Re: [OSM-talk] Navit on the Asus EeePC with Debian Testing

[Matthew]

 Niccolo wrote:

> It seems that the touchscreen will not be present in the coming 
model.

And it will also be about 50% more expensive and probably have an inferior 
battery life.  Consider it a different product, not a successor.

Off topic I know, but I presume the upcoming Firefox 3, with its page scaling, 
will make web browsing on an 800 pixel-wide screen a lot less painful.






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Re: [OSM-talk] pronunciation tag

[Matthew]

Here's another one to throw into the mix:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/commissioning/delivery/phonetic.pdf

from

http://www.bbc.co.uk/commissioning/delivery/pron.shtml



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Re: [OSM-talk] Recent changes to slippymap Mapnik rendering

[Matthew]

Apologies if someone's mentioned it already, but I'd like to express my 
appreciation for the new symbol for a barrier across the road.  A simple line 
is exactly what it should be; a letter G in the middle of the road was rather 
confusing!



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Re: [OSM-talk] lists and # of subscribers

[matthew-osm]

Hi,

On Fri, Sep 04, 2009 at 06:11:27PM -0400, Richard Weait wrote:
> I often find myself wondering how many are subscribed to the various
> osm lists.

Out of interest, as a snapshot just now:

  1146 on talk
  719 on dev
  258 on talk-gb

Cheers,

-- 
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[OSM-talk] Wikimapia

[Matthew Luehrmann]

Wikimapia at: http://wikimapia.org/wiki/Main_Page seems to have the same
mission as OSM.  Has anyone contacted them to talk about merging the two
projects so that we can both accomplish more?  They definitely have better
usability and explain how to contribute better.  They also seem to have
permission to display their data with Google's aerial imagery and trace from
Google imagery.

Cheers,
Matthew


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Re: [OSM-talk] OSMF: The people you are going to hand over your OSM data ...

[Matthew Luehrmann]

Who controls OSM?  I really am not sure.  My current understanding is that OSMF 
controls OSM, but calls it "supporting": "The OpenStreetMap Foundation is an 
international non-profit organisation supporting but not controlling the 
project."  

Maybe a better question that will get a less ambiguous answer, and really shows 
who is in control of OSM, is: Who owns the www.openstreetmap.org domain name.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Mapping canals

[matthew-osm]

On Tue, Jan 22, 2008 at 02:25:57PM +, Gervase Markham wrote:
> Any GPS can distinguish two points 70ft apart, can't they?

With up to about a 20m error (which in practice seems to be about right), you
might be out by ~65ft.

(Granted, both points are likely to be out by the same amount if taken at the
same time, but it's still a bit close IMO.)
 
Cheers,

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Mapping canals

[matthew-osm]

On Tue, Jan 22, 2008 at 09:44:32PM +, Stephen Gower wrote:
> > (amenity=pumpout;water_point), and to come up with a separate tag for  
> > what we refer to as "Elsan disposal" (a drain where you can empty your  
> > Porta-Potti!). amenity=poo_hole could be misconstrued.
> 
>   That reminds me of something else I meant to add, which you've
>   partically gone into here - nto all "sanitary_stations" are equal. 
>   You've mentioned some difference, but even with pumpout there's the
>   question of if it's self-operated or not.

  amenity=sanitary_station
  shovel=provide_your_own

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Bridges / viaducts for railways

[matthew-osm]

On Mon, Jan 28, 2008 at 05:57:24PM +, Tom Chance wrote:
> I'm a bit confused about these tags:
> 
> railway=viaduct
> bridge=yes
> cutting=yes
> embankment=yes
> 
> Why is it not a property like bridge, cutting etc. and will it render
> correctly? Should it be changed to viaduct=yes?

Ewww, yuck... boolean flags.

Personally I would tag as:

  railway=rail
  bridge=viaduct

for cutting I would have thought more like (this is a suggestion, there
is probably a better way):

  railway_level=-1  or  railway_level=cutting

and for embankment

  railway_level=1  or  railway_level=embankment

Map features has the really odd (IMO):

  railway=viaduct (node)
  highway=viaduct (node)

with the comment of something like "A high or long bridge...". "long"
and "node" don't go together as far as I am concerned ;-). You also don't
know what type of railway goes over the viaduct, as you lose the railway=
information.

