Re: [OSM-talk] Is it a temporary file or Derivative Database under ODbL
Hi, On 06/22/11 02:15, David Murn wrote: Im pretty sure that 99.5% of users would never be sued if they put an OSM map onto their website without proper attribution too, that doesnt mean that we shouldnt talk about it, or move the conversation to some obscure list where even the name is enough to scare interested people away. Discussion about what kind of attribution is adequate is a typical legal-talk topic. That legal-talk was some obscure list is entirely in your head and has no basis in reality. The only people who cannot make the distinction are those who - mistakenly - believe that just because something is important to them it must be important to everyone. I for one am interested to know the answer to these sorts of questions, Great. Read legal-talk then. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Is it a temporary file or Derivative Database under ODbL
On 6/21/2011 4:20 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote: We have a specalist mailing list, legal-talk, to discuss these matters. However, in this particular question you are unlikely to find a firm answer, given that the question whether temporary files constitute a proper manifestation of data or are just an implementation detail of an algorithm is something that lots of lawyers are discussing (see current cases about streaming media and if consumers need a copyright license). I try to stay out of this argument, but I'd advise everyone to carefully read the text above, and then read it again. If I wanted to spend my time talking to lawyers (and could afford it) I'd be building applications with Teleatlas and similar data sources. There's no end to the involvement of lawyers, salespersons and other parasites there. People who want to build applications gravitate towards open data precisely because they can escape this BS and be engineers. Fred has just made a brilliant explanation of why the license change is an attempt of the OSMF to commit suicide. Ten years from now, OSM may well be like Usenet or DOS, fondly remembered but part of the past. It didn't have to be this way, and frankly, the same effect of the license change could have been had by just deleting all the data, selling the servers, and letting the domain names expire and be bought by domainers -- except this way people are going to keep wasting their time on a project that's been failed. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Is it a temporary file or Derivative Database under ODbL
I would like to suggest the continuation of dual-licensing under CC-BY-SA in addition to ODbL. Then, anyone who is currently making use of OSM will be able to continue doing so with no legal worries. There would then be a choice of two ways to use the OSM map data: - old-style share-alike: your final result must be distributed under CC-BY-SA (which is fine for many in the existing OSM community, but not attractive to many commercial users) - new-style 'produced work' under ODbL: you don't have to distribute the final work under any particular licence, but you must share the derived database and tools needed. -- Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Is it a temporary file or Derivative Database under ODbL
Hi, i have a practical questions. If I want to generate a Garmin map for a larger country and want to add contour lines, it is impossible to merge the data only in the RAM. Hence a local temporary file is needed which would contain both, OSM and SRTM data. This temporary file would be deleted after the map creation process. Is this temporary file a Derivative Database with all legal requirements? -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Is-it-a-temporary-file-or-Derivative-Database-under-ODbL-tp6501556p6501556.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Is it a temporary file or Derivative Database under ODbL
Hi, ThomasB wrote: Is this temporary file a Derivative Database with all legal requirements? We have a specalist mailing list, legal-talk, to discuss these matters. However, in this particular question you are unlikely to find a firm answer, given that the question whether temporary files constitute a proper manifestation of data or are just an implementation detail of an algorithm is something that lots of lawyers are discussing (see current cases about streaming media and if consumers need a copyright license). Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Is it a temporary file or Derivative Database under ODbL
I can not accept this answer, Frederik. Generating a Garmin map with contour lines is not something special. I guess all programs that generate such maps for larger areas need local temp files. And now there is no answer available? What is with all these Garmin Maps? If a local temp file would constitute a database according to ODBL, it would make it very hard to generate it. I don't want to talk with lawyers on legal. I always get headaches when talking with lawyers. And I am part of this community and don't want to talk with legal people when asking such an easy question. If such an easy question requires legal advice, then something is wrong. -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Is-it-a-temporary-file-or-Derivative-Database-under-ODbL-tp6501556p6501636.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Is it a temporary file or Derivative Database under ODbL
Hi, ThomasB wrote: I can not accept this answer, Frederik. [...] I don't want to talk with lawyers on legal. Legal has one or two lawyers, plus a lot of ordinary mappers like you and me who think about about legal matters. The list exists not to entertain lawyers but simply to separate traffic on the community lists. Just like we have a tagging list for tagging-specific discussions. I'm relatively sure that 99.5% of readers of this talk list will never create a Garmin map with SOTM contours, and are quite uninterested in the finer details of what exactly a temporary file means in legal terms. If you cannot be bothered to adhere to the simplest protocols that make all our lives easier, then don't expect us to help you. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Is it a temporary file or Derivative Database under ODbL
Frederik Ramm wrote: I'm relatively sure that 99.5% of readers of this talk list will never create a Garmin map with SOTM contours, I guess your mean SRTM. Anyway, I am relativly sure that more than 0.5% of the readers here USE maps with contours lines. And this only the OSM community. There are some others like Geocacher that use such maps. Who do you think will produce these maps with this point requiring legal advice? And what do you think a laywer will say when asked when the community using the license has no idea? -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Is-it-a-temporary-file-or-Derivative-Database-under-ODbL-tp6501556p6501702.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Is it a temporary file or Derivative Database under ODbL
