Re: [OSM-talk] Why the HOT obsession with low quality buildings in Africa ?

[Robert Banick]

Many humanitarian groups use buildings as a rough proxy for population
(density), or to ensure every household is covered during a vaccination
campaign, or simply to navigate. Likely they use them for a combination of
the three. As Phil says, it’s best to read the specific task.

As a side note, it’s helpful to be more specific than the entire continent
of Africa, which is a very, very large and diverse place. If you can note
individual problematic countries, as Frederic does, it helps us to identify
sources of error or verify there was a legitimate humanitarian or
community-building reason behind any fall in quality.

On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 4:16 PM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 02/07/18 18:52, Frederik Ramm wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > On 02.07.2018 10:24, Jean-Marc Liotier wrote:
> >> churning out buildings like demented stonemasons trying to reach their
> weekly quota
> >> of gamified task-managing !
> > I recently stumbled upon
> >
> > https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/-6.8958/39.1623
> >
> > (Tanzania) and had a similar thought. The buildings there are at least
> > square and largely match aerial imagery, but this, too, looked like
> > supercharged one-trick-pony image tracing combined with very little on
> > the ground knowledge (e.g. quite a few roads and tracks clearly visible
> > on the imagery are not traced, and from someone local you'd expect the
> > occasional POI or label).
> >
> > Someone must have buildings very high on their priority list (don't even
> > know if HOT are involved but it certainly doesn't look like local
> mapping).
> >
> > It will be interesting to learn why buildings are so important. Or are
> > they just the lowest-hanging image tracing fruit, or just easier to
> count?
> >
> I have been mapping a few buildings lately - mainly to add addresses to.
> Past mappers have placed a few POI ... but they tend not to be too precise
> - e.g. between buildings or on the footpath.
> Once the building outline is there then you see the discrepancy. And any
> further additions of POI can be guided by the building outlines.
>
> I hope 'my' buildings are a little better that what is described above,
> some of that depends on the imagery,
> some in the pride of workmanship and some on the fatigue of the mapper.
> Certainly any HOT manager who rewards the number of things done should be
> alert to the quality reduction that such motivation brings.
>
> One of the good things about adding addresses .. you notice things like
> the road name is wrong.
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Misrepresentation of OSM by HOT?

[Robert Banick]

HOT will probably never find a formulation of our mission and tools that
satisfies the entire OSM community. However, that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t
try.

My two cents: How about a simple blurb describing and linking to OSM on the
About page? And perhaps the title banner could be rephrased to
“Collaborative Mapping of OpenStreetMap”?

On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 3:28 PM Blake Girardot HOT/OSM <
blake.girar...@hotosm.org> wrote:

> Hi Christoph,
>
> We can not win if we do or if we do not :)
>
> It clearly says the HOT Tasking Manager, which it is. We were asked to
> change it from OSM Tasking Manager because people felt that was
> misrepresenting, it was not the OSM Tasking manager, it was HOT's
> Tasking Manager, so I changed that in TM v2.
>
> And the major emphasis on "OpenStreetMap Collaborative Mapping" is
> exactly because people also said we did not put OpenStreetMap
> prominently enough. Now it is the biggest thing on the page and that
> is not right either :)
>
> It doesn't say "HOT Collaborative Mapping" because people are not HOT
> mapping, they are OSM mapping.
>
> But, I think we are happy to change that title on that page to
> something else if the community feels it is somehow misrepresenting
> something.
>
> Respectfully,
> blake
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 5:08 AM, Christoph Hormann  wrote:
> >
> > I recently turned up on the HOT tasking manager page
> > (http://tasks.hotosm.org/) and found the page is now presenting itself
> > tautologically as an "OpenStreetMap Collaborative Mapping" portal with
> > no indication except for the small logo on top that this is a separate
> > project with no official character.  At the same time it seems (at a
> > first glance) there is not a single link on the site to OpenStreetMap.
> > To the visitor unfamiliar with OSM this is quite likely to generate the
> > impression that this is OSM and that contributing to "OpenStreetMap
> > Collaborative Mapping" always happens via HOT tasks.
> >
> > In my eyes this is a fairly clear misrepresentation of OpenStreetMap not
> > covered by the trademark policy we now have.
> >
> > --
> > Christoph Hormann
> > http://www.imagico.de/
> >
> > ___
> > talk mailing list
> > talk@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
>
>
> --
> 
> Blake Girardot
> Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] The real face of MAPS.ME edits and notes - a short analysis

[Robert Banick]

Thanks for the update Ilya, it’s very interesting. Despite the occasional
hiccups I think MAPS.ME is great and I’m excited to hear you all are
working hard to make it even better. Best of luck and do keep sharing here.

