Re: [OSM-talk] Mapping Elderly Homes, Health Systems, and Place names and boundaries (was : [CrisisMappers] Re: COVID-19 Response)

[Jean-Guilhem Cailton]

Sending this message again, this time without the included email
attachment, to fit under the 40 kb size limit, hopefully.

Jorieke message can also be found here:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/hot/2020-March/015169.html

Jean-Guilhem


Le 21/03/2020 à 10:06, Jean-Guilhem Cailton a écrit :
> Hi,
>
> Sharing today with the International OSM Community this message, that
> I sent to talk-fr yesterday, after seeing the positive reaction that
> it received here.
>
> The idea comes from the CrisisMappers mailing list, that is
> reactivating in front of the Coronavirus crisis, after several years
> of slow activity (since the high times of Haiti 2010 Earthquake response…)
>
> A suggestion for each local OSM Community is to map the Elderly homes
> on their territory: make sure that the very sensitive amenities in
> front of COVID-19 such as Elderly homes are well, and exhaustively,
> mapped in OSM.
> “In Italy in some of the elderly homes lost already more than 80% of
> their patients”…
>
> This data could in parallel be used as a basis for dynamic maps, for
> example of risk exposure, or protection measures, etc…
>
> Another relevant mapping theme that has been proposed, and adhered to,
> on talk-fr, is mapping the Health Systems. From Intensive Care Units,
> and their capabilities (number of beds, number of negative pressure
> rooms, etc…), all the way, thru more general hospitals and clinics, to
> individual physicists and other health care workers, pharmacies, etc…
>
> As Jorieke stated (from the point of view of MSF) on HOT mailing list,
> in thread “COVID-19 - How you can help” (see her email included as
> attachment), health facilities and Place Names (also of villages,
> neighborhoods, etc…), and Boundaries of these are useful for
> epidemiologist and other health professionals to do contact tracing,
> and mapping of cases.
>
> Please feel free to adapt and forward this to your local communities.
>
> Take good care, of Yourself, and of Others in the measure of Your
> possibilities.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Jean-Guilhem
>
>
> http://twitter.com/jgVisov
>
>
> Le 20/03/2020 à 12:18, Jean-Guilhem Cailton a écrit :
>> Bonjour,
>>
>> Je partage avec vous ce message de la liste CrisisMappers, qui se
>> réactive face à la crise du coronavirus, après plusieurs années de
>> fonctionnement au ralenti. (Depuis la grande époque du « pic » de la
>> réponse à la crise du tremblement de terre de 2010 en Haïti…)
>>
>> Il contient plusieurs idées pertinentes.
>>
>> Dont une que peut prendre en charge la communauté OSM France pour le
>> territoire national : s’assurer que les lieux très sensibles face au
>> COVID-19 que sont les maisons de retraites et les EHPAD sont bien, et
>> exhaustivement, cartographiés dans OSM (en Italie, certaines maisons
>> de retraite ont déjà perdu plus de 80 % de leurs pensionnaires…) Ces
>> données peuvent en parallèle servir de base à des cartes dynamiques,
>> par exemple sur le risque d’exposition ou les mesures de protection.
>>
>> (Et j’ai bien vu aussi le thème des services de réanimation, et
>> peut-être plus largement des capacités du système de santé, proposé
>> par Donat. Un thème n’exclut pas l’autre, et il y a certainement
>> assez de monde sur cette liste pour améliorer la cartographie de
>> plusieurs thèmes sensibles en parallèle. D’autres suggestions
>> judicieuses seraient d’ailleurs aussi les bienvenues. Et chacun·e
>> pourra choisir le thème sur lequel elle ou il se sent le plus à même
>> de contribuer le plus utilement, et le plus efficacement, en priorité.)
>>
>> Prenez bien soin de vous, et des autres si vous le pouvez.
>>
>> Jean-Guilhem
>>
>>
>>  Message transféré 
>> Sujet :  Re: [CrisisMappers] Re: COVID-19 Response
>> Date :   Wed, 18 Mar 2020 23:32:47 +0200
>> De : Giedrius K 
>> Répondre à : crisismapp...@googlegroups.com
>> Pour :   crisismapp...@googlegroups.com
>>
>>
>>
>> I see that focus of the talk/discussion is the COVID-19 Response in
>> United States, right? China, where society in most of the cases
>> listens, what the government says, while Europe, United States and
>> other western countries are more liberal and experience some issues
>> now. Liberal - I mean that they are not forced to stay in quarantine,
>> they are asked, but not forced. Thus our all elderly depends on
>> infected, if they will obey the rules or not.
>>
>> Viewing from First-Responders (Crisis Mappers), I think the best
>> approach in that case would be:
>>
>> 1. Develop a solution, which would help healthcare to monitor
>> quarantined people at home (not enough places in hospital)  via
>> technologies (Mobile phones, forms filled everyday, mapping solutions
>> for local healthcare experts).
>>
>> 2. Map/assess elderly distribution (especially lonely);
>>
>> 3. Develop a solution which would enable volunteers to take care (buy
>> food, inform healthcare if their health is deteriorating)  of elderly
>> (if not infected relatives cannot).

