwjaarsborrel!

2011-01-05 Thread Floris Looijesteijn

Zoals beloofd!

Volgende week zondag 16 januari is er een nieuwjaarsborrel in Hilversum.
Deel je plannen voor 2011 met al je map lotgenoten onder het genot van een
drankje.

The place to be:

Cafe Dudok
Larenseweg 1a
1221 CH Hilversum
52.2274, 5.1821

We beginnen om 14.00 en zien wel hoe laat het wordt.

Er is gratis Wifi beschikbaar maar we willen natuurlijk niet iedereen
achter z'n laptop zien zitten! :)

Op de wiki kun je laten weten of je er bij bent:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Netherlands_Mapping_Parties_2011#OpenStreetMap_Nieuwjaarsborrel_2011

Groet,
Floris Looijesteijn
Nieuwjaarsborrel organisatiecomité

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Re: [talk-au] Australia Post finds new routes around floods

2011-01-05 Thread Elizabeth Dodd

On Wed, 5 Jan 2011 14:35:06 +1000
John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote:

 Flooding has disrupted mail deliveries in Queensland.
 
 http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/01/05/3106734.htm
 
 I guess it might be useful after all to tag flood prone roads:
 
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:flood_prone
 

so you just download Qld and tag the lot??

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Re: [talk-au] Australia Post finds new routes around floods

On 5 January 2011 18:20, Elizabeth Dodd ed...@billiau.net wrote:
 so you just download Qld and tag the lot??

Heh, seems that way, the vacant lot near by has been a nesting ground
for ducks and they go for swims in the puddles that don't seem to want
to dry up.

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[talk-au] Flood prone areas

2011-01-05 Thread Craig Feuerherdt

John,

Would it not be better to map the extent of the flood plain rather than tag
individual road segments? I know they have mapped the 'floodplain' across
Victoria and then categorised it into probabilities ie 1:5, 1:10, 1:20, 1:50
and 1:100 chance of flood. Obviously its another thing getting data out of
State departments but I would have thought this was a better way to go.

I agree there are valid cases where flood_prone=yes is an appropriate tag
for a road segment although at what level do you do this ie an individual
node on a road if it goes through a dip with a depth gauge through to a
segment if there is a long stretch of low road.

Craig

Flooding has disrupted mail deliveries in Queensland.


 http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/01/05/3106734.htm


 I guess it might be useful after all to tag flood prone roads:



http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:flood_prone
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:flood_prone
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Re: [talk-au] Flood prone areas

On 6 January 2011 07:10, Craig Feuerherdt craigfeuerhe...@gmail.com wrote:
 John,
 Would it not be better to map the extent of the flood plain rather than tag
 individual road segments? I know they have mapped the 'floodplain' across
 Victoria and then categorised it into probabilities ie 1:5, 1:10, 1:20, 1:50
 and 1:100 chance of flood. Obviously its another thing getting data out of
 State departments but I would have thought this was a better way to go.
 I agree there are valid cases where flood_prone=yes is an appropriate tag
 for a road segment although at what level do you do this ie an individual
 node on a road if it goes through a dip with a depth gauge through to a
 segment if there is a long stretch of low road.

I have nothing against using polygons, however the reason I wrote a
tag with respect to roads is this information is more readily
available to those doing surveys in the form of the water height
markers.

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Re: [talk-au] Suburb - Bal

On 6 January 2011 11:07, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote:
  On 6/01/2011 2:48 AM, John Smith wrote:

 +1
 Most people most of the time don't tend to care to much for/about the
 ABS boundaries, I was doing a fair bit of work importing postcodes
 previously, however it might be better to trash most of the ABS data
 and import a new set when it comes out, obviously this would need to
 be done very carefully so as not to remove any useful information
 people may have added since.

 How do the ABS boundaries differ from postcode boundaries?

The ABS boundaries seem to be approximations, I'm overly familiar with
one postcode delivery area and the ABS boundary doesn't match.

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Re: [talk-au] Flood prone areas

2011-01-05 Thread waldo000...@gmail.com

On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 10:10 PM, Craig Feuerherdt craigfeuerhe...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 Would it not be better to map the extent of the flood plain rather than tag
 individual road segments?


But within a flood plain, some roads may be prone to flooding while others
may be protected (e.g. raised, with good drainage underneath, etc.). I would
have thought that both tagging methods (plains vs roads) could be useful in
different situations.
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Re: [talk-au] Flood prone areas

On 6 January 2011 16:40, waldo000...@gmail.com waldo000...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 10:10 PM, Craig Feuerherdt
 craigfeuerhe...@gmail.com wrote:

 Would it not be better to map the extent of the flood plain rather than
 tag individual road segments?

 But within a flood plain, some roads may be prone to flooding while others
 may be protected (e.g. raised, with good drainage underneath, etc.). I would
 have thought that both tagging methods (plains vs roads) could be useful in
 different situations.

I guess this is where things like the NASA DEMs would come in handy...

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Re: [Talk-br] Importação dos dados da prefeitura d e Goiânia

2011-01-05 Thread Bráulio

Acho que você pode usar a tag is_in. Mas se você tiver os limites dos
bairros e conjuntos residenciais mapeados, isso não é necessário. O
Nominatim já vai saber que a rua está dentro do bairro. Se tiver só os POIs,
então é bom colocar as tags, pois eu acho que o Nominatim vai usá-las para
não usar a estratégia simplificada de ligar a rua ao POI de bairro mais
próximo.

2011/1/5 Flávio Henrique yoshi...@gmail.com

 Pessoal, boa noite!

 Como os dados de Goiânia são relativamente completos, ao tratá-los
 deparei-me com a seguinte dúvida: devo dividir as vias por bairro?

 É que as vias possuem a informação do bairro ao qual elas pertencem. Como
 há vias que passam por vários bairros, devo ter um segmento de via para cada
 bairro e colocar o nome do bairro em alguma tag (se é que tag para bairro
 existe - se sim, favor me informar) ? Informar o bairro faz diferença para
 roteamento? Ou devo deixar apenas uma via, independente dos bairros que ela
 atravessa?

 O que acham?

 Flávio Henrique

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Re: [Talk-br] Importação dos dados da prefeitura d e Goiânia

Os dados que tenho aqui possuem até os postes de energia elétrica da
concessionária. rs...

Bom, como eu tenho os dados dos bairros também (limites/boundaries) vou
deixar as vias sem divisão. Depois trato os bairros.