On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 8:42 PM Ilya Zverev  wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> Thanks Michał for your analysis of maps.me edits, and thanks Roland for
> explaining the value of local knowledge. I don't agree with everything on
> the list of possible improvements suggested by Michał. For example, I
> consider name:xx equally, if not more, important to name tags, since not
> always you can detect a local language. But the most items are definitely
> valid.
>
> We at maps.me are aware of some issues with our editor, though we have
> been busy with other tasks lately. Among many other things, we have
> improved time prediction and voice navigation for the routing, and added
> intermediate points support for the next release. As per our roadmap we are
> starting work on incremental map updates, which would give our users and
> map editors the freshest map possible. We also have experimented with
> public transport routing: check out the results (definitely not ready for
> production) in https://youtu.be/GSFY-yxEkj0 .
>
> Alas, some parts of the editor are deteriorating because lack of support
> from the OSM community. Like, mappers can no longer sign in to
> OpenStreetMap using a Google account, since Google stopped supporting
> webview-based OAuth. The pull request for fixing this on the OSM website is
> still not merged, waiting there for five month, despite us answering every
> question and following every reasonable suggestion. We'd like to make the
> website more friendly to mobile users, starting with the authentication.
>
> The good news is, we are compiling the list of issues with the editor,
> combining Michał's suggestions with reports from the Russian forum and from
> b...@maps.me. Then we will discuss the list internally and turn in into a
> roadmap for the maps.me editor. In a month or so we plan to share it with
> the community, and you will see positive changes later this year. You
> should know we care about the map as much as you do, since only because of
> the open data we were able to create our application. If the data gets
> worse, our app gets worse, so we are committed to improving the map, and
> the quality of the map.
>
> Ilya
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Re: [OSM-talk] "NRCS basic OSM training" - low quality changesets in Nepal

[Robert Banick]

Hi all,

I live in Nepal, contribute to the local map and consider myself part of
the local OSM community. I would certainly be exasperated if my edits got
mangled by a training but recognize it’s all part of the learning curve. I
would trade a couple months of cleaning bad edits for a significantly
larger community here any day.

The NRCS GIS staff and KLL have a personal relationship and I expect these
matters will be discussed over the phone and/or in person, as is the
cultural preference here. Lack of action on the mailing list isn’t really
reflective of the attention being paid. Keep in mind that this is the
mailing list where MAPS.ME recently got called “#!*@.ME”. It’s not exactly
a welcoming space if you’re shy, nervous about your edits or lack
confidence in your English. This is not news of course but it always seems
to need repeating.

Finally, addr:tole refers to a locally recognized definition of place and
is a genuinely useful tag. These are historic neighborhood units that have
been eclipsed by modern political boundaries but still have important
religious and cultural functions.

Cheers,
Robert

On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 12:43 PM Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On 21.06.2017 23:48, Dan Joseph wrote:
> > NRCS stands for Nepal Red Cross Society, so the people behind the edits
> > are part of the local community.
>
> The word "community" is used in a lot of different ways in OSM. When I
> speak of "the local community" I ususally mean "the OSM mappers who live
> there", not "anyone who lives there".
>
> I'd like to echo Pieree's question - are the NRCS in touch with KLL
> because that would certainly help avoid a lot of beginner problems *and*
> not require English.
>
> > I would also guess that changeset comments were not
> > part of the training.
>
> Then the training is seriously lacking.
>
> > Errant keys are relatively straight-forward to
> > find and fix in JOSM. If the tag value is legitimate local knowledge
> > then a little bit of cleanup work is worth it.
>
> I don't know about the localisation status of the software. Many of the
> problems mentioned here would trigger warnings with standard editing
> software. Is it possible that these warnings are not translated and
> mappers are taught to just hit "continue" whenver there's a popup they
> don't understand?
>
> > Someone at the Nepal RC
> > who does some GIS work is aware of the data quality issues and working
> > to fix it.
>
> With that, I hope they mean they will fix the training and not fix the
> problems. They are not doing well by the local volunteers if they
> provide them with training that results in most of their edits having to
> be corrected by someone else (worst case, someone else without knowledge
> of land or language).
>
> It would be interesting to know what the aims of this programme are, and
> how many volunteers are recruited/trained to do exactly what.
>
> > Changeset comments such as "It's likely we
> > have to fully delete it because it would take days to clean everything
> > up by hand." when talking about local knowledge added by locals seems
> > against the spirit of OSM.
>
> Well it depends on just how much pre-existing data was broken. If things
> are newly added and the tagging is bad, then the worst that will happen
> is that the data rots away unused. If however existing data - that was
> presumably added by locals with local knowledge - is broken then it is
> possible that the net worth of the contribution is below zero.
>
> This is of course something that an institution training volunteers
> should not allow to happen because not only will it was the the time of
> the volunteers in question *and* others in OSM who repair the damage, it
> would also throw a bad light on the organisation itself and the way they
> plan and staff their activities.
>
> I am concerned about a changeset comment quoted by Andy in another
> message: "Stop destroying detailed map using generalization tools. In
> developing countries like Nepal eactly map can save human life." --
> while this is certainly impolite, if this is talking about the NRCS
> edits discussed here, it points to existing data being reduced in value
> by the new contributions. People don't usually say something like that
> if someone just uses a wrong tag or accidentally moves a house.
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> --
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM for government

