Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Tagging Live indoor music venues
2013/2/25 Peter Wendorff wendo...@uni-paderborn.de: Some stadiums nowadays are built with multiple usages in mind, e.g. the arena Auf Schalke of the German soccer club Schalke 04. Mainly a soccer stadium there have been events like Sensation White (Electro and House music), concerts (Herbert Grönemeyer, Metallica, Slayer, Pur, Bruce Springsteen, U2, AC/DC, Bon Jovi, Robbie Williams), operas (Aida, Carmen, Turandot) Fine, but it remains a soccer stadium (or maybe multipurpose stadium/hall), the fact that there were some concerts doesn't make this a concert hall. It is quite common for big rock concerts to be in soccer stadiums. e.g. by using a very generic term (like amenity=event_location) and several sub tags (like: concert_events=yes, sport_events=regularly, theatre=yes, opera=no, parties=no, conferences=yes) or something like that. -1, far too generic, it would be a huge step back. There is no point in having endlessly structures tagging like amenity=poi, poi:type:cultural=20%, poi:type:sports=80%, opera=rarely_but_only_the_popular_ones, parties=if_you_pay_enough_you_can_rent_almost_any_place, ... if it is a soccer stadium which already has its tagging. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Tagging Live indoor music venues
Am 26.02.2013 13:17, schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer: 2013/2/25 Peter Wendorff wendo...@uni-paderborn.de: Some stadiums nowadays are built with multiple usages in mind, e.g. the arena Auf Schalke of the German soccer club Schalke 04. Mainly a soccer stadium there have been events like Sensation White (Electro and House music), concerts (Herbert Grönemeyer, Metallica, Slayer, Pur, Bruce Springsteen, U2, AC/DC, Bon Jovi, Robbie Williams), operas (Aida, Carmen, Turandot) Fine, but it remains a soccer stadium (or maybe multipurpose stadium/hall), the fact that there were some concerts doesn't make this a concert hall. It is quite common for big rock concerts to be in soccer stadiums. But where's the border? In the following examples let all these facilities serve food and drinks. - an event location that has daily concerts and opens only for these events. - an event location that has daily concerts, but is open two hours before already and stays open for the rest of the night until everyone is gone. - an event location that has daily concerts in the evening but is open for lunch guests and the like around - a restaurant where occasionally life music is played by bands and so on (also known as concerts) - a restaurant where once in a year life music is played - a restaurant where all music comes from CD or mp3 - a restaurant that's entirely silent You may add arbitrary many steps in between - where's the point to switch from one to another, as the proposed scheme was to put both under amenity and therefore to conflict, you have to decide for one. I would say, food drinks and music are (at least) two different things that should be kept different and should not conflict if possible. e.g. by using a very generic term (like amenity=event_location) and several sub tags (like: concert_events=yes, sport_events=regularly, theatre=yes, opera=no, parties=no, conferences=yes) or something like that. -1, far too generic, it would be a huge step back. There is no point in having endlessly structures tagging like amenity=poi, poi:type:cultural=20%, poi:type:sports=80%, opera=rarely_but_only_the_popular_ones, parties=if_you_pay_enough_you_can_rent_almost_any_place, ... if it is a soccer stadium which already has its tagging. Agreed for the super-tag, it's not necessary. But nevertheless the very big amenity bunch often is a problem. To break it down one level, we could use top level tags for - gastronomy (pub or bar serving drinks, restaurant, club as serving drinks, cafe, ice cafe), - music (club as offering [live|dj|...] music floors), concert hall, ... - events (trade fairs, conferences, concerts, circus, comedy, theatre, ...) but 1) that's not perfect either 2) it does not solve the problem but just breaks it down to the next level. regards Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Tagging Live indoor music venues
2013/2/26 Peter Wendorff wendo...@uni-paderborn.de: But where's the border? we won't be able to find this out in a general and universal way, it is up to the local mapper with his knowledge to decide this on an individual basis. What we can do as a community is to establish a reasonable system with proposals how to tag certain types of things, and what are the categories the single mapper will probably choose from. In the following examples let all these facilities serve food and drinks. - an event location that has daily concerts and opens only for these events. a church? ;-) - an event location that has daily concerts, but is open two hours before already and stays open for the rest of the night until everyone is gone. a subway station? ;-) Sorry for bringing these up, but you simply can't rely on this few information, you will need a concrete case to decide (and will maybe not choose based on the criteria you are trying to bring in but on others). You may add arbitrary many steps in between - where's the point to switch from one to another, as the proposed scheme was to put both under amenity and therefore to conflict, you have to decide for one. all the restaurants will be restaurants in my tagging world, with maybe an additional attribute like live_music, surely they won't be concert halls. I would say, food drinks and music are (at least) two different things that should be kept different and should not conflict if possible. fine. I could agree on this, but it's probably not necessary: If it's a restaurant, it won't be a concert hall at the same time, if it's a music