Re: [OSM-talk] stop deleting abandoned railroads

[mick]

On Sun, 23 Aug 2015 00:09:43 +0100
moltonel 3x Combo  wrote:

> On 22/08/2015, John Eldredge  wrote:
> > So, if you are looking for a route without steep grades, a former
> > railway is a natural choice.
> 
> Do people actually do this ? It sounds like a strawman argument to me.
> I do a fair bit of walking and cycling, and when planing a trip I look
> at the global topographic data but it never occured to me to look for
> railroads. Why use the local railroad hint when you've got the global
> DEM data ?

How fine is the granularity of the DEM data?

The DEM data I've found is about 5km.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Abandoned Rails

[Balaco Baco]

> > What we need is a
> > database that already has all the data and simply identify when some
> > small elements of it cease to be current.
> 
> In OSM we do that by deleting the small elements ;)

I'm sorry. But this is just a stupid thing to do. To have no data and to
have the most recently obtained data are two very different things.

With the first one you just end with something that isn't worth to ever
try consulting because it may not have what you're looking for, so
better not expend time with it.

With the later one, you can be satisfied many times, and if it's not the
current real situation, it should be close enough - or you can even
contribute to correct or improve it, which should be much easier to do
than making it all from the start, from nothing.

-- 
  Balaco



On Sat, Aug 22, 2015, at 18:16, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On 08/22/2015 11:07 PM, Lester Caine wrote:
> > What we need is a
> > database that already has all the data and simply identify when some
> > small elements of it cease to be current.
> 
> In OSM we do that by deleting the small elements ;)
> 
> Bye
> Frederik
> 
> -- 
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
> 
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[OSM-talk] New styles for OSM.org [was: Re: The Proposed Great Colour Shift]

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 23.08.2015 0:51, Paul Norman napisał(a):

On 8/22/2015 4:20 AM, Daniel Koć wrote:
Could anybody with technical background in the inner OSM workings tell 
us what is holding us back with introducing new styles (be it raster 
styles, additional/interactive layers or even vector tiles)?


Only a lack of people willing to do the work.


I would like to know more specific - is there a place I could get more 
information on the styles we already show? Like where are they hosted 
(by whom), is there a way to get involved and the things like that. Most 
of this can be found here:


http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Featured_tiles

but not whether the servers are internal or external and I don't know if 
these informations are current.


I believe default osm-carto is hosted on OSM servers?

For me it's important for OSM community to have control over the style, 
so just adding some nice tiles from the "outer space" will not resolve 
our problems.


That's why I've asked about possible lack of technical resources - if we 
have enough horsepower on our servers to run the whole second style it 
would be great, but I guess you meant just plugging external tiles, 
which could be nice, but only to some extent. Am I right?



For new layers which are overlays or in-client vector tile rendered,
there would also probably be a pull request needed to add the
necessary code.


cquest (of French style) just let me know that he is experimenting with 
vector tiles:


https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/1402#issuecomment-132209396

So another layman question arises: given that he (or anybody else for 
that matter!) succeed with serving such tiles AND is willing to fulfill 
our criteria - would it mean just some code is needed and we have the 
way to handle (practically) unlimited styles, or it is not that easy as 
I wish? =}


--
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down" [A. Cohen]


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Re: [OSM-talk] The Proposed Great Colour Shift

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 08/23/2015 12:51 AM, Paul Norman wrote:
>> Could anybody with technical background in the inner OSM workings tell
>> us what is holding us back with introducing new styles (be it raster
>> styles, additional/interactive layers or even vector tiles)?
> 
> Only a lack of people willing to do the work.

A lack of people willing to do the work *and* host the style. We'll
happily include them if they meet the criteria you mention, but we're
not currently set up to serve multiple styles ourselves.

