Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap Future Look

[Jeff Meyer]

Frederik - thanks for the detailed reply. I fear that many of the
observations - as you note - can be arguments to the opposite of those
being made. Also, almost none of the observations are supported by data.
Can you provide any?

I also find that many of the arguments in your mail are contrary to the
Mission Statement of the Foundation (
http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Mission_Statement). As you are a member
of the OSMF Board of Directors, this is confusing to me.

Please see other notes below, but I'm not sure they add much to the
comments above.

- Jeff

On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 4:38 PM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:


> All this is not controlled by the OSMF and has largely happened without
> OSMF involvement.


Or in spite of, or because of, a lack of OSMF involvement.

This may have disadvantages - these people don't have to submit to any
> strategic planning by OSMF - but it also has the advantage that OSMF
> doesn't have to deal with fundraising and spending in the million dollar
> range, which would require a well-oiled and mature organisation to do
> properly.


Isn't one of the widest reaching and largest volunteer mapping forces in
the world worthy of a mature and well-oiled organization?


> Such an organisation would have to be built before one were to embark on
> any grand schemes.
>

No time to start like the present.


> The current situation demonstrates that even in the face of a small OSMF,
> the OSM ecosystem does evolve. It may not be steered and centrally planned
> but it isn't static either.
>

The questions are: how well has it evolved? Could it have evolved better?
We don't know. We only know how it has performed in the absence of a
stronger leadership presence and with minimal fundraising. We could
investigate the alternative and see how that goes.


> ... be "there". Before we embark on grand strategic planning, we must be
> able to answer questings like whom we want in the driver's seat at OSMF,
> what our core values are, and such. If you don't know at least roughly what
> you want, strategic planning doesn't help you.


Why not embark on less than grand planning? How about a simple plan? Take a
stab at some core values?


> Thing is, many of us know what they want individually, but we don't have
> good methods of finding the collective will from that.
>

What methods are considered good? Is voting a bad method of divining the
collective will?


> Someone mentioned that it would be great to have paid programmers on hand
> to make improvements to the web site and tools. But again, the question is
> who would task these programmers?



> There are lots of people who want something from OSM - routing on the
> start page, cool offline apps, a nice mapmaking toolkit for everyone to
> use, an different kind of editor, whatever. Bascially, any feature you see
> on any online map anywhere, someone will be there to tell us that OSM needs
> this feature "or else". I've even heard people argue that OSM should buy
> aerial imagery so openstreetmap.org can compete with Google maps.
>

Doesn't everybody want something from OSM? I do. You do. We all do. What's
wrong with that?

Again, why not do surveys or voting? These types of topics would seem to be
great discussions to have prior to SotM, so that we could report out on
progress in decision making.

And, just because people want something doesn't mean they think they'll get
it and that doesn't mean the community shouldn't listen.

Attracting people to openstreetmap.org is good but only if it leads to more
> contribution; getting "market share" is worth nothing if it doesn't also
> improve contribution. Net contribution, I should say, because more
> prominence will also attract more vandals whose work has to be repaired by
> others. So if we attract pepole to osm.org we should try to attract those
> who are likely to contribute. Someone who comes to us because we have the
> prettiest aerial imagery might not be our target group.
>

This is a circular argument.

As one of the OSMF's missions is to "grow the membership," why say, "if" we
attract more people?

For example, what are we doing to (a) attract those who are likely to
contribute, and (b) improve the user experience for those people who are
contributing, and possibly (c) expanding the methods of contribution. And,
how are we tracking our progress?

It seems that figuring out some core values and a plan would help answer
these questions.

Our current model requires that if you want something, you will either have
> to code it yourself or find someone who codes it for you (or pays for it).
> This creates a hurdle which I, personally, find very welcome; it makes sure
> that only those who persist, only those who are willing to spend serious
> effort, only those for whom it really matters, are heard and get their
> ideas implemented, while those who have just seen OSM for the first time
> and sign up to enlighten us with their wisdom and cool ideas, only to go
> away and enlighten someone else

Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap Future Look

[Clifford Snow]

On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 4:27 PM, Richard Weait  wrote:

> Nope.  It's just us.  All of us.  What do the Foundation (us) need to do
> to make you (us) feel like it is okay for you (us) to build this vision and
> act on it?  Join the OSMF.  Serve on a Working Group or two.  Lend the
> Foundation (us) more of your (us) energy and enthusiasm.
>
> The three great projects that you mentioned earlier, afaict, had no
> official participation from the Foundation.  Someone (us) or several
> someones (usses) just made them.
>

I am happy to work with and even join the OSMF. I even like the empowerment
that OSM gives to its contributors. But building a vision for an
organization with a million contributors and numerous stakeholders requires
a lot of thought and planning. Certainly more than we are ever going to
cover in these exchanges. It requires whoever takes on the task to get out
and meet with contributors and stakeholders to craft a vision.   Then to
make it a shared vision means communicating that vision with all of us.
 For an organization made up of volunteers a vision is not a slogan, it is
a view of what OSM will look like in the future.

