Re: [OSM-talk] Military objects in RU: warning about status of voting
On 16 April 2010 19:55, Cartinus wrote: > On Friday 16 April 2010 20:29:41 Upliner wrote: >> Current situation is real edit war. I consider some interference is needed. > > Sorry, experience has learned that edit wars on the wiki only end when one > side gets bored with it. > I've locked the following 2 pages for edits at the moment. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/RU:Key:military http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/RU:Tag:landuse%3Dmilitary Now lets all cool off and re-analyse the problem. / Grant ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Military objects in RU: warning about status of voting
2010/4/17 Liz : > We have started to discuss different solutions, but we haven't really had much > feedback from the PocketGis people on which solutions are more suitable. I thought that Kirill and Eugene is already made the position of PocketGis community clear. If it is interesting, there is even the article about this flamewar in Russian online newspaper: http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http://www.ruformator.ru/news/article06530/default.asp&sl=ru&tl=en -- Best regards, Upliner ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Military objects in RU: warning about status of voting
On Sat, 17 Apr 2010, Upliner wrote: > 2010/4/17 Kirill Bestoujev : > > Frederik gave a great advice - if you say that wiki is not a law, just > > recommendations, then do not take it seriously, let those who want write > > what they want. > > > > Complaining is silly - there is no law, so there can be no punishment. > > Hey, wait! You've mentioned somthing like "try to solve problems". > Ignoring is rather un-solution than solution. Can I try to solve the > problem another way, rather than complaining? > We have started to discuss different solutions, but we haven't really had much feedback from the PocketGis people on which solutions are more suitable. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Military objects in RU: warning about status of voting
2010/4/17 Kirill Bestoujev : > Frederik gave a great advice - if you say that wiki is not a law, just > recommendations, then do not take it seriously, let those who want write > what they want. > > Complaining is silly - there is no law, so there can be no punishment. Hey, wait! You've mentioned somthing like "try to solve problems". Ignoring is rather un-solution than solution. Can I try to solve the problem another way, rather than complaining? -- Best regards, Upliner ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Military objects in RU: warning about status of voting
2010/4/17 Kirill Bestoujev : > Edit war with bots is not a way of solving problems... If you do not > understand that - then my words about small kids were more than right... > That's very sad... I don't think that edit war will solve the problem. I just don't understand what PocketGis guys want. And I just don't see another way than "complaining to the grownups". Do you? -- Best regards, Upliner ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Military objects in RU: warning about status of voting
Edit war with bots is not a way of solving problems... If you do not understand that - then my words about small kids were more than right... That's very sad... K. 2010/4/17 Upliner > 2010/4/17 Kirill Bestoujev : > > Please do not pay any attention to this stuff - small kids always prefer > to > > complain to the grownups, than to try to solve problems. > > > > K. > > Kirill, are you sure that creating a bot will really solve the > problem? If that, I can do it. > > -- > Best regards, > Upliner > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Military objects in RU: warning about status of voting
2010/4/17 Kirill Bestoujev : > Please do not pay any attention to this stuff - small kids always prefer to > complain to the grownups, than to try to solve problems. > > K. Kirill, are you sure that creating a bot will really solve the problem? If that, I can do it. -- Best regards, Upliner ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Military objects in RU: warning about status of voting
Frederik, there are NO bots, it's just Upliner fantasy. But there were some people on the complaining side who were discussing creation of bots for osm wiki :) But they decided not to do it and to accuse others of doing that - talking is always easy, doing - hard. Please do not pay any attention to this stuff - small kids always prefer to complain to the grownups, than to try to solve problems. K. 2010/4/17 Frederik Ramm > Hi, > > Nic Roets wrote: > > Our wiki plays a very important role in ensuring convergence of > > tagging standard, esp. homonyms, abstract concepts and those tags that > > are misnomers. In fact, it can be argued that some community members > > have become de facto moderators on the basis of the bots they operate. > > I didn't know there were bots on the Wiki. Care to elaborate? > > Bye > Frederik > > -- > Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Military objects in RU: warning about status of voting
2010/4/16 Cartinus > > On Friday 16 April 2010 20:29:41 Upliner wrote: > > Current situation is real edit war. I consider some interference is needed. > > Sorry, experience has learned that edit wars on the wiki only end when one > side gets bored with it. There are some hackers on both sides. What if there will be war of bots? I'm afraid that some good people could be banned because of this stupid thing. It's just a Russian temper. -- Best regards, Upliner ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Military objects in RU: warning about status of voting
Hi, Nic Roets wrote: > Our wiki plays a very important role in ensuring convergence of > tagging standard, esp. homonyms, abstract concepts and those tags that > are misnomers. In fact, it can be argued that some community members > have become de facto moderators on the basis of the bots they operate. I didn't know there were bots on the Wiki. Care to elaborate? Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Military objects in RU: warning about status of voting
On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 8:55 PM, Cartinus wrote: > Sorry, experience has learned that edit wars on the wiki only end when one > side gets bored with it. Surely this needs to be improved. Perhaps learn from Wikipedia and appoint Wiki moderators. Our wiki plays a very important role in ensuring convergence of tagging standard, esp. homonyms, abstract concepts and those tags that are misnomers. In fact, it can be argued that some community members have become de facto moderators on the basis of the bots they operate. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Military objects in RU: warning about status of voting
On Friday 16 April 2010 20:29:41 Upliner wrote: > Current situation is real edit war. I consider some interference is needed. Sorry, experience has learned that edit wars on the wiki only end when one side gets bored with it. -- m.v.g., Cartinus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Military objects in RU: warning about status of voting
> On the other hand this > vote is (like all votes in OSM) not binding but only demonstrating the > majority's (of the voters) consensus. However, Vctos and others is constantly trying to mislead the community claiming that voting MUST be obligatory. To prevent this misunderstanding Zkir added the warning, but Vctos is reverting it again and again. Current situation is real edit war. I consider some interference is needed. -- Best regards, Upliner ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Military objects in RU: warning about status of voting