ThomasB wrote: And what do you think a laywer will say when asked when the community using the license has no idea? The community has a perfectly good idea, as indeed you would do if you actually read the licence. ;) Under ODbL you are publicly using a Produced Work from a Derived Database. Your obligations are therefore to produce either the Derivative Database itself or, more practical in this instance, A file containing all of the alterations made to the Database or the method of making the alterations to the Database (such as an algorithm), including any additional Contents, that make up all the differences between the Database and the Derivative Database. There is no stipulation that the algorithm is machine-readable, simply an expectation that it could be followed by anyone reasonably competent in such matters. So a readme.txt detailing the steps required to transform OSM data into the derivative database will be fine. Show your working, if you like. Now, please stop being such a self-righteous arse and post to the proper mailing list in future. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Is-it-a-temporary-file-or-Derivative-Database-under-ODbL-tp6501556p6501822.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] [OSM-talk] Is it a temporary file or Derivative Database under ODbL
re-routing from talk@ On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 4:13 PM, ThomasB toba0...@yahoo.de wrote: Hi, i have a practical questions. If I want to generate a Garmin map for a larger country and want to add contour lines, it is impossible to merge the data only in the RAM. Hence a local temporary file is needed which would contain both, OSM and SRTM data. This temporary file would be deleted after the map creation process. Is this temporary file a Derivative Database with all legal requirements? Dear Thomas, Just my perspective on this. I haven't made garmin maps with contours, so you'll have to forgive me if I get some of the steps or terms incorrect. I can see good points for arguing that a contour map is any one of a Collective Database, a Derivative Database or a Produced Work, depending on the details of how the contour map is implemented. I think that a strict reading of ODbL suggests that your temporary file is a Derivative Database. Under §3.1d this is permitted, Creation of temporary or permanent reproductions by any means and in any form, in whole or in part, including of any Derivative Databases or as a part of Collective Databases; I think that your temporary file is also exempt from further conditions if you do not Publicly Convey it. §4.2 Notices. If You Publicly Convey this Database, any Derivative Database, or the Database as part of a Collective Database, then You must: If you do not Publicly Convey the temporary file you would have no further obligations due to it. I presume that the final file(s) will be created from the temporary file. Those final file(s) would also be, in my opinion, a Derivative Database. Again, if you do not Publicly Convey it, and only use it yourself, you would have no further obligations. Otherwise, if you plan to share, sell, etc. the file(s) you would do so under the terms of §4 and the rest of ODbL. In addition to reading the ODbL, the OSM community has the opportunity to set community norms and guidelines[2]. I would suggest that creating maps for mobile devices is an ideal topic for such a community norm. These norms allow us to agree on practices that are sensible to our community. There has been little discussion of these norms to date. The Trivial Transformation guideline might well include such a mobile map conversion. [3] Best regards, Richard [1] http://www.opendatacommons.org/licenses/odbl/1.0/ [2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Open_Data_License/Community_Guidelines [3] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Open_Data_License/Trivial_Transformations_-_Guideline ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-t...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Is it a temporary file or Derivative Database under ODbL
HI, I am not a lawyer, but if you are creating a file for your private use and not distributing it, then I would say you have no real restrictions on what you can do. mike On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 10:13 PM, ThomasB toba0...@yahoo.de wrote: Hi, i have a practical questions. If I want to generate a Garmin map for a larger country and want to add contour lines, it is impossible to merge the data only in the RAM. Hence a local temporary file is needed which would contain both, OSM and SRTM data. This temporary file would be deleted after the map creation process. Is this temporary file a Derivative Database with all legal requirements? -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Is-it-a-temporary-file-or-Derivative-Database-under-ODbL-tp6501556p6501556.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- James Michael DuPont Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova and Albania flossk.org flossal.org ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Is it a temporary file or Derivative Database under ODbL
On Tue, 2011-06-21 at 22:49 +0200, Frederik Ramm wrote: Just like we have a tagging list for tagging-specific discussions. So if someone decided to change every highway=track into highway=unclassified or decided to mass-change aerodrome into airport, would that be an issue for tagging (since it was a change of tag) or would it be an issue for general talk (since it is a major change that affects potentially every user of the system)? I'm relatively sure that 99.5% of readers of this talk list will never create a Garmin map with SOTM contours, and are quite uninterested in the finer details of what exactly a temporary file means in legal terms. Im pretty sure that 99.5% of users would never be sued if they put an OSM map onto their website without proper attribution too, that doesnt mean that we shouldnt talk about it, or move the conversation to some obscure list where even the name is enough to scare interested people away. I for one am interested to know the answer to these sorts of questions, since it appears that this huge licence has been written but very little consideration has been given to the finer details, until they get pointed out 1000 times. At which point someone either makes a concession to the masses or an insult to those users who pointed out the problems. David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