We might be able to switch to vector tiles somewhere down the line,
allowing us to serve more styles easily, but that requires a lot of
people willing to do a lot of work ;)

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] stop deleting abandoned railroads

[moltonel 3x Combo]

On 22/08/2015, John Eldredge  wrote:
> So, if you are looking for a route without steep grades, a former
> railway is a natural choice.

Do people actually do this ? It sounds like a strawman argument to me.
I do a fair bit of walking and cycling, and when planing a trip I look
at the global topographic data but it never occured to me to look for
railroads. Why use the local railroad hint when you've got the global
DEM data ?

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Re: [OSM-talk] The Proposed Great Colour Shift

[Paul Norman]

On 8/22/2015 4:20 AM, Daniel Koć wrote:
Could anybody with technical background in the inner OSM workings tell 
us what is holding us back with introducing new styles (be it raster 
styles, additional/interactive layers or even vector tiles)?


Only a lack of people willing to do the work.

Multiple people have started their own styles based on OpenStreetMap 
Carto. Both the French style and the new German style started this way. 
I believe both the cycle map and transport map on osm.org are using 
vector tile infrastructure now. OpenSeaMap provides a rendered overlay.


If you're asking about on osm.org, I believe there's just been a lack of 
interest. To be added a layer would need to support the criteria on 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Strategic_working_group/New_Tile_Layer_Guidelines. 
I believe the last request was the HOT layer, which got added.


If another tile host wanted to write a proposal to add their tiles, I'd 
be willing to talk to them about helping. I still have all the HOT 
stuff, so wouldn't need to redo that.


For new layers which are overlays or in-client vector tile rendered, 
there would also probably be a pull request needed to add the necessary 
code.


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Re: [OSM-talk] stop deleting abandoned railroads

[John Eldredge]

Not precisely flat, but with very shallow grades, by definition. Regular 
railroad engines (as opposed to cog railway engines) can't climb steep 
slopes. So, if you are looking for a route without steep grades, a former 
railway is a natural choice.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On August 18, 2015 8:28:47 AM Frederik Ramm  wrote:


Hi,

On 08/18/2015 03:21 PM, Richard wrote:

Especially as many railways come with more or less dense key:ele tagging
they are much more reliable to derive height profile information than any
other data we have.


Do I understand you correctly: We should map abandoned railways because
we lack a good source of elevation data?

That sounds like a very strange proposal to me. Perhaps the wiki
documenting the "abandoned" value should be amended by "not to be used
for abandoned mountain railways, because cycle routers will prefer
routing along abandoned railway lines under the assumption that they
must be flat"?

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] Abandoned Rails

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 08/22/2015 11:07 PM, Lester Caine wrote:
> What we need is a
> database that already has all the data and simply identify when some
> small elements of it cease to be current.

In OSM we do that by deleting the small elements ;)

Bye
Frederik

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Abandoned Rails

[Lester Caine]

On 22/08/15 21:32, Tim Waters wrote:
> I'd like to recommend OpenHistoricalMap.org (OHM) which will welcome
> all types of historical, disused and abandoned features. Please, go
> add every abandoned railway to OHM, and then together we can
> eventually get an accurate map of 1880s railway network compared to a
> 1940's, compared to yesterdays world!

BUT OHM has avoided importing all of the existing material. Manually
adding all that again is a pointless exercise. What we need is a
database that already has all the data and simply identify when some
small elements of it cease to be current.

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Re: [OSM-talk] The Proposed Great Colour Shift

[Lester Caine]

On 22/08/15 19:24, Eugene Alvin Villar wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 22, 2015 at 6:23 PM, Lester Caine  > wrote:
> 
> The main problem here is that OSM is used by a large part of the UK web
> services [...]
> 
> I agree that this is a problem. But not for the reasons you may think.
> The OSM default tileset is *not* meant to be used as a general-purpose
> tileset by third parties. There are no service-level guarantees and
> styles may change without notice to them. There is *absoutely* no
> obligation on the OSM community to notify third party users of our
> tilesets of any changes.
> 
> In fact, third parties who consume too much tile bandwidth are
> encouraged to source tiles from other services like MapQuest or Mapbox,
> or roll out their own tile service.
> 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tile_usage_policy

We have had this discussion before ... If the share link is not intended
to provide links for embedded maps and include a link back to the main
map then it should be removed? This is intended as advertising and using
it as an alternative to google SHOULD be encouraged. But if promoting
OSM is against the rules then so be it ... but advertising some other
commercial service is equally wrong.

