Re: [OSM-talk] Walking Routes - wiki needs some work?
Hi The whole question of relation:type=route is a bit confused both in the wiki and in practice - with the inevitable result that I am probably not the only one who has adopted my own compromise conventions! For me, the most important thing is that we extend, so far as is reasonably possible, the concept of using a relation for a route! This gets around the multiple problems associated with a walker tagging a way as a footway and a cyclist tagging the same way as a cycleway and a rider tagging it as a bridleway! Let's at least agree to use relations for routes and keep the use of tags as a means of describing which means of transport are either physically capable of using, or legally allowed to use, a particular way. No information is lost by adopting this principle - and it allows much more description of a way so that it can be rendered either on the general map or on specialist maps for walkers, cyclists, etc. The question of route network type is indeed just as confused, as Robert points out. Personally, I would deprecate uk_ldp (what's so special about the UK??) and stick to the internationalised convention of iwn/nwn/rwn/lwn. Using both systems is doubly confusing, as it is all too easy to think that the 'L' ins uk_ldp means 'local' (i.e. not long distance!) or the 'l' in lwn means 'long distance'! I would prefer to avoid, where possible, ending up with a tagging convention that was peculiar to the UK - although the nature of English public rights of way law - being internationally unique - does suggest the need for some specialised tagging. We already have the problem that the wiki http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/UK_public_rights_of_way suggests, for example, foot=yes for a 'UK' (should really be England and Wales) public footpath - and I have followed this - but shouldn't it really be foot=designated? With foot=yes left to describe what 'can' be done rather than what 'may' (legally) be done? The next issue is how to define iwn/nwn/rwn/lwn - although I suspect that a fairly pragmatic approach will emerge. A related issue is whether and when to add these routes to the listings on the dedicated wiki pages e.g. for UK walking and cycling routes. I am adding walking routes to http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_United_Kingdom_Long_Distance_ Paths but there is an obvious issue as to what to include - I am tending to exclude 'lwn' and add the rest until someone shouts at me. So far as cycling routes are concerned on http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_United_Kingdom_National_Cycle _Network, I have desisted from adding routes since having my wrist slapped for adding a cycling route that was not part of the national cycle network (which is a fair enough comment, given the name of the page even though it includes rcn's as well as ncn's). I can see the line has to be drawn somewhere! But is there / should there be a listing of other cycle routes somewhere? This is all a bit specialised - but it does become of increasing importance as mappers in well-mapped areas begin to move from mapping roads to mapping off-road ways. How do those of you more experienced than I think it best to carry this discussion forward? Mike Harris -Original Message- From: Robert Vollmert [mailto:rvollmert-li...@gmx.net] Sent: 20 February 2009 11:25 To: Ed Loach Cc: osm Openstreetmap Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Walking Routes - wiki needs some work? On Feb 20, 2009, at 11:14, Ed Loach wrote: > In the wiki, Relation:route[1] suggests network of uk_ldp for the UK > long distance path network, but Walking_Routes[2] suggests > iwn/nwn/rwn/lwn for network types. It looks like the uk_ldp goes back > over a year to October 2007, so there are probably a number of these > already in existence. The contradiction between the two pages has also > led to a relation I created based on the Walking_Routes page being > amended to that on the Relation:Route one (which is understandable if > people are already used to the Relation:Route definitions). > > I don’t know how to find out how many relations already exist tagged > with network=uk_ldp - perhaps someone could find out? And perhaps > someone could decide what to do about the wiki contradictions. Also on > the Relation:route page the Cambridge citibus network is still > mentioned in the network description, but the value in the network > column has been removed (browsing the page history). If you follow the tagwatch links from Relation:route, you can get at the numbers. network GB Europe uk_ldp 21 21 lwn 1 191 rwn 4 354 nwn 0 22 iwn 0 0 Cheers Robert ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Walking Routes - wiki needs some work?
On Feb 20, 2009, at 11:14, Ed Loach wrote: > In the wiki, Relation:route[1] suggests network of uk_ldp for the UK > long distance path network, but Walking_Routes[2] suggests > iwn/nwn/rwn/lwn for network types. It looks like the uk_ldp goes > back over a year to October 2007, so there are probably a number of > these already in existence. The contradiction between the two pages > has also led to a relation I created based on the Walking_Routes > page being amended to that on the Relation:Route one (which is > understandable if people are already used to the Relation:Route > definitions). > > I don’t know how to find out how many relations already exist tagged > with network=uk_ldp - perhaps someone could find out? And perhaps > someone could decide what to do about the wiki contradictions. Also > on the Relation:route page the Cambridge citibus network is still > mentioned in the network description, but the value in the network > column has been removed (browsing the page history). If you follow the tagwatch links from Relation:route, you can get at the numbers. network GB Europe uk_ldp 21 21 lwn 1 191 rwn 4 354 nwn 0 22 iwn 0 0 Cheers Robert ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Walking Routes - wiki needs some work?
