Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org - some numbers
On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 9:36 PM, SomeoneElse li...@mail.atownsend.org.ukwrote: In an attempt to put some numbers to to the errors made by new mappers debate, I've done a count-back of new users and editors that they use for they area that I keep an eye on in the UK (England and bits of Wales, not including bits that I'm unfamiliar with such as London and the south-east) Hi, Just wondering what tools you use to keep an eye on that area? I'd love to have a better idea of what other editors are doing in my area. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org - some numbers
2013/8/25 Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com Hi, Just wondering what tools you use to keep an eye on that area? I'd love to have a better idea of what other editors are doing in my area. I'm using IFTTT to get an email from the rss-feeds created by Pascal Neis' new mappers service. The feed is here (adjust the coordinates to your needs): http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/newestosmfeed.php?lon=12.5lat=41.86deg=1 and an example recipe is here: https://ifttt.com/recipes/76850 cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org - some numbers
Am 24.08.13 schrieb Lester Caine: See other thread an why there should not be a delete button! I made the same case on potlatch in the past and now the reasons are even greater. In your last 5 changesets you deleted 7 nodes. You improved the quality of the map by deleting (and adding) nodes. When you try a new editor or add a node by mistake, you might not want to save everything you added. So you need a way to delete them without throwing away all your changes. Fabian. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org - some numbers
Fabian Schmidt wrote: See other thread an why there should not be a delete button! I made the same case on potlatch in the past and now the reasons are even greater. In your last 5 changesets you deleted 7 nodes. You improved the quality of the map by deleting (and adding) nodes. When you try a new editor or add a node by mistake, you might not want to save everything you added. So you need a way to delete them without throwing away all your changes. As none of the editors understand the concept of historic information, none of them do the job right. id certainly does NOT allow moving nodes as well as P2 does - although part of that is probably now learning yet another interface!!! Undo and redo are the correct way of handling things WITHIN a changeset, and yes delete is appropriate in the change set, but nodes that already exist IN the database need different handling. New mappers may not even appreciate that a node may be part of many other objects, and so while they are deleting it in the concept of what they are modifying, it may not be appropriate for the other ways using it! It irritates me that people merge ways because of a 'macro' view, but pulling them back apart to restore the the micro view is difficult with the current tools :( And has trouble with the reusing the changeset history. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org - some numbers
John Firebaugh wrote: During the last month in this area: P2 iD JOSM Other (Wheelmap / Go Map! / POI+) Made no newbie errors34 17 3 3 Made at least one newbie error 40 16 1 3 Made more serious errors 5 0 1 0 So 45 of 79 new contributors (57%) made errors with P2, 16 of 33 (48%) with iD, 2 of 5 (40%) with JOSM, and 3 of 6 (50%) with other editors. While there's no doubt a fair margin of error here, what I conclude from this is while it's still much too easy for new contributors to make mistakes with our current editors, there's some indication that they make fewer errors (especially serious ones) with iD than with P2. If you have time, I would love to see more numbers in the future or changeset examples that show what types of errors are most common. No problem - at current rate of registration there'll be 50 or so new mappers in that same area in a couple of weeks or so (the rate will hopefully go up with press such as https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6265150 ), so I'll have a look then. I'm a bit wary of posting individual user errors in a searchable public forum (I wouldn't have wanted my new user errors preserved for posterity in that way!) but will try recreate and summarise the common ones below. Of course the iD versions used in the data above and the summaries below won't be current so these issues may already have been addressed. 1) A POI added without a main tag http://api06.dev.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/4295739963 I suspect that people are adding a point to a map (in this case for a shop), and are not seeing shop in the default list to the left or understanding that they can search. In my experience the search works really well, and once a point has been added by mistake the change feature tooltip is pretty obvious too - so I've no idea how to improve here! 2) Thing X changed to thing Y http://api06.dev.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/4295035814 There have been a couple of examples of people clicking in an area (in this example landuse=residential) and then changing it to match the POI or area that they're trying to add, resulting in something like this unfeasibly large place of worship. 3) Deletions http://api06.dev.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/30174 I've no idea whether things are being deleted by clicking on the rubbish bin icon or pressing the keyboard shortcut. According to comments on #osm-gb there have been a couple of attempts to find out what buttons people are clicking, but the answer is I didn't mean to do X - I've no idea how it happened. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org - some numbers
SomeoneElse wrote: 1) A POI added without a main tag http://api06.dev.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/4295739963 I suspect that people are adding a point to a map (in this case for a shop), and are not seeing shop in the default list to the left or understanding that they can search. In my experience the search works really well, and once a point has been added by mistake the change feature tooltip is pretty obvious too - so I've no idea how to improve here! Potlatch2 works nicely by drag and drop a selected POI onto the map. It's grid does need a little updating, but on the whole is a better starting point. I will be making a case for including that into id ... the current 'blank page' when adding a point is not user friendly at all! It took me a while and a few moves to get a POI node created in id ... 3) Deletions http://api06.dev.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/30174 I've no idea whether things are being deleted by clicking on the rubbish bin icon or pressing the keyboard shortcut. According to comments on #osm-gb there have been a couple of attempts to find out what buttons people are clicking, but the answer is I didn't mean to do X - I've no idea how it happened. See other thread an why there should not be a delete button! I made the same case on potlatch in the past and now the reasons are even greater. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org - some numbers