As for simply dumping a complete rework of the style without any warning
... that is perhaps why I am looking to retain the current style via my
own service. At least a few 'dictatorships' are learning that one needs
to ease existing users from one style of working to another and allow
the user the choice. In a few places I still get hassled to use 'the new
interface', but there is nothing wrong with the old one and it works for
me. AT least when the front page style changed there was an alternative,
and I think that is how any major change should be handled. If it falls
flat on it's face one can at least roll back rather than having no such
security.

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
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Re: [OSM-talk] Abandoned Rails

[Tim Waters]

I'd like to recommend OpenHistoricalMap.org (OHM) which will welcome
all types of historical, disused and abandoned features. Please, go
add every abandoned railway to OHM, and then together we can
eventually get an accurate map of 1880s railway network compared to a
1940's, compared to yesterdays world!

Tim



On 22/08/2015, Jason Remillard  wrote:
> Hi
>
>> I'd therefor like to propose that abandoned railways be treated like
>> borders.  Even if you can't see it along a given stretch there are people
>> who can and they have put a huge amount of effort into that work.  Lets
>> respect that and strengthen the community rather than deleting it and
>> doing
>> the opposite.
>
> I 100% agree. The amount of data required to map abandoned railroads
> is tiny. An occasional way through a new development is not going to
> hurt anybody or impair normal mapping activity.
>
> Apparently, the people that like to map railroads think OSM is the
> best place to do this. We are not in any position to be chasing them
> off. OSM has a long, long way to go still. Above all else, it needs to
> more active mappers if we are serious about being the best map for the
> entire world. Also, It seems likely they are also mapping non
> controversial things like roads while working on the railroads.
>
> Dave F, OSM is doing just fine. It is full of contradictions,
> redundancies, disagreements, and broken rules (see the tagging list).
> It is not some kind of business database that requires normalization,
> strict schema definitions, and vigilant protection. It can't have any
> once sentence rules defining its boundaries. It is a great big blank
> sheet of paper, relax and let the railroad people draw on it a bit.
> Nobody is going to get hurt.
>
> Jason
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] The Proposed Great Colour Shift

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 08/22/2015 02:12 PM, Tobias Knerr wrote:
> But more importantly, it discounts all those voices who favour the
> status quo. Personally, I think that the problems with the current style
> are relatively minor, and don't automatically justify a drastic change.

But then again, the problems with the new style are also relatively
minor, and don't automatically justify derailing the process ;)

Bye
Frederik

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] The Proposed Great Colour Shift

[Eugene Alvin Villar]

On Sat, Aug 22, 2015 at 6:23 PM, Lester Caine  wrote:

> The main problem here is that OSM is used by a large part of the UK web
> services [...]
>

I agree that this is a problem. But not for the reasons you may think. The
OSM default tileset is *not* meant to be used as a general-purpose tileset
by third parties. There are no service-level guarantees and styles may
change without notice to them. There is *absoutely* no obligation on the
OSM community to notify third party users of our tilesets of any changes.

In fact, third parties who consume too much tile bandwidth are encouraged
to source tiles from other services like MapQuest or Mapbox, or roll out
their own tile service.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tile_usage_policy
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Re: [OSM-talk] The Proposed Great Colour Shift

[Lester Caine]

On 22/08/15 15:08, Philip Barnes wrote:
>> Why not keeping the UK style under openstreetmap.co.uk just like you
>> > will find the german style under openstreetmap.de ?
> It should be openstreetmap.org.uk.
> 
> We are not a commercial organisation.