-- 
Clifford

OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
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Re: [OSM-talk] Can Google use our data?

[Fredy Rivera]

On Sun, Jan 6, 2013 at 8:20 AM, Dave F.  wrote:

> It's clearly preposterous that both Jose & Fredy's think their edits have
> been copied to Google.
>
> @Fredy - Is there really a locality called Granates when there is an
> existing 'Granales' right next to it?

Not, "Granates" not is any locality, "Granates" is any farm. , I have also
others examples .

>
>
> Dave F.
>
>
> On 05/01/2013 16:34, Fredy Rivera wrote:
>
>> In Colombia abused google, copy your data and makes them small changes,
>> notice the "Camino viejo" I did it with my own GPS.
>> http://tools.geofabrik.de/mc/?**mt0=mapnik&mt1=googlemap&lon=-**
>> 75.18985&lat=4.82902&zoom=15
>>
>
>
>


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[OSM-talk] Fake city in google maps Colombia [semi-OT]

[Fredy Rivera]

Hello

I found that Google's mapmaker layer has a fictional city in Colombia where
it really is a desert area [0]
Leave a screenshot here [1] Google map has also incorporated some sites in
its official map.

[0]
http://tools.geofabrik.de/mc/?mt0=mapnik&mt1=googlemapmaker&lon=-75.13136&lat=3.44456&zoom=15
[1] https://www.dropbox.com/s/2t4vkyfow2vtyv7/ficticia.jpg

salu2
Humano
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Re: [OSM-talk] New History tab for openstreetmap.org (beta)

[Greg Troxel]

Paweł Paprota  writes:

> Hi Julien,
>
>>
>> Could it be possible to integrate the user classification visible
>> here ( http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/oooc) by example by adding the
>> same coloured man icon on the right of OSM User link. IMHO it could
>> be very usefull to know if an edit has been done by a new user of a
>> senior user
>
> That's an interesting feature. I'm not sure if it belongs in OWL - maybe
> it would make sense to implement that in the core website application so
> that this "seniority" information could be used in all places where user
> data is shown.

While I found it very useful to see the map of users coded by how active
they had been, I'm a bit concerned that such incentives will change
behavior in ways that are not necessarily useful.  I've heard stories of
programmers at one company writing very bloated code because they were
judged on number of lines of code produced.  While that sounds goofy,
getting a better color for lots of changesets is not so different.

Still, it's very useful to filter out the people with few edits and find
the people that are editing a lot, in terms of reaching out to locals
for meetups, etc.


pgpbzIp0hL7s7.pgp
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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap Future Look

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 07.01.2013 23:32, Johan C wrote:

In analogy, I would like to see the OSM Foundation to start such a
process with the OSM community and others outside the community. And
once there's a vision and a strategy for 2020, money might/will be
needed to carry out the strategy.


There's lots of things to be said about, and sometimes against, that and 
I'll probably go off on a number of tangents in this post.


It is quite possible that OSMF will eventually have paid staff but it is 
not necessary either. Take a look around - Mapnik has been mentioned, 
and the the main Mapnik development investment comes from two people 
(Dane and Artem) who are both now paid for their work (just not by OSMF 
but by Mapbox). Mapbox have also acquired some funding from the Knight 
Foundation that might give us a Javascript editor, iD. Other valuable 
contributions to OSM came, and continue to come, from people getting 
their money from MapQuest (notably Nomiatim development by Brian and an 
alternative rendering stack done by Matt, as well as contributions to 
the Potlatch editor by Andy), or from Cloudmade (even though their 
interest in OSM has ebbed now), or Geofabrik (that's me). There's also 
nonprofits like HOT or CycleStreets who often fund some work related to 
OSM which benefits the project in one way or another, and OSMF (proto-) 
local chapters starting to acquire funds of their own and do stuff with it.


All this is not controlled by the OSMF and has largely happened without 
OSMF involvement. This may have disadvantages - these people don't have 
to submit to any strategic planning by OSMF - but it also has the 
advantage that OSMF doesn't have to deal with fundraising and spending 
in the million dollar range, which would require a well-oiled and mature 
organisation to do properly. Such an organisation would have to be built 
before one were to embark on any grand schemes.


The current situation demonstrates that even in the face of a small 
OSMF, the OSM ecosystem does evolve. It may not be steered and centrally 
planned but it isn't static either.


The Wikimedia strategic planning process has been mentioned. Wikimedia 
spent an awful lot of money on professional consultants to help build 
the strategy, and indeed Mikel (member of the OSMF board until September 
2012) had made initial contact with a few consultancies who work with 
nonprofits, with a view to finding out whether they could help OSMF with 
their strategic planning. The results were inconclusive; compared to 
Wikimedia when they started their strategic planning, OSMF is still very 
young, much less mature, and has much less cash, and many of those Mikel 
talked to correctly said that we might not yet be "there". Before we 
embark on grand strategic planning, we must be able to answer questings 
like whom we want in the driver's seat at OSMF, what our core values 
are, and such. If you don't know at least roughly what you want, 
strategic planning doesn't help you. Thing is, many of us know what they 
want individually, but we don't have good methods of finding the 
collective will from that.