Aproveitando a conversa, pergunto: mês passado passei alguns dias no Ceará
de férias e o amigo que estava comigo tinha um GPS (mas não sei qual) e foi
muito bom. O aparelho nos deixava em frente ao estabelecimento que
queríamos. Isso se dá pelos POIS ou por quadra/lote ? Se eu tratar os dados
das quadra e lotes que tenho aqui o osm será capaz de calcular uma rota e
nos deixar em frente a casa de alguém só informando a rua/quadra/lote ?

Obrigado!

PS: Eu preciso comprar logo um celular com gps pra eu testar o osm. rs...

Flávio Henrique


2011/1/5 Bráulio brauliobeze...@gmail.com

 Acho que você pode usar a tag is_in. Mas se você tiver os limites dos
 bairros e conjuntos residenciais mapeados, isso não é necessário. O
 Nominatim já vai saber que a rua está dentro do bairro. Se tiver só os POIs,
 então é bom colocar as tags, pois eu acho que o Nominatim vai usá-las para
 não usar a estratégia simplificada de ligar a rua ao POI de bairro mais
 próximo.

 2011/1/5 Flávio Henrique yoshi...@gmail.com

  Pessoal, boa noite!

 Como os dados de Goiânia são relativamente completos, ao tratá-los
 deparei-me com a seguinte dúvida: devo dividir as vias por bairro?

 É que as vias possuem a informação do bairro ao qual elas pertencem. Como
 há vias que passam por vários bairros, devo ter um segmento de via para cada
 bairro e colocar o nome do bairro em alguma tag (se é que tag para bairro
 existe - se sim, favor me informar) ? Informar o bairro faz diferença para
 roteamento? Ou devo deixar apenas uma via, independente dos bairros que ela
 atravessa?

 O que acham?

 Flávio Henrique

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Re: [Talk-br] Importação dos dados da prefeitura d e Goiânia

2011-01-05 Thread Claudomiro Nascimento Junior

A precisão do endereço depende da precisão da numeração na base. Existe
essa informação de numeração nos dados a serem importados?

[]s

2011/1/5 Flávio Henrique yoshi...@gmail.com

 Os dados que tenho aqui possuem até os postes de energia elétrica da
 concessionária. rs...

 Bom, como eu tenho os dados dos bairros também (limites/boundaries) vou
 deixar as vias sem divisão. Depois trato os bairros.

 Aproveitando a conversa, pergunto: mês passado passei alguns dias no Ceará
 de férias e o amigo que estava comigo tinha um GPS (mas não sei qual) e foi
 muito bom. O aparelho nos deixava em frente ao estabelecimento que
 queríamos. Isso se dá pelos POIS ou por quadra/lote ? Se eu tratar os dados
 das quadra e lotes que tenho aqui o osm será capaz de calcular uma rota e
 nos deixar em frente a casa de alguém só informando a rua/quadra/lote ?

 Obrigado!

 PS: Eu preciso comprar logo um celular com gps pra eu testar o osm. rs...

 Flávio Henrique


 2011/1/5 Bráulio brauliobeze...@gmail.com

 Acho que você pode usar a tag is_in. Mas se você tiver os limites dos
 bairros e conjuntos residenciais mapeados, isso não é necessário. O
 Nominatim já vai saber que a rua está dentro do bairro. Se tiver só os POIs,
 então é bom colocar as tags, pois eu acho que o Nominatim vai usá-las para
 não usar a estratégia simplificada de ligar a rua ao POI de bairro mais
 próximo.

 2011/1/5 Flávio Henrique yoshi...@gmail.com

  Pessoal, boa noite!

 Como os dados de Goiânia são relativamente completos, ao tratá-los
 deparei-me com a seguinte dúvida: devo dividir as vias por bairro?

 É que as vias possuem a informação do bairro ao qual elas pertencem. Como
 há vias que passam por vários bairros, devo ter um segmento de via para cada
 bairro e colocar o nome do bairro em alguma tag (se é que tag para bairro
 existe - se sim, favor me informar) ? Informar o bairro faz diferença para
 roteamento? Ou devo deixar apenas uma via, independente dos bairros que ela
 atravessa?

 O que acham?

 Flávio Henrique

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Re: [Talk-br] Importação dos dados da prefeitura d e Goiânia

2011/1/5 Claudomiro Nascimento Junior claudom...@claudomiro.com

 A precisão do endereço depende da precisão da numeração na base. Existe
 essa informação de numeração nos dados a serem importados?

 []s


Você quer dizer o número da quadra e lote? Sim.
Número na rua (como km em rodovias) não.

Flávio Henrique
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Re: [Talk-br] Importação dos dados da prefeitura d e Goiânia

2011/1/5 Bráulio brauliobeze...@gmail.com

 Acho que você pode usar a tag is_in. Mas se você tiver os limites dos
 bairros e conjuntos residenciais mapeados, isso não é necessário. O
 Nominatim já vai saber que a rua está dentro do bairro. Se tiver só os POIs,
 então é bom colocar as tags, pois eu acho que o Nominatim vai usá-las para
 não usar a estratégia simplificada de ligar a rua ao POI de bairro mais
 próximo.


Alguém poderia me passar algum exemplo de limites de bairro já carregados,
para que eu possa me espelhar nas tags necessárias e trabalhar os limites
que eu tenho aqui?

Grato.

Flávio Henrique

There are only 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand
binary, and those who don't

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Re: [Talk-br] Importação dos dados da prefeitura d e Goiânia

Bráulio e demais, boa noite!

Abaixo está o link para os limites dos bairros de Goiânia. Por gentileza,
verifiquem se estou no caminho certo. Se falta algo. Se algo está errado. O
que for.

Bráulio, é isso que você chamou de 'limite dos bairros' abaixo? É isso que
vai ajudar no mapeamento de um endereço ao buscar uma rua em em bairro
específico?

Eu notei que depois de importar, tratar os dados e rodar o plugin Validation
(JOSM), percebi que 8 bairros ficaram como 'untagged ways'. Parece que a
role 'outer' desses bairros ficaram sem nome. Não entendi a razão, nem como
resolver isso. Peço, também neste caso, que ajudem-me a consertar isso.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=XC0CRIVT

Grato!

