[OSM-talk] Is it time to redevelop JOSM?

[john whelan]

JAVA has a number of problems.  Many corporations ban its installation
citing security issues which restricts the machines that can use JOSM with
all its nice tools.

Oracle never was enamoured of open software and since it has taken over
JAVA the licensing has changed amongst other things.

I note that Vincent Privat has reservations about the new version saying
they are removing functionality from JAVA that JOSM depends on.

Running old versions of JAVA is I think impractical.  There are too many
security issues.

iD runs using an Internet connection and a browser.  I think there is a
need for something like JOSM which can work completely off line if need be.

C# apparently is open source.  Visual Studio 2017 is a professional
development environment.  Yes it is Windows and I recognise that many
prefer one flavour of UNIX or another but I think it is time to think
strategically and start work on a replacement for JOSM before we find we
can no longer use it.  It can certainly create code which will run on UNIX
systems.

I'm not saying C# is the only way to go.

My days as a coder were in the main forty years ago so I'm out of date
these days however I had occasion to use both C# and Visual Studio 2017
recently when the language I used to use to knock up the odd program was
unable to do what I was after.  I must confess I was impressed.

So thoughts ladies and gentlemen?

Thanks

Cheerio John
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it time to redevelop JOSM?

[James]

people will switch to openjdk. problem solved.

On Sun., Oct. 7, 2018, 5:09 p.m. john whelan,  wrote:

> JAVA has a number of problems.  Many corporations ban its installation
> citing security issues which restricts the machines that can use JOSM with
> all its nice tools.
>
> Oracle never was enamoured of open software and since it has taken over
> JAVA the licensing has changed amongst other things.
>
> I note that Vincent Privat has reservations about the new version saying
> they are removing functionality from JAVA that JOSM depends on.
>
> Running old versions of JAVA is I think impractical.  There are too many
> security issues.
>
> iD runs using an Internet connection and a browser.  I think there is a
> need for something like JOSM which can work completely off line if need be.
>
> C# apparently is open source.  Visual Studio 2017 is a professional
> development environment.  Yes it is Windows and I recognise that many
> prefer one flavour of UNIX or another but I think it is time to think
> strategically and start work on a replacement for JOSM before we find we
> can no longer use it.  It can certainly create code which will run on UNIX
> systems.
>
> I'm not saying C# is the only way to go.
>
> My days as a coder were in the main forty years ago so I'm out of date
> these days however I had occasion to use both C# and Visual Studio 2017
> recently when the language I used to use to knock up the odd program was
> unable to do what I was after.  I must confess I was impressed.
>
> So thoughts ladies and gentlemen?
>
> Thanks
>
> Cheerio John
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it time to redevelop JOSM?

[john whelan]

But will it run JOSM today or would some changes be required to JOSM?

Thanks John

On Sun, 7 Oct 2018, 5:11 pm James,  wrote:

> people will switch to openjdk. problem solved.
>
> On Sun., Oct. 7, 2018, 5:09 p.m. john whelan, 
> wrote:
>
>> JAVA has a number of problems.  Many corporations ban its installation
>> citing security issues which restricts the machines that can use JOSM with
>> all its nice tools.
>>
>> Oracle never was enamoured of open software and since it has taken over
>> JAVA the licensing has changed amongst other things.
>>
>> I note that Vincent Privat has reservations about the new version saying
>> they are removing functionality from JAVA that JOSM depends on.
>>
>> Running old versions of JAVA is I think impractical.  There are too many
>> security issues.
>>
>> iD runs using an Internet connection and a browser.  I think there is a
>> need for something like JOSM which can work completely off line if need be.
>>
>> C# apparently is open source.  Visual Studio 2017 is a professional
>> development environment.  Yes it is Windows and I recognise that many
>> prefer one flavour of UNIX or another but I think it is time to think
>> strategically and start work on a replacement for JOSM before we find we
>> can no longer use it.  It can certainly create code which will run on UNIX
>> systems.
>>
>> I'm not saying C# is the only way to go.
>>
>> My days as a coder were in the main forty years ago so I'm out of date
>> these days however I had occasion to use both C# and Visual Studio 2017
>> recently when the language I used to use to knock up the odd program was
>> unable to do what I was after.  I must confess I was impressed.
>>
>> So thoughts ladies and gentlemen?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Cheerio John
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it time to redevelop JOSM?

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 10/07/2018 11:07 PM, john whelan wrote:
> So thoughts ladies and gentlemen?

Someone attempted to re-develop JOSM (as "JOSM-ng") in 2008 and even
then (with JOSM having a fraction of the features it has today) it
didn't get anywhere ;)

I recently (on josm-dev) said that the actual code is not the essence of
JOSM, but the UI and workflow. I said that the actual language in which
it was written is irrelevant and that it could probably rewritten if
need be. But this was an opinion not widely shared among other
participants of the mailing list, and I guess they know what they're
talking about.