Someone mentioned that it would be great to have paid programmers on 
hand to make improvements to the web site and tools. But again, the 
question is who would task these programmers? There are lots of people 
who want something from OSM - routing on the start page, cool offline 
apps, a nice mapmaking toolkit for everyone to use, an different kind of 
editor, whatever. Bascially, any feature you see on any online map 
anywhere, someone will be there to tell us that OSM needs this feature 
"or else". I've even heard people argue that OSM should buy aerial 
imagery so openstreetmap.org can compete with Google maps.


Attracting people to openstreetmap.org is good but only if it leads to 
more contribution; getting "market share" is worth nothing if it doesn't 
also improve contribution. Net contribution, I should say, because more 
prominence will also attract more vandals whose work has to be repaired 
by others. So if we attract pepole to osm.org we should try to attract 
those who are likely to contribute. Someone who comes to us because we 
have the prettiest aerial imagery might not be our target group.


Our current model requires that if you want something, you will either 
have to code it yourself or find someone who codes it for you (or pays 
for it). This creates a hurdle which I, personally, find very welcome; 
it makes sure that only those who persist, only those who are willing to 
spend serious effort, only those for whom it really matters, are heard 
and get their ideas implemented, while those who have just seen OSM for 
the first time and sign up to enlighten us with their wisdom and cool 
ideas, only to go away and enlighten someone else next week, are ignored.


This means that our whole project is very firmly rooted in the 
community; most things we do are by and for the community.


If we had a lot of money and paid staff, It is

Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap Future Look

[Richard Weait]

On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 6:04 PM, Clifford Snow wrote:

> I fully concur that OSM Foundation needs to start a vision and strategy
> for the future. How do we get their attention? In this instance I don't
> believe we should lead from the rear. We need the leadership that the
> Foundation can provide.
>

"Their attention"  Them.  Us and Them.

Nope.  It's just us.  All of us.  What do the Foundation (us) need to do to
make you (us) feel like it is okay for you (us) to build this vision and
act on it?  Join the OSMF.  Serve on a Working Group or two.  Lend the
Foundation (us) more of your (us) energy and enthusiasm.

The three great projects that you mentioned earlier, afaict, had no
official participation from the Foundation.  Someone (us) or several
someones (usses) just made them.

Best regards,
Richard
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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap Future Look

[Clifford Snow]

On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 2:32 PM, Johan C  wrote:

> OSM has two choices: make a strategic plan, or maintaining an organic grow
> path. I love the way OSM developed so far, delivering great products such
> as Mapnik, JOSM and mkgmap, having sysadmins doing a great job in keeping
> the database available etcetera. It's also great to see that OSM now has
> more than 1 million registered users. However, the number of users editing
> ( http://osmstats.altogetherlost.com/index.php?item=countries ) is not
> increasing in the same manner. Being involved for over three years now in
> the project, I have the assumption that the actual use of OSM in apps or
> PND's is not rising very quickly, probably also caused by competition by
> better products such as Google maps (yes, I know that OSM is a database and
> not an app). And I noticed that trying to get advanced features in OSM,
> like lane assist, is really troublesome, So, my question is: how do we want
> Openstreetmap to evolve in the next years. The Wikimedia Foundation
> launched a strategic planning process in 2009:
> http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page which, in 2010, resulted in
> a collaborative vision for the movement till 2015.
>
> We have various consumers of our maps. The 1 million registered OSM users,
commercial users like Foursquare, government agencies like TriMet in
Portland and the people that use our maps for everyday use.  Our measures
of success shouldn't just include how many registered users, but also the
consumers of our data. How many non registered users use our web site, how
many return? These are important metrics. I'm not even sure if we have
them. Hopefully someone with more knowledge than me can make sure we
publish the metrics.

I'm glad you brought up Wikimedia. According to their annual report, they
sent over $11 Million (US) dollars on salaries. We are probably more like
Wikimedia when you consider the importance of user contributions. The
Redhat model I originally referenced is more Community Support model for a
Open Source company.


> In analogy, I would like to see the OSM Foundation to start such a process
> with the OSM community and others outside the community. And once there's a
> vision and a strategy for 2020, money might/will be needed to carry out the
> strategy.
>


I fully concur that OSM Foundation needs to start a vision and strategy for
the future. How do we get their attention? In this instance I don't believe
we should lead from the rear. We need the leadership that the Foundation
can provide.


-- 
Clifford

OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap Future Look

[Johan C]

OSM has two choices: make a strategic plan, or maintaining an organic grow
path. I love the way OSM developed so far, delivering great products such
as Mapnik, JOSM and mkgmap, having sysadmins doing a great job in keeping
the database available etcetera. It's also great to see that OSM now has
more than 1 million registered users. However, the number of users editing
( http://osmstats.altogetherlost.com/index.php?item=countries ) is not
increasing in the same manner. Being involved for over three years now in
the project, I have the assumption that the actual use of OSM in apps or
PND's is not rising very quickly, probably also caused by competition by
better products such as Google maps (yes, I know that OSM is a database and
not an app). And I noticed that trying to get advanced features in OSM,
like lane assist, is really troublesome, So, my question is: how do we want
Openstreetmap to evolve in the next years. The Wikimedia Foundation
launched a strategic planning process in 2009:
http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page which, in 2010, resulted in a
collaborative vision for the movement till 2015.

