Re: [OSM-talk] today's tragic helicopter accident in Bavaria

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

From my modest RPAS pilot experience, I can tell that during a flight 
planning, while using different sources: maps, satellite images, GPS 
traces, Wikimedia images, videos, etc. I kind of inadvertently build in 
my head a 3D model of an area, paying attention to distinctive 
landmarks, and especially to a point of landing.


In this particular case, I could map the control tower also only after I 
saw videos, aerial and ground photos, satellite images of the 
Haßfurt-Schweinfurt airport. After the tower, a major landmark, is on 
the map, here it is, I have got the 3D model.


Human brain works in 2D, that is why it takes years and years to train a 
good pilot. The professional term for a flight is: jump. Aircraft does 
not fly like a bird, it has got limitations of a jump (END - endurance, 
EET - estimated elapse time, ALT - alternate aerodrome, flight plan, 
etc.). A pilot error is not always caused by high spirits or illness, 
sometimes it is a result of objective limitations of human physiology. 
That is why any flight has got a flight planning phase.


By the way, if a smartphone battery has drained, if "Find My Phone" 
can’t locate the device, the last known location is displayed on a map.


Best regards,
Oleksiy

On 11.04.18 12:26, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


agreed, I would also believe that the military _also_ might look at 
OSM (every additional source is always useful), but very likely not 
for flying aircraft, still, I don't believe there is any correlation 
whatsoever between a military helicopter touching an airport control 
tower at daytime and good weather conditions, and this tower mapped in 
OSM or not. And even if it would have been a thunderstorm and foggy 
and night time, there wouldn't be any correlation between the accident 
and OSM (besides that you became aware of the tower and mapped it 
because of the news). Usually accidents like this happen because of 
high spirits or someone having an heart attack or similar.


On a sidenote, I think you overestimate the technology to find your 
smartphone, you would very likely not find it in the ocean or in a 
river or lake, or in a cave, or after some hours when the battery has 
drained, or in an area without cellphone or wireless reception, or if 
it was inside a shielding containment, etc. ;-)


Cheers,
Martin



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Re: [OSM-talk] today's tragic helicopter accident in Bavaria

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-04-11 12:08 GMT+02:00 Oleksiy Muzalyev :

> Martin,
>
> The OSM map is being used in a professional context on transportation. For
> example, very efficient Stockholm public transport system map:
> https://sl.se/en/ . I used this website myself while staying in
> Stockholm. I had to visit quite a few cities, but I never saw anything even
> remotely close by usefulness and efficiency to Stockholm public transport.
> Basically, one builds his/her life around this map over-there.
>
> As for the military, I saw a documentary about a modern military system,
> and there was on display of this system unmistakeably the OSM map.
>
> We tend to underestimate the technology available on our smartphones
> (including the OSM based maps). For example, I could find my lost
> smartphone even in another city in minutes, but some lost planes,
> helicopters, or RPAS are being searched for months or even years.



agreed, I would also believe that the military _also_ might look at OSM
(every additional source is always useful), but very likely not for flying
aircraft, still, I don't believe there is any correlation whatsoever
between a military helicopter touching an airport control tower at daytime
and good weather conditions, and this tower mapped in OSM or not. And even
if it would have been a thunderstorm and foggy and night time, there
wouldn't be any correlation between the accident and OSM (besides that you
became aware of the tower and mapped it because of the news). Usually
accidents like this happen because of high spirits or someone having an
heart attack or similar.

On a sidenote, I think you overestimate the technology to find your
smartphone, you would very likely not find it in the ocean or in a river or
lake, or in a cave, or after some hours when the battery has drained, or in
an area without cellphone or wireless reception, or if it was inside a
shielding containment, etc. ;-)

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] today's tragic helicopter accident in Bavaria

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

Martin,

The OSM map is being used in a professional context on transportation. 
For example, very efficient Stockholm public transport system map: 
https://sl.se/en/ . I used this website myself while staying in 
Stockholm. I had to visit quite a few cities, but I never saw anything 
even remotely close by usefulness and efficiency to Stockholm public 
transport. Basically, one builds his/her life around this map over-there.


As for the military, I saw a documentary about a modern military system, 
and there was on display of this system unmistakeably the OSM map.


We tend to underestimate the technology available on our smartphones 
(including the OSM based maps). For example, I could find my lost 
smartphone even in another city in minutes, but some lost planes, 
helicopters, or RPAS are being searched for months or even years.