[Robert Banick]

Really interesting conversation and tips here. My team 
at the GFDRR  has been tiptoeing in this direction
for a while. To date we’ve mostly been involved in one-off data creation
projects that demonstrate OSM’s value the governments we work with and get
them to produce non-sensitive data in the open they would otherwise make
privately (then probably misplace within a few years, leaving only final
report PDFs in their wake). Projects like this

and this .

We’re not blind to the fact that this is imperfect and less than
sustainable. So we’re looking at the examples you all list for good (and
bad) ways to institutionalize this work and make it standard practice
instead of one-time.

We’re also interested in funding the creation of better software tools to
make it easier for governments to do these tasks, particularly for
government IT staff that may not be on the cutting edge of technology
practices even within their own country, let alone internationally. More
GUI based ways to visualize changes and perform quality control, or see
multiple departments’ inputs on a single set of nodes in OSM.

Are there any specialized tools you all have seen used for these purposes?
Can we capture some of the scripts / etc. published by model cities/govs on
the wiki page? Thanks for setting that up joost!

Robert

On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 1:51 PM joost schouppe 
wrote:

As suggested by Mikel, I created a wiki catalog page about the subject:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenStreetMapforGovernment

It's just an outline, I'll try to add some stuff from this conversation
over the following days; but you're welcome to do that first yourself :)

I'm not quite sure how HOT related mapping fits in that page. I would guess
there's a HOT catalog somewhere out there, where some cases will probably
involve quite some government support. I'd rather link to that than
duplicate the list.
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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Robert Banick]

HOT eases people into OSM and gives them an easily understood purpose to begin 
mapping. Some HOTties go on to be power OSMers outside of HOT; some never step 
away from HOT. Both reflect individual preferences, not any isolating tendency 
by HOT. HOT tries to build communities and encourages interaction with OSM 
within the framework of its mission. There’s a lot to improve (with limited 
resources) but we fully intend to build up OSM through our work. Mikel’s use of 
this discussion to launch a helpful github issue ticket is a good example.




As for how the humanitarian sector understands OSM: until HOT came along the 
humanitarian sector didn’t understand OSM, period. The conversations I had in 
2010-2011 and the conversations I have now with fellow humanitarians about OSM 
are light years apart in terms of technical depth and understanding of OSM’s 
workings.








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On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 10:52 PM, Simon Poole  wrote:

> Am 19.11.2015 um 15:53 schrieb Blake Girardot:
>> 
>> It is a ridiculous statement on its face; obviously HOT does not
>> succeed if OSM does not succeed.
> I think we fully agree and if you recheck you will see that I said
> essentially the same.
>>
>> As to the original issue Ramm raised:
>>
>> Most HOT folks who commented agreed the example changeset comments,
>> while useful, could benefit from improvement (as could the vast
>> majority changeset comments in OSM). Mikel has already opened an issue
>> in github to improve them and the issue has already been brought to
>> the people who manage HOT OSM Tasking Manager projects, how is that
>> not working with and being responsive to the larger OSM community?
> Again if you go back you will see that I couldn't quite believe that a
> shism was really being declared because it doesn't make any sense.
> On the other hand you can't deny that HOT is in some ways self defeating
> since it isolates lots of people from the whole of OSM and the nitty
> grity parts. Intentionally naturally, but it doesn't necessarily
> actually help the humanitarian sectors understanding of what OSM is and
> how it works.
>>
>> I think HOT's history demonstrates an eagerness (and outright need) to
>> work with the OSM community at every opportunity (not mistake free of
>> course).  But I can also personally point to at least 1 example where
>> HOT has reached out to OSMF and the License WG and literally been
>> ignored after repeated attempts to even discuss an issue.
> I would be interested in a reference to that. We get a large number of
> enquiries, ~ 200 this year to date, and occasionally stuff gets pushed
> back, particularly if there is no good answer (naturally you would get
> an answer pointing that out).
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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Robert Banick]

Hi all,




Surely this is a case of “more is better”. As Kate suggests, the hashtags are a 
great tool for downstream analytics we can use to learn about and improve our 
work.




At mapathons I always instruct newcomers to add their personal comments to the 
pre-loaded tags from the tasking manager. If mapathon holders don’t instruct 
mappers to add their own comments then I would think that calls for the same 
patient back channel communications we give to mappers who tag features wrong 
or other well-meaning mistakes.