In analogy, I would like to see the OSM Foundation to start such a process
with the OSM community and others outside the community. And once there's a
vision and a strategy for 2020, money might/will be needed to carry out the
strategy.

Cheers, Johan

2013/1/7 Pierre Béland 

> I agree that we should have tools to facilitate adding or updating POI's,
> including with a smartphone.
>
> But we should not forget that OSM is more then a commercial map. This is a
> community map and we have to show the various activities our contributors
> are engaged in.
>
> I would also like to easily find a doctor, a community center, etc. And it
> should be easy to select from a list without the complexity of OSM tags.
>
> It would also be interesting to have POI layers grouped  by various
> sectors like restaurants, hosting, stores, medical services, public
> services, attractions, etc.
>
> Pierre
>
>   --
> *De :* Clifford Snow 
> *À :*
> *Cc :* Talk Openstreetmap 
> *Envoyé le :* Lundi 7 janvier 2013 12h20
> *Objet :* Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap Future Look
>
> I agree. We have so much good data, we just need to improve the map
> interface so more people come to OSM first.
>
> My friend Jeff Meyer just commented the other day that he wondered why we
> don't have an easy way for businesses to add their establishments to OSM. I
> know that Yahoo and Bing have it.  Last year I helped my local gym out.
> They moved two blocks. Of course, OSM was fix on the day of the move. Bing
> and Yahoo had an easy web page to enter the new information. But if he had
> to go through the process of making the change in OSM it would have never
> happened. We can and shouldn't expect everyone to have the same interest in
> learn how to map. But we should make it easy to add and update data for
> businesses.
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 3:04 AM, Paweł Paprota  wrote:
>
> Hello Clifford,
>
> Very interesting e-mail. It seems that as the project grows, there is
> more and more people feeling like there should be some kind of "next
> level" that OSM as a project and community should reach. I agree with that.
>
>
>  It seems to me that OSM needs a full time staff that can work with
> the community to build OSM for the future. I would think that at the
> rate we are growing, we need to be planning for a much bigger
> future.
>
>
> Just a few days ago I replied to a mailing list thread about OSM's
> "market share" with my thoughts on precisely this topic you mention in
> the quote above:
>
> http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/pipermail/talk/2013-**January/06.html
>
> I am a developer so my area of interest is technical but I am sure that
> in other areas like working with the community, communication and
> "advertising", data (handling vandalisms, imports) there is a similar
> need for more involvement.
>
> Sure it would be great to have the project run on volunteers - money
> (some people being paid) thrown in the mix always causes problems at
> some point - but I think it's becoming clear that OSM cannot reach that
> next level without some sort of push... After all, it's normal in other
> large projects/organizations that some people are working full time on
> it. Perhaps OSM needs to evolve a little bit more to embrace such model?
>
> The other problem is much simpler - where do you get the money from? I
> thought about OSM Foundation getting involved and trying to get some
> funding for the project. Not sure how that would work legally but at
> this point there has to be a way to get money for development - it's
> clear that many stakeholders and users of OSM want to see the project
> moving forward and I'm sure some of them are willing to donate money.
>
> Paweł
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Rendering of Farmland not 'Light' enough?

[Aun Yngve Johnsen]

Aun Johnsen

On 7. jan. 2013, at 15:48, talk-requ...@openstreetmap.org wrote:

> . Most areas that are currently default background are in reality farmland.
> 
> Phil (trigpoint)
Not true, most untagged areas are either some form of wilderness, farmlands, or 
on some rare occurances tagged with non-rendered tags. There are still areas of 
the world where most industries, residential areas and other still are largely 
untagged.

Now, having the map taking crop and produce tags into consideration would be 
great, but that is maybe for a specialist map?
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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap Future Look

[Pierre Béland]

I agree that we should have tools to facilitate adding or updating POI's, 
including with a smartphone.

But we should not forget that OSM is more then a commercial map. This is a 
community map and we have to show the various activities our contributors are 
engaged in. 

I would also like to easily find a doctor, a community center, etc. And it 
should be easy to select from a list without the complexity of OSM tags.


It would also be interesting to have POI layers grouped  by various sectors 
like restaurants, hosting, stores, medical services, public services, 
attractions, etc.
 