Flávio Henrique

There are only 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand
binary, and those who don't



2011/1/5 Bráulio brauliobeze...@gmail.com

 Acho que você pode usar a tag is_in. Mas se você tiver os limites dos
 bairros e conjuntos residenciais mapeados, isso não é necessário. O
 Nominatim já vai saber que a rua está dentro do bairro. Se tiver só os POIs,
 então é bom colocar as tags, pois eu acho que o Nominatim vai usá-las para
 não usar a estratégia simplificada de ligar a rua ao POI de bairro mais
 próximo.

 2011/1/5 Flávio Henrique yoshi...@gmail.com

  Pessoal, boa noite!

 Como os dados de Goiânia são relativamente completos, ao tratá-los
 deparei-me com a seguinte dúvida: devo dividir as vias por bairro?

 É que as vias possuem a informação do bairro ao qual elas pertencem. Como
 há vias que passam por vários bairros, devo ter um segmento de via para cada
 bairro e colocar o nome do bairro em alguma tag (se é que tag para bairro
 existe - se sim, favor me informar) ? Informar o bairro faz diferença para
 roteamento? Ou devo deixar apenas uma via, independente dos bairros que ela
 atravessa?

 O que acham?

 Flávio Henrique


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Re: [Talk-br] Importação dos dados da prefeitura d e Goiânia

2011/1/5 Flávio Henrique yoshi...@gmail.com

 Eu notei que depois de importar, tratar os dados e rodar o plugin
 Validation (JOSM), percebi que 8 bairros ficaram como 'untagged ways'.
 Parece que a role 'outer' desses bairros ficaram sem nome. Não entendi a
 razão, nem como resolver isso. Peço, também neste caso, que ajudem-me a
 consertar isso.


Os problemas acima foram corrigidos.
Novo arquivo no link: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=N6SOMXXZ

Obrigado!

Flávio Henrique
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Re: [Talk-de] AIO fehlt völlig

2011-01-05 Thread Peter Wendorff


Am 05.01.2011 02:44, schrieb fla...@googlemail.com:

Es wäre optimal, wenn sich ein AiO-Styleverantwortlicher finden könnte. 
Vorraussetzungen wären mkgmapstyle- und typfiles bearbeiten zu können. Schön 
wäre noch mit git klarzukommen (ich weiß das ist erstmal ne Hürde, aber man 
kommt rein - ehrlich!)

Github hab ich dann irgendwann ja auch hinbekommen. Gabs da nicht mal
in/um/bei München ne Dame die sich damit auskannte ?


PS: Der AIOTM (All-in-One-TileManager) ist auf dem besten Weg! Ich bin richtig 
zuversichtlich das noch diesen Monat hinzukriegen.

Netter Name ;-)


*kopfkratz*
wenn Du noch einen draufsetzen willst (auf den Namen), und
wenn der irgendwann mal die Karte direkt aufs Navi überträgt, könnte man 
es gleich also All-in-One-Live-Installer = Aioli bezeichnen :D


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Re: [Talk-de] DataIntegrityProblemException, Fehlermeldung JOSM (Vers 3772)

2011-01-05 Thread Dieter Jasper


Am 05.01.2011 08:03, schrieb André Joost:

Am 05.01.11 00:12, schrieb Dieter Jasper:

Hallo,
habe beim Arbeiten mit JOSM 2x eine Fehlermeldung bekommen (siehe auch
Ticket 5811).

Vielleicht ist es ja auch kein Fehler des Editors.


Vermutlich. Wäre wichtig zu wissen, welche Daten du eingelesen hast.



Die Fehlermeldungen bekam ich bei 'Upload data'.
Es könnte aber sein, dass ich vorher ' versehentlich 'Update data' 
angwählt hatte. Könnte das zu der Fehlermeldung geführt haben?

Konnte nach der Fehlermeldung problemlos mit JOSM weiter arbeiten



Über Datei/Objekt herunterladen per ID klappt es jedenfalls bei beiden
Wegen.

Wenn du die Wege auf andere Art und Weise lädst, ist Daten
aktualisieren vor dem Hochladen hilfreich.


siehe weiter oben




Auschnitt aus den Fehlermeldungen:

org.openstreetmap.josm.data.osm.DataIntegrityProblemException: Primitive
must be part of the dataset: {Way id=93311378 version=1 MVT nodes=[{Node
id=1081930563 version=1 V
lat=18.11688227212974,lon=-15.969192490913775}, {Node id=1081930533
version=1 V lat=18.116593551843174,lon=-15.970174637460557}]}



Wieso ist der residential nirgendwo mit der Außenwelt verbunden?



Weil ich mit dem Bereich noch nicht fertig bin. Erstelle erstmal eine 
Grobstrukur, der am besten sichtbaren Straßenverläufe. Sind 
'freihängende' ways denn ein Problem?


Gruß
Dieter Jasper


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Re: [Talk-de] DataIntegrityProblemException, Fehlermeldung JOSM (Vers 3772)

2011-01-05 Thread André Joost


Am 05.01.11 10:01, schrieb Dieter Jasper:

Am 05.01.2011 08:03, schrieb André Joost:

Am 05.01.11 00:12, schrieb Dieter Jasper:

Hallo,
habe beim Arbeiten mit JOSM 2x eine Fehlermeldung bekommen (siehe auch
Ticket 5811).

Vielleicht ist es ja auch kein Fehler des Editors.


Vermutlich. Wäre wichtig zu wissen, welche Daten du eingelesen hast.



Die Fehlermeldungen bekam ich bei 'Upload data'.
Es könnte aber sein, dass ich vorher ' versehentlich 'Update data'
angwählt hatte. Könnte das zu der Fehlermeldung geführt haben?


Hast du den Weg in der josm-Sitzung neu angelegt, mit josm die Daten auf 
dem üblichen Weg per Rechteckauswahl heruntergeladen, oder aus einem 
Extrakt? Bei letzteren kann es schon mal solche Probleme geben, wenn 
Knoten eines Weges fehlen.



Konnte nach der Fehlermeldung problemlos mit JOSM weiter arbeiten



Nicht reproduzierbare Fehler sind schwer zu beheben ;-)




Wieso ist der residential nirgendwo mit der Außenwelt verbunden?



Weil ich mit dem Bereich noch nicht fertig bin. Erstelle erstmal eine
Grobstrukur, der am besten sichtbaren Straßenverläufe. Sind
'freihängende' ways denn ein Problem?


Im Endzustand schon. Östlich vom zweiten Weg gibt es ein Wohngebiet, wo 
sich einige Wege ohne gemeinsamen Knotenpunkt kreuzen. Das sollte nach 
Möglichkeit auch nicht so bleiben.