A possible, but slightly odd, example would be an underground train going
above ground and over a viaduct - it would be railway=subway, bridge=viaduct.
If memory is correct, I think the DLR does that in some places in London
(railway=light_rail, bridge=viaduct)?

Not sure what others do, though...

Cheers,

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] "Crudely-drawn pint glasses"

[matthew-osm]

Hey ho,

On Tue, Jan 29, 2008 at 09:21:08PM +, Gervase Markham wrote:
> As always, forgive me if this is an old issue, but: I noticed that an 
> organisation I have contact with has a map in their "how to get here" 
> leaflet, which they may well have just copied from somewhere. I'd like 
> to recommend they use an OSM map instead, but looking at the area:
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.45561&lon=-0.96828&zoom=16&layers=B0FT
> I find that the area they would screenshot is covered with crudely-drawn 
> pint glasses.[0]

> Asking them to install and configure their own copy of Mapnik seems 
> somewhat unreasonable...

You could try osmps, and then convert the PostScript to the
required format. It has the added advantage, IMHO, that the
pint glass is much nicer ;-). It's not as polished as
Mapnik though, but easier to print. The styles need more
work.

  http://dl.newtoncomputing.co.uk/readingex.pdf

  http://svn.openstreetmap.org/applications/rendering/osmps

The latest osmps (still on my computer) does better things
with bounding boxes so the output from the SVN one needs a
bit of cropping to get right.

-- 
Matthew

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Re: [OSM-talk] Bridges / viaducts for railways

[matthew-osm]

Hi,

On Mon, Jan 28, 2008 at 07:16:25PM -, Andy Robinson (blackadder) wrote:
> >> Why is it not a property like bridge, cutting etc. and
> >> will it render correctly? Should it be changed to
> >> viaduct=yes?
> >
> >Ewww, yuck... boolean flags.
> >
> >Personally I would tag as:
> >
> >  railway=rail
> >  bridge=viaduct
> >
> 
> bridge and viaduct are two separate types of structure so
> strictly speaking bridge=viaduct is incorrect.

They might be different to you as a civil engineer... to me
a viaduct looks like lots of bridges next to each other
(i.e. huh, what's the difference, really?) ;-)

Actually, it's more of a thing I have about using on/off,
yes/no, true/false type tags - they generally are not right
in my opinion.

For instance, take the same principle applied to roads

  highway=yes
  motorway=yes

We use highway=motorway here - if nothing else it stops you doing the silly

  highway=yes
  motorway=yes
  secondary=yes

Similarly, something can't be both a bridge and a viaduct.
Therefore you want something like

  over=bridge

or

  over=viaduct

a) you reduce the keyspace, and b) you can't have

  bridge=yes
  viaduct=yes

As usual in my case "over" is a bad name for a key. I guess
that's why I stuck to the more generic "bridge" before, with
"bridge=yes" being the general case. It's the same as saying
bridge=suspension, rather than bridge=yes, suspension=yes
(or even bridge_type=suspension - eugh).

Maybe something like "transit=" would be better (in the
sense of "how this way gets from A to B") and could then
include tunnel, cutting, embankment, etc in the list of
values as well as bridge and viaduct.

Basically, I would say that every "object-type" key (i.e.
not things like name=) should have as many non-coexistant
values* as possible (if that makes sense), and that single
flags (i.e.  where a key only ever has one value) should be
discouraged wherever possible.

* i.e. you can't have both on the same "object", such as
  suspension and viaduct

> We already use layer=+/-5 for setting display layering and
> I always envisaged the same simple system could be used
> for cuttings and embankments.

Yes. I guess the issue here is that cuttings/embankments are
usually drawn in on maps. Maybe it's a renderer problem.

> I'd prefer to see railway=rail for all rail corridors and
> a secondary tag for the type of service/stock used - ie
> metrorail/subway/underground/freight etc etc etc

Ditto to the above. railway=rail is basically the same as
railway=yes if you say that. A railway can't be both subway
and normal rail, so you therefore use railway=rail or
railway=subway etc. If nothing else you know that it's some
type or other of railway, without even having to look at the
value (same for bridge, etc).

