Re: [OSM-talk] New technology ...
There is still one small problem with the redesign that maybe could be addressed: coordinates when sharing, e.g. from clicking on node coordinates in the history. When you check the edits of new users by looking at their changesets, sometimes you'll see nodes moved or deleted and want to check where they were. I used to click on the coordinates in the history and added a m in front of lat and long in order to show a pin. Now this was changed to the (better) way of doing stuff with the share-marker workflow, but the problem is that the marker won't show up on the coordinates that you clicked. The problem is apparently the sidebar, which reduces the width of the screen and so the marker gets placed more left than the original coordinates that you clicked. E.g. click on http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=41.9057293lon=12.4507422zoom=18 and then on share will create you this link: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=41.90573mlon=12.45007#map=18/41.90573/12.45007 (with my screen resolution). Besides the rounding of the coords to 5 digits you can see that the lon gets modified in the process (in the second example with zoom2 there was also a modification of the latitude). Obviously in lower zoom levels that is much more: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=2/0/0 becomes with the sidebar opening: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=-0.2mlon=-43.8#map=2/-0.2/-43.8 with the sidebar already open: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=0.2mlon=-0.2#map=2/0.2/-0.2 cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New technology ...
Kai Krueger wrote: I am not a fan of just changing things to make them prettier without adding functionality, or even less of the website hasn't changed in X years, we need to change things to make it modern either, but having multiple versions beyond what we already have is just likely not really feasible at the moment. There are imho more important things to fix or optimize. I think that this is perhaps the crux of the problem. One gets very used to doing things a certain way, and when they change it gets very annoying when something does not now work. I can give a good example in Linux ... the way the scroll bars work on the side of a window has been changed by ONE of the style library teams. A little like double click no longer doing what you expect! Clicking on the scroll bar now works differently FOR SOME APPS. Fortunately it is possible to switch the new functionality off but why the was it allowed to be switched on by default in the first place :( Another area of the the same scroll bar is the stepper buttons top and bottom. Some people think they are pointless, but when one is working with directories with thousands of files in, being able to shuffle a little bit fixes a problem. Again, I can select a theme from users with a like preference and the buttons appear. I don't have to live with someone else's preferences. Changing functionality, such as how double click works, needs to have a very good reason for doing it, but where buttons appear and what buttons appear is just a matter of personal taste! Currently on touch screen devices there is a conflict between using touch to zoom the map, and using touch to expand the function areas, or expand the note box to because it's too small. THIS functionality may be part of leaflet, so that is the development team we need to be interacting with, or maintain a port of that code which we can tailor to our requirements. I personally have no interest in 'rails', I work exclusively in PHP on production sites, so I don't want my hands tied because 'rails' has changed the way something works. Just while I've been typing this it has come to mind that perhaps what I personally am looking for is a better organised cooperation between the teams that are building the tools we use rather than what appears on a single view of the data? Leaflet is supposed to be a 'library of mobile-friendly interactive maps', but it's that which is causing my problems with osrm, yours and the other options I'm playing with. I was probably missing the point that it actually has nothing to do 'rails-dev' ... Everybody is off making a better 'widget' for their pet project and nobody is looking at the problem as a whole? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New technology ...
I don't have to live with someone else's preferences. On the internet, you have been. For years now, every single day. Everybody is off making a better 'widget' for their pet project and nobody is looking at the problem as a whole? You mean in OSM? Look at how much push-back we get on something like Map-UI - tens of angry comments about how X changed. Now imagine a much larger redesign. On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 4:03 AM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: Kai Krueger wrote: I am not a fan of just changing things to make them prettier without adding functionality, or even less of the website hasn't changed in X years, we need to change things to make it modern either, but having multiple versions beyond what we already have is just likely not really feasible at the moment. There are imho more important things to fix or optimize. I think that this is perhaps the crux of the problem. One gets very used to doing things a certain way, and when they change it gets very annoying when something does not now work. I can give a good example in Linux ... the way the scroll bars work on the side of a window has been changed by ONE of the style library teams. A little like double click no longer doing what you expect! Clicking on the scroll bar now works differently FOR SOME APPS. Fortunately it is possible to switch the new functionality off but why the was it allowed to be switched on by default in the first place :( Another area of the the same scroll bar is the stepper buttons top and bottom. Some people think they are pointless, but when one is working with directories with thousands of files in, being able to shuffle a little bit fixes a problem. Again, I can select a theme from users with a like preference and the buttons appear. I don't have to live with someone else's preferences. Changing functionality, such as how double click works, needs to have a very good reason for doing it, but where buttons appear and what buttons appear is just a matter of personal taste! Currently on touch screen devices there is a conflict between using touch to zoom the map, and using touch to expand the function areas, or expand the note box to because it's too small. THIS functionality may be part of leaflet, so that is the development team we need to be interacting with, or maintain a port of that code which we can tailor to our requirements. I personally have no interest in 'rails', I work exclusively in PHP on production sites, so I don't want my hands tied because 'rails' has changed the way something works. Just while I've been typing this it has come to mind that perhaps what I personally am looking for is a better organised cooperation between the teams that are building the tools we use rather than what appears on a single view of the data? Leaflet is supposed to be a 'library of mobile-friendly interactive maps', but it's that which is causing my problems with osrm, yours and the other options I'm playing with. I was probably missing the point that it actually has nothing to do 'rails-dev' ... Everybody is off making a better 'widget' for their pet project and nobody is looking at the problem as a whole? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=**contacthttp://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.**ukhttp://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk __**_ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/talkhttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New technology ...