Robert








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On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 9:44 AM, Kate Chapman  wrote:

> Hi Frederik,
> I fail to see how machine readable hashtags are "not useful". They allow
> statistical analysis which can be used to inform future recruitment and
> other activities. Often we make assumptions about OSM contributors not
> backed by statistics this allows improvement in one corner of the OSM
> community. Perhaps some human readable text would also be useful, but I
> don't think of adding hashtag like comments as an issue.
> -Kate
> On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 4:11 PM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>>I would like to draw everyone's attention to a long-standing
>> community recommendation:
>>
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Good_changeset_comments
>>
>> It explains why you should use sensible changeset comments that describe
>> what you (think you) have been doing.
>>
>> I don't know exactly who encourages this, but I am seeing lots of
>> changesets with comments like this:
>>
>> #MissingMaps #hotosm-project-12345 Lubumbashi, Congo (DRC) #100mapathons
>> #OSMGeoWeek
>>
>> This is *not* useful. First of all, we're not Twitter; we don't evaluate
>> these hashtags. I don't know if there are some downstream services that
>> do, but if so, please switch to using a secondary tag (remember,
>> changesets, like other OSM objects, can have any number of tags).
>>
>> As a reader of the edit history of a place, I am interested in someone
>> writing that they have traced buildings or drawn roads or done whatever.
>> I'm not so much interested in (what I perceive as) vanity hashtags, they
>> don't help me understand what the person did.
>>
>> I mean look at this:
>>
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/history#map=6/8.418/43.923
>>
>> It's really a caricature of what changeset comments were meant to be.
>>
>> Can it be fixed somehow, or have we permanently moved from changeset
>> comments being aimed at your fellow human mappers to changeset comments
>> being auto-generated for consumption by some software that makes sense
>> of them?
>>
>> Bye
>> Frederik
>>
>> --
>> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Help with JOSM and OS X Yosemite

[Robert Banick]

Hi Susan,

In a Mac OS X you can search for "Console" under Spotlight (the spyglass on
the top right of your computer, reachable by CMD-Space). Open the program
that shows up and you'll have the log for all your system messages. Great
for looking into mysterious errors.

Best,
Robert

On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 3:21 PM, Suzan Reed  wrote:

> Marc, I thought I replied saying I didn’t know where the OS X console for
> logging was. I will look at it, but don’t know where to find it.
>
> Clifford, I am running Java 8 build 51.
> JOSM app, version 8491
> New Macbook Pro OS X Yosemite
> No proxy servers in any browser or in the system preferences
>
> I can test access the OpenStreetMap API in a browser and see xml:
> http://api.openstreetmap.org/api/0.6/way/93710880
> And here with a secure connection:
> https://api.openstreetmap.org/api/0.6/way/93710880
>
> In JOSM I have
> * chosen the JOSM menu (top left)
> * chosen 'preferences...'
> * on the icons running down the side, I’ve chosen the second one which
> looks like a globe
> * checked 'Use the default OSM server URL (
> https://api.openstreetmap.org/api)
> and I’ve entered my OSM username and password.
>
> No joy. Would love to run JOSM on this computer.
>
> Suzan
>
>
> On Jul 30, 2015, at 7:35 AM, Marc Gemis  wrote:
>
> Clifford, I probably only replied to Suzan the first time. She got back to
> me with some details.
>
> Java 8 & JOSM version seem OK. It has something to do with the network
> connection, although browser can connect and no proxy involved.
> The error in the dialog says java.net.ConnectException: No Route to host
>
> And a text asking to check the proxy.
>
> I had no clue what else could be checked. I asked her to look in the OSX
> console for logging. She did not reply on that yet.
>
>
> regards
>
> m
>
> On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 4:18 PM, Clifford Snow 
> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 10:21 PM, Suzan Reed  wrote:
> I’ve tried all the usual fixes in the preferences, but can not get JOSM to
> connect with the server on my new Mac running OS X Yosemite. It may be a
> system thing. Anyone out there that can help?
>
> Suzan,
> It doesn't look like anyone has tried to help. I run JOSM on an Mac
> upgraded to Yosemite. This was a fresh install of Yosemite. An upgrade to
> Yosemite may behave differently.
>
> Have you verified that java is installed? Use
> https://www.java.com/en/download/installed.jsp - A browser that supports
> flash is needed for this test. I used Safari to verify that the latest
> version was installed.
>
> See if you can run JOSM from the command line,
> cd /Applications/JOSM.app/Contents/Java
> ls *.jar #use the output for the next command. Replace josm-latest.jar
> with your .jar file
> java -jar josm-latest.jar
>
> If running from the command line works, but not from Finder, I would
> remove JOSM.app and reinstall.
>
> Let me know if you need additional assistance.
>
> Clifford
>
>
>
>
> --
> @osm_seattle
> osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping

[Robert Banick]

Hi All,




First off, let me say that I’ve really enjoyed this discussion. I admire the 
mixture of passion and overall civility on a really difficult topic. I’ve 
honestly learned some things reading all your replies.