Best regards,
Oleksiy

On 11.04.18 10:04, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


sent from a phone


On 11. Apr 2018, at 09:31, Oleksiy Muzalyev  wrote:

I realize that the OSM map is not used by airmen, at least not officially.


even less as this was not a hobbyist but a military helicopter

Cheers,
Martin




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Re: [OSM-talk] today's tragic helicopter accident in Bavaria

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 11. Apr 2018, at 09:31, Oleksiy Muzalyev  
> wrote:
> 
> I realize that the OSM map is not used by airmen, at least not officially.


even less as this was not a hobbyist but a military helicopter 

Cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [OSM-talk] today's tragic helicopter accident in Bavaria

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

I worked for ten years as a GOO (ground operations) at a major airline. 
I realize that the OSM map is not used by airmen, at least not officially.


I am a certified RPAS (remotely piloted aircraft system) pilot. While 
planning a flight at a certain place I look at the official special maps 
(for example RPAS restrictions map for CH [1]). But, since no map is 
perfect, I look also at the OSM map, different satellite imagery, Google 
map, Wikimedia ground and aerial images of a place, if existing, Youtube 
videos, etc. to understand what is expecting me at this place.


It is even more complicated for helicopter pilots, since risk and 
responsibility are incomparably higher. It is not impossible that an 
airman has got a smartphone in his pocket with map apps, and during long 
autopilot flight has a look at a place where he has to land, which is 
the most complex part of a flight.


Unfortunately, helicopter wire and obstacle strikes happen quite often, 
and the stats are nearly evenly split between day and nighttime events. 
86% of the fatal accidents occur in clear weather with good visibility [2].


My point is that it would at least not harm if towers, not only control 
towers, but communication, observation towers, and other tall structures 
are present on a map with an icon. It would be useful for everyone, 
since these landmarks are visible from far away at day and night.


[1] 
https://map.geo.admin.ch/?topic=aviation=de=ch.swisstopo.pixelkarte-grau=ch.bazl.einschraenkungen-drohnen_opacity=0.6=1379,2863=2635778.01=1187912.46=2
[2] 
http://aviationweek.com/business-aviation/how-avoid-helicopter-wire-strikes


With best regards,
Oleksiy

On 11.04.18 03:21, Jack Armstrong dan...@sprynet.com wrote:

Are you saying you think an aviation accident could have been avoided if OSM 
data was better? I've been an air traffic controller for 38 years. Aviation 
hazards, such as towers at airports, are well charted on navigational charts 
and airport diagrams which pilots are required to use. A pilot would never use 
OSM as a means of avoiding ground hazards at an airport. Besides, this 
particular accident happened at 10:00 A.M. local time, meaning it was daylight. 
The vast majority of aviation accidents are the result of pilot error. If a 
helicopter pilot allows his rotor blades to collide with a clearly visible 
object, that is negligence on the captain's part.



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Re: [OSM-talk] today's tragic helicopter accident in Bavaria

[Jack Armstrong dan...@sprynet.com]

Yes, I understand. I'm just explaining the situation in greater detail in case there is a misunderstanding :)-Original Message-
From: Jo <winfi...@gmail.com>
Sent: Apr 11, 2018 10:27 AM
To: Milo van der Linden <m...@dogodigi.net>
Cc: "Jack Armstrong dan...@sprynet.com" <dan...@sprynet.com>, "Jack Armstrong dan...@sprynet.com" <jacknst...@sprynet.com>, Oleksiy Muzalyev <oleksiy.muzal...@bluewin.ch>, Talk Openstreetmap <talk@openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] today's tragic helicopter accident in Bavaria

derbies -> debrisOleksiy's attention was drawn to that airport because of the tragic fatality. He noticed the tower was not mapped, so he mapped it.Cheers,Jo2018-04-11 8:17 GMT+02:00 Milo van der Linden <m...@dogodigi.net>:Dear Armstrong, please be aware that Oleksiy is no native english speaker. In his culture and language that is probably not what he is saying.