Tom MacWright wrote: I don't have to live with someone else's preferences. On the internet, you have been. For years now, every single day. No - If I don't like something I don't use it ... that includes Google! Everybody is off making a better 'widget' for their pet project and nobody is looking at the problem as a whole? You mean in OSM? Look at how much push-back we get on something like Map-UI - tens of angry comments about how X changed. Now imagine a much larger redesign. There has be complaints about not publishing things or it being discussed on other lists. In reality some of these changes should have been discussed on the leaflet list? It's their changes that are being pushed on us? So a proper debate on opening up the field to provide access to tools tailored for their target audience seems logical. The 'slippy map' is only addressing a small user area, and better publication of the alternatives would seem sensible. Perhaps we ACTUALLY need a map style selector on the front page rather than a single link to a particular map tool? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New technology ...
On 22/lug/2013, at 14:41, Tom MacWright t...@macwright.org wrote: You mean in OSM? Look at how much push-back we get on something like Map-UI - tens of angry comments about how X changed. Now imagine a much larger redesign. was that really so much? In my perception it was very few (if any, less than 3) who were generally against it, the rest were kind of bug reports, unfortunately not always setting the right tone. btw: great redesign, the marker function is a heavily requested feature for years. maybe there is a way to integrate a kind of scale indicator? On mobile safari it works nicely but the links from the left column are missing (like before this update), namely there should be a link to the wiki and license page, maybe also the rest. Maybe this could be inside the i tab before the map key? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New technology ...
was that really so much? In my perception it was very few (if any, less than 3) who were generally against it, the rest were kind of bug reports, unfortunately not always setting the right tone. 52 messages in the 'Upgraded map controls' thread, 13 in this one, 12 in the one split off of this one, 39 comments on the pull request. Around 116 messages in total, though that's only the English count and I'm sure that there's something on talk-de. On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 9:29 AM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: Tom MacWright wrote: I don't have to live with someone else's preferences. On the internet, you have been. For years now, every single day. No - If I don't like something I don't use it ... that includes Google! Everybody is off making a better 'widget' for their pet project and nobody is looking at the problem as a whole? You mean in OSM? Look at how much push-back we get on something like Map-UI - tens of angry comments about how X changed. Now imagine a much larger redesign. There has be complaints about not publishing things or it being discussed on other lists. In reality some of these changes should have been discussed on the leaflet list? It's their changes that are being pushed on us? So a proper debate on opening up the field to provide access to tools tailored for their target audience seems logical. The 'slippy map' is only addressing a small user area, and better publication of the alternatives would seem sensible. Perhaps we ACTUALLY need a map style selector on the front page rather than a single link to a particular map tool? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=**contacthttp://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.**ukhttp://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk __**_ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/talkhttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New technology ...
Tom MacWright wrote: 52 messages in the 'Upgraded map controls' thread, 13 in this one, 12 in the one split off of this one, 39 comments on the pull request. Around 116 messages in total, though that's only the English count and I'm sure that there's something on talk-de. Tom will you PLEASE stop posting reams of quotes that are unrelated to your comments. THAT is creating a very fragmented discussion. I can't even see how you've included my text in Martin's reply! He hadn't! It would be nice to get a better handle on the user land view of things, and many people are probably happy, but others will probably simply migrate to the other viewers anyway and we have no idea what the real situation is. Certainly switching between the current map and 'yours' for routing now grates ... that is the reason about my comments on the 'whole' picture ... I HAD been using the slippy map for location pages and then switching to a router for directions - now the two are so different that I need to rethink! That is the problem that this latest change has brought about, and I was unaware it was about to happen :( -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New technology ...
