Re: [OSM-talk] Cease use of OpenStreetMap/Antifa logo
Hello fellow OSMers! 🙂 So this is from me. Last year I made some mashups of the OSM logo. There is often a lot of big business presence at tech/FLOSS conferences now, so I thought “What would be the opposite of that?” I am pretty lefty, and I do like OSM's anarchistic/do-ocracy/flat/non-hierarchical tradition anyway. So I ordered these stickers for a laugh, and they (& the LGBTQ designs) were quite popular. I don't believe it breeches the OSMF Trademark policy. §3.5 allows remixed logos for user group logos. §3.2 & §3.4 allow the use of stickers. (There is plenty of other examples of OSM trademark use BTW 😉) I thought it was clear that it didn't reflect OSMF policy, but I'm sure I can communicate that better, to avoid all doubt. Mea Culpa. §2.2 of the Trademark policy does require a more explicit notice, which I've now added to the wiki page. §2.3 says I shouldn't suggest OSMF endorsement, and I don't want to suggest, or imply, OSMF affiliation or endorsement! 🙂 I've added a message the wiki page for that image. Do you think that suffices? Yes, by definition all democratic societies are "anti-fascist", but even I know the logo is more than just "anti-fascist", and... controversial. 🙃 _However_ I need to think on this. We have a lot of work to do. We have a whole world to map. I don't want everyone to fight, or external people to get mistaken ideas about OSM. 😞 Someone might have a false idea of one thing, and (falsely) think all of OSM is like that. That can go both ways: Right wing, bigoted, politicians sometimes claim "antifa are violent terrorists" (cf. Trump after the Charlottesville rally). “OSM doesn't have a Code of Conduct, and they just banned the antifa logo saying it's a horrible violent organization!” could make some marginalized groups (falsely) think OSM is full of a certain type of hostile person! As well as OSM being inherently political, "No politics" can (in practice) translate to "Don't act gay, and people are allowed be homophobic to you and you can't complain" (etc). If you think it's OK for people to act gay/etc in an OSM event, then a "no politics" rule communicates quite the opposite (alas). IMO you should rephrase. Yes, the OSM community/OSMF should think about what kinds of (political) issues we should (& shouldn't) get involved with, and what should be in our spaces. (hey... maybe there should be some sort of code of how you can conduct yourself in OSM spaces 🤔😉😆) So I need to think. My email inbox is open if anyone wants to give suggestions/(confidential?) advice/tell me to knock it off/tell me to keep going. Just cause something is legal, or within the trademark policy, doesn't mean it's always a good idea. 🙂 Yours, in mapping, Rory P.S.: For the avoidance of doubt: I paid for all these myself. This email (& the logo) represent my personal opinions, not those of the OSMF board, the OSMF, the OSM project, etc. I paid for these myself. These stickers are not part of the newly founded CWG's promotional material programme. I designed & got them well before I thought about running for the board. On 10.02.20 16:57, Midgard wrote: Hi, Someone created a mashup[1] between the logos of OpenStreetMap and Antifa, a collective of militant groups which are known to use violence. This graphic is distributed on stickers.[2] I'm asking to cease use of this logo. I think it's a bad idea to create material that associates OpenStreetMap with political groups. I suspect there are also trademark issues with the mashup. [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:2019_OSM_Anarchist_Antifa_logo.svg [2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Promotional_Material_Programme#Swag_from_Individual_OSMers Kind regards, Midgard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Cease use of OpenStreetMap/Antifa logo
Quoting Christoph Hormann (2020-02-13 15:06:21) > On Monday 10 February 2020, Midgard wrote: > > > > I think it's a bad idea to create material that associates > > OpenStreetMap with political groups. I suspect there are also > > trademark issues with the mashup. > > No, the trademark policy is pretty clear on that: > > https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Trademark_Policy > > in section 3.5. There's also section 2.1 that forbids using a mark that "confuses users by suggesting endorsement by, or affiliation with, the OSMF". I think that is violated here. Kind regards, Midgard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Cease use of OpenStreetMap/Antifa logo
On Monday 10 February 2020, Midgard wrote: > > I think it's a bad idea to create material that associates > OpenStreetMap with political groups. I suspect there are also > trademark issues with the mashup. No, the trademark policy is pretty clear on that: https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Trademark_Policy in section 3.5. If the Mafia (in Germany a criminal organization under §129 StGB - something the Antifa does not qualify as) would create a remix of the OSM logo with their logo (if they had one) to promote the use of OSM in organized crime or promote the contribution of their members to OSM that would be perfectly fine as far as the OSMF trademark policy is concerned. One possible constraint for having a logo on the OSM wiki or having stickers with a certain logo handed out at SotM would be if that logo contains symbols that are forbidden under British law or under the local jurisdiction at the conference. I don't think this applies here regarding British law or any local law at any place where SotM has taken place in the past. For last year's SotM in Heidelberg that would for example have been cases under §86 StGB: https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stgb/__86.html which does not apply to the logo in question. -- Christoph Hormann http://www.imagico.de/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Is OSM Anti-Fascist? (was: Cease use of OpenStreetMap/Antifa logo)