Pierre 



>
> De : Clifford Snow 
>À : 
>Cc : Talk Openstreetmap  
>Envoyé le : Lundi 7 janvier 2013 12h20
>Objet : Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap Future Look
> 
>
>I agree. We have so much good data, we just need to improve the map interface 
>so more people come to OSM first. 
>
>My friend Jeff Meyer just commented the other day that he wondered why we 
>don't have an easy way for businesses to add their establishments to OSM. I 
>know that Yahoo and Bing have it.  Last year I helped my local gym out. They 
>moved two blocks. Of course, OSM was fix on the day of the move. Bing and 
>Yahoo had an easy web page to enter the new information. But if he had to go 
>through the process of making the change in OSM it would have never happened. 
>We can and shouldn't expect everyone to have the same interest in learn how to 
>map. But we should make it easy to add and update data for businesses. 
>
>
>
>
>On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 3:04 AM, Paweł Paprota  wrote:
>
>Hello Clifford,
>>
>>Very interesting e-mail. It seems that as the project grows, there is
>>more and more people feeling like there should be some kind of "next
>>level" that OSM as a project and community should reach. I agree with that.
>>
>>
>>
>>It seems to me that OSM needs a full time staff that can work with
>>>the community to build OSM for the future. I would think that at the
>>>rate we are growing, we need to be planning for a much bigger
>>>future.
>>>
>>
Just a few days ago I replied to a mailing list thread about OSM's
>>"market share" with my thoughts on precisely this topic you mention in
>>the quote above:
>>
>>http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2013-January/06.html
>>
>>I am a developer so my area of interest is technical but I am sure that
>>in other areas like working with the community, communication and
>>"advertising", data (handling vandalisms, imports) there is a similar
>>need for more involvement.
>>
>>Sure it would be great to have the project run on volunteers - money
>>(some people being paid) thrown in the mix always causes problems at
>>some point - but I think it's becoming clear that OSM cannot reach that
>>next level without some sort of push... After all, it's normal in other
>>large projects/organizations that some people are working full time on
>>it. Perhaps OSM needs to evolve a little bit more to embrace such model?
>>
>>The other problem is much simpler - where do you get the money from? I
>>thought about OSM Foundation getting involved and trying to get some
>>funding for the project. Not sure how that would work legally but at
>>this point there has to be a way to get money for development - it's
>>clear that many stakeholders and users of OSM want to see the project
>>moving forward and I'm sure some of them are willing to donate money.
>>
>>Paweł
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>
>
>
>-- 
>
>Clifford
>
>
>OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap Future Look

[Jeff Meyer]

Oh, sure... drag me into the fray.

In general, I agree with Paweł, Hans, and Cliff - there are a variety of
services we could offer on the front page of openstreetmap.org that would
make visiting it a much more rich experience and more inviting to newer
users.

For example, I'd like to use OSM for my routing, but I'm not sure why I
have to go anywhere other than osm.org to do that.

Another example: there's nothing that says simply, "You can map your local
area - learn how!" or "Add your business to this map," or "Start mapping."

Perhaps the real question we should ask is, "Why should the casual visitor,
who looks at our current home page after knowing about Google Maps, Bing
Maps, Yahoo Maps, etc. ever come back to osm?" Do we care? I think many of
us have plenty of good reasons, none of which are obvious from the home
page content.

- Jeff


On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 9:20 AM, Clifford Snow wrote:

> I agree. We have so much good data, we just need to improve the map
> interface so more people come to OSM first.
>
> My friend Jeff Meyer just commented the other day that he wondered why we
> don't have an easy way for businesses to add their establishments to OSM. I
> know that Yahoo and Bing have it.  Last year I helped my local gym out.
> They moved two blocks. Of course, OSM was fix on the day of the move. Bing
> and Yahoo had an easy web page to enter the new information. But if he had
> to go through the process of making the change in OSM it would have never
> happened. We can and shouldn't expect everyone to have the same interest in
> learn how to map. But we should make it easy to add and update data for
> businesses.
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 3:04 AM, Paweł Paprota  wrote:
>
>> Hello Clifford,
>>
>> Very interesting e-mail. It seems that as the project grows, there is
>> more and more people feeling like there should be some kind of "next
>> level" that OSM as a project and community should reach. I agree with
>> that.
>>
>>
>>  It seems to me that OSM needs a full time staff that can work with
>>> the community to build OSM for the future. I would think that at the
>>> rate we are growing, we need to be planning for a much bigger
>>> future.
>>>
>>
>> Just a few days ago I replied to a mailing list thread about OSM's
>> "market share" with my thoughts on precisely this topic you mention in
>> the quote above:
>>
>> http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/pipermail/talk/2013-**
>> January/06.html
>>
>> I am a developer so my area of interest is technical but I am sure that
>> in other areas like working with the community, communication and
>> "advertising", data (handling vandalisms, imports) there is a similar
>> need for more involvement.
>>
>> Sure it would be great to have the project run on volunteers - money
>> (some people being paid) thrown in the mix always causes problems at
>> some point - but I think it's becoming clear that OSM cannot reach that
>> next level without some sort of push... After all, it's normal in other
>> large projects/organizations that some people are working full time on
>> it. Perhaps OSM needs to evolve a little bit more to embrace such model?
>>
>> The other problem is much simpler - where do you get the money from? I
>> thought about OSM Foundation getting involved and trying to get some
>> funding for the project. Not sure how that would work legally but at
>> this point there has to be a way to get money for development - it's
>> clear that many stakeholders and users of OSM want to see the project
>> moving forward and I'm sure some of them are willing to donate money.
>>
>> Paweł
>>
>>
>>
>> __**_
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>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/talk
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Clifford
>
> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
>
> ___
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>
>


-- 
Jeff Meyer
Global World History Atlas
www.gwhat.org
j...@gwhat.org
206-676-2347
www.openstreetmap.org/user/jeffmeyer
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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap Future Look

[Clifford Snow]

I agree. We have so much good data, we just need to improve the map
interface so more people come to OSM first.