Writing a new piece of software that fully mimicks an existing program
is likely to be easier than developing a new editor from scratch, but
it's still a lot of work, and I don't currently see the need. I guess
there will be workarounds for many of the issues you mention, and some
issues are not work-around-able - for example, if your IT admin decides
that you should not be able to install software locally for security
reasons, then it is hard to envisage any kind of "offline editor"
working well. C# won't save you here.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it time to redevelop JOSM?

[Mike N]

On 10/7/2018 5:07 PM, john whelan wrote:
C# apparently is open source.  Visual Studio 2017 is a professional 
development environment.  Yes it is Windows and I recognise that many 
prefer one flavour of UNIX or another but I think it is time to think 
strategically and start work on a replacement for JOSM before we find we 
can no longer use it.  It can certainly create code which will run on 
UNIX systems.


I'm not saying C# is the only way to go.


  There's a lot to like about a C# solution, but currently lacks a 
cross platform desktop graphics library.  All the "Desktop pack" GUIs 
that Dotnet Core supports are Windows-only.   I don't know if there is a 
good open-source cross platform desktop GUI for C# yet.


  All that aside, my opinion is that it will be simpler to construct 
all the tools and functions to fill in where Oracle and other Javas may 
be dropping from newer versions.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it time to redevelop JOSM?

[James]

yes. I've been running openjdk since before the oracle debacle.

Openjdk is the bleeding edge version of java. All new features are now
developed on the openjdk side by oracle and other open source developers.

When a release is issued, oracle adds performance secret sauce to their
proprietary binaries, that's about it.

On Oct. 7, 2018 5:25 p.m., "john whelan"  wrote:

But will it run JOSM today or would some changes be required to JOSM?

Thanks John

On Sun, 7 Oct 2018, 5:11 pm James,  wrote:

> people will switch to openjdk. problem solved.
>
> On Sun., Oct. 7, 2018, 5:09 p.m. john whelan, 
> wrote:
>
>> JAVA has a number of problems.  Many corporations ban its installation
>> citing security issues which restricts the machines that can use JOSM with
>> all its nice tools.
>>
>> Oracle never was enamoured of open software and since it has taken over
>> JAVA the licensing has changed amongst other things.
>>
>> I note that Vincent Privat has reservations about the new version saying
>> they are removing functionality from JAVA that JOSM depends on.
>>
>> Running old versions of JAVA is I think impractical.  There are too many
>> security issues.
>>
>> iD runs using an Internet connection and a browser.  I think there is a
>> need for something like JOSM which can work completely off line if need be.
>>
>> C# apparently is open source.  Visual Studio 2017 is a professional
>> development environment.  Yes it is Windows and I recognise that many
>> prefer one flavour of UNIX or another but I think it is time to think
>> strategically and start work on a replacement for JOSM before we find we
>> can no longer use it.  It can certainly create code which will run on UNIX
>> systems.
>>
>> I'm not saying C# is the only way to go.
>>
>> My days as a coder were in the main forty years ago so I'm out of date
>> these days however I had occasion to use both C# and Visual Studio 2017
>> recently when the language I used to use to knock up the odd program was
>> unable to do what I was after.  I must confess I was impressed.
>>
>> So thoughts ladies and gentlemen?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Cheerio John
>> ___
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>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it time to redevelop JOSM?

[Richard]

On Sun, Oct 07, 2018 at 05:11:20PM -0400, James wrote:
> people will switch to openjdk. problem solved.

my hope too. Although Oracle's touch of death has left an impressive trace 
in the IT departments Java is much more than that single implementation by 
Sun/Oracle. Think Android, gcj, c-lang and a few dozens third party compilers 
and implementations, also many new languages depending on Java.

> > iD runs using an Internet connection and a browser.  I think there is a
> > need for something like JOSM which can work completely off line if need be.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Merkaartor ? 
Vespucci?

Richard

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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it time to redevelop JOSM?

[James]

Android(google) has been sued over implementing their own JVM, so they do
not depend on Oracle(oracle lost that fight too)

On Sun., Oct. 7, 2018, 5:38 p.m. Richard,  wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 07, 2018 at 05:11:20PM -0400, James wrote:
> > people will switch to openjdk. problem solved.
>
> my hope too. Although Oracle's touch of death has left an impressive trace
> in the IT departments Java is much more than that single implementation by
> Sun/Oracle. Think Android, gcj, c-lang and a few dozens third party
> compilers
> and implementations, also many new languages depending on Java.
>
> > > iD runs using an Internet connection and a browser.  I think there is a
> > > need for something like JOSM which can work completely off line if
> need be.
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Merkaartor ?
> Vespucci?
>
> Richard
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it time to redevelop JOSM?