I have a lot of thoughts about remote mapping vs. on the ground mapping but 
don’t have good words to pull them all together, so I won’t try here. I 
actually wanted to talk about Missing Maps, since I helped set it up at the Red 
Cross and think Erica’s article misunderstands it a little.




Missing Maps is meant to be a union of remote mapping and local mapping. 50/50, 
even split, each with a role to play in the overall “project”. We put a lot of 
effort into involving, supporting and where necessary creating local mapping 
communities in the developing world to do the on-the-ground side of Missing 
Maps work. If you want to know more about that check out the video from 
Drishtie Patel’s presentation at State of the Map US. She tells that story 
better than I can here. 




Remote mapping was easier to set up in the early phases of the project and much 
more accessible to the Western “core” of OSM contributors, not to mention 
sympathetic journalists, who wanted to check out and perhaps contribute to the 
project. As a result the remote component has gotten an outsized amount of 
attention within the greater OSM community even though it’s only half of the 
story. 




Regarding the charges of using the map for disaster and development purposes 
instead of being driven by “purer” entirely local mapping objectives: guilty as 
charged (sort of). The Red Cross ([1]) has some long standing mechanisms to 
make sure the work we do responds to genuine community concerns ([2]). We try 
hard to be sincere about that and incorporate our newer, relatively flashier 
OSM work into those longstanding mechanisms. We also make sure that wherever 
possible, the Red Cross volunteers working on Missing Maps projects come from 
the communities we’re mapping themselves. But it’s true that we focus on 
humanitarian and development objectives, because well, we’re the Red Cross and 
that’s our mission.




Missing Maps was set up by genuine OSM lovers who wanted to link their passion 
for humanitarian work with their passion for OSM. We’ve pushed the Red Cross 
really hard not just to use OSM data but contribute back and be responsible 
members of the OSM community. But we’re never going to escape our humanitarian 
/ development focus because of who we are and we have to accept that.




Transitioning this a little, let me say this about local vs. remote mapping:




I strongly feel that if we want to encourage local mapping in the “purest” 
sense then we need to do more than wring our hands about remote mapping and 
imports, put local communities on pedestals and hope for the best. I think the 
OpenStreetMap Foundation needs to step up, organize itself and find ways to 
make it easier to be an OSM enthusiast throughout the world. That means helping 
to fund State of the Maps and scholarships to attend, holding workshops, 
building (much) easier to use tools, and scaling its infrastructure to handle 
the next 10 million contributors. People should join OSM because they want to 
and are passionate about it, not because some Westerners came and told them 
it’s important — but we can do a lot more to make those passions possible. The 
“deliberately weak” OSMF model does no favors to the growth of local OSM 
communities, especially in parts of the world where organizing communities is a 
pretty tough task to begin with.





HOT does a lot of these things but it was set up with humanitarian objectives 
and has to be true to those. HOT shouldn’t be the “OSM outside of the West” 
institution and it’s bad for HOT and OSM both to treat it as such.




Thanks for all the brilliant thoughts so far. Looking forward to the brilliant 
replies.




- Robert






[1] Doctors Without Borders / Medicines Sans Frontieres works significantly 
differently and I won’t pretend to speak for them.




[2] Among others: http://www.ifrc.org/vca





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On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 7:34 PM, moltonel 3x Combo 
wrote:

> On 13 June 2015 15:37:22 GMT+01:00, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
>>http://groundtruth.in/2015/06/05/osm-mapping-power-to-the-people/
> I really liked that article, but to me it doesn't argues *against
> remote mapping* as much as it argues *for local mapping*.
> I think everybody already agreed that local trumps remote, and the
> article is enlightening about how important that is and even how to
> define "local". But that doesn't mean that remote mapping is a bad
> thing. To me, remote and local are two necessary tools in the box. OSM
> wouldn't be hafl as good as it is today without that combinaison of
> multiple mapper profiles who contribute to a given area.
> If remote mapping slows local community growth (I have my doubts), or
> if a New Yorker newbie makes a mess of african highway classification,
> the w

Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?

[Robert Banick]

+1 to Dave. OSM is universal, full stop.