Re: [OSM-talk] Taking a break and a call for help

[Dave F via talk]

In my area, AL are adding legitimate data which helps improve the 
quality of the OSM database. I believe they make the same amount of 
errors as any other contributors, including experienced ones.


Unsure why he thinks OSMF should be keeping an eye on contributors 
purely because they're paid.
I doubt Paul, when he started his first *paid* job was an expert at it, 
& never made a mistake.


It sounds like Paul's got his knickers in a twist over something other 
than poor quality data.


DaveF

On 20/03/2020 23:07, Paul Johnson wrote:

So, you all know at this point that I've been heavily invested in editing
OSM and contributing to my maximum activity, less as a need to help a
charity and more of an obligation to the public to do the most good with
the short time I have on this planet.  However, I've had a few events come
up that are more or less killing my ability to keep up.

I'm taking a step back from being the primary editor in the Oklahoma region
until this passes.

3) Amazon Logistics and a revolving door team of one-edit-and-done spam
accounts keeps throwing paid contributions into Oklahoma that are of poorly
aligned, largely fictional and low quality.  I'm stuck cleaning up in a
neglected part of North America some particularly low quality edits with
limited resources and little ability to find more.  I hope other
contributors can help keep abreast and I hope OSM Foundation can help keep
paid contributors to account.  I don't think it's unreasonable to think
that paid mapper should be contributing *far* higher quality data than your
average volunteer first time mapper, and I think OSM needs to have a
serious conversation about minimum qualifications for paid mapping that I
simply don't have the time or energy for at this point.  Dealing with this
(and staying abreast extensive OkTrans highway modernization efforts
lately) have been a major part of my editing (and while OkTrans is
unavoidable, Amazon is inexcusable).

2) My truck was stolen last night
, along with the
dashcams I use for Mapillary, essentially making long range surveying
impossible and imperiling my survival since, if for nothing else, I need to
hit Costco for restocking my pantry and storeroom.  As such, I had to call
off work and spent most of the day today dealing with the police today.

1) I work in the IT department of a major regional hospital on the front
lines of the COVID-19 response in the US.  My vacation at the end of next
month, and my weekends for the next two months, have been cancelled, and
I'm expected to work 8+ hours a day, 7 days a week to help keep things up
and running so the medical staff don't have to think about the computers.

I really hope OSMF and the DWG takes a good, hard and critical look at
dealing with the low quality edits from Amazon and spammers while I deal
with acquiring another (or, best case, my stolen) pickup and dealing with
my professional life.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Taking a break and a call for help

[Jmapb]

On 3/21/2020 10:37 AM, Dave F via talk wrote:

In my area, AL are adding legitimate data which helps improve the
quality of the OSM database. I believe they make the same amount of
errors as any other contributors, including experienced ones.