Anyway, that's my computer science thinking - back to your
civil engineer ideas... ;-)

Cheers,

-- 
Matthew

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Re: [OSM-talk] how can I print a atlas ?

[matthew-osm]

On Wed, Jan 30, 2008 at 03:35:02PM +0100, Axel R. wrote:
> I would like print the map (to ckeck IRL the streets...)
> How can I do this easely ?

osmps?

http://svn.openstreetmap.org/applications/rendering/osmps

Generates PostScript from a .osm file. Example code at the bottom will split
the map up into "pages" if you want to produce a book, too (another reminder to
self to checkin latest updates).

-- 
Matthew

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[OSM-talk] Green Map

[Matthew Perry]

Just curious - has anyone had any experience using OSM data for a "green map"?

"""Green Map (R) System promotes inclusive participation in
sustainable community development around the world, using mapmaking as
our medium."""  (http://www.greenmap.org)

Seems like there could potentially be a large degree of collaboration
between the two projects.


-- 
Matthew T. Perry
http://www.perrygeo.net

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Re: [OSM-talk] Move tagging RfCs/voting to extra list?

[matthew-osm]

Hi,

On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 01:08:33PM +, Nick Black wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 15, 2008 at 1:03 PM, Frederik Ramm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >  You win, I did't know mailman had this feature. (Sounds to me like a
> >  positive selection though, i.e. you have to defined what you want, not
> >  what you don't want?)
> 
> So this feature has to be enabled by the list admins, it seems.
> 
> Matthew - can we enable this feature?

Yeah, don't see why not. It'll cut some of the stuff out of my
mailbox too ;-)

I've played around with Mailman and worked out how to do the
"negative selection" thing. It's not obvious - set up a topic
that will never match anything, and then tick the "I also want to
receive messages that do not match a topic".

What topics would be useful? Is [tagging] in the Subject: header
what's wanted just now?

Cheers,

-- 
Matthew

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Re: [OSM-talk] [tagging] RFC open - new key - aqueduct=yes

[matthew-osm]

Hi Gerv,

On Sat, Feb 16, 2008 at 09:35:42AM +, Gervase Markham wrote:
> Gervase Markham wrote:
> > Currently, we have "waterway=aqueduct" on nodes only. It seems to me to 
> > make much more sense to treat aqueducts like bridges, with which they 
> > are closely analogous. So we should replace it with "aqueduct=yes", 
> > applicable to nodes or ways.
> > 
> > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Proposed_features/Aqueduct
> 
> The (limited) consensus on this page seems to be that we should abandon 
> aqueduct= and viaduct= and just use bridge= for everything.
> 
> While it seems to me that this isn't current consensus or practice, it 
> isn't necessarily nuts; I've already proposed bridge_type, and someone 
> has said that it's easier to have alternative values for bridge, so 
> instead of bridge=yes, we have bridge=motorised_swing, etc.
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Proposed_features/Bridge_Type
> 
> So why not bridge=viaduct, bridge=aqueduct?

You might want to look at the discussion a few weeks ago:

http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2008-January/022583.html

Personally, I share your view about the bridge= tag, having a
basic dislike for boolean values unless absolutely necessary.

Someone suggested structure= - I quite like that (it also solves
the "viaduct isn't a bridge" argument from Andy ;-) ).

Cheers,

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] generating maps from shapefiles?