I agree with Martin that this is a great redesign. And we should see positively that so many people react to these redesigns. And let's hope we can have more positive / constructive discussions among contributors and developers. I understand that we should accept that some redesigns will affect the way we are doing things. At the same time, we have to think how people, sometimes less experimented, may use the OSM map for various usages. I might be a bit late since I was not there to propose modifications a few weeks ago. But still... The Share panel who replace the Permalink, is useful to communicate to others various informations. For example, it could be a store or a tourist bureau that wants to provide simply geolocated information. Also we often see OSM contributors exchanging links to discuss about various aspects of the OSM map. I propose below minor modifications to the Share panel that to my point of view would provide more flexibility to take account of the various usages. In this proposal, the Include marker appears only once and is used for both url links and Embedded HTML. And there is the possibility to add a descriptive about the marker. Share Include marker Center page at the marker location Marker description * Long Link * Short Link Embeddable HTML Pierre De : Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com À : Tom MacWright t...@macwright.org Cc : OSM Talk talk@openstreetmap.org Envoyéle : Lundi 22 juillet 2013 9h27 Objet : Re: [OSM-talk] New technology ... On 22/lug/2013, at 14:41, Tom MacWright t...@macwright.org wrote: You mean in OSM? Look at how much push-back we get on something like Map-UI - tens of angry comments about how X changed. Now imagine a much larger redesign. was that really so much? In my perception it was very few (if any, less than 3) who were generally against it, the rest were kind of bug reports, unfortunately not always setting the right tone. btw: great redesign, the marker function is a heavily requested feature for years. maybe there is a way to integrate a kind of scale indicator? On mobile safari it works nicely but the links from the left column are missing (like before this update), namely there should be a link to the wiki and license page, maybe also the rest. Maybe this could be inside the i tab before the map key? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New technology ...
With the arrival of a 'new' set of controls, and the discussion on front page, I feel that it IS necessary to open this discussion a little wider. Having been using the new interface on mobile devices I find it much less usable than the older set-up. But that is not to say that the old one was actually usable! A dry and very specific review of what problems on mobile in particular you encounter with the new map UI would be useful. The new map UI works actually pretty nicely on my iPhone, but I haven't done extensive testing. On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 10:12 AM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: Tom MacWright wrote: 52 messages in the 'Upgraded map controls' thread, 13 in this one, 12 in the one split off of this one, 39 comments on the pull request. Around 116 messages in total, though that's only the English count and I'm sure that there's something on talk-de. Tom will you PLEASE stop posting reams of quotes that are unrelated to your comments. THAT is creating a very fragmented discussion. I can't even see how you've included my text in Martin's reply! He hadn't! It would be nice to get a better handle on the user land view of things, and many people are probably happy, but others will probably simply migrate to the other viewers anyway and we have no idea what the real situation is. Certainly switching between the current map and 'yours' for routing now grates ... that is the reason about my comments on the 'whole' picture ... I HAD been using the slippy map for location pages and then switching to a router for directions - now the two are so different that I need to rethink! That is the problem that this latest change has brought about, and I was unaware it was about to happen :( -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=**contacthttp://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.**ukhttp://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk __**_ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/talkhttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] New technology ...
With the arrival of a 'new' set of controls, and the discussion on front page, I feel that it IS necessary to open this discussion a little wider. Having been using the new interface on mobile devices I find it much less usable than the older set-up. But that is not to say that the old one was actually usable! There is a need for a different map interface that works better with mobile devices. Even the routing demos have mixed results on tablets and mobile phones. I've been working on my own 'front end' simply to provide one that I can tailor for the devices I am using. The old N900 used to work well, but the newer devices are difficult to use 'on the go'. As an example, the old TomTom sat nav was easy to use while driving, but the current replacements I've tried to use with the Galaxy4 can be dangerous at times as they wander off doing their own thing, and you have to stop to get back to a state where you can continue following the route. It's obvious that the new map interface is not designed for mobile devices, so where should we discuss that development and how it would fit in with an improved front end. It's not just a matter of directing to 'a map' but more important is directing to safe options for those of us who ARE using the tools every day. The current options are both difficult to find, and have clear information on how safe they are when using them live! Disclaimers of accepting no responsibility may cover any legal liability, but essentially say 'here is a tool - but you should never use it!' And discussion on a more open platform would also be appreciated rather than on development platforms that we do not subscribe to because we use different development tools! -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New technology ...