Gruß,
André Joost




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Re: [Talk-de] Wo sind weiße Flecken?

Am 5. Januar 2011 08:51 schrieb Bernd Wurst be...@bwurst.org:
 Am Dienstag 04 Januar 2011, 19:23:55 schrieb M∡rtin Koppenhoefer:
 und jetzt? Wollen wir jetzt gemeinsam über ein Gebiet spekulieren, von
 dem wir beide keine Ahnung haben? Gerade Tracks sind in manchen
 Gegenden ohne vor Ort zu sein praktisch nicht von Straßen zu
 unterscheiden.

 Come on werd sachlich.
 Wie viele Wohngebiete kennst du in Deutschland die mit Tracks erschossen sind?


ich meinte auch nicht die Erschließungsstraßen (zu denen habe ich Dir
eine gated community in Deutschland gepostet, wo der Zugang selbst für
Fußgänger ohne Berechtigung nicht frei ist). Es gibt viele Tracks, die
an Wohngebieten vorbeiführen, und im Luftbild nicht von Straßen zu
unterscheiden sind.

Klar, man kann immer raten, was ein unbekanntes Objekt / Straße etc.
ist, die Vermutung erstmal eintragen, und darauf warten, dass die
cloud es dann richtet. Komisch finde ich bei diesem Gedanken nur, dass
man gleichzeitig der cloud nicht zutraut, aus den Roads nach Begehung
Straßen zu machen.

Gruß Martin

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[Talk-de] Ausgebingt?

2011-01-05 Thread Wolfgang

Hallo,

ich bekomme nur noch error loading Bing attribution data in josm für die 
bing-Bilder. Die normale Bing-Karte in Firefox läuft aber.

Wird irgendwo geschraubt, oder wars das?

Gruß, Wolfgang

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Re: [Talk-de] Ausgebingt?

2011-01-05 Thread Wolfgang

Hallo,
Am Mittwoch 05 Januar 2011 10:58:37 schrieb Wolfgang:
 Hallo,
 
 ich bekomme nur noch error loading Bing attribution data in josm für die
 bing-Bilder. Die normale Bing-Karte in Firefox läuft aber.
 
 Wird irgendwo geschraubt, oder wars das?
 

Kommando zurück, scheint wieder zu gehen.

Zwischenspeicher löschen und restart.

Warum auch immer.

Gruß, Wolfgang

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Re: [Talk-de] Ausgebingt?

2011-01-05 Thread Christian Knorr

Am Mittwoch 05 Januar 2011, um 10:58:37 schrieb Wolfgang:
 Hallo,
 
 ich bekomme nur noch error loading Bing attribution data in josm für die
 bing-Bilder. Die normale Bing-Karte in Firefox läuft aber.
Bei mir sind sie drin. JOSM 3772. Die Bilddienst-URL ist bing:bing

MfG, Chris...

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Re: [Talk-de] Reit- und Wanderkarte - Jahresrückblick

2011-01-05 Thread hike39

Hallo Nop,
danke, bin nun anscheinend fündig geworden. Bin dabei über den
Menuepunkt Verzeichnisse - Wanderwege gegangen. Allerdings hat es mich
etwas verwundert, dass dort dann ein Gesamtverzeichnis aller Wanderwege
aufgebaut wird, auch wenn ich mich z.B. nur für jene in Rheinland-Pfalz
interessiere. Vielleicht wäre es besser hier eine Zwischenstufe mit
einer Auswahl der Kategorien anzubieten und dann erst die dazugehörigen
Wanderwege auszuwerfen.

Da ich Wandermöglichkeiten von Bad Kreuznach nach Deidesheim suche, habe
ich in der Auflistung dann den Fernwanderweg Donnersberg - Donon
ausgewählt. Ein Klick darauf öffnete zwar eine Karte der Region, aber in
dem Gewusel dort, kann man nichts von diesem entdecken.

Daher habe ich die dementsprechende Relation runtergeladen. Bin in den
Routeneditor und wollte diese wieder laden. Ergebnis: Upload
fehlgeschlagen, Fehler: relation_405650.gpx zu lang.

Welche Möglichkeiten hat man noch den Wanderweg hervorzuheben?

BTW: Bei der Auflistung der Relationen werden die Umlaute nicht richtig
angezeigt.

Gruß
hike39

Am 04.01.2011 18:05, schrieb NopMap:
 
 
 hike39 wrote:

 auf ein Wegeverzeichnis
 verwiesen. Dieses habe ich noch nicht finden können. Kannst Du mir
 sagen, wo dieses versteckt ist?
 
 Ist jetzt wieder neben der Karte verlinkt. War irgendwie runtergefallen. :-)
 
 bye
  Nop
 


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Re: [Talk-de] Wo sind weiße Flecken?

2011-01-05 Thread Bernd Wurst

Am Mittwoch 05 Januar 2011, 10:46:46 schrieb M∡rtin Koppenhoefer:
 Komisch finde ich bei diesem Gedanken nur, dass
 man gleichzeitig der cloud nicht zutraut, aus den Roads nach Begehung
 Straßen zu machen.

Der gemeine Navi-Nutzer (und das ist ofenbar der einzige der manche 
gottverlassenen Gegenden jemals aufsucht) kann sagen huch, das ist doch gar 
keine richtige Straße oder er kann sagen Ich sollte laut Navi gegen eine 
Einbahnstraße fahren. Beides sind Dinge die *fallen auf* wenn man einem Navi 
folgt.

Wenn gleich gar keine Straße da ist, die Route dadurch offensichtliche Käse 
ist, dann wird das Navi beiseite gelegt, kurz geflucht und manuell gefahren.


Der zentrale Punkt an meiner Vorgehensweise ist, dass ich nicht damit rechnen 
will, dass in absehbarer Zeit irgendjemand mit Mapper-Engagement in diesen 
Gegenden sein wird. Sonst wäre dort nämlich schon heute was erfasst.

Kleine Fehler kann jeder Verbessern, neue Straße einzeichnen oder undefinierte 
Straßen klassifizieren, das ist Mapper-Arbeit.

Gruß, Bernd

-- 
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Preussen anstatt Kühe zu halten...  -  Süddeutsche Zeitung


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Re: [Talk-de] Wo sind weiße Flecken?