[Jem]

Putting aside the string of 0-day exploits on applet plugins (which
absolutely nobody uses) that we saw a few years ago, I'm finding it
difficult to get info that backs up the claim that Java is much less secure
than .NET. What I have found indicates they are on par.  e.g.
https://www.veracode.com/sites/default/files/Resources/Reports/state-of-software-security-focus-on-application-development.pdf

It feels a bit like the old "java is slow" argument, which hasn't been true
for over a decade.

On Mon, 8 Oct 2018 at 07:40, James  wrote:

> Android(google) has been sued over implementing their own JVM, so they do
> not depend on Oracle(oracle lost that fight too)
>
> On Sun., Oct. 7, 2018, 5:38 p.m. Richard,  wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Oct 07, 2018 at 05:11:20PM -0400, James wrote:
>> > people will switch to openjdk. problem solved.
>>
>> my hope too. Although Oracle's touch of death has left an impressive
>> trace
>> in the IT departments Java is much more than that single implementation
>> by
>> Sun/Oracle. Think Android, gcj, c-lang and a few dozens third party
>> compilers
>> and implementations, also many new languages depending on Java.
>>
>> > > iD runs using an Internet connection and a browser.  I think there is
>> a
>> > > need for something like JOSM which can work completely off line if
>> need be.
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Merkaartor ?
>> Vespucci?
>>
>> Richard
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it time to redevelop JOSM?

[Matthijs Melissen]

On Sun, 7 Oct 2018 at 23:11, john whelan  wrote:

> JAVA has a number of problems.  Many corporations ban its installation
> citing security issues which restricts the machines that can use JOSM with
> all its nice tools.
>

Is this an actual problem you, or people you know, encounter? If so, is
this a policy or a technical measure? In any case, banning Java but
allowing arbitrary other executables is silly (a good policy would ban Java
Applet plug-ins from browsers instead, this is what might have caused the
confusion).

Would offering a version of JOSM somehow wrapped in a .exe help?

-- Matthijs
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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it time to redevelop JOSM?

[John Whelan]

It's not a major problem but it does come up from time to time.  Usually 
iD is acceptable and if they are a heavy mapper then they'll find a 
suitable machine.


A version of JOSM wrapped in an .exe than ran under windows would be 
useful as long as JAVA did not have to be installed.


My feeling runs along the lines of Fredrick's comments.  The language 
isn't particularly important, we do have a very good idea of what works 
well so its not from scratch if need be.


I think what is important are the issues are raised and discussed and I 
think that has been done.


There is probably an element of religion here, the existing developers 
know JAVA and their existing development environment and are happy with 
it.  It would be a lot of work and there would be a lot of testing to do 
and I've never one for change for change sake.


Let's hope there isn't an urgent need in the future.  If it needs to be 
done it's better to have sufficient time available.


Cheerio John

Matthijs Melissen wrote on 2018-10-07 6:12 PM:
On Sun, 7 Oct 2018 at 23:11, john whelan > wrote:


JAVA has a number of problems. Many corporations ban its
installation citing security issues which restricts the machines
that can use JOSM with all its nice tools.


Is this an actual problem you, or people you know, encounter? If so, 
is this a policy or a technical measure? In any case, banning Java but 
allowing arbitrary other executables is silly (a good policy would ban 
Java Applet plug-ins from browsers instead, this is what might have 
caused the confusion).


Would offering a version of JOSM somehow wrapped in a .exe help?

-- Matthijs
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--
Sent from Postbox 

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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it time to redevelop JOSM?

[Florian Lohoff]

On Sun, Oct 07, 2018 at 05:27:19PM -0400, Mike N wrote:
> > I'm not saying C# is the only way to go.
> 
>   There's a lot to like about a C# solution, but currently lacks a cross
> platform desktop graphics library.  All the "Desktop pack" GUIs that Dotnet
> Core supports are Windows-only.   I don't know if there is a good
> open-source cross platform desktop GUI for C# yet.

Python/QT ?

Flo
-- 
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UTF-8 Test: The 🐈 ran after a 🐁, but the 🐁 ran away


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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it time to redevelop JOSM?

[Florian Lohoff]

Hi,

On Sun, Oct 07, 2018 at 11:26:20PM +0200, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> Someone attempted to re-develop JOSM (as "JOSM-ng") in 2008 and even
> then (with JOSM having a fraction of the features it has today) it
> didn't get anywhere ;)
> 
> I recently (on josm-dev) said that the actual code is not the essence of
> JOSM, but the UI and workflow. I said that the actual language in which
> it was written is irrelevant and that it could probably rewritten if
> need be. But this was an opinion not widely shared among other
> participants of the mailing list, and I guess they know what they're
> talking about.