My friend Jeff Meyer just commented the other day that he wondered why we
don't have an easy way for businesses to add their establishments to OSM. I
know that Yahoo and Bing have it.  Last year I helped my local gym out.
They moved two blocks. Of course, OSM was fix on the day of the move. Bing
and Yahoo had an easy web page to enter the new information. But if he had
to go through the process of making the change in OSM it would have never
happened. We can and shouldn't expect everyone to have the same interest in
learn how to map. But we should make it easy to add and update data for
businesses.


On Mon, Jan 7, 2013 at 3:04 AM, Paweł Paprota  wrote:

> Hello Clifford,
>
> Very interesting e-mail. It seems that as the project grows, there is
> more and more people feeling like there should be some kind of "next
> level" that OSM as a project and community should reach. I agree with that.
>
>
>  It seems to me that OSM needs a full time staff that can work with
>> the community to build OSM for the future. I would think that at the
>> rate we are growing, we need to be planning for a much bigger
>> future.
>>
>
> Just a few days ago I replied to a mailing list thread about OSM's
> "market share" with my thoughts on precisely this topic you mention in
> the quote above:
>
> http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/pipermail/talk/2013-**January/06.html
>
> I am a developer so my area of interest is technical but I am sure that
> in other areas like working with the community, communication and
> "advertising", data (handling vandalisms, imports) there is a similar
> need for more involvement.
>
> Sure it would be great to have the project run on volunteers - money
> (some people being paid) thrown in the mix always causes problems at
> some point - but I think it's becoming clear that OSM cannot reach that
> next level without some sort of push... After all, it's normal in other
> large projects/organizations that some people are working full time on
> it. Perhaps OSM needs to evolve a little bit more to embrace such model?
>
> The other problem is much simpler - where do you get the money from? I
> thought about OSM Foundation getting involved and trying to get some
> funding for the project. Not sure how that would work legally but at
> this point there has to be a way to get money for development - it's
> clear that many stakeholders and users of OSM want to see the project
> moving forward and I'm sure some of them are willing to donate money.
>
> Paweł
>
>
>
> __**_
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/talk
>



-- 
Clifford

OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
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Re: [OSM-talk] Rendering of Farmland not 'Light' enough?

[Philip Barnes]

Green grass would be useful to differentiate between pasture and use a lighter 
brown for arable fields.

Not much farmland is tagged at present, but I it was envisage the map becoming 
largely brown which will not be attractive. Most areas that are currently 
default background are in reality farmland.

 Phil (trigpoint)
--

Sent from my Nokia N9



On 07/01/2013 16:24 nicholas ingalls wrote:

I second that it should stay brown! There are way to many green objects and we 
don't want it confused with the grass tag. My vote would be to play around with 
the brown color. I certainly agree that it currently isn't the best.


Cheers,
ingalls



On Sun, Jan 6, 2013 at 11:01 AM, Lennard  wrote:

On 6-1-2013 15:51, Dave F. wrote:


On a related topic; if a field has a barrier tag it changes colour
rendering at zoom 16:



That's because having a landuse on it as well pushes it into the polygon table. 
It's subsequently rendered as a barrier area, ie. with the barrier=hedge fill.


--
Lennard



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Re: [OSM-talk] Rendering of Farmland not 'Light' enough?

[nicholas ingalls]

I second that it should stay brown! There are way to many green objects and
we don't want it confused with the grass tag. My vote would be to play
around with the brown color. I certainly agree that it currently isn't the
best.

Cheers,
ingalls


On Sun, Jan 6, 2013 at 11:01 AM, Lennard  wrote:

> On 6-1-2013 15:51, Dave F. wrote:
>
>  On a related topic; if a field has a barrier tag it changes colour
>> rendering at zoom 16:
>>
>
> That's because having a landuse on it as well pushes it into the polygon
> table. It's subsequently rendered as a barrier area, ie. with the
> barrier=hedge fill.
>
>
> --
> Lennard
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] New History tab for openstreetmap.org (beta)

[Paweł Paprota]

Hi Julien,



Could it be possible to integrate the user classification visible
here ( http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/oooc) by example by adding the
same coloured man icon on the right of OSM User link. IMHO it could
be very usefull to know if an edit has been done by a new user of a
senior user



That's an interesting feature. I'm not sure if it belongs in OWL - maybe
it would make sense to implement that in the core website application so
that this "seniority" information could be used in all places where user
data is shown.