Unsure why he thinks OSMF should be keeping an eye on contributors
purely because they're paid.


IMO, it's not that they're *paid* per se but rather that there's a huge
army of them, all presumably with the same training and the same orders.
If those orders lead to bad mapping, it gets amplified greatly. This
also happens with organized groups of volunteer mappers.

Anecdotally, in my area, Amazon's drones are not a big problem but
occasionally they're pretty irksome. Sometimes they add hundreds of
service roads in a week, and generally very sloppily. They draw roads at
odd angles. They connect alleys that don't connect. They connect roads
to subways. They draw parking aisles like winding forest paths. They
distort the highways they connect to. They use outdated and misaligned
imagery. Once in a while they'll delete entire roads or buildings.

I try to keep an eye on them and fix the errors and the most egregious
road geometry. When I leave changeset comments, they generally reply,
but there are so many of them that it feels like trying to cook rice one
grain at a time.

Jason



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[OSM-talk] healthsites.io breaks OSM data, do not use

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

the "healthsites.io" web app allows you to contribute data to OSM,
however if you modify existing OSM objects, it throws away all tags it
does not know of. Until this bug is fixed, please refrain from using
healthsites.io!

You can track progress here
https://github.com/healthsites/healthsites/issues/1357#issuecomment-602068556

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [OSM-talk] healthsites.io breaks OSM data, do not use

[Mikel Maron]

Yikes. Good catch and agreed. 

Can anyone track the extent of the damage, and prepare to restore the thrown 
away tags, while keeping the good new data?

* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron






On Saturday, March 21, 2020, 12:42:01 PM EDT, Frederik Ramm 
 wrote: 





Hi,

the "healthsites.io" web app allows you to contribute data to OSM,
however if you modify existing OSM objects, it throws away all tags it
does not know of. Until this bug is fixed, please refrain from using
healthsites.io!

You can track progress here
https://github.com/healthsites/healthsites/issues/1357#issuecomment-602068556

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [OSM-talk] Taking a break and a call for help

[Paul Johnson]

On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 11:37 AM Jmapb  wrote:

> I try to keep an eye on them and fix the errors and the most egregious
> road geometry. When I leave changeset comments, they generally reply,
> but there are so many of them that it feels like trying to cook rice one
> grain at a time.


Very much this.
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Re: [OSM-talk] healthsites.io breaks OSM data, do not use

[Simon Poole]

We currently are lacking a simple lightweight way of blocking write
access to the API, but it is being looked at.

This would normally be the ultima ratio as it essentially means all work
already done before an upload is lost, but in the case of a 1 change per
changeset app as healthsite.io it could be justified.

Simon

Am 21.03.2020 um 17:44 schrieb Mikel Maron:
> Yikes. Good catch and agreed. 
>
> Can anyone track the extent of the damage, and prepare to restore the thrown 
> away tags, while keeping the good new data?
>
> * Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Saturday, March 21, 2020, 12:42:01 PM EDT, Frederik Ramm 
>  wrote: 
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> the "healthsites.io" web app allows you to contribute data to OSM,
> however if you modify existing OSM objects, it throws away all tags it
> does not know of. Until this bug is fixed, please refrain from using
> healthsites.io!
>
> You can track progress here
> https://github.com/healthsites/healthsites/issues/1357#issuecomment-602068556
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>



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Re: [OSM-talk] Taking a break and a call for help

[Greg Troxel]

Dave F via talk  writes:

> In my area, AL are adding legitimate data which helps improve the
> quality of the OSM database. I believe they make the same amount of
> errors as any other contributors, including experienced ones.
>
> Unsure why he thinks OSMF should be keeping an eye on contributors
> purely because they're paid.
> I doubt Paul, when he started his first *paid* job was an expert at
> it, & never made a mistake.
>
> It sounds like Paul's got his knickers in a twist over something other
> than poor quality data.

This really seems unfair.