Kind regards,

Milo van der LindenOn April 11, 2018 3:21:17 AM GMT+02:00, "Jack Armstrong dan...@sprynet.com" <jacknst...@sprynet.com> wrote:
Are you saying you think an aviation accident could have been avoided if OSM data was better? I've been an air traffic controller for 38 years. Aviation hazards, such as towers at airports, are well charted on navigational charts and airport diagrams which pilots are required to use. A pilot would never use OSM as a means of avoiding ground hazards at an airport. Besides, this particular accident happened at 10:00 A.M. local time, meaning it was daylight. The vast majority of aviation accidents are the result of pilot error. If a helicopter pilot allows his rotor blades to collide with a clearly visible object, that is negligence on the captain's part.-Original Message-From: Oleksiy Muzalyev <oleksiy.muzal...@bluewin.ch>Sent: Apr 10, 2018 3:44 PMTo: Talk Openstreetmap <talk@openstreetmap.org>Subject: [OSM-talk] today's tragic helicopter accident in BavariaGood evening,There was an helicopter accident at the airport Flugplatz Haßfurt-Schweinfurt. One man from the ground staff was killed by derbies when helicopter's propeller blades touched the control tower.On the news video [1] and on the aerial image of the airport [2] it is clearly visible that the tower building is not in the same row with other buildings, it is a bit outstanding.This tower was not mapped neither on the Google maps, nor on the OSM. I mapped it by now on the OSM: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/50.01720/10.52705 with the tag: tower:type=aircraft_control, which has got a nice map icon.In general, towers, not only aircraft_control, but also communication, and others, are well visible even from far away, and could serve as good landmarks. That is why it makes sense to map towers.[1] https://rtlnext.rtl.de/cms/bundeswehr-hubschrauber-rammt-tower-flughafenmitarbeiter-von-truemmern-erschlagen-4148088.html[2] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flugplatz_Ha%C3%9Ffurt-Schweinfurt#/media/File:Flugplatz_Ha%C3%9Ffurt_Schweinfurt.jpgWith best regards,Oleksiytalk mailing listtalk@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talktalk mailing listtalk@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
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Re: [OSM-talk] today's tragic helicopter accident in Bavaria

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

Thank you, Jo. It was a typing error. It is definitively debris.

With best regards,
Oleksiy

On 11.04.18 08:27, Jo wrote:

derbies -> debris

Oleksiy's attention was drawn to that airport because of the tragic 
fatality. He noticed the tower was not mapped, so he mapped it.


Cheers,

Jo

2018-04-11 8:17 GMT+02:00 Milo van der Linden <m...@dogodigi.net 
<mailto:m...@dogodigi.net>>:


Dear Armstrong, please be aware that Oleksiy is no native english
speaker. In his culture and language that is probably not what he
is saying.

Kind regards,

Milo van der Linden

On April 11, 2018 3:21:17 AM GMT+02:00, "Jack Armstrong
dan...@sprynet.com <mailto:dan...@sprynet.com>"
<jacknst...@sprynet.com <mailto:jacknst...@sprynet.com>> wrote:

Are you saying you think an aviation accident could have been
avoided if OSM data was better? I've been an air traffic
controller for 38 years. Aviation hazards, such as towers at
airports, are well charted on navigational charts and airport
diagrams which pilots are required to use. A pilot would never
use OSM as a means of avoiding ground hazards at an airport.
Besides, this particular accident happened at 10:00 A.M. local
time, meaning it was daylight. The vast majority of aviation
accidents are the result of pilot error. If a helicopter pilot
allows his rotor blades to collide with a clearly visible
object, that is negligence on the captain's part.
-Original Message-

From: Oleksiy Muzalyev <oleksiy.muzal...@bluewin.ch
<mailto:oleksiy.muzal...@bluewin.ch>> Sent: Apr 10, 2018
3:44 PM To: Talk Openstreetmap <talk@openstreetmap.org
    <mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org>> Subject: [OSM-talk]
today's tragic helicopter accident in Bavaria Good
evening, There was an helicopter accident at the airport
Flugplatz Haßfurt-Schweinfurt. One man from the ground
staff was killed by derbies when helicopter's propeller
blades touched the control tower. On the news video [1]
and on the aerial image of the airport [2] it is clearly
visible that the tower building is not in the same row
with other buildings, it is a bit outstanding. This tower
was not mapped neither on the Google maps, nor on the OSM.
I mapped it by now on the OSM:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/50.01720/10.52705
<https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/50.01720/10.52705>
with the tag: tower:type=aircraft_control, which has got a
nice map icon. In general, towers, not only
aircraft_control, but also communication, and others, are
well visible even from far away, and could serve as good
landmarks. That is why it makes sense to map towers. [1]

https://rtlnext.rtl.de/cms/bundeswehr-hubschrauber-rammt-tower-flughafenmitarbeiter-von-truemmern-erschlagen-4148088.html

<https://rtlnext.rtl.de/cms/bundeswehr-hubschrauber-rammt-tower-flughafenmitarbeiter-von-truemmern-erschlagen-4148088.html>
[2]

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flugplatz_Ha%C3%9Ffurt-Schweinfurt#/media/File:Flugplatz_Ha%C3%9Ffurt_Schweinfurt.jpg

<https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flugplatz_Ha%C3%9Ffurt-Schweinfurt#/media/File:Flugplatz_Ha%C3%9Ffurt_Schweinfurt.jpg>
With best regards, Oleksiy


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Re: [OSM-talk] today's tragic helicopter accident in Bavaria

[Jo]

derbies -> debris

Oleksiy's attention was drawn to that airport because of the tragic
fatality. He noticed the tower was not mapped, so he mapped it.