.co.uk is registered, so the .uk one can be used going forward

But this is possibly not the best way of making a scale able system. It
would be better to have a single main domain which then forwards to an
appropriate service?

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] The Proposed Great Colour Shift

[Philip Barnes]

On Sat, 2015-08-22 at 21:39 +0900, Max wrote:
> On 2015년 08월 22일 19:23, Lester Caine wrote:
> > The main problem here is that OSM is used by a large part of the UK
> > web
> > services, and any change needs to be managed in such a manor that
> > those
> > services are not too badly affected. We do not have a list of every
> > site
> > actually using OSM over google, and the vast majority of users will
> > not
> > be following this list, so some other notification process needs
> > adopting ... and an alternative source needs to be in place for
> > those
> > users ...
> 
> Why not keeping the UK style under openstreetmap.co.uk just like you
> will find the german style under openstreetmap.de ?

It should be openstreetmap.org.uk.

We are not a commercial organisation.

Phil (trigpoint)

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Re: [OSM-talk] The Proposed Great Colour Shift

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 22.08.2015 14:21, Tom MacWright napisał(a):

On the topic of whether we can or should notify everyone who may
potentially be affected by this change so their opinions can be
registered, you may enjoy this read:


http://www.ftrain.com/wwic.html [2]


Awesome! It's just about what I would like to say (without using 
"customer" metaphor however =} but with "communication" idea instead):


"Create a service experience around what you publish and sell. Whatever 
“customer service” means when it comes to books and authors, figure it 
out and do it. Do it in partnership with your readers. Turn your readers 
into members. Not visitors, not subscribers; you want members. And then 
don't just consult them, but give them tools to consult amongst 
themselves."


We need communications channels for individuals/institutions/services 
using OSM data or other services (especially maps) - and also inside the 
project, because we are so distributed, that for example even Wiki is 
rather a service for rendering team than a common working space, because 
rendering does not try to change it, but rather consumes the definitions 
for its own purposes.


--
"The train is always on time / The trick is to be ready to put your bags 
down" [A. Cohen]


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Re: [OSM-talk] The Proposed Great Colour Shift

[Max]

On 2015년 08월 22일 19:23, Lester Caine wrote:
> The main problem here is that OSM is used by a large part of the UK web
> services, and any change needs to be managed in such a manor that those
> services are not too badly affected. We do not have a list of every site
> actually using OSM over google, and the vast majority of users will not
> be following this list, so some other notification process needs
> adopting ... and an alternative source needs to be in place for those
> users ...

Why not keeping the UK style under openstreetmap.co.uk just like you
will find the german style under openstreetmap.de ?


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Re: [OSM-talk] The Proposed Great Colour Shift

[Tom MacWright]

On the topic of whether we can or should notify everyone who may
potentially be affected by this change so their opinions can be registered,
you may enjoy this read:

> http://www.ftrain.com/wwic.html

On Sat, Aug 22, 2015 at 8:12 AM, Tobias Knerr  wrote:

> On 20.08.2015 10:09, Christoph Hormann wrote
> > If you think a different styling than what is currently proposed would
> > be better it would be best to show it.
>
> It's hardly fair to expect critics of the suggested new style to easily
> come up with alternatives. For one, the effort in question was enabled
> by sponsorship by Google, and took place over several months. This is
> not easily duplicated by those favouring other ideas.
>
> But more importantly, it discounts all those voices who favour the
> status quo. Personally, I think that the problems with the current style
> are relatively minor, and don't automatically justify a drastic change.
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] The Proposed Great Colour Shift

[Tobias Knerr]

On 20.08.2015 10:09, Christoph Hormann wrote
> If you think a different styling than what is currently proposed would 
> be better it would be best to show it.

It's hardly fair to expect critics of the suggested new style to easily
come up with alternatives. For one, the effort in question was enabled
by sponsorship by Google, and took place over several months. This is
not easily duplicated by those favouring other ideas.