When someone maps for OSM because they want to, they have goals and a
typically a good attitude about community norms.

When someone is a a paid mapper, their goals come from the person who is
paying them, and they don't necessarily care about the overall health of
OSM.

So this "paid mapping is a bit scary" notion is 100% accurate.  That
doesn't mean all paid apping is bad; were I to take money from the local
chamber of commerce to make sure all their businesses were on the map
with opening hours and other details, all of it would be done in a way
that other mappers would think is correct, or at least just as correct
as if I were doing it for fun.  But the idea that people are hired into
a position and given instructions might lead to bad outcomes is quite
sensible.  Really these edits are not so different from mechanical
edits, and I think the organizers need to own the responsibilility for
high quality, and the standard should be quite a bit better than normal
hand mapping norms.




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Re: [OSM-talk] healthsites.io breaks OSM data, do not use

[Andy Townsend]

On 21/03/2020 16:44, Mikel Maron wrote:

Yikes. Good catch and agreed.

Can anyone track the extent of the damage, and prepare to restore the thrown 
away tags, while keeping the good new data?


28 so far may need looking at:

https://osmcha.org/?filters=%7B%22editor%22%3A%5B%7B%22label%22%3A%22Healthsites.io%20%22%2C%22value%22%3A%22Healthsites.io%20%22%7D%5D%2C%22modify__gte%22%3A%5B%7B%22label%22%3A%221%22%2C%22value%22%3A%221%22%7D%5D%7Dq

(that's changesets with that "created_by" which modified at least one item)

I'd suggest it'd make most sense if in the first instance that local 
mappers comment on problematic changesets


Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: [OSM-talk] Taking a break and a call for help

[Paul Johnson]

On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 9:36 AM Dave F  wrote:

> In my area, AL are adding legitimate data which helps improve the quality
> of the OSM database. I believe they make the same amount of errors as any
> other contributors, including experienced ones.
>
> Unsure why he thinks OSMF should be keeping an eye on contributors purely
> because they're paid.
> I doubt Paul, when he started his first *paid* job was an expert at it, &
> never made a mistake.
>

My first job, oddly enough, was with the Boy Scouts of America.  A
situation directly analogous to OSM.  I was a Scout for about a decade
before I found myself on payroll.  Not to say I didn't make mistakes as an
employee (I was 14), but I found myself on payroll because I rose to that
level, not because some third party decided I should start scattergun
efforts.  Anybody paid to contribute to OSM *must* be capable of setting
the example, as far as I'm concerned.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Taking a break and a call for help

[Paul Johnson]

On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 3:59 PM Greg Troxel  wrote:

> Dave F via talk  writes:
>
> > In my area, AL are adding legitimate data which helps improve the
> > quality of the OSM database. I believe they make the same amount of
> > errors as any other contributors, including experienced ones.
> >
> > Unsure why he thinks OSMF should be keeping an eye on contributors
> > purely because they're paid.
> > I doubt Paul, when he started his first *paid* job was an expert at
> > it, & never made a mistake.
> >
> > It sounds like Paul's got his knickers in a twist over something other
> > than poor quality data.
>
> This really seems unfair.
>
> When someone maps for OSM because they want to, they have goals and a
> typically a good attitude about community norms.
>
> When someone is a a paid mapper, their goals come from the person who is
> paying them, and they don't necessarily care about the overall health of
> OSM.
>

This is accurate.  I don't consider it unreasonable to expect a paid mapper
to have a higher level of professionalism and due care than the
volunteers.  So, I will say, I am *definitely not* holding the Amazon
Logistics mappers to the same standard I hold other volunteers.  I hold
them to *a much higher standard*.


> Really these edits are not so different from mechanical
> edits, and I think the organizers need to own the responsibilility for
> high quality, and the standard should be quite a bit better than normal
> hand mapping norms.
>

 I honestly don't think we could get worse results than Amazon Logistics is
contributing now if we outsourced map editing to Amazon Mechanical Turk for
a penny an edit.
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