Hey Lester, I agree entirely - thus far we aren't focusing on the mobile version of the site. It's never been very polished, and recent changes aren't focused on improving it significantly. As far as why, it's pretty simple - changes to the site are extremely time-intensive because of its myriad uses and the necessity of having a community process. That is, we've needed to focus on specific parts of the site because, even if we agree that many things need to be done, we only have enough designers developers to implement one or two things a month. I think there are two solid ways forward here: First, which is admittedly less likely, is if anyone wants to adopt the task of maintaining, testing, and improving the mobile site, and pushing those changes through. Second, which is more doable but more likely to get over-communicated, is for someone to write a simple page pointing to good mobile options. For instance, users of GPS units should easily find out about Garmin extracts, smartphone users should easily find editors that work on their phone or apps that use OpenStreetMap data. Independent OSM-based tools do a better job at the very specific use-cases people have on mobile - whereas the website focuses strongly on one use case, editing, and has no smartphone-compatible editors. (To tackle the inevitable points of argument that follow that: yes, there are things that do this, but we need to do better. No, there's no committee to decide and yes the best way to do it is to do it, even if it's very low-tech.) Tom On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 11:26 AM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: With the arrival of a 'new' set of controls, and the discussion on front page, I feel that it IS necessary to open this discussion a little wider. Having been using the new interface on mobile devices I find it much less usable than the older set-up. But that is not to say that the old one was actually usable! There is a need for a different map interface that works better with mobile devices. Even the routing demos have mixed results on tablets and mobile phones. I've been working on my own 'front end' simply to provide one that I can tailor for the devices I am using. The old N900 used to work well, but the newer devices are difficult to use 'on the go'. As an example, the old TomTom sat nav was easy to use while driving, but the current replacements I've tried to use with the Galaxy4 can be dangerous at times as they wander off doing their own thing, and you have to stop to get back to a state where you can continue following the route. It's obvious that the new map interface is not designed for mobile devices, so where should we discuss that development and how it would fit in with an improved front end. It's not just a matter of directing to 'a map' but more important is directing to safe options for those of us who ARE using the tools every day. The current options are both difficult to find, and have clear information on how safe they are when using them live! Disclaimers of accepting no responsibility may cover any legal liability, but essentially say 'here is a tool - but you should never use it!' And discussion on a more open platform would also be appreciated rather than on development platforms that we do not subscribe to because we use different development tools! -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=**contacthttp://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.**ukhttp://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk __**_ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/talkhttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New technology ...
Tom MacWright wrote: Hey Lester, I agree entirely - thus far we aren't focusing on the mobile version of the site. It's never been very polished, and recent changes aren't focused on improving it significantly. As far as why, it's pretty simple - changes to the site are extremely time-intensive because of its myriad uses and the necessity of having a community process. That is, we've needed to focus on specific parts of the site because, even if we agree that many things need to be done, we only have enough designers developers to implement one or two things a month. And some of us are hampered by the choose of tools that was made previously! I think there are two solid ways forward here: First, which is admittedly less likely, is if anyone wants to adopt the task of maintaining, testing, and improving the mobile site, and pushing those changes through. There are a few options as a good starting point, but your 'third' point is probably accurate here. Second, which is more doable but more likely to get over-communicated, is for someone to write a simple page pointing to good mobile options. For instance, users of GPS units should easily find out about Garmin extracts, smartphone users should easily find editors that work on their phone or apps that use OpenStreetMap data. http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/Mobile+Computing :) But I'm getting bogged down by what does not work in each of the options and I don't have time to try the options that are missing. I need to switch from Locus to one of the other options just to establish where the identified safety issues actually arise from! If you can't trust a configuration then it's unusable, and that is part of the current problem. Independent OSM-based tools do a better job at the very specific use-cases people have on mobile - whereas the website focuses strongly on one use case, editing, and has no smartphone-compatible editors. Adding data via the tablet is easier than actually using it on the tablet ... (To tackle the inevitable points of argument that follow that: yes, there are things that do this, but we need to do better. No, there's no committee to decide and yes the best way to do it is to do it, even if it's very low-tech.) We need well documented user reports on the available tools rather than just 'choose the option that works for you' ... I have yet to find a routing package that gives SAFE directions on UK motorways! This was the whole reason for my closer investigation. Tom On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 11:26 AM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk mailto:les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: With the arrival of a 'new' set of controls, and the discussion on front page, I feel that it IS necessary to open this discussion a little wider. Having been using the new interface on mobile devices I find it much less usable than the older set-up. But that is not to say that the old one was actually usable! There is a need for a different map interface that works better with mobile devices. Even the routing demos have mixed results on tablets and mobile phones. I've been working on my own 'front end' simply to provide one that I can tailor for the devices I am using. The old N900 used to work well, but the newer devices are difficult to use 'on the go'. As an example, the old TomTom sat nav was easy to use while driving, but the current replacements I've tried to use with the Galaxy4 can be dangerous at times as they wander off doing their own thing, and you have to stop to get back to a state where you can continue following the route. It's obvious that the new map interface is not designed for mobile devices, so where should we discuss that development and how it would fit in with an improved front end. It's not just a matter of directing to 'a map' but more important is directing to safe options for those of us who ARE using the tools every day. The current options are both difficult to find, and have clear information on how safe they are when using them live! Disclaimers of accepting no responsibility may cover any legal liability, but essentially say 'here is a tool - but you should never use it!' And discussion on a more open platform would also be appreciated rather than on development platforms that we do not subscribe to because we use different development tools! -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New technology ...