2011-01-05 Thread Bernd Wurst

Am Mittwoch 05 Januar 2011, 10:46:46 schrieb M∡rtin Koppenhoefer:
 ich meinte auch nicht die Erschließungsstraßen (zu denen habe ich Dir
 eine gated community in Deutschland gepostet, wo der Zugang selbst für
 Fußgänger ohne Berechtigung nicht frei ist).

Auf dem betreffenden Luftbild habe ich keinerlei Zufahrtsstraße gefunden die 
mit der Außenwelt verbunden ist. Da wäre ich beim Luftbild skeptisch geworden, 
ja.

Gruß, Bernd

-- 
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Re: [Talk-de] DataIntegrityProblemException, Fehlermeldung JOSM (Vers 3772)

2011-01-05 Thread Dieter Jasper


Am 05.01.2011 10:19, schrieb André Joost:



Hast du den Weg in der josm-Sitzung neu angelegt, mit josm die Daten auf
dem üblichen Weg per Rechteckauswahl heruntergeladen, oder aus einem
Extrakt? Bei letzteren kann es schon mal solche Probleme geben, wenn
Knoten eines Weges fehlen.


Über die Rechteckauswahl


Konnte nach der Fehlermeldung problemlos mit JOSM weiter arbeiten



Nicht reproduzierbare Fehler sind schwer zu beheben ;-)




Wieso ist der residential nirgendwo mit der Außenwelt verbunden?



Weil ich mit dem Bereich noch nicht fertig bin. Erstelle erstmal eine
Grobstrukur, der am besten sichtbaren Straßenverläufe. Sind
'freihängende' ways denn ein Problem?


Im Endzustand schon. Östlich vom zweiten Weg gibt es ein Wohngebiet, wo
sich einige Wege ohne gemeinsamen Knotenpunkt kreuzen. Das sollte nach
Möglichkeit auch nicht so bleiben.


Das wird auch nicht so bleiben. Der Winter ist noch lang.





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Re: [Talk-de] Reit- und Wanderkarte - Jahresrückblick

2011-01-05 Thread Rainer Kluge


Hallo,
Am 05.01.2011 08:11, schrieb André Joost:

Am 04.01.11 23:25, schrieb Sven Geggus:



Was anderes ist mir noch aufgefallen. Warum wird dennd er GR20 auf
korsika nicht gerendert?



Der schlummert noch in der Warteliste:


Nur am Rande und off-topic:

Nach Auffassung der FFRP (Fédération française de randonnée pedestre) sind die 
GR-Wegen deren geistiges Eigentum und diese dürfen daher nicht in OSM erfasst 
werden. Auf Anfragen der französischen OSM-Community hat die FFRP bislang nicht 
reagiert: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/FR:Hiking


Das bezieht sich natürlich nicht auf die Wege selbst, sondern auf die Verwendung 
der Bezeichnung GR xx und das Zusammenfassen von Wegen zu einer Relation. Die 
Relation 101692 steht ganz eindeutig im Widerspruch zur Auffassung der FFRP.


Auf comp.gis.openstreetmap.region.fr gibt es immer mal wieder Threads zu diesem 
Thema, die bisher immer diese Auffassung bestätigt haben.


Grüße
Rainer


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Re: [Talk-de] Was ist in OSM eine Autobahn?

Am 5. Januar 2011 02:34 schrieb Tirkon tirko...@yahoo.de:
 Bis dahin würde ich zum trunk plus motorroad=yes tendieren, weil die
 sonstige Beschilderung und auch das Ausfahrtschild gelb ist.

ja, am Anfang der Serie würde ich auch trunk und motorroad taggen, ist
ja auch so beschildert:

http://autobahnbilder.eu/images/A60%20Ri%20Wittlich/Bild%20477.jpg
http://autobahnbilder.eu/images/A60%20Ri%20Wittlich/Bild%20490.jpg
(Autobahnschild explizit durchgestrichen, gelbe Schilder)

ab hier ist es aber m.E. klar Autobahn (blaue Schilder, etc.)
http://autobahnbilder.eu/images/A60%20Ri%20Wittlich/Bild%20497.jpg
bzw.
http://autobahnbilder.eu/images/A60%20Ri%20Wittlich/Bild%20499.jpg

wobei der Motorroad-bereich temporär aussieht, gelbe
Fahrbahn-Markierungen, etc., das soll vermutlich nicht ewig so
bleiben.

Gruß Martin

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Re: [Talk-de] Reit- und Wanderkarte - Jahresrückblick

2011-01-05 Thread André Joost


Am 05.01.11 11:32, schrieb Rainer Kluge:


Nur am Rande und off-topic:

Nach Auffassung der FFRP (Fédération française de randonnée pedestre)
sind die GR-Wegen deren geistiges Eigentum und diese dürfen daher nicht
in OSM erfasst werden. Auf Anfragen der französischen OSM-Community hat
die FFRP bislang nicht reagiert:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/FR:Hiking

Das bezieht sich natürlich nicht auf die Wege selbst, sondern auf die
Verwendung der Bezeichnung GR xx und das Zusammenfassen von Wegen zu
einer Relation. Die Relation 101692 steht ganz eindeutig im Widerspruch
zur Auffassung der FFRP.



Deshalb hat nop sie ja auch ganz unauffällig unter Italien einsortiert ;-)

Gruß,
André Joost


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Re: [Talk-de] ?Reit- und Wanderkarte - Jahresrückbli ck

hike39 ho...@hike.de wrote:

 Allerdings hat es mich etwas verwundert, dass dort dann ein
 Gesamtverzeichnis aller Wanderwege aufgebaut wird, auch wenn ich
 mich z.B.  nur für jene in Rheinland-Pfalz interessiere.

Das liegt vermutlich daran, dass Nop einfach alle Wanderwege die er
hat automatisch extrahiert und keine Ahnung hat wo genau die liegen.

@Nop: Das kann man ganz einfach ST_Intersects in der Postgis machen,
wenn man Ländergeometrien hat. Es gibt da diesen freien Datensatz,
der zwar nicht sonderlich genau ist aber für solche Zwecke wie den
geschilderten ist das ja kein Problem.

- http://www.naturalearthdata.com/

Gruss

Sven

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Re: [Talk-de] ?Reit- und Wanderkarte - Jahresrückbli ck

André Joost andre+jo...@nurfuerspam.de wrote:

 a) fehlendem Ortsbezug im Namen
 GR20 alleine wird nicht toleriert.

Aus dem GR ergibt sich implizit, dass der Weg in Frankreich oder
Spanien liegt. Explizit ergibt sich der Ortsbezug durch die Geometrie
selbst. Komische Regel, das.