2010/4/15 Lester Caine : > Of cause what is missing here is that since this 'vote' was only in Russian > then > the vast majority of us would not even be able to vote anyway. There should > perhaps be a rule about needing all votes to carry an English translation, > since > the consensus IS that all tagging is carried out IN English. -1. If the russian community sets up a vote it is clear that it will be in Russian, and IMHO thats perfectly fine. On the other hand this vote is (like all votes in OSM) not binding but only demonstrating the majority's (of the voters) consensus. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Military objects in RU: warning about status of voting
Kirill Bestoujev wrote: > > > 2010/4/15 Lester Caine mailto:les...@lsces.co.uk>> > > > Of cause what is missing here is that since this 'vote' was only in > Russian then > the vast majority of us would not even be able to vote anyway. There > should > perhaps be a rule about needing all votes to carry an English > translation, since > the consensus IS that all tagging is carried out IN English. Getting > changes to > the main tagging pages would have to be in English anyway? So is > there any > validity to this vote anyway? The main definition of landuse should > follow the > international standards, and that includes 'military' as a basic > definition anyway. > > > We have mappers in many countries, some of them do not speak English. I > think that any voting should contain translations to all languages used > in OSM (at least to those, that are use in osm-wiki Ideally YES, but at least if there is an English version of a proposal, it makes it a lot easier for other translations to be created as necessary. A 'free for all' on translations will just create a mess, but translating from a base of English at least means that any disagreement on the 'translation' is manageable. Translating pages through several other languages is only going to produce confusion when things get miss interpreted? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Military objects in RU: warning about status of voting
Alexandr Zeinalov wrote: >> On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 4:32 PM, Alexandr Zeinalov wrote: >>> Good day. >>> >>> You should know about flame war about military objects and government >>> secrets in Russian OSM community. And you should know that any voting >>> results may be considered as and only as recommendation, but not as >>> invariable law. >> At about 380 votes that's one active vote.. :-) I wonder if anyone of >> these people will register on the map page and map as well.. > > Only 105 users voted, not 380. But there was 5 different questions and > really 5 different votings. > > PS: Lots of them (who voted for untruth mapping for military) have real > contribution to OSM. Yeah, it's real, but it's extremely less than > contribution of opposition minority :) Of cause what is missing here is that since this 'vote' was only in Russian then the vast majority of us would not even be able to vote anyway. There should perhaps be a rule about needing all votes to carry an English translation, since the consensus IS that all tagging is carried out IN English. Getting changes to the main tagging pages would have to be in English anyway? So is there any validity to this vote anyway? The main definition of landuse should follow the international standards, and that includes 'military' as a basic definition anyway. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Military objects in RU: warning about status of voting
> On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 4:32 PM, Alexandr Zeinalov wrote: >> Good day. >> >> You should know about flame war about military objects and government >> secrets in Russian OSM community. And you should know that any voting >> results may be considered as and only as recommendation, but not as >> invariable law. > At about 380 votes that's one active vote.. :-) I wonder if anyone of > these people will register on the map page and map as well.. Only 105 users voted, not 380. But there was 5 different questions and really 5 different votings. PS: Lots of them (who voted for untruth mapping for military) have real contribution to OSM. Yeah, it's real, but it's extremely less than contribution of opposition minority :) > -- > /emj > WBR, Alexandr R. Zeinalov ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Military objects in RU: warning about status of voting
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 4:32 PM, Alexandr Zeinalov wrote: > Good day. > > You should know about flame war about military objects and government > secrets in Russian OSM community. And you should know that any voting > results may be considered as and only as recommendation, but not as > invariable law. At about 380 votes that's one active vote.. :-) I wonder if anyone of these people will register on the map page and map as well.. -- /emj ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Military objects in RU: warning about status of voting
Alex, Alexandr Zeinalov wrote: > Since that user Vctos http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Vctos > removed this warning 3 times with comment: "I deleted text about > applicability of voting results that added after RFC" (translation). I recommend to ignore it. If you insist that the Wiki site must have a comment about the fact that it is non-binding, you are already taking the Wiki too seriously. Let them vote if they want; it is not going to change anything. The outcome may serve as a basis for discussion but nothing more. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Military objects in RU: warning about status of voting
Good day. You should know about flame war about military objects and government secrets in Russian OSM community. And you should know that any voting results may be considered as and only as recommendation, but not as invariable law. At 2010-04-13 user Zkir http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Zkir added voting results followed with warning about formal status of this voting to avoid misunderstanding: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=RU:%D0%92%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%82_%D0%A0%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D1%8F/%D0%93%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F/%D0%9E%D0%B1%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%87%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F_%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8B%D1%85_%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%8A%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B2&diff=457650&oldid=457393 (translation) "This voting is only recommandation, it cannot give someone any rights to delete something. Deleteting of information that compatible with CC-BY-SA, verifiable and/or correspond to the facts is vandalism. E.g. http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2010-April/049600.html"; Since that user Vctos http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Vctos removed this warning 3 times with comment: "I deleted text about applicability of voting results that added after RFC" (translation). I expect that it will not stop his attempts, as he hasn't stopped it before now. I have no choice but need to ask help for support of somebody with more efficient tools than words of generic OSM participants. WBR, Alexandr R. Zeinalov ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
