Re: [OSM-talk] Locating objects in Google Maps/Earth
2009/2/24 Kenneth Gonsalves law...@au-kbc.org: On Monday 23 February 2009 19:52:37 LeedsTracker wrote: E.g. I take a photo of a level crossing, locate in in Google Maps, upload and tag it in WikiMedia Commons - no problem it seems. Is this different from using the same method to adjust the level crossing node in OSM accordingly? and just suppose that the location of this particular level crossing in google maps is an easter egg? And what if a thousand of us get a thousand level crossing locations from google maps?... OSM now has all of google's level crossings. I'm fairly sure they'd complain (or their map provider would). Please don't use Google Maps when doing OSM. It's just not worth the risk. Dave ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Locating objects in Google Maps/Earth
2009/2/24 Kenneth Gonsalves law...@au-kbc.org: On Monday 23 February 2009 19:52:37 LeedsTracker wrote: E.g. I take a photo of a level crossing, locate in in Google Maps, upload and tag it in WikiMedia Commons - no problem it seems. Is this different from using the same method to adjust the level crossing node in OSM accordingly? and just suppose that the location of this particular level crossing in google maps is an easter egg? I meant using the satellite imagery. I should have been clearer! Satellite imagery easter eggs is a whole other topic... regards, LT ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Locating objects in Google Maps/Earth
2009/2/24 Dave Stubbs osm.l...@randomjunk.co.uk: 2009/2/24 Kenneth Gonsalves law...@au-kbc.org: On Monday 23 February 2009 19:52:37 LeedsTracker wrote: E.g. I take a photo of a level crossing, locate in in Google Maps, upload and tag it in WikiMedia Commons - no problem it seems. Is this different from using the same method to adjust the level crossing node in OSM accordingly? and just suppose that the location of this particular level crossing in google maps is an easter egg? And what if a thousand of us get a thousand level crossing locations from google maps?... OSM now has all of google's level crossings. I'm fairly sure they'd complain (or their map provider would). Again, I meant from their satellite images, not their maps. If we managed, from that, to derive 1000 or 100 level crossings over the normal course of events (i.e. years), would that be OK? Nic's reply suggests so. Please don't use Google Maps when doing OSM. It's just not worth the risk. I understand that this is a safe and wise rule, but as Wikimedia Commons' site suggests (and Nic's reply, commenting on talk-legal discussions), there may be a fair use (or fair dealing) for rectifying the location of an object this way. Yours devils-advocately, LT ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Locating objects in Google Maps/Earth
Please don't use Google Maps when doing OSM. It's just not worth the risk. I understand that this is a safe and wise rule, but as Wikimedia Commons' site suggests (and Nic's reply, commenting on talk-legal discussions), there may be a fair use (or fair dealing) for rectifying the location of an object this way. The concept of fair use is something which differs from one jurisdiction to another. Here in the UK for example, we have no fair use rights at all. Even ripping a CD to your PC and downloading it to a portable music player is technically not something you have a right to do, although in this case any copyright owner who tried to sue a user for doing so would be completely mad. Whilst fair use may be used as a defence for rectifying data using Google Maps in the USA, it would not be a valid defence in the UK or a number of other jurisdictions. Just go out with a GPS to take an accurate position, or use another data source that we have a right to use. After all, the fun of openstreetmap.org is creating our own map, using our own tools (such as our feet, bicycles and GPS-enabled gadgets). I do use the yahoo imagery when there is no alternative, but it's better to have a legally-clean (but not quite complete) map which still allows someone the fun of completing it, than one which people can't use with confidence because they're not sure of its legality. Donald ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Locating objects in Google Maps/Earth
On 24/02/2009 09:58, LeedsTracker wrote: Please don't use Google Maps when doing OSM. It's just not worth the risk. I understand that this is a safe and wise rule, but as Wikimedia Commons' site suggests (and Nic's reply, commenting on talk-legal discussions), there may be a fair use (or fair dealing) for rectifying the location of an object this way. Yours devils-advocately, If there is, i.e. there's been a test case where it was definitively decided, then that's one thing, but if there may be then also there may not be and that means you'd only find out when Google or their provider closes OSM down under threat of millions of dollars of lawsuits. So just don't do it if there's doubt, I say. The whole basis of OSM is that we don't derive data from copyright sources without explicit permission. David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Locating objects in Google Maps/Earth
2009/2/24 Donald Allwright donald_allwri...@yahoo.com: Please don't use Google Maps when doing OSM. It's just not worth the risk. I understand that this is a safe and wise rule, but as Wikimedia Commons' site suggests (and Nic's reply, commenting on talk-legal discussions), there may be a fair use (or fair dealing) for rectifying the location of an object this way. The concept of fair use is something which differs from one jurisdiction to another. [snip] I know, though the principle is in UK law: http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p09_fair_use With Google and OSM users being in many countries, I accept it's a legal headache Just go out with a GPS to take an accurate position, or use another data source that we have a right to use. [snip] I do. To be clear, I'm not advocating using Gmaps/G-earth for OSM, I was just puzzled by the (apparently unproblematic) use of it in Wikimedia and wondered if a parallel use was justifiable. Also, I can't see what Google would gain by stopping Wikimedia users from geolocating their pics, while OSM is eventually going to compete with gmaps. 2009/2/24 David Earl da...@frankieandshadow.com: The whole basis of OSM is that we don't derive data from copyright sources without explicit permission. I guess this is the bottom line. As Nic replied, very limited usage might be defensible, but best not to have anything to defend. regards, LT ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Locating objects in Google Maps/Earth