[Matthew Perry]

Since OSM has a quite different data structure than shapefiles
(topological vs. simple features) it can be difficult. Plus there is
no generic solution for converting the attributes into OSM tags.
You'll likely have to script a custom solution. A good place to start
would be http://boston.freemap.in/osm/files/mgis_to_osm.py or
http://perrygeo.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/gis-bin/nhd_to_osm.py

- matt

On Sat, Mar 8, 2008 at 6:19 AM, k b <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi.
>
>  Is it possible to convert the shape files into oms
>  files or directly into garmin img files?
>
>  If it is possible, where can i read more?
>
>
>  Tanks!
>  Karl.
>
>
>   
> 
>  Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page.
>  http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>
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>



-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Woodland on a university campus (using layers to make areas render)

[matthew-osm]

On Sun, Mar 16, 2008 at 02:44:21PM +, OJ W wrote:
> Where an area of natural=wood is inside an area of amenity=university, the
> woodland doesn't appear unless you put it at layer>0
> 
> http://informationfreeway.org/?lat=52.9356064080633&lon=-1.2017670228240827&zoom=17&layers=B000F000F
> 
> however, that makes the roads 'underneath' the woodland disappear from the
> map
> 
> similarly with woodland inside a leisure=park
> 
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=52.94495&lon=-1.21801&zoom=17&layers=0BFT
> 
> any ideas?

I'd suggest that this is an ordering bug in the renderer - the
university area is a non-physical thing that just identifies the
ground covered (mostly like landuse=residential, etc[1]). The
woodland is a real physical thing, so should always be rendered
to show in preference to the university area, IMO.

Cheers,

-- 
Matthew


[1] The main difference being that the university land is
probably all owned by the university, whereas the residential
land is owned by different people.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Easy way to export to Illustrator?

[matthew-osm]

Hi,

On Fri, Apr 04, 2008 at 09:30:20PM +0200, Axel von Matern wrote:
> Is there a easy way to get my OSM data into Illustrator?

Does Illustrator import PostScript? In which case you might be
able to use osmps[1] (save from JOSM and then run osmps to create
PostScript) - otherwise take the next step and run ps2pdf.

HTH,

-- 
Matthew

[1] http://svn.openstreetmap.org/applications/rendering/osmps

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[OSM-talk] NaviGPS problems (lockups) + reset solution

[matthew-osm]

Hi all,

Just for the record, for all those that have NaviGPS devices, or
their derivative.

I've got two of these, and had problems with both[0]. The second one
I got locked up after a while of using a bad SD card. It froze
hard and would not power off. It was under warranty, and Storage
Depot kindly replaced it.

The older one (it's getting on for a couple of years old now)
started to go very slowly the other day. You'd press a button and
it took 15 seconds or more to respond. It still powered off and
on OK, though.

Switched it on today, and it would not power off again. Nothing
working, locked hard. I had imagined that the case would be
welded, but thankfully it is screwed together. Therefore there is
a real power switch...!

Unscrew the 7 screws, breaking the "QC OK" seal under the flap.
Lift off the top cover. Then you can unscrew one screw in the PCB
and lift that off, too. Carefully disconnect the battery at its
connector and reconnect after a few seconds. Put back together
again and have a working GPS :-)

I hate all these modern devices with soft power buttons...

Hope that helps someone. (If it's still under warranty I'd
replace it, though. Disclaimer on above procedure, of course -
you keep the pieces if you break it.)

Cheers,

-- 
Matthew


[0] Not that it's a bad bit of kit; I really like them. Just the
lack of real power button has always worried me, and justifiably
so.

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Re: [OSM-talk] path or byway ?

[matthew-osm]

Hi,

On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 06:13:39PM +0100, David Earl wrote:
> They are universally rural. They are tracks, yes, but formally public 
> whereas a track will typically be associated with a farm ore similar. 

Mostly rural, but not all. There are two in Loughborough that I
am aware of - one "Cross Hill Lane":

http://informationfreeway.org/?lat=52.756383670302455&lon=-1.2154373874651676&zoom=17&layers=B000F000F

The other unnamed, but just labelled as "byway open to all
traffic" - on the edge of town, and rather useless as after a
while it turns into a private road, no turning room.

http://informationfreeway.org/?lat=52.75253955766346&lon=-1.2367663089318803&zoom=17&layers=B000F000F

Both are surfaced, and once would have been in the country, of
course (like most old roads!). There are many in Suffolk, some
tracks, others surfaced, such as

http://informationfreeway.org/?lat=52.23996492630855&lon=1.0154108416754053&zoom=17&layers=B000F000F

where Swilltub Lane (going North) is a restricted byway, but you
can only walk down it as it's all overgrown (in the last 30-40
years or so). Hundred Lane (going East from Swilltub Lane) is a
BOAT but indestinguishable from any unclassified road (which it
is to the West) apart from a sign saying byway.