> I suspect 2009 will see the emergence of proper OSM > walking/hiking maps so > its time we got our act together. > > Please pull the page apart and add new stuff. Ideally try to > keep content > and ideas in the same sort of format as the Cycle Route ones so > that we have > some synergy and we don't have to reinvent the wheel yet again A bit of a late reply. In the wiki, Relation:route[1] suggests network of uk_ldp for the UK long distance path network, but Walking_Routes[2] suggests iwn/nwn/rwn/lwn for network types. It looks like the uk_ldp goes back over a year to October 2007, so there are probably a number of these already in existence. The contradiction between the two pages has also led to a relation I created based on the Walking_Routes page being amended to that on the Relation:Route one (which is understandable if people are already used to the Relation:Route definitions). I don’t know how to find out how many relations already exist tagged with network=uk_ldp - perhaps someone could find out? And perhaps someone could decide what to do about the wiki contradictions. Also on the Relation:route page the Cambridge citibus network is still mentioned in the network description, but the value in the network column has been removed (browsing the page history). Ed [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:route [2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Walking_Routes ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Walking Routes - wiki needs some work?
I don't think that the Pennine Bridleway is complete yet (they haven't decided where the northern part of the route will go). Where I have seen it signposted (from Derbyshire up towards Lancs) it seems to go in the same direction is the Pennine Way but runs on mostly separate bridleways. These don't tend to go over the tops of hills but round the side (as you'd expect, I suppose). It starts from much further south than the Pennine Way (it runs on roads parallel with the Limestone Way north of the Monsal Trail and I think uses a bit of that (one of the old railways, anyway). The National Trail website claims that there's a map here: http://www.nationaltrail.co.uk/penninebridleway/admin/sites.asp?PageId=30 but it's asleep at the moment (oops). ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Walking Routes - wiki needs some work?
Frankie Roberto wrote: > There also seems to be the Pennine Cycleway > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennine_Cycleway), which I've > never seen signposted. It's Sustrans National Route 68, the whole of which (well, except for two alternative braids) is lovingly mapped on OSM, from Derby to Berwick-on-Tweed... because I cycled it last year. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Walking-Routes---wiki-needs-some-work--tp21540248p21565716.html Sent from the OpenStreetMap - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Walking Routes - wiki needs some work?
On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 5:24 PM, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) < ajrli...@googlemail.com> wrote: > A relation should quite happily hold all of the bits and pieces for the > Pennine Bridleway, it wouldn't really be doing its intended job if it > didn't. I've already done most of the Pennine Way as a relation. For the most part it was pretty easy, as most of the component ways were tagged with name=Pennine Way. The Pennine Bridleway seems to most be the same as the Pennine Way, except for a few bits where they run side-by-side. There also seems to be the Pennine Cycleway (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennine_Cycleway), which I've never seen signposted. Looking forward to seeing a walking map that's as good as the Cycle Map... :-) Frankie -- Frankie Roberto Experience Designer, Rattle 0114 2706977 http://www.rattlecentral.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Walking Routes - wiki needs some work?
Am 19.01.2009 14:17, Mike Harris: > I have made some edits on your page as a starter for 10 - but feel that I > should have probably put comments somewhere else. Could you advise me on > protocol and procedure as I would be more than happy to contribute to this > discussion. Don't hesitate, just do it! as long as you are not just deleting large parts. And let me just add a general hint not to use the wiki article page as a discussion page like. "Tagging walking hiking Node Networks Do these exist anywhere? Yes, in Belgium and the Netherlands there are a number of these networks" That's what the discussion page is for. Rather rewrite the sentence preferably with a link: "Tagging walking hiking Node Networks Belgium and the Netherlands has some of these: See here and here" Happy wiki-editing, Claudius ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Walking Routes - wiki needs some work?
If you make that OSGB file available I'm sure someone will convert to lat/lon and upload, same with any other bits that you have that are missing from elsewhere. A relation should quite happily hold all of the bits and pieces for the Pennine Bridleway, it wouldn't really be doing its intended job if it didn't. Cheers Andy >-Original Message- >From: talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk- >boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Someoneelse >Sent: 19 January 2009 3:28 PM >To: talk@openstreetmap.org >Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Walking Routes - wiki needs some work? > >If it would help to tie the Cleveland Way relation together I can offer >a series of 300m-separated waypoints in OSGB format for the section >between Helmsley (actually from the spur at the bottom of White Horse >Bank) and Guisborough. No tracklog though - it is from an old GPS with >no data cable. Also something similar for the bottom end of the Pennine >Way (as far North as Littleborough). > >One question though: Is there a limit on the total number of ways in >one relation and is it possible that the Pennine Bridleway (which is >lots of higgledy-piggledy bits of bridleway joined together) might >exceed it? > >Some more local (UK Derby/Notts) stuff I'll updated "Other named paths >and trails", although I guess that that will need to be split out to >another page if it gets too large. > > >___ >talk mailing list >talk@openstreetmap.org >http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.9/1900 - Release Date: 18/01/2009 >12:11 PM ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Walking Routes - wiki needs some work?