Hi, I agree that OSM should remain un-political where possible, just so that political squabbles do not interfere with mapping. At one "Local Chapters Congress" at one of the recent SotM conferences, I remember someone from an African country saying that they already faced difficulties setting up an OSM organisation in that country because other people believed OSM was something subversive that would threaten established powers and values. And what we do is of course subversive when viewed from an authoritarian perspective (what, everyone to make their own maps that are not government-sanctioned, how dare you). I agree with Florian that OSM is deeply anti-Fascist in what it does, but that is as far as it goes: The things we do go against authoritarianism, against Fascism - we as a group or we as and organisation do not, and we do not endorse political organisations, be they pro or anti Fascist. Our official position should be that we are apolitical, even if our activities might not be! On the other hand, where governments propose or make laws that would make it harder for us to map, I think we should oppose that in a structured way, as an organisation - provided we have the time and energy for that. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Cease use of OpenStreetMap/Antifa logo
Hi, Quoting Florian Lohoff (2020-02-13 12:59:23) > Just nitpicking but "militant groups" is a little far fetched. Antifa is > the abbreviation for "Anti fascist" and by no means has anything to do > with militant activities. > > Putting the Antifa into the militant left wing edge is polemic of a lot > of right wing, facist or nationalist partys in the rise in a lot of > European countries. I have contacted the creator of the logo via PM with the same request, they did not react to my description of antifa as violent, instead asking me to make a comparison to militaries. The different language editions of Wikipedia use varying terminology to describe Antifa. The English one describes it as militant anti-fascist groups that engage in property damage, physical violence, and harassment.[1] The German one says that the violent antifa movements self-describe as "militant antifascists". It does acknowledge that antifa is left to far-left.[2] I conclude that it's possible to have differing impressions of antifa. (Think of the blind men and the elephant.[3]) My impression is that there are violent antifa groups. Your antifa groups may be more peaceful, but the logo is the same, and the overall impression will be "endorses violent groups" for people who have that impression of antifa. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(United_States) and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_(Germany) [2] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant > I agree that OSM should not by itself get into the trouble of > sympathising with any political views. OTOH the idea of Anti Facism should > be within OSMs interest as we want to be a welcoming, divers and > globally collaborating group of individuals. > > Facism OTOH is the exact opposite of what the OSM Community wants to be > so i sympathise with the idea of parts or the whole of the community > opposing facism. > > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Community_Code_of_Conduct_(Draft) I'm definitely not fascist either. But in my experience, antifa stands for more than just being opposed to fascism. It also includes hints of anarchy and use of violence. > As already the URLs mention this is not an official OSM position but > individuals making mashups. These stickers were handed out at SotM 2019. If you see a sticker, you don't see that it's not official. > From my POV the mashup is to far from > the original to be a serious and clear trademark issue. But - IANAL. It is an adaptation from https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Logo_simple.svg IANAL either, but in my interpretation of the trademark policy it's a violation of section 2.3 (Use of remixed logos) https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Trademark_Policy#2.3._No_confusion.2C_endorsement.2C_or_affiliation and section 3.5 (Use of remixed logos) https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Trademark_Policy#3.5._Use_of_remixed_logos Kind regards, Midgard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Cease use of OpenStreetMap/Antifa logo
On 13.02.20 13:38, Maarten Deen wrote: > With the risk of starting a political discussion, but you are grossly > understating the actions of the various antifa groups. > They are generally seen as militant left wing groups. I know of at least three groups having "Antifa" in ther name in my town here in Germany, only on of them has been known to be on the militant side every once in a while, and even then that mostly meant "try to prevent right wing demonstration marches from succeeding, even when they are protected by the police". So while not strictly legal, most of their actions can still be put into "civil inobedience" category, and not really the "extremist action" one IMHO There is no formal "THE Antifa" in Germany. There's for sure the "Autonome Antifa" and the so called "black block", that would qualify as unacceptable militant / extremist IMHO, but as far as I can tell they are actually a very vocal, but nonetheless rather small fraction of all the different groups collecting themselves under the "Antifa" label. -- hartmut ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Cease use of OpenStreetMap/Antifa logo