Byways should be signed in theory, just like a footpath, but
might not be of course. Anything labelled "RUPP"[1] is now a
byway, since about 2006 (sadly, in my opinion - it's nice to have
some strange historic stuff around sometimes). There's an
(ex-)RUPP in grey here:

http://informationfreeway.org/?lat=52.23587828332072&lon=0.988159603986547&zoom=17&layers=B000F000F

I usually label with something like "uk:row=B.O.A.T.", or
similar, at least before highway=byway (oxymoron=true? ;-) )
started to be used.

Cheers,

-- 
Matthew

[1] Road used as a public path

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[OSM-talk] Announce: Another JOSM plugin for PhotoMapping (MOM users, take note)

[Matthew Flint]

Hello List,

"ImageWayPoint", a new plugin for JOSM, is intended to help with
photo-mapping, and may be useful to people who use "mom" [1] to create
GPX track logs. "mom" stores the image name in the waypoint inside the
GPX file. This plugin matches filenames stored in the waypoint to
images loaded into JOSM.

* Installation

Install in the usual way. In the "Plugins" part of the JOSM
"Preferences" dialog, download the list of plugins, select
"ImageWayPoint" from the list and press OK. Restart JOSM.

* Usage

Open a GPX file in JOSM like normal. Then use the "File->Open Images
with ImageWayPoint" to load your images. When images can be matched to
waypoints, they'll appear on a new layer. Images can be rotated as
necessary.

* Credits

This code is strongly influenced by (and the icons shamelessly stolen
from) AgPifoJ. Thanks to Christian Gallioz for making AgPifoJ, and its
source code, available.

Feedback welcome :-)

Matthew


[1] http://mom.poco.org.uk/

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[OSM-talk] [tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (historic=stocks)

[Matthew Flint]

Deal all,

I'd like to propose a new tag, "historic=stocks". Stocks are devices
used in medieval times for public humiliation and corporal punishment,
and are still to be found (but not used, alas!) around the UK.

I would welcome comments on the Proposed Features page:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Proposed_features/stocks

Matthew

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Re: [OSM-talk] Campus map - Who's got a good one?

[matthew-osm]

On Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 10:29:26AM +0100, Jonathan Bennett wrote:
> Ian Dees wrote:
> > It might be interesting to start a "draw your campus" competition
> > similar to the one that Google did for its Sketchup application, but on
> > OSM. What d'ya think?
> 
> I think we should actually ask the marketing departments of the
> Universities in question to arrange a donation of their own maps and
> data to the project. I'll ask Surrey -- anyone else up for it?

If they are anything like the University of Leicester, where I
work, then the internal maps will be based on OS data. Worth
asking, but don't be surprised if this is the answer!

Cheers,

-- 
Matthew

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[OSM-talk] Spam in OSM diary :-(

[Matthew Flint]

http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Ickogg/diary/3606

Hope this isn't the start of something messy :-(

Matthew

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-GB] Event: "A New Cycle Map for Oxford", 22nd January 2009

[Matthew Westcott]

On 18 Jan 2009, at 15:04, Gregory wrote:

> What happened to Oxford University using OpenStreetMap?
>
> They still have it live (without attribution):
> http://www.ox.ac.uk/applications/dynamic/map.rm?location=Trinity%20College&id=486&postcode=OX2+6UD
> But the college pages link to a google maps implementation:
> http://www.ox.ac.uk/colleges/colleges_and_halls_az/trinity.html


Hi,
This was covered on talk-gb just over a year ago...
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2007-December/thread.html#2592

In short - it was due to the availability of more accurate data (for  
the markers - there was no issue with the accuracy of OSM itself) via  
the OXPOINTS project . The Google  
map was produced as part of that project, independently of the overall  
website development, and the Powers That Be elected to go with it as a  
ready-made solution rather than integrating it into the OSM map.

(Incidentally, I do see an attribution on the original page - "Mapping  
data provided by OpenStreetMap under an open license". That's correct  
isn't it?)