Hi Lester, The most productive way to lead to better routing on OSM is to find 'bad' routes, generate permalinks on OSRM or your favorite tool, and post bug reports, including what the desired route would be and what's incorrect about the incorrect route. For OSRM in particular the bug tracker is here: https://github.com/DennisOSRM/Project-OSRM/issues and you can click 'Generate Link' on the testing instance: http://map.project-osrm.org/ in order to send a specific route around. Tom On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 12:02 PM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: Tom MacWright wrote: Hey Lester, I agree entirely - thus far we aren't focusing on the mobile version of the site. It's never been very polished, and recent changes aren't focused on improving it significantly. As far as why, it's pretty simple - changes to the site are extremely time-intensive because of its myriad uses and the necessity of having a community process. That is, we've needed to focus on specific parts of the site because, even if we agree that many things need to be done, we only have enough designers developers to implement one or two things a month. And some of us are hampered by the choose of tools that was made previously! I think there are two solid ways forward here: First, which is admittedly less likely, is if anyone wants to adopt the task of maintaining, testing, and improving the mobile site, and pushing those changes through. There are a few options as a good starting point, but your 'third' point is probably accurate here. Second, which is more doable but more likely to get over-communicated, is for someone to write a simple page pointing to good mobile options. For instance, users of GPS units should easily find out about Garmin extracts, smartphone users should easily find editors that work on their phone or apps that use OpenStreetMap data. http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/**Mobile+Computinghttp://lsces.co.uk/wiki/Mobile+Computing:) But I'm getting bogged down by what does not work in each of the options and I don't have time to try the options that are missing. I need to switch from Locus to one of the other options just to establish where the identified safety issues actually arise from! If you can't trust a configuration then it's unusable, and that is part of the current problem. Independent OSM-based tools do a better job at the very specific use-cases people have on mobile - whereas the website focuses strongly on one use case, editing, and has no smartphone-compatible editors. Adding data via the tablet is easier than actually using it on the tablet ... (To tackle the inevitable points of argument that follow that: yes, there are things that do this, but we need to do better. No, there's no committee to decide and yes the best way to do it is to do it, even if it's very low-tech.) We need well documented user reports on the available tools rather than just 'choose the option that works for you' ... I have yet to find a routing package that gives SAFE directions on UK motorways! This was the whole reason for my closer investigation. Tom On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 11:26 AM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk mailto:les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: With the arrival of a 'new' set of controls, and the discussion on front page, I feel that it IS necessary to open this discussion a little wider. Having been using the new interface on mobile devices I find it much less usable than the older set-up. But that is not to say that the old one was actually usable! There is a need for a different map interface that works better with mobile devices. Even the routing demos have mixed results on tablets and mobile phones. I've been working on my own 'front end' simply to provide one that I can tailor for the devices I am using. The old N900 used to work well, but the newer devices are difficult to use 'on the go'. As an example, the old TomTom sat nav was easy to use while driving, but the current replacements I've tried to use with the Galaxy4 can be dangerous at times as they wander off doing their own thing, and you have to stop to get back to a state where you can continue following the route. It's obvious that the new map interface is not designed for mobile devices, so where should we discuss that development and how it would fit in with an improved front end. It's not just a matter of directing to 'a map' but more important is directing to safe options for those of us who ARE using the tools every day. The current options are both difficult to find, and have clear information on how safe they are when using them live! Disclaimers of accepting no responsibility may cover any legal liability, but essentially say 'here is a tool - but you should never use it!' And discussion on a more open platform would also be appreciated rather than
Re: [OSM-talk] New technology ...