But more importantly, it discounts all those voices who favour the
status quo. Personally, I think that the problems with the current style
are relatively minor, and don't automatically justify a drastic change.

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Re: [OSM-talk] The Proposed Great Colour Shift

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 22.08.2015 12:34, Lester Caine napisał(a):


the motorway still stands out clearly against the water courses. The


So we just disagree here: for me it's just barely "spottable", which is 
far from clear difference, as you see it.



That more styles are required is a simple fact. The problem is allowing
access to an appropriate style rather than the current single option
provided by the main page. We need to be able to select style AND
language defaults in much the same way that projects like php provide
multiple mirrors with local translations and information.


I guess this might be primary a problem of limited resources.

Could anybody with technical background in the inner OSM workings tell 
us what is holding us back with introducing new styles (be it raster 
styles, additional/interactive layers or even vector tiles)?


--
"The train is always on time / The trick is to be ready to put your bags 
down" [A. Cohen]


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Re: [OSM-talk] The Proposed Great Colour Shift

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 22.08.2015 12:23, Lester Caine napisał(a):


The main problem here is that OSM is used by a large part of the UK web
services, and any change needs to be managed in such a manor that those
services are not too badly affected. We do not have a list of every 
site

actually using OSM over google, and the vast majority of users will not
be following this list, so some other notification process needs
adopting ... and an alternative source needs to be in place for those
users ...


If we take a look from 10,000 feet, this is just a specific 
manifestation of a more general problem: up to this moment OSM is 
developing mostly by adding elements (more users, more data, more tags, 
more visual features, wider ecosystem etc.) and has no procedures for 
dealing with more systematic changes.


It's the same when debating any tagging shift or introducing new tagging 
scheme - there are no established channels of communication with the 
whole ecosystem, nor even inside the project!


In my opinion this lack of tools for managing any bigger changes (which 
in turn might be also lack of leadership, I guess) is the main factor 
behind the project being so constricted: it travels very fast, but only 
in one direction, because any try of steering shows so many hidden 
strings attached, that it causes a lot of friction and looks like 
mission impossible.


--
"The train is always on time / The trick is to be ready to put your bags 
down" [A. Cohen]


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Re: [OSM-talk] The Proposed Great Colour Shift

[Lester Caine]

On 22/08/15 11:10, Daniel Koć wrote:
>> I'd be tempted to leave motorways as blue - it's not such a critical
>> problem as the invisible green trunk roads. Adding one
> 
> For me the problem is the same - blue looks like a river and I don't
> know why at least some of UK-ers likes to see the London area roads like
> this (I mean: having to spot two most important road types!):
> 
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=9/51.3289/-0.0673
> 
> Its not that "UK style" doesn't work for the rest of the world, it also
> doesn't work for UK on OSM, because we have much more data visible than
> other maps.

The switch to more pastel colours WAS the problem here, but the blue of
the motorway still stands out clearly against the water courses. The
only current problem is actually the B roads being lost against the
'farmland' but that is simple to fix - just switch off 'farmland' since
the vast majority of areas not identified are farmland anyway. The loss
of visibility of these in preference to the miss coloured yellow
unclassified roads is the current problem on UK views.

> That's not against this or any other local styling - I never
> underestimate the power of old habits and I'd like the people to have
> what they want on the output, no matter why they want it, but it's just
> not going to happen as long as default style has a mission to be universal.

That more styles are required is a simple fact. The problem is allowing
access to an appropriate style rather than the current single option
provided by the main page. We need to be able to select style AND
language defaults in much the same way that projects like php provide
multiple mirrors with local translations and information.