http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p09_fair_use I'm guessing that the spelling mistake on the front page (Devirative works) is an Easter Egg to stop anyone copying it... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Locating objects in Google Maps/Earth
LeedsTracker wrote: I do. To be clear, I'm not advocating using Gmaps/G-earth for OSM, I was just puzzled by the (apparently unproblematic) use of it in Wikimedia and wondered if a parallel use was justifiable. Put yourself in the shoes of Google's lawyers - and, more significantly, those of their data suppliers. The law is unclear here, and Google/BigDataCo aren't actually losing out by this use. (You could argue they're gaining - every site which significantly draws on Google Maps reinforces their position at the head of the ecosystem.) So there would be no gain for them in a long, drawn-out, involved legal battle against Wikimedia, especially when you consider the adverse PR. But if we did it, Google/BigDataCo would be at risk of losing out - their future customers could use our data instead, or our data repackaged by an added-value company. Even if BigDataCo had to spend months on the case, it would be worth them stopping us deriving. So they would sue. (Besides, the Wikipedia crowd have deeper pockets than us.) Also, I can't see what Google would gain by stopping Wikimedia users from geolocating their pics, while OSM is eventually going to compete with gmaps. Exactly. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Locating-objects-in-Google-Maps-Earth-tp22162444p22186685.html Sent from the OpenStreetMap - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Locating objects in Google Maps/Earth
On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 04:00:22PM +, LeedsTracker wrote: The concept of fair use is something which differs from one jurisdiction to another. [snip] I know, though the principle is in UK law: http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p09_fair_use That page is a little misleading. It talks about fair dealing, and mixes it up with fair use (and other terms). They’re similar, but fair dealing is much more strict than the US concept of fair use. A better place to start than the UK Copyright Service (whoever they are) would be the Intellectual Property Office pages on copyright[1]. Specifically, the exceptions to copyright[2]. The page on fair dealing[3] says all you need really: “There is no strict definition of what this means but it has been *interpreted by the courts* on a number of occasions by looking at the economic impact on the copyright owner of the use.” In other words, we can’t be sure that what we do with other peoples’ works constitutes fair dealing. Better be safe than sorry and avoid the bother. [1]: http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/copy.htm [2]: http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/copy/c-other/c-exception.htm [3]: http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/copy/c-other/c-exception/c-exception-review/c-exception-fairdealing.htm Simon -- A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that works.—John Gall signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Locating objects in Google Maps/Earth
Hello all, Sorry to open this up again, but... I just uploaded my first pic to http://commons.wikimedia.org It gives the option to add a geo location for where you took the photo from. This page gives many methods for doing that, including locating on Google Maps or Google Earth: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Geocoding If I used this method to tweak the position of a feature (e.g. building, road crossing, postbox) in OSM, would it be A Bad Thing? E.g. I take a photo of a level crossing, locate in in Google Maps, upload and tag it in WikiMedia Commons - no problem it seems. Is this different from using the same method to adjust the level crossing node in OSM accordingly? In my mind, both things are just entries in a database. WikiMedia Commons seems happy to share this data under the same licence as the photo I took. I assume Google know about this and don't object. At what point does something become a derived work? yours confused, LT ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Locating objects in Google Maps/Earth
Hi, From what I've read on talk-legal on more than one occasion : Deriving individual nodes and individual segments on a small scale is OK. Esp. when they are derived from raw facts (photos and gps traces). But extracting a whole bunch of nodes and segments that link up is bad. It's not that Google does not object, but rather legal limits on copyright provisions (Fair use / Fair trading). So perhaps we can legally make a google maps based editor for doing this. But the risk of abuse by a newbie is just too great and not really worth the extra consideration needed. On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 4:22 PM, LeedsTracker leedstrac...@gmail.com wrote: Hello all, Sorry to open this up again, but... I just uploaded my first pic to http://commons.wikimedia.org It gives the option to add a geo location for where you took the photo from. This page gives many methods for doing that, including locating on Google Maps or Google Earth: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Geocoding If I used this method to tweak the position of a feature (e.g. building, road crossing, postbox) in OSM, would it be A Bad Thing? E.g. I take a photo of a level crossing, locate in in Google Maps, upload and tag it in WikiMedia Commons - no problem it seems. Is this different from using the same method to adjust the level crossing node in OSM accordingly? In my mind, both things are just entries in a database. WikiMedia Commons seems happy to share this data under the same licence as the photo I took. I assume Google know about this and don't object. At what point does something become a derived work? yours confused, LT ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Locating objects in Google Maps/Earth
On Monday 23 February 2009 19:52:37 LeedsTracker wrote: E.g. I take a photo of a level crossing, locate in in Google Maps, upload and tag it in WikiMedia Commons - no problem it seems. Is this different from using the same method to adjust the level crossing node in OSM accordingly? and just suppose that the location of this particular level crossing in google maps is an easter egg? -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves Associate NRC-FOSS http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