If it would help to tie the Cleveland Way relation together I can offer a series of 300m-separated waypoints in OSGB format for the section between Helmsley (actually from the spur at the bottom of White Horse Bank) and Guisborough. No tracklog though - it is from an old GPS with no data cable. Also something similar for the bottom end of the Pennine Way (as far North as Littleborough). One question though: Is there a limit on the total number of ways in one relation and is it possible that the Pennine Bridleway (which is lots of higgledy-piggledy bits of bridleway joined together) might exceed it? Some more local (UK Derby/Notts) stuff I'll updated "Other named paths and trails", although I guess that that will need to be split out to another page if it gets too large. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Walking Routes - wiki needs some work?
Mike, The page is there, the link Gregory gave was simply broken in the email. I've added the correct link to the table in the page I created. In the "http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_United_Kingdom_Long_Distance _Paths" page there is a need to add the national Trails list etc to the table at the bottom so that we have just one location to monitor progress. Cheers Andy >-Original Message- >From: Mike Harris [mailto:mik...@googlemail.com] >Sent: 19 January 2009 1:20 PM >To: 'Gregory Williams'; 'Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)'; >talk@openstreetmap.org >Subject: RE: [OSM-talk] Walking Routes - wiki needs some work? > >The UK-only page seems to have no text. Why don't we join the two pages >into >one and use Andy's new one, which does have some text on it and is more >international? > > >Mike Harris > >-Original Message- >From: Gregory Williams [mailto:gregory.willi...@purplegeodesoftware.co.uk] >Sent: 19 January 2009 10:44 >To: Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists); talk@openstreetmap.org >Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Walking Routes - wiki needs some work? > >> -Original Message- >> From: talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk- >> boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Andy Robinson (blackadder- >> lists) >> Sent: 19 January 2009 10:26 >> To: talk@openstreetmap.org >> Subject: [OSM-talk] Walking Routes - wiki needs some work? >> >> I started a stub http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Walking_Routes >> based >> upon the Cycle Routes page. I hope this doesn't duplicate anything but >> I could not find a landing page on the wiki to cover long distance >> walking and hiking routes generally. >> >> Needs work to pull stuff together and the UK long distance footpath >> link is to Wikipedia and I guess we should produce a table(s) of our >> own to show progress on mapping each route. >> >> I suspect 2009 will see the emergence of proper OSM walking/hiking >maps >> so >> its time we got our act together. >> >> Please pull the page apart and add new stuff. Ideally try to keep >> content and ideas in the same sort of format as the Cycle Route ones >> so that >we >> have >> some synergy and we don't have to reinvent the wheel yet again ;-) > >There's the following existing page for the UK: > >http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_United_Kingdom_Long_Dista >nce_Paths > >Gregory > > > > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.9/1900 - Release Date: 18/01/2009 >12:11 PM ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Walking Routes - wiki needs some work?
The UK-only page seems to have no text. Why don't we join the two pages into one and use Andy's new one, which does have some text on it and is more international? Mike Harris -Original Message- From: Gregory Williams [mailto:gregory.willi...@purplegeodesoftware.co.uk] Sent: 19 January 2009 10:44 To: Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists); talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Walking Routes - wiki needs some work? > -Original Message- > From: talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk- > boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Andy Robinson (blackadder- > lists) > Sent: 19 January 2009 10:26 > To: talk@openstreetmap.org > Subject: [OSM-talk] Walking Routes - wiki needs some work? > > I started a stub http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Walking_Routes > based > upon the Cycle Routes page. I hope this doesn't duplicate anything but > I could not find a landing page on the wiki to cover long distance > walking and hiking routes generally. > > Needs work to pull stuff together and the UK long distance footpath > link is to Wikipedia and I guess we should produce a table(s) of our > own to show progress on mapping each route. > > I suspect 2009 will see the emergence of proper OSM walking/hiking maps > so > its time we got our act together. > > Please pull the page apart and add new stuff. Ideally try to keep > content and ideas in the same sort of format as the Cycle Route ones > so that we > have > some synergy and we don't have to reinvent the wheel yet again ;-) There's the following existing page for the UK: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_United_Kingdom_Long_Dista nce_Paths Gregory ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Walking Routes - wiki needs some work?