But that's more of a technical problem - the feature itself is a good
idea, I will make a note of it, thanks.

In general I would like to add some "social" feel to the new history tab
like displaying user avatar (I hit a technical problem with that for 
now) to make it more engaging than just a dump of changeset metadata.


Paweł


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Re: [OSM-talk] House Numbers

[John F. Eldredge]

"Janko Mihelić"  wrote:

> What about addr:interpolation? Do you count all the housenumbers in
> between, or only the ones on the ends? I think all should be counted.
> And
> not because I use those a lot :)
> 
> Janko (1373) Mihelić
> 
> 
> 
> 
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In some cases, address interpolation may produce addresses that don't exist on 
the ground.  My parents lived for years on a street that has several sharp 
turns.  In order to keep the addresses more-or-less in sync between the two 
sides of the street, a number of potential house numbers were skipped at the 
inside of the sharp turns.

-- 
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to 
think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria
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Re: [OSM-talk] New History tab for openstreetmap.org (beta)

[THEVENON Julien]

Hi Pawel,

Could it be possible to integrate the user classification visible here ( 
http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/oooc) by example by adding the same coloured man 
icon on the right of OSM User link.
IMHO it could be very usefull to know if an edit has been done by a new user of 
a senior user

my 2 cents
Julien



>
> De : Paweł Paprota 
>À : talk@openstreetmap.org 
>Envoyé le : Vendredi 4 janvier 2013 0h01
>Objet : [OSM-talk] New History tab for openstreetmap.org (beta)
> 
>Hi all,
>
>For some time now I've been working on the OpenStreetMap Watch List project[1] 
>and on integrating OWL into the main OSM website.
>
>At this point I've got something slowly approaching beta status and I would 
>appreciate early feedback from the community.
>
>You can see it in action here:
>
>http://owl.apis.dev.openstreetmap.org/
>
>Couple of things:
>
>* Zoom levels >= 14 should be usable. On lower zoom levels it sometimes takes 
>a lot of time to show history. Also I don't have clear idea yet what to really 
>show on the lower zoom levels - what would be useful - so suggestions are 
>welcome.
>
>* I'm actively working on this instance so don't be surprised when something 
>breaks or there is no data at all etc. - it's a beta version :-)
>
>* You can click on nodes/ways in the map to get more details about changes :-)
>
>Any comments are welcome.
>
>[1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OWL_(OpenStreetMap_Watch_List)
>
>Paweł
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap Future Look

[Hans Schmidt]

Am 07.01.2013 08:22, schrieb Jo:
Maybe the home page should not have a map on it (it's only a sample of 
what is in the database anyway, which will always be lacking some 
feature). Instead it could have links to openlinkmap.org 
 (which is what you seem to want), 
hikebikemap.de , 
http://demo.3liz.com/osmtransport/ and many more fine examples of 
other ways to represent the available data.


The problem is, that the ordinary user is confused with that. He/she 
does not know what to choose, meaning he will leave right away and go 
for Google or Bing Maps. Of course, it is possible to make OSM purely 
for OSM mappers and more tech affectionate people, but I wonder if this 
is the right attitude. Just because someone is not that interested into 
something like that, he still wants to be able to use the map. If you 
think of it, everybody has some weak points in his knowledge: food, 
clothing, technology, languages; and for everything, there are services 
to make it easy for someone.
Therefore, in my opinion, it is necessary to develop the main OSM map: 
This is where the people look, and not somewhere else. If they have too 
much choice, they will not use it at all.
Of course, there can and should be other projects. But I think the main 
OSM map should be developed and incorporate much more features, 
especially being more interactive: Being able to click on items (e.g. 
click on a shop, and its further details with name, telephone number 
etc. will pop up), selecting bus lanes which will then be highlighted on 
the map, looking for all supermarkets in a city etc. The features which 
most of the users want should be there; only more specialized stuff 
needs an own map.


Wikipedia has become so widely used because it is extremely simple: just 
go on wikipedia.org, enter your search term and done. This is also 
necessary for OSM, I think: If you only heard the name openstreetmap, 
you look for openstreetmap in google, and then you want all the 
information on one page.


Of course, this may need full-time development, but I think many people 
would be willing to donate money for that purpose. I certainly would.
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Re: [OSM-talk] House Numbers

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 01/07/2013 02:48 PM, Christian Quest wrote:

Regarding housenumbers, I'm trying to render them with only the ones
around street corners at some zoom level.


You could try to make a layer that returns the house number plus the 
count of highway=residential ways within n metres of the house number 
(e.g. count(*) from planet_osm_line other where 
st_dwithin(this.way,that.way,n)).


That would of course not be perfect...

I'd also be interested in trying to align house numbers to the matching 
street so that they have an equal distance and the same angle as the 
street. Also a difficult problem.


Bye
Frederik

--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [OSM-talk] House Numbers

[Christian Quest]

Regarding housenumbers, I'm trying to render them with only the ones
around street corners at some zoom level.