Gruss

Sven

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Re: [Talk-de] ?Reit- und Wanderkarte - Jahresrückbli ck

Rainer Kluge rklug...@web.de wrote:

 Das bezieht sich natürlich nicht auf die Wege selbst, sondern auf die 
 Verwendung 
 der Bezeichnung GR xx und das Zusammenfassen von Wegen zu einer Relation. Die 
 Relation 101692 steht ganz eindeutig im Widerspruch zur Auffassung der FFRP.

Ich kann den Begriff geistiges Eigentum nicht leiden, der ist
tendenziös und schwammig und außerdem gibt es sowas nicht.  Was es
gibt sind Monopolrechte und eines davon (Copyright, Markenzeichen,
Patent,...  ) ist in der Regel gemeint.

Wenn es ein eingetragenes Markenzeichen für die Namen gibt dürfen wir
die Bezeichnung GR XX tatsächlich nicht verwenden aber eben nur dann. 
Alles andere ist legal weil die Wege ja eben nicht aus irgendeiner
Datenbank kopiert sondern erwandert wurden (Datenbankrecht). Es
gibt in der EU kein Monopolrecht auf Fakten.

Außerdem wäre nach dieser merkwürdigen Rechtsauffassung auch die
Wikipediaseite http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/GR20 illegal.

Gruss

Sven

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Re: [Talk-de] ?Reit- und Wanderkarte - Jahresrückbli ck

2011-01-05 Thread Rainer Kluge


Hallo Sven,
Am 05.01.2011 12:58, schrieb Sven Geggus:

Wenn es ein eingetragenes Markenzeichen für die Namen gibt dürfen wir
die Bezeichnung GR XX tatsächlich nicht verwenden aber eben nur dann.


Ich kein Jurist aber meine Französischkenntnisse reichen aus um das zu 
verstehen:

Topo-guide des sentiers de Grande randonnée, sentiers de Grande randonnée, GR®, 
GR Pays®, PR®, eco-veille®, Rando pour tous®, Rando Challenge®, ... à pied, les 
environs de ... à pied, Sentiers des patrimoines, sont des *marques déposées* 
ainsi que les marques de couleur blanc/rouge et jaune/rouge. Nul ne peut les 
utiliser sans autorisation de la FFRandonnée.


Quelle: http://www.ffrandonnee.fr/_67/mentions-legales.aspx

Demnach sind die Bezeichnungen für die diversen Wege, die zugehörigen 
Abkürzungen und die Farbcodes der Markierung eingetragene Markenzeichen.


Ich wollte nur darauf hinweisen. Ob einzelne Mapper oder Betreiber von 
Web-Seiten sich daran halten, ist deren Sache.


Gruß
Rainer


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Re: [Talk-de] ?Reit- und Wanderkarte - Jahresrückbli ck

2011-01-05 Thread André Joost


Am 05.01.11 12:49, schrieb Sven Geggus:

André Joostandre+jo...@nurfuerspam.de  wrote:


a) fehlendem Ortsbezug im Namen
GR20 alleine wird nicht toleriert.


Aus dem GR ergibt sich implizit, dass der Weg in Frankreich oder
Spanien liegt.


... oder Belgien.

Nop möchte aber für sein Wanderwegsverzeichnis explizit Anfangs/Endort 
haben, damit man die hunderttausende A1 bis A3 Wanderwege irgendwie dort 
unterscheiden kann, ohne alle durchklicken zu müssen.


Für mein Wanderwegsverzeichnis
http://bahnradwandern.bplaced.net/LokaleWanderwege.htm
bin ich einen anderen Weg gegangen:
alle Wege dort haben
network=lwn

das habe ich um
lwn=Name der Gemeinde
ergänzt. Funktioniert natürlich nur, wenn man grob ortskundig ist; 
deshalb mache ich das nur für NRW.


Im Wiki habe ich noch keinen passenden Platz zur Dokumentation gefunden. 
Gefällt mir jedenfalls besser, als das name-Tag vollzustopfen, oder 
is_in zu benutzen. Und für Sammelrelationen Wanderwege in xy erntet 
man doch nur Prügel...


Gruß,
André Joost



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Re: [Talk-de] JOSM und Luftbilder

2011-01-05 Thread Markus


Hallo Michael,


Die drei Plugins WMSPlugin, Imagery  RemoteControl sind nun direkt in
JOSM eingebaut, und müssen nicht mehr nachträglich nachinstalliert werden.


Ok - aber wo?


JOSM auf rev. 3772 aktualisiert.
danach war auch das WMS-Menü verschwunden
bei mir ist trotzdem das Imagery-Menü vorhanden.

Hast Du in den Einstellungen den Tab für Imagery (WMS / TMS)?


Leider nein.
Links werden die Icons von Imagery angezeigt, aber im Menü nicht.

Gruss, Markus

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Re: [Talk-de] ?Reit- und Wanderkarte - Jahresrückbli ck

2011-01-05 Thread NopMap

Sven Geggus wrote:

a) fehlendem Ortsbezug im Namen
GR20 alleine wird nicht toleriert.

Aus dem GR ergibt sich implizit, dass der Weg in Frankreich oder
Spanien liegt. Explizit ergibt sich der Ortsbezug durch die Geometrie
selbst. Komische Regel, das.

Der Name sollte für sich allein aussagefähig sein.

GR sagt ohne weitere Informationen exakt gar nichts. Das ist dem einen
oder anderen mit Ortskenntnissen bekannt, aber wie schon so schön
geschrieben wurde: Ein GR könnte genausogut in den Niederlanden, Italien
oder der Dresdner Heide sein, es könnte ein Nomenklaturbegriff, ein
Vereinsname oder die Abkürzung für Große Runde oder Gammelsdorfer Radweg
sein. Kommt alles vor. :-)

Außerdem gibt es das Grundprinzip, das bei Namen keine Abkürzungen verwendet
werden. GR ist nach meinem Verständnis eine Ref, aber kein Name.

Und mit beliebig viel Zusatzinfos und beliebig viel Aufwand kann man immer
noch mehr herausanalysieren. Und wie man sieht versuche ich sowas, aber es
ist aufwändig und funktioniert nicht zuverlässig.