Andy Brilliant - you have done what I have been wanting to do for some time but - as a relative newbie - had not figured out how to get to started. I have been doing a lot of mapping of walking routes lately and have already created a lot of relations in my own area. I strongly recommend relations rather than tags - for reasons already expressed in talk and newbie discussion groups. Wish the cyclists would do the same! I have made some edits on your page as a starter for 10 - but feel that I should have probably put comments somewhere else. Could you advise me on protocol and procedure as I would be more than happy to contribute to this discussion. Thanks! Mike Harris -Original Message- From: Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) [mailto:ajrli...@googlemail.com] Sent: 19 January 2009 10:26 To: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: [OSM-talk] Walking Routes - wiki needs some work? I started a stub http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Walking_Routes based upon the Cycle Routes page. I hope this doesn't duplicate anything but I could not find a landing page on the wiki to cover long distance walking and hiking routes generally. Needs work to pull stuff together and the UK long distance footpath link is to Wikipedia and I guess we should produce a table(s) of our own to show progress on mapping each route. I suspect 2009 will see the emergence of proper OSM walking/hiking maps so its time we got our act together. Please pull the page apart and add new stuff. Ideally try to keep content and ideas in the same sort of format as the Cycle Route ones so that we have some synergy and we don't have to reinvent the wheel yet again ;-) Cheers Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Walking Routes - wiki needs some work?
Gregory Williams [mailto:gregory.willi...@purplegeodesoftware.co.uk] wrote: >Sent: 19 January 2009 10:44 AM >To: Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists); talk@openstreetmap.org >Subject: RE: [OSM-talk] Walking Routes - wiki needs some work? > >> -Original Message- >> From: talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk- >> boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Andy Robinson (blackadder- >> lists) >> Sent: 19 January 2009 10:26 >> To: talk@openstreetmap.org >> Subject: [OSM-talk] Walking Routes - wiki needs some work? >> >> I started a stub http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Walking_Routes >> based >> upon the Cycle Routes page. I hope this doesn't duplicate anything but >> I >> could not find a landing page on the wiki to cover long distance >> walking and >> hiking routes generally. >> >> Needs work to pull stuff together and the UK long distance footpath >> link is >> to Wikipedia and I guess we should produce a table(s) of our own to >> show >> progress on mapping each route. >> >> I suspect 2009 will see the emergence of proper OSM walking/hiking >maps >> so >> its time we got our act together. >> >> Please pull the page apart and add new stuff. Ideally try to keep >> content >> and ideas in the same sort of format as the Cycle Route ones so that >we >> have >> some synergy and we don't have to reinvent the wheel yet again ;-) > >There's the following existing page for the UK: > >http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_United_Kingdom_Long_Dista >nce_Paths > Thanks Gregory, Have changed the link from the Wikipedia one to this one. Cheers Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Walking Routes - wiki needs some work?
> -Original Message- > From: talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk- > boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Andy Robinson (blackadder- > lists) > Sent: 19 January 2009 10:26 > To: talk@openstreetmap.org > Subject: [OSM-talk] Walking Routes - wiki needs some work? > > I started a stub http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Walking_Routes > based > upon the Cycle Routes page. I hope this doesn't duplicate anything but > I > could not find a landing page on the wiki to cover long distance > walking and > hiking routes generally. > > Needs work to pull stuff together and the UK long distance footpath > link is > to Wikipedia and I guess we should produce a table(s) of our own to > show > progress on mapping each route. > > I suspect 2009 will see the emergence of proper OSM walking/hiking maps > so > its time we got our act together. > > Please pull the page apart and add new stuff. Ideally try to keep > content > and ideas in the same sort of format as the Cycle Route ones so that we > have > some synergy and we don't have to reinvent the wheel yet again ;-) There's the following existing page for the UK: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_United_Kingdom_Long_Dista nce_Paths Gregory ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Walking Routes - wiki needs some work?
I started a stub http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Walking_Routes based upon the Cycle Routes page. I hope this doesn't duplicate anything but I could not find a landing page on the wiki to cover long distance walking and hiking routes generally. Needs work to pull stuff together and the UK long distance footpath link is to Wikipedia and I guess we should produce a table(s) of our own to show progress on mapping each route. I suspect 2009 will see the emergence of proper OSM walking/hiking maps so its time we got our act together. Please pull the page apart and add new stuff. Ideally try to keep content and ideas in the same sort of format as the Cycle Route ones so that we have some synergy and we don't have to reinvent the wheel yet again ;-) Cheers Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