It is not obvious and almost impossible with a standard osm2pgsql
schema. It looks like some db/osmosis schema is necessary for such
complex postgis queries.

Anyone tried something in that area ?

-- 
Christian Quest - OpenStreetMap France - http://openstreetmap.fr/u/cquest

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Re: [OSM-talk] House Numbers

[Peter Wendorff]

Am 06.01.2013 16:11, schrieb Janko Mihelić:
What about addr:interpolation? Do you count all the housenumbers in 
between, or only the ones on the ends? I think all should be counted. 
And not because I use those a lot :)

-1
address interpolations are exactly that: interpolations.
Often you find missing ones (like 5a 5b in the odd 1-11 interpolation), 
that could not be counted, or the other way around there are houses 
missing which is not stated in the interpolation (interpolating even 
2-222, but the house with number 100 does not (yet) exist).


Additionally the position of individual housenumbers often can only be 
roughly estimated by the interpolation. That's better than nothing, and 
for sure better than only two housenumbers without the interpolation 
information in between, but individual numbers would be much better usually.


Counting that equally I think would benefit lazy mappers (no offense, 
address interpolations are often a great intermediate mapping result).


regards
Peter

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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap Future Look

[Christian Quest]

2013/1/7 Paweł Paprota :
> Hello Clifford,
>
> Very interesting e-mail. It seems that as the project grows, there is
> more and more people feeling like there should be some kind of "next
> level" that OSM as a project and community should reach. I agree with that.
>

OSM growth is there: +80% accounts in one year (we had half a million
back in Nov. 2011, and reached the million this week-end).

I've gathered a few statistics for France for 2012... and the growth
of data is also high, around +34% more highways of all kinds with a
rate of more than 1000km added daily.

Hardware needs to follow the growth of data and use of data (tiles) as
well as human resources too...

The failure of a couple of servers this week-end also showed that we
currently have too many single point of failure in our architecture
(one is too many).

Yes funding is an important question. Asking for donation for some
hardware from time to time will not allow to do much.

-- 
Christian Quest - OpenStreetMap France - http://openstreetmap.fr/u/cquest

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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap Future Look

[Paweł Paprota]

Hello Clifford,

Very interesting e-mail. It seems that as the project grows, there is
more and more people feeling like there should be some kind of "next
level" that OSM as a project and community should reach. I agree with that.


It seems to me that OSM needs a full time staff that can work with
the community to build OSM for the future. I would think that at the
rate we are growing, we need to be planning for a much bigger
future.


Just a few days ago I replied to a mailing list thread about OSM's
"market share" with my thoughts on precisely this topic you mention in
the quote above:

http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2013-January/06.html

I am a developer so my area of interest is technical but I am sure that
in other areas like working with the community, communication and
"advertising", data (handling vandalisms, imports) there is a similar
need for more involvement.

Sure it would be great to have the project run on volunteers - money
(some people being paid) thrown in the mix always causes problems at
some point - but I think it's becoming clear that OSM cannot reach that
next level without some sort of push... After all, it's normal in other
large projects/organizations that some people are working full time on
it. Perhaps OSM needs to evolve a little bit more to embrace such model?

The other problem is much simpler - where do you get the money from? I
thought about OSM Foundation getting involved and trying to get some
funding for the project. Not sure how that would work legally but at
this point there has to be a way to get money for development - it's
clear that many stakeholders and users of OSM want to see the project
moving forward and I'm sure some of them are willing to donate money.

Paweł


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Re: [OSM-talk] ¿Qué usas para editar en OSM?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2013/1/7 Jaime Crespo :
> Siguiendo el hilo sobre editores, y aunque sé que existen estadísticas. ahí
> va una encuesta rápida para ver qué editor es más popular en la comunidad
> hispana:


you can see the statistics for a single user with
how-did-you-contribute (at the bottom)

http://hdyc.neis-one.org/?Richard
http://hdyc.neis-one.org/?stoecker
etc.

there is also a page in the wiki that gives overall statistics:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Editor_usage_stats

cheers,
Martin

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[OSM-talk] ¿Qué usas para editar en OSM?

[Jaime Crespo]

Siguiendo el hilo sobre editores, y aunque sé que existen estadísticas. ahí
va una encuesta rápida para ver qué editor es más popular en la comunidad
hispana:

<
https://docs.google.com/a/jynus.com/spreadsheet/viewform?formkey=dGcwZ2M1aERwTGhhZkZfU3QxUHh4YVE6MQ
>

-- 
Jaime Crespo
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Re: [OSM-talk] House Numbers

[Janko Mihelić]

2013/1/7 Jo 

>
> But how do you propose to count those? There might be numbers missing in
> the sequence or there might be 4A, 4B, 4C, etc in between. 2 and 6. At
> least such discrepancies are possible in Belgium.
>

I try to remove those discrepancies as much as possible, but I can't say
they don't exist. It's your service, you make the rules.

I think we need more services like this, and then mappers get achievements
like "Lord of housenumbers", "Master of powerlines", "Governor of
buildings" when they come in the top 3%. That's quite a motivator.

Janko
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