The problem is more fundamental than just bad routes, but I suspect Locus is part of the problem as all 4 routers have the same problem. Routing instructions through any junction with link_xxx gives a 'straight on' rather than advising to take the slip road. None of the posts to the relevant list have been answred! While the generated instructions give better information, the lack of 'lane' information is the follow on that is also important. A standard for this interchange would also help ... Sent from my android device. -Original Message- From: Tom MacWright t...@macwright.org To: Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk Cc: openstreetmap talk@openstreetmap.org Sent: Sun, 21 Jul 2013 17:19 Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] New technology ... Hi Lester, The most productive way to lead to better routing on OSM is to find 'bad' routes, generate permalinks on OSRM or your favorite tool, and post bug reports, including what the desired route would be and what's incorrect about the incorrect route. For OSRM in particular the bug tracker is here: https://github.com/DennisOSRM/Project-OSRM/issues and you can click 'Generate Link' on the testing instance: http://map.project-osrm.org/ in order to send a specific route around. Tom On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 12:02 PM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: Tom MacWright wrote: Hey Lester, I agree entirely - thus far we aren't focusing on the mobile version of the site. It's never been very polished, and recent changes aren't focused on improving it significantly. As far as why, it's pretty simple - changes to the site are extremely time-intensive because of its myriad uses and the necessity of having a community process. That is, we've needed to focus on specific parts of the site because, even if we agree that many things need to be done, we only have enough designers developers to implement one or two things a month. And some of us are hampered by the choose of tools that was made previously! I think there are two solid ways forward here: First, which is admittedly less likely, is if anyone wants to adopt the task of maintaining, testing, and improving the mobile site, and pushing those changes through. There are a few options as a good starting point, but your 'third' point is probably accurate here. Second, which is more doable but more likely to get over-communicated, is for someone to write a simple page pointing to good mobile options. For instance, users of GPS units should easily find out about Garmin extracts, smartphone users should easily find editors that work on their phone or apps that use OpenStreetMap data. http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/**Mobile+Computinghttp://lsces.co.uk/wiki/Mobile+Computing:) But I'm getting bogged down by what does not work in each of the options and I don't have time to try the options that are missing. I need to switch from Locus to one of the other options just to establish where the identified safety issues actually arise from! If you can't trust a configuration then it's unusable, and that is part of the current problem. Independent OSM-based tools do a better job at the very specific use-cases people have on mobile - whereas the website focuses strongly on one use case, editing, and has no smartphone-compatible editors. Adding data via the tablet is easier than actually using it on the tablet ... (To tackle the inevitable points of argument that follow that: yes, there are things that do this, but we need to do better. No, there's no committee to decide and yes the best way to do it is to do it, even if it's very low-tech.) We need well documented user reports on the available tools rather than just 'choose the option that works for you' ... I have yet to find a routing package that gives SAFE directions on UK motorways! This was the whole reason for my closer investigation. Tom On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 11:26 AM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk mailto:les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: With the arrival of a 'new' set of controls, and the discussion on front page, I feel that it IS necessary to open this discussion a little wider. Having been using the new interface on mobile devices I find it much less usable than the older set-up. But that is not to say that the old one was actually usable! There is a need for a different map interface that works better with mobile devices. Even the routing demos have mixed results on tablets and mobile phones. I've been working on my own 'front end' simply to provide one that I can tailor for the devices I am using. The old N900 used to work well, but the newer devices are difficult to use 'on the go'. As an example, the old TomTom sat nav was easy to use while driving, but the current replacements I've tried to use with the Galaxy4 can be dangerous at times as they wander off doing their own thing, and you have to stop to get back to a state
Re: [OSM-talk] New technology ...
lsces wrote With the arrival of a 'new' set of controls, and the discussion on front page, I feel that it IS necessary to open this discussion a little wider. Having been using the new interface on mobile devices I find it much less usable than the older set-up. But that is not to say that the old one was actually usable! As always this is somewhat subjective. Whereas on the desktop, I don't yet see much of an advantage* other than that it is prettier, I think it has somewhat improved the usage on a mobile phone. The larger + - buttons make them more touch friendly (pinch to zoom is very erratic and often doesn't work at all for me) and the new geolocation functionality is a pretty neat feature particularly for mobile use! The notes functionality, which can be useful on a mobile, could probably do with some improvements (the bubbles are to big to fit on a 5 screen properly), but overall are usable. iD pretty much doesn't work at all on a phone, but then editing on a 4 touch screen or on a 24 monitor with mouse and keyboard really are two very different beasts and can't really be used in the same design. There you simply want separate special purpose apps like Vespucci. One question would therefore be, what functionality of osm.org would you hope to actually be able to use on a mobile phone? Browsing the map and adding / checking bugs seem like the most likely candidates. Imho, those work reasonably well with the new design and can probably be fixed up with some specific minor tweaks. For sat-navs and more sophisticated map applications there are a bunch of special purpose apps, some of which work quite well already. Kai * Once the improvements of the share menu go in, that should change and actually add real functionality to the map, which I am looking forward to. -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/New-technology-tp5770731p5770762.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New technology ...