Cheers,

Jo

2018-04-11 8:17 GMT+02:00 Milo van der Linden <m...@dogodigi.net>:

> Dear Armstrong, please be aware that Oleksiy is no native english speaker.
> In his culture and language that is probably not what he is saying.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Milo van der Linden
>
> On April 11, 2018 3:21:17 AM GMT+02:00, "Jack Armstrong dan...@sprynet.com"
> <jacknst...@sprynet.com> wrote:
>
>> Are you saying you think an aviation accident could have been avoided if OSM 
>> data was better? I've been an air traffic controller for 38 years. Aviation 
>> hazards, such as towers at airports, are well charted on navigational charts 
>> and airport diagrams which pilots are required to use. A pilot would never 
>> use OSM as a means of avoiding ground hazards at an airport. Besides, this 
>> particular accident happened at 10:00 A.M. local time, meaning it was 
>> daylight. The vast majority of aviation accidents are the result of pilot 
>> error. If a helicopter pilot allows his rotor blades to collide with a 
>> clearly visible object, that is negligence on the captain's part.
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>>
>>> From: Oleksiy Muzalyev <oleksiy.muzal...@bluewin.ch>
>>> Sent: Apr 10, 2018 3:44 PM
>>> To: Talk Openstreetmap <talk@openstreetmap.org>
>>> Subject: [OSM-talk] today's tragic helicopter accident in Bavaria
>>>
>>> Good evening,
>>>
>>> There was an helicopter accident at the airport Flugplatz
>>> Haßfurt-Schweinfurt. One man from the ground staff was killed by derbies
>>> when helicopter's propeller blades touched the control tower.
>>>
>>> On the news video [1] and on the aerial image of the airport [2] it is
>>> clearly visible that the tower building is not in the same row with
>>> other buildings, it is a bit outstanding.
>>>
>>> This tower was not mapped neither on the Google maps, nor on the OSM. I
>>> mapped it by now on the OSM:
>>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/50.01720/10.52705 with the tag:
>>> tower:type=aircraft_control, which has got a nice map icon.
>>>
>>> In general, towers, not only aircraft_control, but also communication,
>>> and others, are well visible even from far away, and could serve as good
>>> landmarks. That is why it makes sense to map towers.
>>>
>>> [1]
>>> https://rtlnext.rtl.de/cms/bundeswehr-hubschrauber-rammt-tower-flughafenmitarbeiter-von-truemmern-erschlagen-4148088.html
>>>
>>> [2]
>>> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flugplatz_Ha%C3%9Ffurt-Schweinfurt#/media/File:Flugplatz_Ha%C3%9Ffurt_Schweinfurt.jpg
>>>
>>> With best regards,
>>>
>>> Oleksiy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
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>>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>>
>>
>> --
>>
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>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] today's tragic helicopter accident in Bavaria

[Milo van der Linden]

Dear Armstrong, please be aware that Oleksiy is no native english speaker. In 
his culture and language that is probably not what he is saying.