On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 4:27 PM, Dave Corley  wrote:

> I am honestly stunned this thread has gone on for as long as it has.
>
> In regards to
>
>
>>
>> On 05/28/2015 09:19 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:
>> > What I would not support in OSM, and like to outsource to Wikidata or
>> > other, is if speakers of these 20 languages were to start assigning name
>> > tags in their language to thousands of places in, say, the UK.
>>
>> *Especially* if their reasoning was that this makes it nicer for them to
>> run a tank through these places in their own-language war simulation
>> with their buddies.
>>
>>
> On the first point, why not? There are maps of the world in English,
> French, German etc etc. I see no logical reason to object to "certain"
> languages being used in the name tag. That is the whole point of the
> flexibility of that tag. The scale of usage is null and void. Either its
> acceptable everywhere or its acceptable nowhere. Anything in between is
> entirely subjective and completely unfair.
>
> On the second point, since when do we care about the motivation about why
> certain data gets added. If someone wants to add 3d tagging to utilise in a
> 3d map they are creating, do we nitpick about that? If Scout adds speed
> limits to make their app more effective, do we complain?
>
> Lastly, and I think this is important point. To quote the wiki header
> ". the project that creates and distributes free geographic data for
> the world." Either this is a database of worldwide geodata or its not.
> There's no half-way in that statement. Either all cultures, languages,
> countries, people and the variety these elements bring in terms of tagging,
> is accepted on a universal basis or its not.
>
> If its not, then that's an entirely different conversation.
>
> Dave
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] BBC License Violation?

[Robert Banick]

Agreed with all the above. No sense coming across very small in a disaster, but 
it is an opportunity to tell our "story". Whether the BBC bites or not is 
really out of our control. 



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On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 11:14 PM, Pierre Béland  wrote:

> Harry could you assure that they interview KLL ? I agree with Simon. This 
> would be the more beneficial for OSM.
> regard  
> Pierre 
>   De : Simon Poole 
>  À : talk@openstreetmap.org 
>  Envoyé le : Vendredi 1 mai 2015 18h14
>  Objet : Re: [OSM-talk] BBC License Violation?
>
> Correct link worked now.
> I'm not aware that anybody in the LWG has a BBC contact, but Harry Wood
> from the CWG (and HOT) should have one. 
> It is one of the cases were more benefit is likely to be had by getting
> the BBC to do a piece on OpenStreetMap, KLL and the volunteers that are
> supporting the aid efforts by remote mapping. Getting attribution in an
> article that will be somewhere in the archives tomorrow doesn't really
> help anybody, and will potentially just end in disagreement because the
> provience of the data is likely difficult to actually trace, better
> strategy to have BBC owe us one.
> Simon
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Re: [OSM-talk] BBC License Violation?

[Robert Banick]

This: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-32551499




Map at bottom



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On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 9:50 PM, Pierre Béland  wrote:

> same problem with me.
>   
> Pierre 
>   De : Simon Poole 
>  À : talk@openstreetmap.org 
>  Envoyé le : Vendredi 1 mai 2015 17h44
>  Objet : Re: [OSM-talk] BBC License Violation?
>
> Robert, the link doesn't seem to work (not just for me)
> Simon
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Re: [OSM-talk] BBC License Violation?

[Robert Banick]

Hi all,



Sorry my internet cut out midway through writing the email and I got turned 
around finding the link. Im on my phone now and it's a bit clumsy to get the 
link, but Ii's the front page article on Nepal on the BBC World website. 







Robert



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On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 9:46 PM, SomeoneElse 
wrote:

> On 01/05/2015 22:18, Robert Banick wrote:
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I was reading the below linked article on the BBC today and came 
>> across the map. It looks like they’re using OSM-derived internally 
>> displaced person (IDP) camp data without attribution.
>>
>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/20039682
>>
> Looks like that story's moved.  I just see "Contact BBC News online - 
> help, feedback and complaints".  Can you link to the current URL?
> Cheers,
> Andy
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[OSM-talk] BBC License Violation?

[Robert Banick]

Hi All,


I was reading the below linked article on the BBC today and came across the 
map. It looks like they’re using OSM-derived internally displaced person (IDP) 
camp data without attribution.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/20039682



Based on what I’m reading in the relevant coordination channels it appears that 
HOT / Kathmandu Living Labs are one of the main sources for IDP damage. This is 
confirmed by the obvious square shape of the southern camps shown. The shape 
appears to align with bounds of HOT task #1008. 
http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/1008


Likely this is an honest mistake from a BBC reporter who sourced the derived 
data from the Nepali government. Nonetheless it’s a violation and should be 
fixed.


Is there anyone with BBC contacts who could try to have this sorted? I’ve 
written them through the generic Contact button but personal contacts are 
always quicker.


Best,
Robert

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Re: [OSM-talk] Use of OSM by municipalities

[Robert Banick]

I know that some municipalities in the Philippines are using OSM data as a 
foundational dataset. You should check with Jay-Ar (osm: jay-ar) for more info, 
he was telling me about it.