- Matt


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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-GB] Oxford UK 1:2500 O/S maps from 1958: copyright status of in-house copies?

[Matthew Westcott]

On 14 Feb 2009, at 15:14, Andrew Chadwick (mailing lists) wrote:

> So my question is: does in-house (no doubt _licensed_) copying at an
> unknown time affect copyright status as far as OSM is concerned, and
> does running off paper copies from microfilm at an unknown time, from
> film (re)published at an unknown time (but with apparently acceptably
> dates for the original) affect whether we can make copies for tracing
> into OSM?

Just an armchair non-expert on copyright law here, but according to  
the UK Copyright Service's factsheet on derivative works:
http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p22_derivative_works.en.htm
"to be subject to copyright the creation of the derivative work must  
itself be an original work of skill, labour and judgement; minor  
alterations that do not substantially alter the original would not  
qualify."

- which would suggest that purely mechanical reproductions of an  
original work don't receive copyright protection in themselves, and as  
long as the original is out of copyright then there's no problem with  
deriving data from them.

- Matt


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[OSM-talk] Are OSM tags case sensitive?

[Matthew Deabreu]

Hello All,

Just a quick question, are OSM tags case sensitive?

I have seen quite a bit of discussion about the topic however I have not
seen a definitive answer. I am wondering because I work at Safe Software
Inc. and the product we are working on currently treats them as case
sensitive. Should we make our product (FME) treat OSM tags as case
insensitive and convert attributes to all lower case?

Thank you for any help!

-- 
*Matthew DeAbreu* | Development Intern

Safe Software Inc.
Suite 2017, 7445 - 132nd Street, Surrey, BC Canada V3W 1J8
*T* 604.501.9985 x 225  | *F* 604.501.9965
matthew.deab...@safe.com | www.safe.com

FME 2012 World Tour | Spring | 30+ Cities Worldwide & Online
Join us at an FME User Meeting near you. See FME 2012 in action, discover
new tips and tricks and connect with fellow FME users.



Register today at www.safe.com/wt2012
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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[Matthew Woehlke]

On 02/08/2020 06.05, Simon Poole wrote:

Extending this a bit further, you could just as well say, given that all
current and actively maintained general purpose editors require 1-2
FTEs, the OSMF should simply block all non-iD editors and tell the
developers to either work on iD or go home.


For OSMF *funding* purposes this might happen, but telling volunteers 
what they should or should not volunteer to work on should be a hard no-go.



iD is branching out in to more and more niches, reducing the
breathing space for anything else massively and other editor use has 
effectively been stagnating for a long time. While people will 
automatically try to start listing special use cases that can "only"

be done with editor XX, the problem is that these are special cases
and unlikely to be worth spending a couple of $100k on per year
(virtually or real) for the small number of users that will remain as
iD gains more and more features.


There are a few things iD does "better" than JOSM¹, but it is *far* from 
feature parity... and one use case which I consider *absolutely 
essential* before it could be considered a JOSM replacement is the 
ability to load and save local files (notably including shapefiles and 
geotiffs) and work on non-OSM layers... and I'm not sure that will ever 
happen. JOSM isn't "really" an OSM editor, it's a GIS tool that 
"happens" to have really good OSM integration. (Note also that these 
features are *mandatory* for doing imports from other GIS data.)


I've been using JOSM a lot lately, and AFAIK iD is quite some ways from 
matching even some of its more "basic" functionality. Angle constrained 
ways, lane view, way smoothing features, ability to mirror content 
(symmetry), and more. Relations are *much* easier in JOSM. Heck, just 
*selecting things* is much easier.


I'm not saying iD is *bad*. It's a very nice editor *for its 
capabilities*. It's great for making *small* changes or introducing 
someone to OSM editing... but there are a lot of use cases still where 
JOSM is just a far superior tool. Maybe in *5-10* years that will 
change, but I'm not going to hold my breath on it overtaking JOSM in 1-2.


(¹ iD can 'square up' individual nodes and does a passable job with 
*mostly* orthogonal shapes with the odd 45° angle. There are ways to 
work with those in JOSM, but generally speaking if you try to square a 
shape with a single 'wild' node, JOSM turns the whole thing into a hot 
mess.)