> Writing a new piece of software that fully mimicks an existing program
> is likely to be easier than developing a new editor from scratch, but
> it's still a lot of work, and I don't currently see the need. I guess
> there will be workarounds for many of the issues you mention, and some
> issues are not work-around-able - for example, if your IT admin decides
> that you should not be able to install software locally for security
> reasons, then it is hard to envisage any kind of "offline editor"
> working well. C# won't save you here.

Over the last 2-3 years i am getting my trouble with josm because it
is no longer an offline editor. Everyone who has tried starting josm
on Edge type connections (Yes - i do have DSL Light with 384KBit/s at
home) knows what i am talking about.

For me the best case starting josm is 2-3 Minutes - YES Minutes. Worst
case i am at 35 Minutes - Thats more than half an hour.
This happens when some "view" decides that its time to update its png
files from the web. The EU Sign file is 42 MByte which is at best case
35KByte/s - 1228 seconds to download.

Just count the number of network requests for views, image layers,
motd, plugins, user details, user messages and you know the pain.

There is no way to make JOSM really an offline editor now.

Flo
-- 
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UTF-8 Test: The 🐈 ran after a 🐁, but the 🐁 ran away


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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it time to redevelop JOSM?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

7. Oct 2018 23:07 by jwhelan0...@gmail.com :


> JAVA has a number of problems.  




Can you give examples that would justify a massive effort of reimplementing 
JOSM?


 

> Many corporations ban its installation citing security issues which restricts 
> the machines that can use JOSM with all its nice tools.




Because that some people will not be able to use JOSM at their work is not one 


that would justify that.




Because people who map at their work, and have banned Java and other 
executables 


are allowed is not high.





> C# apparently is open source.  Visual Studio 2017 is a professional 
> development environment.  Yes it is Windows and I recognise that many prefer 
> one flavour of UNIX or another but I think it is time to think strategically 
> and start work on a replacement for JOSM before we find we can no longer use 
> it.  It can certainly create code which will run on UNIX systems.
> I'm not saying C# is the only way to go.  




What about openjdk?

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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it time to redevelop JOSM?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

8. Oct 2018 16:33 by f...@zz.de :


> Over the last 2-3 years i am getting my trouble with josm because it
> is no longer an offline editor. Everyone who has tried starting josm
> on Edge type connections (Yes - i do have DSL Light with 384KBit/s at
> home) knows what i am talking about.
>
> For me the best case starting josm is 2-3 Minutes - YES Minutes. Worst
> case i am at 35 Minutes - Thats more than half an hour.
> This happens when some "view" decides that its time to update its png
> files from the web. The EU Sign file is 42 MByte which is at best case
> 35KByte/s - 1228 seconds to download.
>
> Just count the number of network requests for views, image layers,
> motd, plugins, user details, user messages and you know the pain.
>
> There is no way to make JOSM really an offline editor now.
>




Have you tried reporting problems at JOSM issue tracker?




In my experience reported issue generally get fixed quickly

- JOSM is the largest project known to me where reporting all 


encountered issues is worth time used to do that.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it time to redevelop JOSM?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

8. Oct 2018 01:01 by jwhelan0...@gmail.com :


> There is probably an element of religion here, the existing developers know 
> JAVA and their existing development environment and are happy with it.  It 
> would be a lot of work and there would be a lot of testing to do and I've 
> never one for change for change sake.  
>




It is far more practical. JOSN developers are great JAVA developers.




It is unlikely that  all of them are also excellent, say, C# developers.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it time to redevelop JOSM?

[John Whelan]

>What about openjdk?

From the openjdk website for windows 10 "We're counting down to the 
last free Oracle Java 8 update - what's your plan?"


We appear to have 96 days left.

I merely raised a concern, but thank you for bringing this additional 
information to our notice it wasn't something I wasn't aware of.


Cheerio John


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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it time to redevelop JOSM?

[James]

http://openjdk.java.net/
All the code is gplv2 so I doubt we'd have any issues using it.

Java 11 is supported on openjdk and there are beta builds of Java 12
far are the days where openjdk was 2-3 versions behind the current api level

On Wed., Oct. 10, 2018, 6:42 p.m. John Whelan, 
wrote:

>  >What about openjdk?
>
>  From the openjdk website for windows 10 "We're counting down to the
> last free Oracle Java 8 update - what's your plan?"
>
> We appear to have 96 days left.
>
> I merely raised a concern, but thank you for bringing this additional
> information to our notice it wasn't something I wasn't aware of.
>
> Cheerio John
>
>
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