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
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Re: [OSM-talk] The Proposed Great Colour Shift

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 22.08.2015 12:14, Richard Mann napisał(a):

Purple motorways would be a problem in the Severn Estuary:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=11/51.5850/-2.6402 [3]


Sure, but we have more space for changing the boundaries - for example 
use more dashed lines or make them thinner on lower zoom levels. Here 
you can see the same place with a border styling which would be 
different enough:


http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/51.5964/-2.6682

--
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down" [A. Cohen]


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Re: [OSM-talk] The Proposed Great Colour Shift

[Lester Caine]

On 20/08/15 02:16, Jóhannes Birgir Jensson wrote:
> The design goal seems straight forward, to discontinue green and blue
> for roads and move to red and reddish. For this to happen the decision
> was made to shift current primary, secondary and tertiary colours
> "upwards" so primary is now the colour of secondary and secondary the
> colour of tertiary. Leaving tertiary white.

Just thought I'd highlight the sort of WTF problems that will need to be
addressed if the main style sheet does change ...

http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/index.php?title=Pease_Pottage_Interchange
YES the green on the map is a problem, ...it should be the same colour
as on the left then it will stand out, and the blue and red should also
be darker which I'm currently tinkering with on my own server.

The main problem here is that OSM is used by a large part of the UK web
services, and any change needs to be managed in such a manor that those
services are not too badly affected. We do not have a list of every site
actually using OSM over google, and the vast majority of users will not
be following this list, so some other notification process needs
adopting ... and an alternative source needs to be in place for those
users ...

I've finally got a caching setup working, but it's still not ideal. I'm
still missing something on getting a clean rendering stack that can also
allow additional rendering options to be developed.

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

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Re: [OSM-talk] The Proposed Great Colour Shift

[Richard Mann]

Purple motorways would be a problem in the Severn Estuary:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=11/51.5850/-2.6402

On Sat, Aug 22, 2015 at 11:10 AM, Daniel Koć  wrote:

> W dniu 22.08.2015 1:47, Richard Mann napisał(a):
>
>> I'd be tempted to leave motorways as blue - it's not such a critical
>> problem as the invisible green trunk roads. Adding one
>>
>
> For me the problem is the same - blue looks like a river and I don't know
> why at least some of UK-ers likes to see the London area roads like this (I
> mean: having to spot two most important road types!):
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=9/51.3289/-0.0673
>
> Its not that "UK style" doesn't work for the rest of the world, it also
> doesn't work for UK on OSM, because we have much more data visible than
> other maps.
>
> That's not against this or any other local styling - I never underestimate
> the power of old habits and I'd like the people to have what they want on
> the output, no matter why they want it, but it's just not going to happen
> as long as default style has a mission to be universal.
>
>
> --
> "The train is always on time / The trick is to be ready to put your bags
> down" [A. Cohen]
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] The Proposed Great Colour Shift

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 22.08.2015 1:47, Richard Mann napisał(a):

I'd be tempted to leave motorways as blue - it's not such a critical
problem as the invisible green trunk roads. Adding one


For me the problem is the same - blue looks like a river and I don't 
know why at least some of UK-ers likes to see the London area roads like 
this (I mean: having to spot two most important road types!):


http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=9/51.3289/-0.0673

Its not that "UK style" doesn't work for the rest of the world, it also 
doesn't work for UK on OSM, because we have much more data visible than 
other maps.


That's not against this or any other local styling - I never 
underestimate the power of old habits and I'd like the people to have 
what they want on the output, no matter why they want it, but it's just 
not going to happen as long as default style has a mission to be 
universal.


--
"The train is always on time / The trick is to be ready to put your bags 
down" [A. Cohen]


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Re: [OSM-talk] The Proposed Great Colour Shift

[Minh Nguyen]

On 2015-08-21 03:13, Colin Smale wrote:

While we are at it, what about specific symbols for train/metro stations
per operator? That is also a great "landmark" for map users.


I'd love to see that in the Transportation map. The difference with 
highway shields is that the Standard style is already badging highways, 
but in a format that seems foreign to people in the U.S.


--
m...@nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us


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