Das tut aber nix dazu, daß der Name an und für sich nicht aussagekräftig
ist. Mein Benchmark ist wirklich so einfach: Wenn ich ohne Ortskenntnis und
Recherche kapiere, was gemeint ist, ist der Name aussagekräftig.

bye
Nop

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Re: [Talk-de] Reit- und Wanderkarte - Jahresrückblick

2011-01-05 Thread NopMap

Hallo!

hike39 wrote:

danke, bin nun anscheinend fündig geworden. Bin dabei über den
Menuepunkt Verzeichnisse - Wanderwege gegangen. Allerdings hat es mich
etwas verwundert, dass dort dann ein Gesamtverzeichnis aller Wanderwege
aufgebaut wird, auch wenn ich mich z.B. nur für jene in Rheinland-Pfalz
interessiere.

Ja, ich weiß, die Liste stammt noch aus einer Zeit als die Karte halb so
groß war und 10 mal weniger Wanderwege enthielt. Inzwischen sind das ja
schon über 100.000km geworden. Das gehört alles mal neu gemacht, hab nur
noch keine Idee wie man die Liste am besten aufbaut. Am liebsten würde ich
die Karte selbst mit Links versehen, so daß man die Wandersymbole direkt
anklicken kann und die Infos bekommt, ähnlich der OpenLinkMap, oder sie
vielleicht Highlighten kann. Habe aber leider keine Ahnung, wie das dort
funktioniert.

Für das was Du erreichen willst, ist es in dicht bewanderten Gebieten etwas
mühselig:
- Du kriegst im Verzeichnis auch das Icon zu sehen, mit dem der Weg in der
Karte markiert ist. Weiter reinzoomen Richtung Start oder Ziel und das Icon
suchen.
- Die heruntergeladene Relation mit irgendeinem Programm (z.B. Prune)
vereinfachen und dann in den Routeneditor laden. Hm, sowas direkt eingebaut
wäre glatt mal eine Idee für ein weiteres Feature... :-)

bye
Nop
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Re: [Talk-de] ?Reit- und Wanderkarte - Jahresrückbli ck

2011-01-05 Thread NopMap

Hi!

Sven Geggus wrote:

Das liegt vermutlich daran, dass Nop einfach alle Wanderwege die er
hat automatisch extrahiert und keine Ahnung hat wo genau die liegen.

Genau. :-)

Sven Geggus wrote:

@Nop: Das kann man ganz einfach ST_Intersects in der Postgis machen,
wenn man Ländergeometrien hat. Es gibt da diesen freien Datensatz,
der zwar nicht sonderlich genau ist aber für solche Zwecke wie den
geschilderten ist das ja kein Problem.

- http://www.naturalearthdata.com/

Danke für den Link, muß ich mir mal anschauen ob ich die Daten verwenden
kann. Sowas in der Art macht Map Composer ja schon, allerdings offline ohne
DB. Dafür brauche ich die Umrisse der Länder im Osmosis Polygonformat, die
habe ich mir damals von der Geofabrik geholt. Leider nur für die deutschen
Bundesländer flächendeckend verfügbar, sowas wie einen Korsika-Umriß gab's
nicht. Und ich hab's nach den letzten Kartenerweiterungen noch nicht
nachgezogen.

Die Geometrie ist aber auch nur ein grober Anhaltspunkt. In der Nähe von
Grenzen oder bei grenzüberschreitenden Wegen wird er schon mal leicht falsch
einsortiert.

Kennt jemand ein datenbankgestütztes Wegeverzeichnis bzw. etwas, das man als
Vorlage für ein solches verwenden könnte? Oder hat Lust mir ein bisserl was
über PostGIS beizubringen. :-)

bye
Nop

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Re: [Talk-de] ??Reit- und Wanderkarte - Jahresrück blick

Rainer Kluge rklug...@web.de wrote:

 Demnach sind die Bezeichnungen für die diversen Wege, die zugehörigen 
 Abkürzungen und die Farbcodes der Markierung eingetragene Markenzeichen.

Unglaublich!

Das schlimmste was passieren kann ist aber, dass wir die Wege
umbenennen müssen.

Gruss

Sven

-- 
C is quirky, flawed, and an enormous success
(Dennis M. Ritchie)

/me is gig...@ircnet, http://sven.gegg.us/ on the Web

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Re: [Talk-de] ??Reit- und Wanderkarte - Jahresrück blick

NopMap ekkeh...@gmx.de wrote:

 GR sagt ohne weitere Informationen exakt gar nichts.

GR ist ein Trademark wie ich gerade gelernt habe.

 Außerdem gibt es das Grundprinzip, das bei Namen keine Abkürzungen verwendet
 werden. GR ist nach meinem Verständnis eine Ref, aber kein Name.

Das kann man so sehen, aber dann haben viele GR Wege gar keinen Namen.

Anfangs und Endpunkte der GR Wege findet man hier:
http://www.gr-infos.com/gr-de.htm

Ist also nicht schwierig die nachzutragen.

Gruss

Sven

-- 
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 die anderen sind einfach von sich aus unlogisch.
  (Anselm Lingnau in de.comp.os.unix.discussion)
/me ist gig...@ircnet, http://sven.gegg.us/ im WWW

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Re: [Talk-de] denomination bei evangelischen Kirchen

Am 3. Januar 2011 12:22 schrieb Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org:
 Mein dringender Rat in dieser Sache waere, jegliches Tagging, das ueber
 place_of_worship=church, building=yes, name=xyz und
 religion=christian hinausgeht, der oertlichen Gemeinde zu
 ueberlassen...
 Ich kann niemandem was vorschreiben, aber ich persoenlich mache einen
 ganz grossen Bogen um irgendwelche Religionstags, wenn ich nicht gerade
 vor der Kirche stehe und das Schild abschreibe.


ja, raten ist bei diesem Thema sicher nicht angebracht. Lieber mal ne
Info weniger als eine falsche zuviel finde ich hier auch den richtigen
Ansatz, aber so kompliziert, dass es nur die Gemeindemitglieder selbst
hinbekommen ist es auch wieder nicht. Man findet an den Kirchen
praktisch immer die nötigen Informationen (meist ein Aushang am
Eingang, wo z.B. auch die service_times stehen), falls nicht, auch
die Kirchen sind im Internet.

Je nach Gegend gibt es die entsprechenden Defaults (hierzulande
catholic oder evangelisch, was ich bisher mit protestant getaggt
habe, evangelical ist es jedenfalls nicht).

Mir ist bewusst, dass das auch noch vereinfachend ist, genauer wäre
denomination=roman_catholic und denomination=greek_catholic bei den
Standard-Katholiken und lutheran für die Evangelisch-lutherische
Kirche.