Kind regards,

Milo van der Linden

On April 11, 2018 3:21:17 AM GMT+02:00, "Jack Armstrong dan...@sprynet.com" 
<jacknst...@sprynet.com> wrote:
>Are you saying you think an aviation accident could have been avoided
>if OSM data was better? I've been an air traffic controller for 38
>years. Aviation hazards, such as towers at airports, are well charted
>on navigational charts and airport diagrams which pilots are required
>to use. A pilot would never use OSM as a means of avoiding ground
>hazards at an airport. Besides, this particular accident happened at
>10:00 A.M. local time, meaning it was daylight. The vast majority of
>aviation accidents are the result of pilot error. If a helicopter pilot
>allows his rotor blades to collide with a clearly visible object, that
>is negligence on the captain's part.
>
>
>-Original Message-
>>From: Oleksiy Muzalyev <oleksiy.muzal...@bluewin.ch>
>>Sent: Apr 10, 2018 3:44 PM
>>To: Talk Openstreetmap <talk@openstreetmap.org>
>>Subject: [OSM-talk] today's tragic helicopter accident in Bavaria
>>
>>Good evening,
>>
>>There was an helicopter accident at the airport Flugplatz 
>>Haßfurt-Schweinfurt. One man from the ground staff was killed by
>derbies 
>>when helicopter's propeller blades touched the control tower.
>>
>>On the news video [1] and on the aerial image of the airport [2] it is
>
>>clearly visible that the tower building is not in the same row with 
>>other buildings, it is a bit outstanding.
>>
>>This tower was not mapped neither on the Google maps, nor on the OSM.
>I 
>>mapped it by now on the OSM: 
>>https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/50.01720/10.52705 with the tag: 
>>tower:type=aircraft_control, which has got a nice map icon.
>>
>>In general, towers, not only aircraft_control, but also communication,
>
>>and others, are well visible even from far away, and could serve as
>good 
>>landmarks. That is why it makes sense to map towers.
>>
>>[1] 
>>https://rtlnext.rtl.de/cms/bundeswehr-hubschrauber-rammt-tower-flughafenmitarbeiter-von-truemmern-erschlagen-4148088.html
>>
>>[2] 
>>https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flugplatz_Ha%C3%9Ffurt-Schweinfurt#/media/File:Flugplatz_Ha%C3%9Ffurt_Schweinfurt.jpg
>>
>>With best regards,
>>
>>Oleksiy
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] today's tragic helicopter accident in Bavaria

[Jack Armstrong dan...@sprynet.com]

Are you saying you think an aviation accident could have been avoided if OSM 
data was better? I've been an air traffic controller for 38 years. Aviation 
hazards, such as towers at airports, are well charted on navigational charts 
and airport diagrams which pilots are required to use. A pilot would never use 
OSM as a means of avoiding ground hazards at an airport. Besides, this 
particular accident happened at 10:00 A.M. local time, meaning it was daylight. 
The vast majority of aviation accidents are the result of pilot error. If a 
helicopter pilot allows his rotor blades to collide with a clearly visible 
object, that is negligence on the captain's part.


-Original Message-
>From: Oleksiy Muzalyev <oleksiy.muzal...@bluewin.ch>
>Sent: Apr 10, 2018 3:44 PM
>To: Talk Openstreetmap <talk@openstreetmap.org>
>Subject: [OSM-talk] today's tragic helicopter accident in Bavaria
>
>Good evening,
>
>There was an helicopter accident at the airport Flugplatz 
>Haßfurt-Schweinfurt. One man from the ground staff was killed by derbies 
>when helicopter's propeller blades touched the control tower.
>
>On the news video [1] and on the aerial image of the airport [2] it is 
>clearly visible that the tower building is not in the same row with 
>other buildings, it is a bit outstanding.
>
>This tower was not mapped neither on the Google maps, nor on the OSM. I 
>mapped it by now on the OSM: 
>https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/50.01720/10.52705 with the tag: 
>tower:type=aircraft_control, which has got a nice map icon.
>
>In general, towers, not only aircraft_control, but also communication, 
>and others, are well visible even from far away, and could serve as good 
>landmarks. That is why it makes sense to map towers.
>
>[1] 
>https://rtlnext.rtl.de/cms/bundeswehr-hubschrauber-rammt-tower-flughafenmitarbeiter-von-truemmern-erschlagen-4148088.html
>
>[2] 
>https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flugplatz_Ha%C3%9Ffurt-Schweinfurt#/media/File:Flugplatz_Ha%C3%9Ffurt_Schweinfurt.jpg
>
>With best regards,
>
>Oleksiy
>
>
>
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[OSM-talk] today's tragic helicopter accident in Bavaria

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

Good evening,

There was an helicopter accident at the airport Flugplatz 
Haßfurt-Schweinfurt. One man from the ground staff was killed by derbies 
when helicopter's propeller blades touched the control tower.


On the news video [1] and on the aerial image of the airport [2] it is 
clearly visible that the tower building is not in the same row with 
other buildings, it is a bit outstanding.


This tower was not mapped neither on the Google maps, nor on the OSM. I 
mapped it by now on the OSM: 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/50.01720/10.52705 with the tag: 
tower:type=aircraft_control, which has got a nice map icon.


In general, towers, not only aircraft_control, but also communication, 
and others, are well visible even from far away, and could serve as good 
landmarks. That is why it makes sense to map towers.


[1] 
https://rtlnext.rtl.de/cms/bundeswehr-hubschrauber-rammt-tower-flughafenmitarbeiter-von-truemmern-erschlagen-4148088.html


[2] 
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flugplatz_Ha%C3%9Ffurt-Schweinfurt#/media/File:Flugplatz_Ha%C3%9Ffurt_Schweinfurt.jpg


With best regards,

Oleksiy



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