venue, the restaurant will be either a (smaller) part of it (taggable inside the venue boundary) or it will be a special kind of restaurant (i.e. the music is an attribute and tagged as such on a restaurant). Btw.: It is not so common to have concerts in restaurants time anyway, usually having concerts is more a thing of bars, pubs and nightclubs (which also offer food, but which are not restaurants). The kind of music you usually have in a restaurant (even if it's live) is more background music (IMHO). Agreed for the super-tag, it's not necessary. But nevertheless the very big amenity bunch often is a problem. it is indeed a problem when there are several orthogonal values for the same key, agreed. I'd also prefer to have more descriptive keys like eating (or food), drinking, accommodation and have proposed a key culture some years ago (with not the greatest reception but someone amended it): http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/culture To break it down one level, we could use top level tags for - gastronomy (pub or bar serving drinks, restaurant, club as serving drinks, cafe, ice cafe), +1, but a little bit late ;-) - music (club as offering [live|dj|...] music floors), concert hall, ... -1 - events (trade fairs, conferences, concerts, circus, comedy, theatre, ...) +1, thought we had these (i.e. we have tags for describing the areas where these take place, we _usually_ don't map events themselves as far as I know). but 1) that's not perfect either 2) it does not solve the problem but just breaks it down to the next level. +1, there is no such thing as a completely logical model of the world, and while for some it might make sense to group everything remotely related to music into this new music keys, for others it might not make sense to have a choral society under the same key as a nightclub or as a concert hall. If I was the OP I'd go with amenity=music_venue for those rock concert places and with amenity=concert_hall for concert halls, plus documented subtags cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Tagging Live indoor music venues
On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 6:59 PM, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: I would support amenity=music_venue, it describes this type of place. I looked at my local music_venue and it was tagged as leisure=music_venue Leisure seems to have slightly more (62) than amenity (56) at the moment. I don't really care which one is used but they're probably the same so we should choose one. http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/leisure=music_venue http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/amenity=music_venue Greets, Floris ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Tagging Live indoor music venues
I would prefer amenity as it fits in better with other entertainment venues such as cinemas, theatres, concert halls and pubs. Leisure is more for sports places and swimming pools in my mind. Phil (trigpoint) -- Sent from my Nokia N9 On 25/02/2013 9:58 Floris Looijesteijn wrote: On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 6:59 PM, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: I would support amenity=music_venue, it describes this type of place. I looked at my local music_venue and it was tagged as leisure=music_venue Leisure seems to have slightly more (62) than amenity (56) at the moment. I don't really care which one is used but they're probably the same so we should choose one. http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/leisure=music_venue http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/leisure=music_venue Greets, Floris ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Tagging Live indoor music venues
I don't think separating rock music venues and concert halls is a good idea. They are basically the same thing, a big room where music is played. Well, when you think of it there is a difference, concert halls usually have chairs. Is that a good separator of the two? Maybe we could invent a tag like music=rock;classical;popular that differentiates those halls, and tag them all with amenity=music_venue. Janko Mihelić ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Tagging Live indoor music venues
On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 10:13 PM, Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com wrote: I don't think separating rock music venues and concert halls is a good idea. They are basically the same thing, a big room where music is played. Agreed. There are too many tags as it is. Excessive distinctions causes a lot of pointless hair splitting arguments (should I tag this as a concert hall or a music venue?) OTOH, if amenity=concert_hall, amenity=music_venue and leisure=music_venue are all in pretty similar usage, we're pretty much free to pick one to support. I'd take amenity=music_venue, as the term is the broadest (and happily encompasses concert halls - the reverse isn't true). leisure=* seems wrong - those tags are generally about sports and recreation outdoors. Well, when you think of it there is a difference, concert halls usually have chairs. Is that a good separator of the two? Not at all - lots of other venues do too. You could argue that concert halls are designed for the performance of classical music, but even that will break down. It's not a distinction that needs to be made. Can you imagine a map that has different icons for concert halls vs music venues? Maybe we could invent a tag like music=rock;classical;popular that differentiates those halls, and tag them all with amenity=music_venue. Sounds ok...I think in practice there will be an awful lot of fuzzy sets. Rock music at classical venues and vice versa. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Tagging Live indoor music venues