For what it's worth, for those who want to use the Notes facility of OSM remotely, I've worked on a predictably open source https://github.com/osmlab/osm-note boringly named project called OSM Note, that you can open on your phone like so http://osmlab.github.io/osm-note/and place notes, log in, and so on. On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 3:55 PM, Kai Krueger kakrue...@gmail.com wrote: lsces wrote With the arrival of a 'new' set of controls, and the discussion on front page, I feel that it IS necessary to open this discussion a little wider. Having been using the new interface on mobile devices I find it much less usable than the older set-up. But that is not to say that the old one was actually usable! As always this is somewhat subjective. Whereas on the desktop, I don't yet see much of an advantage* other than that it is prettier, I think it has somewhat improved the usage on a mobile phone. The larger + - buttons make them more touch friendly (pinch to zoom is very erratic and often doesn't work at all for me) and the new geolocation functionality is a pretty neat feature particularly for mobile use! The notes functionality, which can be useful on a mobile, could probably do with some improvements (the bubbles are to big to fit on a 5 screen properly), but overall are usable. iD pretty much doesn't work at all on a phone, but then editing on a 4 touch screen or on a 24 monitor with mouse and keyboard really are two very different beasts and can't really be used in the same design. There you simply want separate special purpose apps like Vespucci. One question would therefore be, what functionality of osm.org would you hope to actually be able to use on a mobile phone? Browsing the map and adding / checking bugs seem like the most likely candidates. Imho, those work reasonably well with the new design and can probably be fixed up with some specific minor tweaks. For sat-navs and more sophisticated map applications there are a bunch of special purpose apps, some of which work quite well already. Kai * Once the improvements of the share menu go in, that should change and actually add real functionality to the map, which I am looking forward to. -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/New-technology-tp5770731p5770762.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New technology ...
lsces wrote The problem is more fundamental than just bad routes, but I suspect Locus is part of the problem as all 4 routers have the same problem. Routing instructions through any junction with link_xxx gives a 'straight on' rather than advising to take the slip road. None of the posts to the relevant list have been answred! OK, this goes so much beyond the change of a few controls on the website, or any website UI design. It really should be an entirely different topic, as this has nothing to do with usability, but goes at the hart of the core data-model and its applicability to turn-by-turn navigation. lsces wrote While the generated instructions give better information, the lack of 'lane' information is the follow on that is also important. A standard for this interchange would also help ... There are proposals for lane tagging lanes http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Lane; and http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:turn;. There are even mobile apps that already use this information where available to provide lane assist. MapFactor Free being one of them (http://forum.mapfactor.com/discussion/435/how-to-make-turn-lanes-in-osm-appear-in-mapfactor-free/p1 ), I think OSMAnd also supports this. The problem is that there are so far only few roads mapped with this information But as with any tagging schema, it is really up to the mappers and data users to come up with good proposals that work for both and standardize them. I am hoping that eventually routing will become part of the main site, to help guide and improve the whole routing situation and incentivize mappers to really map the necessary information in a way that is processable by a routing engine. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/New-technology-tp5770731p5770766.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New technology ... Routing instructions
Kai Krueger wrote: lsces wrote The problem is more fundamental than just bad routes, but I suspect Locus is part of the problem as all 4 routers have the same problem. Routing instructions through any junction with link_xxx gives a 'straight on' rather than advising to take the slip road. None of the posts to the relevant list have been answred! OK, this goes so much beyond the change of a few controls on the website, or any website UI design. It really should be an entirely different topic, as this has nothing to do with usability, but goes at the hart of the core data-model and its applicability to turn-by-turn navigation. It is a new topic? That's why I started a new thread ... but this is a slight sideline off the usability problem of the map itself on mobile devices, so changed the subject. It is all bundled with mobile use of the map data though. lsces wrote While the generated instructions give better information, the lack of 'lane' information is the follow on that is also important. A standard for this interchange would also help ... There are proposals for lane tagging lanes http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Lane; and http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:turn;. There are even mobile apps that already use this information where available to provide lane assist. MapFactor Free being one of them (http://forum.mapfactor.com/discussion/435/how-to-make-turn-lanes-in-osm-appear-in-mapfactor-free/p1 ), I think OSMAnd also supports this. The problem is that there are so far only few roads mapped with this information I was rush this on the move ... The interchange *I* was talking about was the level above, and related to how a routing engine presents the list of directions that go with a track. The slip road for a roundabout gets described several ways between the different engines, and none is ideal for generating the correct basic move instructions. THEN you add improved instructions by including the appropriate lane and other road layout details? Currently I'm getting 'straight on' for the slip road when at the very least it should be 'take the slip road'? If I'm not careful I've passed the slip road before I get the 'take the first exit' ! But as with any tagging schema, it is really up to the mappers and data users to come up with good proposals that work for both and standardize them. I am hoping that eventually routing will become part of the main site, to help guide and improve the whole routing situation and incentivize mappers to really map the necessary information in a way that is processable by a routing engine. I have come to the conclusion that while it would perhaps be nice to have a routing engine accessible from the map, there is even more reason to have a number of routers each with their own optimised way of working. Once one gets to routing, one size will never fit all, and may well be very much location driven. The four routing engines I'm currently comparing all give different advantages and disadvantages ... as well as quite regularly different routes for the same journey. Which is why I'm looking into running my own engine which I can tailor to my preferred 'short cuts' ... -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New technology ...