Unierte und reformierte sind hingegen auch mir nicht klar, wie sie
getaggt werden sollten. Zu united steht im Wiki United Church of
Canada, was united_reformed bedeutet bleibt offen, und uniting
soll Uniting Church in Australia bedeuten. Vermutlich müsste da
jemand, der sich sehr gut auskennt, nochmal Klarheit schaffen und ggf.
den Australiern oder Canadiern oder beiden spezifischere Tags geben,
bei dutch_reformed ging das ja auch. (Ggf. auf tagging nachfragen).

Das Thema kommt nicht zum ersten Mal hoch, eine Klärung könnte man da
m.E. schonmal versuchen zu erzielen.

Gruß Martin


http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Denomination

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Re: [Talk-de] warum keine autobahn-nummer gerendert

Am 5. Januar 2011 08:48 schrieb Bernd Wurst be...@bwurst.org:
 highway=road kann jegliche Art von Weg oder Straße sein. Das sollte man aus
 gutem Grund nicht für's Routing benutzen.


nämlich? Es ist natürlich ein gewisses Risiko damit verbunden, wenn
man es optional einschaltet ist man sich dessen aber vermutlich
bewusster, als wenn die Dinger einfach so in der db liegen.


 Der Weg ist also aus Sicht der Anwendungen nicht erfasst.

mappen wir seit neuestem nur noch für Router? Im Editor springt Dich
ein road geradezu an, während eine Straße ohne Namen komplett
untergeht in der Standardansicht.


 Der erste Blick muss schon sehr flüchtig sein wenn du nicht merkst, dass die
 Straßen keinen Namen haben.


Ein FIXME würde ich mir ehrlich gesagt dann schon erhoffen, Straßen
ohne Namen gibt es viele, und Gründe, warum ein vorhandener Name nicht
gerendert wird, auch.

Gruß Martin

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Re: [Talk-de] JOSM und Luftbilder

2011-01-05 Thread Christian Knorr

Am Mittwoch 05 Januar 2011, um 03:06:47 schrieb Markus:
 Seit der Aktualisierung von JOSM-tested auf 3751
 ist das WMS-Plugin im Menü verschwunden (sei jetzt im Core?).
 
 Auch das imagery-Plugin ist weg, aber noch in der Plugin-Liste.
Worum geht's denn, was fehlt Dir?

MfG, Chris

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Re: [Talk-de] ?Reit- und Wanderkarte - Jahresrückbli ck

2011-01-05 Thread Bernd Wurst

Am Mittwoch 05 Januar 2011, 12:58:55 schrieb Sven Geggus:
 Wenn es ein eingetragenes Markenzeichen für die Namen gibt dürfen wir
 die Bezeichnung GR XX tatsächlich nicht verwenden aber eben nur dann. 

Meinem laienhaften Verständnis nach darf man für eine neutrale Kennzeichnung 
einer Marke auch das Markenzeichen verwenden. 

Wir bezeichnen einen Aldi ja auch als Aldi und bei den Fahrkartenautomaten der 
Bahn tragen wir Deutsche Bahn als operator ein. Das sind auch Marken.

Gruß, Bernd

-- 
Fachbegriffe der Informatik (#403): Strategische Entscheidung
   Wir haben zwar keine Ahnung, aber die Präsentationen sahen toll
   bunt aus, die Verkäufer haben uns zugelabert und trugen Schlips
   und Anzug. Lediglich das Geräusch, das entstand, als der anwesende
   Techniker (wer hat den eigentlich eingeladen, der trägt ja noch
   nichtmal Anzug) seinen Kopf mehrfach gegen die Tischplatte schlug,
   hat etwas gestört.
(Alexander Schreiber)


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Re: [Talk-de] JOSM und Luftbilder

2011-01-05 Thread Michael Bemmerl

Markus schrieb:
 Die drei Plugins WMSPlugin, Imagery  RemoteControl sind nun direkt in
 JOSM eingebaut, und müssen nicht mehr nachträglich nachinstalliert
 werden.
 
 Ok - aber wo?

Die Funktionen von WMSPlugin, Imagery  RemoteControl sind nun direkt in
der josm-tested.jar integriert. Deswegen ist ein Installieren der
Funktionen über Plugins *nicht* mehr nötig. D.h., wenn Du dir die
neueste josm-tested.jar oder josm-latest.jar herunterlädst, brauchst Du
für Bing  co. keine Plugins mehr.

 Hast Du in den Einstellungen den Tab für Imagery (WMS / TMS)?
 
 Leider nein.
 Links werden die Icons von Imagery angezeigt, aber im Menü nicht.

Also hast Du den Tab nun doch? Mach' doch mal ein Screenshot. Also bei
mir schaut JOSM so aus:
http://osm.michis-pla.net/temp/josm-3772.png
Oben in der Menüleiste das Menü mit den eingestellten Bildquellen, und
unter Einstellungen das Imagery-Tab mit den aktiven  verfügbaren
Bildquellen.

Grüße,
Michael




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Re: [Talk-de] JOSM und Luftbilder

2011-01-05 Thread Robert S.

On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 3:06 AM, Markus liste12a4...@gmx.de wrote:

 Seit der Aktualisierung von JOSM-tested auf 3751
 ist das WMS-Plugin im Menü verschwunden (sei jetzt im Core?).

 Auch das imagery-Plugin ist weg, aber noch in der Plugin-Liste.


Hast du zufällig jetzt einen Menüpunkt Hintergrund? Wenn ja, dann schau da
mal rein...
Warum man das übersetzen musste weiss ich auch nicht...
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Re: [Talk-de] JOSM und Luftbilder

2011-01-05 Thread Claudius


Am 05.01.2011 13:56, Markus:

Hallo Michael,


Die drei Plugins WMSPlugin, Imagery RemoteControl sind nun direkt in
JOSM eingebaut, und müssen nicht mehr nachträglich nachinstalliert
werden.


Ok - aber wo?


Einstellungen öffnen um dort RemoteControl-Einstellungen zu überprüfen
+ in der Menüleiste sollte der Eintrag Hintergrund-Zugriff auf die 
neuen Hintergrundbildebenen liefern.


Claudius

P.S.: Freue mich über Alternativen zur Übersetzung von imagery. 
Hintergrund fand ich aber gleichzeitig kurz und prägnant.



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Re: [Talk-de] ?Reit- und Wanderkarte - Jahresrückbli ck