On 2020-02-13 12:59, Florian Lohoff wrote: On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 04:57:40PM +0100, Midgard wrote: Hi, Someone created a mashup[1] between the logos of OpenStreetMap and Antifa, a collective of militant groups which are known to use violence. This graphic is distributed on stickers.[2] Just nitpicking but "militant groups" is a little far fetched. Antifa is the abbreviation for "Anti fascist" and by no means has anything to do with militant activities. Putting the Antifa into the militant left wing edge is polemic of a lot of right wing, facist or nationalist partys in the rise in a lot of European countries. With the risk of starting a political discussion, but you are grossly understating the actions of the various antifa groups. They are generally seen as militant left wing groups. From wikipedia (if that is an authority) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa_%28Germany%29#Government_and_police_monitoring_of_Antifa The Federal Agency for Civic Education notes that Antifa groups sometimes call for violence not only against police or skinheads but also against bishops and judges. There are slogans like "antifascism means attack", not only against the far right but also against the political system of the Federal Republic of Germany Especially the last portion makes me shun away from antifa as much as I do from fascism. Regards, Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Cease use of OpenStreetMap/Antifa logo
Hi, On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 04:57:40PM +0100, Midgard wrote: > Hi, > > Someone created a mashup[1] between the logos of OpenStreetMap and Antifa, a > collective of militant > groups which are known to use violence. This graphic is distributed on > stickers.[2] Just nitpicking but "militant groups" is a little far fetched. Antifa is the abbreviation for "Anti fascist" and by no means has anything to do with militant activities. Putting the Antifa into the militant left wing edge is polemic of a lot of right wing, facist or nationalist partys in the rise in a lot of European countries. > I'm asking to cease use of this logo. > > I think it's a bad idea to create material that associates OpenStreetMap with > political groups. > I suspect there are also trademark issues with the mashup. I agree that OSM should not by itself get into the trouble of sympathising with any political views. OTOH the idea of Anti Facism should be within OSMs interest as we want to be a welcoming, divers and globally collaborating group of individuals. Facism OTOH is the exact opposite of what the OSM Community wants to be so i sympathise with the idea of parts or the whole of the community opposing facism. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Community_Code_of_Conduct_(Draft) > [1] > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:2019_OSM_Anarchist_Antifa_logo.svg > [2] > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Promotional_Material_Programme#Swag_from_Individual_OSMers As already the URLs mention this is not an official OSM position but individuals making mashups. From my POV the mashup is to far from the original to be a serious and clear trademark issue. But - IANAL. Flo -- Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de UTF-8 Test: The 🐈 ran after a 🐁, but the 🐁 ran away signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OTG rule, borders & mountains existing | Re: Crimea situation - on the ground
On 13.02.20 08:41, Colin Smale wrote:
>>> Locations are stored in OSM as pairs of {lat,lon} and I assume these
>>> are both 64-bit floats in the database.
>>
>> AFAIK they are stored as integers (shifting the decimals)
>>
> If so then then my comments about preserving precision still apply to
> all "client" software and I bet the majority uses float. Then an
> innocent update to a tag on a node can end up unintentionally moving the
> location slightly, losing precision.
Floats are not necessarily more precise than fixed comma "integers",
as you don't need to waste bits on the exponent when you know it
is constant.
But even when taking a 32 bit longitude value, not 64 bit, with the
first 10 bits being the "integer" part, and the remaining 22 the
"fraction" part, we'd already be at 3cm or better.
Looking at the PBF file format description we actually have
// Granularity, units of nanodegrees, used to store coordinates in
this block
optional int32 granularity = 17 [default=100];
// Offset value between the output coordinates coordinates and the
granularity grid, in units of nanodegrees.
optional int64 lat_offset = 19 [default=0];
optional int64 lon_offset = 20 [default=0];
So we are at 64bit precision in nanodegrees, which brings us into
the range of possibly being as precise as low as a few percent
of a micrometer ...
That should be good enough for a while ...
--
hartmut
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