2013/2/25 Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com: I don't think separating rock music venues and concert halls is a good idea. They are basically the same thing, a big room where music is played. I don't agree at all with this. They are very different features with the only thing in common that there is someone playing music and there is a space for an audience to listen to. We already have other features in OSM which also describe features that are included in this definition (e.g. bandstand). Of course there are different possibilities to structure the world into classes, but for me a concert hall merits a different base tag than a music venue for rock concerts. And of course there might also be places where they perform both kinds of concerts (but I guess that's the exception and not the standard). cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Tagging Live indoor music venues
2013/2/25 Floris Looijesteijn o...@floris.nu: On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 6:59 PM, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: I looked at my local music_venue and it was tagged as leisure=music_venue Leisure seems to have slightly more (62) than amenity (56) at the moment. which is both not really established ;-) I don't really care which one is used but they're probably the same so we should choose one. if they're the same I'd prefer amenity (as it's more neutral). Interestingly both variants are proposed on the same page since 2007: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Music_venue There is also this proposal for a venue that could have been of interest in this context, but is currently not used at all: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Musicclub cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Tagging Live indoor music venues
amenity=music_venue + music_venue=concert_hall/music_club/opera_house/? Now, how should restaurants that e.g. have live music every night (and host touring artists, too) be tagged? Should tags such as bar=yes or/and restaurant=yes be added where appropriate? Cheers, -Jaakko .. Who hasn't formed a solid opinion nor read all documentation on tagging multi-feature venues but who often adds bar/restaurant/atm/swimming_pool/etc=yes tag when they are available in a facility. Sent from my BlackBerry® device from Digicel -- Mobile: +509-37-26 91 54, Skype/GoogleTalk: jhelleranta -Original Message- From: Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 15:11:11 To: Floris Looijesteijno...@floris.nu Cc: OSM Talktalk@openstreetmap.org; talk...@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Tagging Live indoor music venues 2013/2/25 Floris Looijesteijn o...@floris.nu: On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 6:59 PM, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: I looked at my local music_venue and it was tagged as leisure=music_venue Leisure seems to have slightly more (62) than amenity (56) at the moment. which is both not really established ;-) I don't really care which one is used but they're probably the same so we should choose one. if they're the same I'd prefer amenity (as it's more neutral). Interestingly both variants are proposed on the same page since 2007: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Music_venue There is also this proposal for a venue that could have been of interest in this context, but is currently not used at all: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Musicclub cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Tagging Live indoor music venues
2013/2/25 Jaakko Helleranta.com jaa...@helleranta.com: amenity=music_venue + music_venue=concert_hall/music_club/opera_house/? operas are tagged as theatres amenity=theatre http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Aamenity%3Dtheatre which lists also the idea to add theatre:genre=opera (but the theatre:genre-tag is also not very common, currently occurring a little more than 100 times) cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Tagging Live indoor music venues
On 25 February 2013 12:13, Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com wrote: I don't think separating rock music venues and concert halls is a good idea. They are basically the same thing, a big room where music is played. I don't agree. For the same reason we have both amenity=cafe and amenity=restaurant I think it's a better idea to have both amenity=concert_hall and amenity=music_venue. Of course one could make the argument that we should only have amenity=sustenance and amenity=music_venue, but then then we would lose information just for the sake of abstraction. /Markus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Tagging Live indoor music venues
Am 25.02.2013 16:17, schrieb Markus Lindholm: On 25 February 2013 12:13, Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com wrote: I don't think separating rock music venues and concert halls is a good idea. They are basically the same thing, a big room where music is played. I don't agree. For the same reason we have both amenity=cafe and amenity=restaurant I think it's a better idea to have both amenity=concert_hall and amenity=music_venue. Of course one could make the argument that we should only have amenity=sustenance and amenity=music_venue, but then then we would lose information just for the sake of abstraction. Both are bad examples imho, as both don't exclude each other. A lot of locations are both: restaurant and cafe, selling warm meals for lunch and dinner and coffee and cakes in the afternoon; and some music locations are used for classical concerts as well as for rock, pop, theater, musical, comedy and whatever more regularly. Some stadiums nowadays are built with multiple usages in mind, e.g. the arena Auf Schalke of the German soccer club Schalke 