--
Matthew

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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[Matthew Woehlke]

On 04/08/2020 05.30, pangoSE wrote:
On older hardware like my 2 core 2ghz laptop iD is slow. Loading 
while saving an edit is slow, while JOSM is always fast and saving 
does not close the edit view so you can continue without waiting for

a browser to load the iD editor again which is also slow.
I want your JVM :-). I have yet to encounter a Java program (including 
JOSM) that isn't sluggish. (JOSM could be worse, but it's nowhere near 
what I'd expect from a well-written *native* application.)



Matthew Woehlke skrev: (3 augusti 2020 16:14:13 CEST)

(¹ iD can 'square up' individual nodes and does a passable job with
*mostly* orthogonal shapes with the odd 45° angle. There are ways to
work with those in JOSM, but generally speaking if you try to square a
shape with a single 'wild' node, JOSM turns the whole thing into a hot
mess.)


This sounds like a bug. Have you reported it?


Ah... I partially retract that. I think the problem is that I'm trying 
to make it work more like iD which permits *selective* squaring. I 
probably have some nodes selected that's making it go bonkers.


Really, this is a missing feature; I want a way to either square up 
individual nodes, or only angles that are within some delta of 90° 
already (and maybe to snap other angles to e.g. 45°).


Meanwhile, I've gotten better at creating scratch geometry to help with 
construction, but I would practically *kill* for JOSM to have FreeCAD's 
suite of sketch constraints ;-).


--
Matthew

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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[Matthew Woehlke]

On 04/08/2020 08.10, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

On 4. Aug 2020, at 13:58, Matthew Woehlke wrote:

but I would practically *kill* for JOSM to have FreeCAD's suite of sketch 
constraints ;-).


you’re aware that there are sketch constraints for configurable
angles (90, 60, 45 etc) and projection snaps? Hit 2 times „a“ (angle
display becomes green)
Yes. They're better than nothing, but nowhere near what I'm talking 
about. As an example, consider the attached simple FreeCAD sketch which 
is roughly representative of some buildings I've mapped recently. The 
dome in front is centered (segments on either side constrained to be 
equal). The "wings" in back are symmetrical.


It's *possible* to do this sort of thing in JOSM with a lot of care and 
by building part of the geometry, then constructing a bunch of "scratch" 
geometry in order to construct a symmetry line, then doing a copy, paste 
in place, mirror, reverse, stitch the parts together... but God help you 
if you make a mistake and have to start over.


In FreeCAD, you just slap on some equality constraints, angle 
constraints, parallel constraints, etc. and then you can *move* any of 
the nodes and everything else will update to preserve the applied 
constraints. (The one things it's missing that would be helpful is a 
*colinear* constraint; you have to simulate that with parallel and 
coincident constraints using "construction" lines; those are the blue 
ones. A colinear constraint could eliminate the need for those 
construction lines.) This is the major difference, though. In JOSM, 
constraints only apply when you initially draw something, so if you get 
it wrong, you have to start over. In FreeCAD, they're a dynamic system; 
if you get it wrong, just nudge it and the whole thing updates *while 
preserving your constraints*.


Oh, and *arcs*. The ability to define a segment that should be a perfect 
arc, and optionally make it tangent or perpendicular to its neighbors, 
would be a major boon. Again, I can fake it with a bunch of scratch 
construction, but if it's wrong, I have to start over and hope my next 
guess is better. In FreeCAD, just drag the end points until it looks right.


Then there are distance constraints, which would be incredibly useful if 
you're mapping something with known dimensions.


Seriously, give FreeCAD a spin. It's pretty awesome for this sort of 
relatively simple 2D stuff. Also look at some of the buildings I've done 
recently; the symmetrical ones don't just *look* symmetrical, they *are* 
symmetrical (within the limits of JOSM's abilities). I've also done a 
lot of stuff like roads that are perfectly centered in between parking 
spaces, groups of aligned buildings that are *actually* aligned, and 
whatnot. It's do-able, but it would be *s* much easier with 
FreeCAD-style constraints.


