Re: [OSM-talk] what to do cues

[Russ Nelson]

Jeff Meyer writes:
 > I agree that rules can be tricky. Would it be possible, to play around with
 > the code you've written, to see what results it generates?

I never got any rules written. I wrote enough code to get to the point
where I needed rules, and then couldn't come up with anything that I
thought would be reasonable!

 > The issue I'm trying to address is this: people who sign up for OSM & then
 > make 0 edits. Why? Is it because they cannot find the editor? Is it because
 > they don't know what to edit?

This site ought to be easier to use, but once it is, it would be a
good place to point people. http://ae.osmsurround.org/ae/index#
For example, if you're not logged in, it should say "Step 1: Login."
It doesn't. It lets you create a POI, and then says "Oh, you didn't
log in, you have to login first." Then once you do that, you lose the
information about your first POI.

We need a (if not that, then another) website in which every step is
downhill, culminating with people successfully making their first edit
to OSM, and then being told how to make their next edit. No stumbling
points, no uphill climb.

-- 
--my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com
Crynwr supports open source software
521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815
Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  | Sheepdog   

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] what to do cues

[Jeff Meyer]

Robin - my apologies for my crankiness. You did not presume anything.

On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 5:59 AM, Robin Paulson  wrote:
>
>
> the point i was trying to make is that perhaps the experience is
> alienating because of all the new software, ideas, concepts that someone
> who wishes to map has to learn. instead of more software, more tools,
> perhaps what they need is someone talking with them?
>
> maybe they are the types that don't read help guides, that if they can't
> understand it straight away give up, rather than search for help or advice?


Yes, I believe it can be alienating because of all the tools. My goal is to
have something more integral to the editing or observation experience,
rather than taking people out of / away from OSM. It should be no more
intrusive than say Nominatim.

To you latter point, yes, I believe those types are 85+% of Internet users.

I'm not a long-time OSMer, but I've been working hard in my local hood & I
think I'd benefit from such assistance.

-- 
Jeff Meyer
Global World History Atlas
www.gwhat.org
j...@gwhat.org
206-676-2347
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] what to do cues

[Robin Paulson]

On 2013-01-02 18:26, Jeff Meyer wrote:

What do you mean, "The wrong route?" Is there a wrong route for
recruiting and engaging new mappers?


well, yes. any route which doesn't recruit or engage them.

and i'm not keen on the word recruit anyway, it makes OSM sound like 
the army, or a cult



As for interacting, why are you presuming I have not done so?


well, i didn't presume so. i asked if so

the point i was trying to make is that perhaps the experience is 
alienating because of all the new software, ideas, concepts that someone 
who wishes to map has to learn. instead of more software, more tools, 
perhaps what they need is someone talking with them?


maybe they are the types that don't read help guides, that if they 
can't understand it straight away give up, rather than search for help 
or advice?



 On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 8:58 PM, Robin Paulson 
 The issue Im trying to address is this: people who sign up for
OSM &

then make 0 edits. Why? Is it because they cannot find the
editor? Is
it because they dont know what to edit?


have you tried good old human interaction? rather than trying to
second guess them and spending a lot of time creating some tool
which doesnt address the problem, maybe ask why they dont
contribute?

this isnt at all answering the question you asked, but i think you
may have asked a question which takes you down the wrong route.


--
robin

http://universitywithoutconditions.ac.nz - Auckland's Free University

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] what to do cues

[Jeff Meyer]

What do you mean, "The wrong route?" Is there a wrong route for recruiting
and engaging new mappers?

As for interacting, why are you presuming I have not done so?

On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 8:58 PM, Robin Paulson  wrote:

> On 2013-01-02 07:26, Jeff Meyer wrote:
>
>> I agree that rules can be tricky. Would it be possible, to play
>> around with the code youve written, to see what results it generates?
>>
>>  The issue Im trying to address is this: people who sign up for OSM &
>>
>> then make 0 edits. Why? Is it because they cannot find the editor? Is
>> it because they dont know what to edit?
>>
>
> have you tried good old human interaction? rather than trying to second
> guess them and spending a lot of time creating some tool which doesn't
> address the problem, maybe ask why they don't contribute?
>
> this isn't at all answering the question you asked, but i think you may
> have asked a question which takes you down the wrong route.
>
>
> --
> robin
>
> http://**universitywithoutconditions.**ac.nz-
>  Auckland's Free University
>
> __**_
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/talk
>



-- 
Jeff Meyer
Global World History Atlas
www.gwhat.org
j...@gwhat.org
206-676-2347
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] what to do cues

[Robin Paulson]

On 2013-01-02 07:26, Jeff Meyer wrote:

I agree that rules can be tricky. Would it be possible, to play
around with the code youve written, to see what results it generates?

 The issue Im trying to address is this: people who sign up for OSM &
then make 0 edits. Why? Is it because they cannot find the editor? Is
it because they dont know what to edit?


have you tried good old human interaction? rather than trying to second 
guess them and spending a lot of time creating some tool which doesn't 
address the problem, maybe ask why they don't contribute?


this isn't at all answering the question you asked, but i think you may 
have asked a question which takes you down the wrong route.