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On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 8:54 AM, Severin Menard 
wrote:

> Hi,
> Is there somewhere a collection of use cases of OpenStreetMap data and
> services by municipalities?
> Sincerely,
> Severin___
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Re: [OSM-talk] "How We Map"

[Robert Banick]

Agreed with all of the above, this is a great, concise, and friendly piece. I 
would love for this to be accessible not just for new signees but available for 
old timers looking for a nice refresher


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On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 5:58 PM, Ed Loach  wrote:

> On 11 Feb 2015 17:53, "Michael Kugelmann"  wrote:
>>
>> Am 11.02.2015 um 17:51 schrieb Mikel Maron:
>>>
>>> Already a great piece.
>>
>> +1
>>
>>
>> As a suggestion for improvement:
>> I'd love to have a clear statment in the way that somebody new in the
> project should at least inform himself about practice/methods and tagging
> conventions used since years before inventing the wheel again.
> Perhaps that could be part of a Getting Started page or a How To Map page
> rather than the How We Map page which I think looks pretty good.
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Re: [OSM-talk] NY Times & OSM Credits

[Robert Banick]

Hi all,

I'm forwarding this to contacts at the NYT graphics desk. I know the NYT
team are big fans of OSM and even attended this year's SOTM-US,  so it's
probably an honest mistake. I'll ask them to respond directly.

Cheers,
Robert
On Sep 15, 2014 10:49 PM, "Cristian Consonni" 
wrote:

> 2014-09-15 18:51 GMT+02:00 hyan...@gmail.com :
> > Hi OSM mappers!
> >
> > I'm very happy that several institutions use OSM map to show my city,
> > http://bit.ly/cartagena_col Now a just realize that the map used by NY
> Times
> > in this article
> >
> >
> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/14/travel/things-to-do-in-36-hours-in-cartagena-colombia.html?module=Search&mabReward=relbias%3Ar%2C{%222%22%3A%22RI%3A15%22}&_r=0
> >
> > is created with OSM data.  As author I can recognize vectors and polygons
> > that only exist in OSM for my city.  NY Times used in other ocassions OSM
> > maps ¿they miss this time to put correct credits? ¿should we notify the
> > issue?
>
> Yes, you should. First, look for an e-mail contact address and ask
> politely. I think that more experienced users on this list can also be
> of help.
>
> Cristian
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Appeal for a JOSM fieldpapers plugin

[Robert Banick]

Indeed, I can't stress enough how useful this would be


On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 9:37 AM, Douglas Musaazi
wrote:

> +1
>
> A week ago, the same issue was raised on a mapping event where the field
> papers were used, so i totally agree with the appeal for a JOSM
> fieldpapers plugin
>
> http://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/8738
>
> Yours Truly
>
> Douglas Ssebaggala Musaazi
> Mobile:   +256-772-422524
>
>
> http://www.mountbatten.net/
> http://www.mappingday.com/
> http://www.twitter.com/mapuganda
>
> Keep In Touch
>   --
>  *From:* "talk-requ...@openstreetmap.org" 
> *To:* talk@openstreetmap.org
> *Sent:* Monday, May 27, 2013 3:00 PM
> *Subject:* talk Digest, Vol 105, Issue 55
>
> Send talk mailing list submissions to
> talk@openstreetmap.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> talk-requ...@openstreetmap.org
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> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of talk digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Appeal for a JOSM fieldpapers plugin to replacewalkingpapers
>   (maning sambale)
>   2. Re: Appeal for a JOSM fieldpapers plugin to replace
>   walkingpapers (RB)
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 17:19:25 +0800
> From: maning sambale 
> To: osm-talk 
> Subject: [OSM-talk] Appeal for a JOSM fieldpapers plugin to replace
> walkingpapers
> Message-ID:
> 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Dear osm-talk,
>
> Posting this appeal to the general talk list. Hoping someone can catch
> this. ;)
> Back story: We use walkingpapers a lot for community mapping, it would
> be nice for a plugin that uses fieldpapers.
>
> Filed ticket: http://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/8738
> Modify the walkingpapers plugin to use fieldpapers instead
> Description
> Walkingpapers is currently unmaintained for over a year now.
> Requesting a modification or a new plugin that uses fieldpapers
> instead.
>
> Thanks!
>
> --
> cheers,
> maning
> --
> "Freedom is still the most radical idea of all" -N.Branden
> wiki: http://esambale.wikispaces.com/
> blog: http://epsg4253.wordpress.com/
> --
>
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 12:23:22 +0300
> From: RB 
> To: maning sambale 
> Cc: openstreetmap 
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Appeal for a JOSM fieldpapers plugin to
> replacewalkingpapers
> Message-ID:
> 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I support very much this idea. It would be very useful.
> Le 27 mai 2013 12:22, "maning sambale"  a
> ?crit :
>
> > Dear osm-talk,
> >
> > Posting this appeal to the general talk list. Hoping someone can catch
> > this. ;)
> > Back story: We use walkingpapers a lot for community mapping, it would
> > be nice for a plugin that uses fieldpapers.
> >
> > Filed ticket: http://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/8738
> > Modify the walkingpapers plugin to use fieldpapers instead
> > Description
> > Walkingpapers is currently unmaintained for over a year now.
> > Requesting a modification or a new plugin that uses fieldpapers
> > instead.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > --
> > cheers,
> > maning
> > --
> > "Freedom is still the most radical idea of all" -N.Branden
> > wiki: http://esambale.wikispaces.com/
> > blog: http://epsg4253.wordpress.com/
> > --
> >
> > ___
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> >
> -- next part --
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> End of talk Digest, Vol 105, Issue 55
> *
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Re: [OSM-talk] RFC updated: OSM Attribution Mark (was: contributor mark)