04. Mainly a soccer stadium there have been events like Sensation White (Electro and House music), concerts (Herbert Grönemeyer, Metallica, Slayer, Pur, Bruce Springsteen, U2, AC/DC, Bon Jovi, Robbie Williams), operas (Aida, Carmen, Turandot) (source partly [1]). Another example sport stadium with multiple usages is the Lanxess Arena (formerly known as Kölnarena) in Cologne. On the other hand the Seidensticker-Halle in Bielefeld is usually a sports facility for schools in Bielefeld, but used for all kind of events, too. I like the idea of tags for concert hall, music venue and the like, but it should be possible to mix them, e.g. by using a very generic term (like amenity=event_location) and several sub tags (like: concert_events=yes, sport_events=regularly, theatre=yes, opera=no, parties=no, conferences=yes) or something like that. regards Peter [1] de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veltins-Arena ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Tagging Live indoor music venues
2013/2/25 Peter Wendorff wendo...@uni-paderborn.de I like the idea of tags for concert hall, music venue and the like, but it should be possible to mix them, e.g. by using a very generic term (like amenity=event_location) and several sub tags (like: concert_events=yes, sport_events=regularly, theatre=yes, opera=no, parties=no, conferences=yes) or something like that. I've been thinking about this problem a lot, and I think those tags shouldn't be taken to seriously. They are all pretty vague and have lot's of gray areas. So I'm sure a place exists that could be tagged as a caffe, fast_food, restaurant, pub and a night_club. I think we shouldn't lose too much sleep over it. Just use the one that surrounding people use most. But if we want to be precise, we can invent a big collection of attributes which should be strictly used. Tags like service:bicycle:rent=yes, dance_podium=yes, service:food:pizza=yes, service:drink:coffee=yes etc. That's information you should be able to rely on. If you have a amenity=caffe + service:food:pizza=yes, it can still be called a caffe. Janko ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Tagging Live indoor music venues
On 25 February 2013 16:58, Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com wrote: Ok, I can agree that having a concert_hall tag is valuable because it's easier for mappers to remember it. But then how should we call other music venues? If you look for music venue on wikipedia, the first picture is a concert hall: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_venue I suggest we use amenity=music_venue for each place where music is played, and we use amenity=concert_hall as a specialized type of a music venue. Sounds good to me. There's also other specific tags like bandshell, nightclub etc that I think should be used instead of the generic music_venue when applicable. /Markus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Tagging Live indoor music venues
Hello everybody, Please use the appropriate list, tagging@ is that way - -- --- m.v.g., Cartinus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Tagging Live indoor music venues
On Sun, 2013-02-24 at 11:37 -0500, william skora wrote: Hi, I was curious us to hear what others have been using to tag music venues. There's numerous places in my city that hold upwards of 1,000 people for music concerts (also called 'shows'). In the US, they're indoors, serve alcohol, and usually only open when there are shows. There's usually admittance fees to enter. I'm thinking of places like House of Blues (yes, there's restaurants adjacent to some of them, but the one i've been to is separate from the concert venue), (Cleveland places like Beachland Ballroom, the Grog Shop), and more famous places like Bowery Ballroom. I looked on the wiki, didn't find anything besides a dead proposal - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Music_venue That uses amenity=music_venue and has 56 uses according to taginfo. There's amenity=nightclub http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dnightclub but I don't think would be a great fit, there's not dancing at the concert venues (unless count the occasional mosh pit) that I'm describing. Plus, maybe it's just me, nightclub don't have live performers unless you count DJ's. Here's a related question on it in help - https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/13007/which-tag-should-be-used-for-a-concert-hall amenity=concert_hall has about 67 uses according to taginfo. At first thought, I don't think there's an appropriate documented tag, so I'm inclined to use amenity=concert_hall or amenity=music_venue Your thoughts ? Had not really thought about this one, but I do love going to rock concerts. I did look at my favourite venue, Rock City in Nottingham, but that is tagged as a night club. I don't think it does it justice, it does have a night club downstairs, but that is not the reason people travel from all over the country to go to gigs there. I saw INXS there back in the early 90s. I would support amenity=music_venue, it describes this type of place. In my mind, amenity=concert_hall is different, I would use that for posher places such as The Royal Albert Hall and Carnegie Hall. The tag live_music=yes has been used 9 times, I think that is good for somewhere like a pub that has regular live music, but live music is not its primary use. Phil (trigpoint) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Tagging Live indoor music venues
2013/2/24 Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk: I would support amenity=music_venue, it describes this type of place. In my mind, amenity=concert_hall is different, I would use that for posher places such as The Royal Albert Hall and Carnegie Hall. +1 cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