Thanks so much for running those numbers! Actual data is helpful in a conversation that has contained quite a few assumptions. (Continuing the assumption trend...) Anecdotally, as someone who only became an active editor last year, I found P2 more accessible than JOSM as a new contributor. I had an experienced contributor show me how to use both, but would usually default to P2. I could tell that JOSM was more feature-rich, but I found it overwhelming. I felt safer in P2 as i was getting started. I'm not a new contributor anymore, but I think that iD is following this trend. Even now, I almost always default to iD when I'm editing-- the cleaner interface is less overwhelming to me, and it's very rare that I'm doing something that isn't supported by iD. On Aug 21, 2013 4:08 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: Il giorno 21/ago/2013, alle ore 20:10, John Firebaugh john.fireba...@gmail.com ha scritto: So 45 of 79 new contributors (57%) made errors with P2, 16 of 33 (48%) with iD, 2 of 5 (40%) with JOSM, and 3 of 6 (50%) with other editors. While there's no doubt a fair margin of error here, what I conclude from this is while it's still much too easy for new contributors to make mistakes with our current editors, there's some indication that they make fewer errors (especially serious ones) with iD than with P2. one might conclude that Josm is the best suggestion for newbies (but there are probably too few numbers in this survey to be sure). Nobody has suggested so far in this thread to make Josm the default, but it could be an option? cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org - some numbers
Hi Andy, Thanks, this is great. I love having real numbers to discuss. On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 4:36 AM, SomeoneElse li...@mail.atownsend.org.ukwrote: Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, it has been proposed to make the newly released iD v1.1 the default editor on openstreetmap.org, meaning that if someone doesn't explicitly chose an editor they will open iD instead of Potlatch. In an attempt to put some numbers to to the errors made by new mappers debate, I've done a count-back of new users and editors that they use for they area that I keep an eye on in the UK (England and bits of Wales, not including bits that I'm unfamiliar with such as London and the south-east) During the last month in this area: P2 iD JOSM Other (Wheelmap / Go Map! / POI+) Made no newbie errors34 17 3 3 Made at least one newbie error 40 16 1 3 Made more serious errors 5 0 1 0 So 45 of 79 new contributors (57%) made errors with P2, 16 of 33 (48%) with iD, 2 of 5 (40%) with JOSM, and 3 of 6 (50%) with other editors. While there's no doubt a fair margin of error here, what I conclude from this is while it's still much too easy for new contributors to make mistakes with our current editors, there's some indication that they make fewer errors (especially serious ones) with iD than with P2. If you have time, I would love to see more numbers in the future or changeset examples that show what types of errors are most common. John ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org - some numbers
John Firebaugh wrote Hi Andy, Thanks, this is great. I love having real numbers to discuss. Indeed, that is great. So thanks for the effort to produce these numbers and allow the discussion to come back to an objective debate. Those numbers speaks towards that iD is no worse than P2, probably better, which is the most important criterion for making iD the default editor. It might still be nice to think about a possibility for a staged introduction (random sub-sample of newly created accounts are set to iD as the default, the rest initially remains at P2) to collect more statistics and eliminate the bias Andy mentioned in the more serious errors. One possible further thing to look at is, if there is a bias in editor retention in either iD or P2 depending on the browser used, given that iDs performance depends on the browser used. Is this information available anywhere though? Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Making-iD-the-default-editor-on-osm-org-tp5773770p5774425.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org - some numbers
Il giorno 21/ago/2013, alle ore 20:10, John Firebaugh john.fireba...@gmail.com ha scritto: So 45 of 79 new contributors (57%) made errors with P2, 16 of 33 (48%) with iD, 2 of 5 (40%) with JOSM, and 3 of 6 (50%) with other editors. While there's no doubt a fair margin of error here, what I conclude from this is while it's still much too easy for new contributors to make mistakes with our current editors, there's some indication that they make fewer errors (especially serious ones) with iD than with P2. one might conclude that Josm is the best suggestion for newbies (but there are probably too few numbers in this survey to be sure). Nobody has suggested so far in this thread to make Josm the default, but it could be an option? cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org - some numbers
Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, it has been proposed to make the newly released iD v1.1 the default editor on openstreetmap.org, meaning that if someone doesn't explicitly chose an editor they will open iD instead of Potlatch. In an attempt to put some numbers to to the errors made by new mappers debate, I've done a count-back of new users and editors that they use for they area that I keep an eye on in the UK (England and bits of Wales, not including bits that I'm unfamiliar with such as London and the south-east) During the last month in this area: P2 iD JOSM Other (Wheelmap / Go Map! / POI+) Made no newbie errors34 17 3 3 Made at least one newbie error 40 16 1 3 Made more serious errors 5 0 1 0 Where I've noticed that a mapper used both iD and P2 I've counted them in both columns. Newbie errors on Potlatch include things like nodes duplicating ways, and unjoined ways. Newbie errors on iD include things like unexpected deletions and changing thing X to be thing ywhen thing x still exists. More serious errors are things like doodles (including people trying to draw bike routes using MQ's Potlatch), misinterpreting imagery to draw roads that don't exist / add roads that aren't there and one of the perennial delete things to make printed map nicer. People who have chosen iD or JOSM have chosen a different editor to the default - I suspect that the doodlers aren't making errors because they're using Potlatch; they're doing it because they don't know what OSM _is_. They're the easiest errors to fix, though. FWIW I've not noticed a greater proportion of messed up relations with either P2 or iD. The area that I'm looking at has less of those than e.g. central London, though. This period largely predates relations in the iD UI. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