[Robert Banick]

Sorry to jump in only so briefly, but a small point struck me reading
this discussion:

"I don't accept that an image is a beneficial replacement for the
text.  When I say beneficial, I mean beneficial to OpenStreetMap.  "

As a cartographic project, isn't the whole point of OSM visual? It
seems a big contradictory to assert that a visual identifier for a
mapping project is a poor idea.

Otherwise, as I contributor I second Mikel about being proud to have
my work represented as suggested by Alex.

On 4/26/13, Mikel Maron  wrote:
> Hi
>
> I don't think there's much existing agreement on how we attribute, just
> standard practice. I as a contributor never "asserted" how things should be
> attributed.
>
> For instance, looking at the FAQ
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Legal_FAQ#3a._I_would_like_to_use_OpenStreetMap_maps._How_should_I_credit_you.3F
>
>
>> Our requested attribution is "© OpenStreetMap contributors".
>
>
> That says requested attribution. There's nothing required?
>
>> "Because OpenStreetMap is its contributors, you may omit the word
>> "contributors" if space is limited."
>
> Indeed.
>
> I think we're overvaluing text in the standard practice. No one reads the
> messy text at the bottom of maps, except for map developers. Something
> recognizable visually, without reading, is going to do a lot more for
> awareness of OpenStreetMap then some text that just gets ignored.
>
> For this contributor, I would be proud to have my work credited by "by OSM",
> or "with OSM". Copyright is there legally, on the copyright page. We are
> more than copyright, we are community. And the newly designed page is a
> great improvement, great welcome, to not only explain the legalities, but
> what OSM is about ... people who care about data.
>
> -Mikel
>
> * Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron
>
>
>>
>> From: Richard Weait 
>>To: Kathleen Danielson 
>>Cc: Talk 
>>Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 5:34 PM
>>Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] RFC updated: OSM Attribution Mark (was: contributor
>> mark)
>>
>>
>>
>>On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 12:13 PM, Kathleen Danielson
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Richard, can you explain a little more of why you think that the idea is
>>> bad for OSM?
>>
>>Removing "OpenStreetMap" from the attribution requirement is bad for
>> OpenStreetMap.  It is good for OpenStreetMap that people who benefit from
>> the use of OpenStreetMap be informed that it is OpenStreetMap from which
>> they are gaining a benefit.
>>
>>
>>Removing "Contributors" from the attribution requirement is bad for
>> OpenStreetMap.  Data contributors are the very core of the project.  They
>> create and improve the data from which we all benefit.  The "contributors"
>> portion of the attribution requirement was part of the discussion in the
>> license change process. Contributors asserted that a simple "copyright
>> OpenStreetMap" was not enough.  The OpenStreetMap data contributors
>> deserve recognition on produced works.
>>
>>The trade off that I am seeing here is reducing the
>> readable/indexable/searchable text
>>
>>"Reducing" ?  The image does not reduce the text the image eliminates
> the text.  Specifically, the image eliminates every text character
> entity.  The image eliminates "© OpenStreetMap Contributors" or 25 letters
> and copyright symbol.
>>
>>
>>If you stretch, really really far, and try to accept that an image of a
>> letter is as good as a letter, then the image eliminates "© pen treet ap
>> Contributors".  In that tortured version of reality, the image eliminates
>> 22 letters of 25 and the only explicit copyright symbol.  In exchange, the
>> letters "by" are added, which suggest, at best, something less than
>> copyright.
>>
>>
>>in exchange for the beginnings of a visual identifier,
>>
>>
>>By visual identifier, you mean image, right?  :-)
>>
>>
>>I don't accept that an image is a beneficial replacement for the text.
>> When I say beneficial, I mean beneficial to OpenStreetMap.
>>
>>
>>and a direct link to a strategic copyright page.
>>>
>>There is already a copyright page.  The link to the copyright page is
>> already a requirement.
>>
>>In summary, the idea of a visual mark or image to replace the required
>> attribution statement is harmful to OpenStreetMap.
>>
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