Obviously, this would all almost surely be a temporary mode (maybe it 
persists as long as JOSM is open, but isn't uploaded), but since you 
usually draw once, that would be fine. (Bonus points if JOSM could 
automatically recreate constraints for ways that don't have any. It 
shouldn't be hard to guess equality, perpendicular and colinear 
constraints, at least.)


--
Matthew
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[OSM-talk] Mapping feature ideas (was: Funding of three infrastructure projects)

[Matthew Woehlke]

On 04/08/2020 11.08, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

On 4. Aug 2020, at 16:26, Matthew Woehlke wrote

Obviously, this would all almost surely be a temporary mode (maybe
it persists as long as JOSM is open, but isn't uploaded), but since
you usually draw once, that would be fine. (Bonus points if JOSM
could automatically recreate constraints for ways that don't have
any. It shouldn't be hard to guess equality, perpendicular and
colinear constraints, at least.)


rather than guessing, I sometimes have wished there had been a way to
actually store relationships (geometric) in the data, something like
these buildings all align their front facades, or this door (or
building position) is aligned to this street axis, etc., so when
people moved the street, the building would move as well. Would
become very complex if it would be used extensively (basically you
might move the whole city by moving a node, or it could lead to
unresolvable constraints, etc.), so I think it’s not gonna come. Just
accept some fuzziness ;-)


Sure, I can see the use. I was thinking in terms of things that can be 
done without schema changes.


Besides the troubles of trying to resolve an overconstrained system 
(something I've run into with FreeCAD for systems that are probably much 
more simple than what OSM might become!), another issue is that editors 
that don't support the constraints — I'm looking at iD, mostly because I 
shudder to think of the complexity and performance of implementing a 
solver in a web browser! — will tend to break them often. So, I'm not 
going to hold my breath ;-).



People are overrating rectangular buildings anyway, they might look
more correct than a freehand approximation, but they typically aren’t
(too short, too long, too wide, wrong angle not parallel to the
street, not parallel to their neighbors, etc.), sometimes resulting
from misinterpretation of aerial imagery and conscious or unconscious
generalization (representing with a single rectangle what in reality
is a rectangle with an oriel or a cutting or some other added shape).


Sure, I've seen some overly generalized buildings. I tend to model with 
more detail. (See for example 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/44931534, which is also a good example 
of where more constraints would have been useful; there are at least 
three axes of symmetry, and the four corners at the extrema of the 
longer axis *realy* look like they line up.) Still, we *do* tend to 
build things with right angles, so right angles are very often correct. 
At least for buildings. (Roads can easily get more sloppy.)



And sometimes a lack of diligence (e.g. when a building is on the
crossing of two roads which aren’t orthogonal, it is not unlikely
that the building isn’t orthogonal either, and it might be easily
visible in the imagery, but if you only have a hammer, you might be
tempted to use it for the screws as well).


Well, that's a user problem :-). I've also run into many, many instances 
of things that seem like they *ought* to line up, but if aligning is 
noticeably different from the imagery, I won't force it. Most of what 
I'm picky about is within individual buildings, or stuff like aligning 
parking aisles in the middle of the spaces because it renders better and 
the way is (since it's a line, not an area) necessarily an approximation 
anyway.


Conversely, I'll get a little more "sloppy" with placement, because I 
generally trace roof lines and then try to shift the shape to compensate 
for parallax and my best guess at how much the roof overhangs the wall. 
Again, see the previously cited example and compare how it lines up with 
the corners *on the ground* and not the roof line. See the adjacent 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/830822584 for an even more pronounced 
example; this one is straddling separate images that were stitched 
together, so there is a discontinuity in the parallax going through the 
middle of it. Constraints actually *help* here because I can make a 
reasoned guess at stuff like "these walls probably line up" and use that 
to try to deduce the actual shape when the imagery is messed up.


Of course, a lot of this will depend on the quality/resolution of the 
imagery available. On the US East Coast, MapBox is very high resolution, 
which help significantly. Trying to map to the level of detail I'm 
typically doing is probably not possible with lower resolution imagery.


--
Matthew

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