Kai Krueger wrote: One question would therefore be, what functionality of osm.org would you hope to actually be able to use on a mobile phone? Browsing the map to see if an alternate route might be better. Not knowing where one is scale wise, the old scale bar provides an easy and quick to read and one can judge if you need to zoom out a lot or a little. But basic functions for using the map need to be simple. Currently I'm only seeing the top 4 new right hand buttons, and I can't read the scale at all which is why I've reverted to my own viewer, but the main thing here is that you CAN'T use multiple fingers while driving! So the viewing arrangement I'm looking at - from a SAFETY point of view - is one that can be controlled just by prodding with one finger. Eliminating anything 'fancy' since it is just not practical to use? Even the tomtom's latest 'upgrades' lost the plot and made using the unit a problem and I know I was not the only one to roll back to the 'safe' version! Trying to press a shift or control key is also not practical ... Locus has a number of actions that make use impractical once moving. Note that I'm not saying that the main map should change - this is mobile technology use, but personally I WOULD like to have the option to select the old style layout. It's not fundamental to how the map works - it's only a style sheet, and we could have several - including mobile centric ones? What rattles my cage is when someone else changes things that I'm naturally used to when there is no need to FORCE me to change - just put an option to select in! -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New technology ...
lsces wrote Kai Krueger wrote: One question would therefore be, what functionality of osm.org would you hope to actually be able to use on a mobile phone? Browsing the map to see if an alternate route might be better. Not knowing where one is scale wise, the old scale bar provides an easy and quick to read and one can judge if you need to zoom out a lot or a little. But basic functions for using the map need to be simple. On Firefox for android, Android stock browser and Chrome for Android I see the scale bar clearly at the bottom that tells me much better what the scale is than the zoom scale bar. Opera for Android partially obscures the scale bar with the lower menu. If you don't see the scale bar on your phone, then that probably is a bug somewhere and should be fixed. lsces wrote Currently I'm only seeing the top 4 new right hand buttons, and I can't read the scale at all which is why I've reverted to my own viewer, but the main thing here is that you CAN'T use multiple fingers while driving! So the viewing arrangement I'm looking at - from a SAFETY point of view - is one that can be controlled just by prodding with one finger. Osm.org is not designed to be used while driving and you really shouldn't be using it while driving, as you quite rightfully state it is not safe to use. The cartography of the OSM.org tiles are also not in anyway appropriate for reading the map while driving. I mean you wouldn't stick a paper map on your windscreen either and try and use it to navigate as a driver? If you are trying to use it for driving (as a driver), use one of the sat-nav apps like OsmAnd, Mapfactor Free, NavMII free, Skobbler, or the various other options that exist for android and other mobile platforms. If those apps give you wrong directions and you need to find your own alternative route, then you will have to pull to the side and stop while re-orienting, or give the phone to a passenger that has hands free and can direct you. This is not (and will never be) the job of osm.org and so it imho isn't a valid use case to optimize the UI of osm.org for. It is probably not even legal to operate your phone this way while driving. lsces wrote Note that I'm not saying that the main map should change - this is mobile technology use, but personally I WOULD like to have the option to select the old style layout. It's not fundamental to how the map works - it's only a style sheet, and we could have several - including mobile centric ones? It is quite a lot of work to keep multiple options working, tested and in sync. As there is a shortage of developers for the main website already anyway and one needs to prioritize what can be achieved, this seems rather low on the priority list. Perhaps in the future someone will submit a patch to implement something like Wikipedia's user styles which might solve some of your issues. Well, actually, there are already different styles as part of the CSS for mobile and printers to optimize for different viewing patterns. I am not a fan of just changing things to make them prettier without adding functionality, or even less of the website hasn't changed in X years, we need to change things to make it modern either, but having multiple versions beyond what we already have is just likely not really feasible at the moment. There are imho more important things to fix or optimize. Kai -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/New-technology-tp5770731p5770783.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