--
robin

http://universitywithoutconditions.ac.nz - Auckland's Free University

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] what to do cues

[Svavar Kjarrval]

What I've found easiest is to encourage people to check on areas they
know well, like where they currently live. Armed with that and maybe
some imagery, they might have some basis to make edits. They will be
fairly careful since it's an area they care about.

- Svavar Kjarrval

On 01/01/13 18:26, Jeff Meyer wrote:
> Russ - 
>
> I agree that rules can be tricky. Would it be possible, to play around
> with the code you've written, to see what results it generates?
>
> The issue I'm trying to address is this: people who sign up for OSM &
> then make 0 edits. Why? Is it because they cannot find the editor? Is
> it because they don't know what to edit?
>
> I'm trying to hit the latter question, which is where I think I'm
> trying to do something different from what Robin & Serge discuss -
> there *are* people who don't know what OSM offers them that interests
> them. They haven't decided to go out for a walk yet, they haven't
> decided they're going to test the waters. OSM can be intimidating. How
> do we make it less so? 
>
> - Jeff
>
>
> -- 
> Jeff Meyer
> Global World History Atlas
> www.gwhat.org 
> j...@gwhat.org 
> 206-676-2347
>
>
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] what to do cues

[Russ Nelson]

Christian Quest writes:
 > newcomers are afraid of breaking existing stuff.

I was totally afraid of breaking existing stuff. How embarrassing!
Maybe if it was easier to revert a changeset, like from the person's
changeset listing?

-- 
--my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com
Crynwr supports open source software
521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815
Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  | Sheepdog   

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] what to do cues

[Christian Quest]

After trying to contaminate a couple of friends with the OSM virus,
the biggest problem I think we have comes from the complexity of the
editors (even P2) multiplied by the growing data density.

The growing amount of data makes editing looking more difficult and
newcomers are afraid of breaking existing stuff.

Graphical editors are needed when you create new objects, but with the
growing number of already existing objecs another generation of
editing tools becomes possible.

Look at wheelmap on smartphones. You add details (wheelchair
accessibility and a few others) to existing objects.
It's much much easier to use for a first contact... than using P2 to
add wheelchair access or other details.

I think we need to think of new ways to contribute, with less
graphical editors more in the "cues" approach with some kind of
wizard-like interface. Once contaminated by the OSM virus, graphical
editors will be seen as great tools ;)

I thought of cross checking existing OSM POI in a town with
statistical databases* to say "there is 3 bakeries known in OSM, but
it looks like 2 are missing... would you like to add them ?"
or something as simple as "do you know where you local townhall is
located ? add it"


* in France, we have such a database available from government
statistics agency (INSEE), it lists more than 200 different kinds of
possible POIs on a village by village level (or even lower level in
towns).



2013/1/1 Jeff Meyer :
> Russ -
>
> I agree that rules can be tricky. Would it be possible, to play around with
> the code you've written, to see what results it generates?
>
> The issue I'm trying to address is this: people who sign up for OSM & then
> make 0 edits. Why? Is it because they cannot find the editor? Is it because
> they don't know what to edit?
>
> I'm trying to hit the latter question, which is where I think I'm trying to
> do something different from what Robin & Serge discuss - there *are* people
> who don't know what OSM offers them that interests them. They haven't
> decided to go out for a walk yet, they haven't decided they're going to test
> the waters. OSM can be intimidating. How do we make it less so?
>
> - Jeff
>
>
> --
> Jeff Meyer
> Global World History Atlas
> www.gwhat.org
> j...@gwhat.org
> 206-676-2347
>
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>



-- 
Christian Quest - OpenStreetMap France - http://openstreetmap.fr/u/cquest

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] what to do cues

[Jeff Meyer]

Russ -

I agree that rules can be tricky. Would it be possible, to play around with
the code you've written, to see what results it generates?

The issue I'm trying to address is this: people who sign up for OSM & then
make 0 edits. Why? Is it because they cannot find the editor? Is it because
they don't know what to edit?

I'm trying to hit the latter question, which is where I think I'm trying to
do something different from what Robin & Serge discuss - there *are* people
who don't know what OSM offers them that interests them. They haven't
decided to go out for a walk yet, they haven't decided they're going to
test the waters. OSM can be intimidating. How do we make it less so?

- Jeff


-- 
Jeff Meyer
Global World History Atlas
www.gwhat.org
j...@gwhat.org
206-676-2347
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] what to do cues

[Richard Weait]

On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 7:54 AM, Serge Wroclawski  wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 12:54 AM, Jeff Meyer  wrote:
> > Are there any tools that can tip users to what they could do in a
> particular
> > map area?
>
> In my experience, when mappers go out and start to map, they discover
> things that interest them straight away.
>


> >   -- Fewer addresses - learn how to add
> >   -- Fewer buildings - learn how to add
> >   -- Fewer POIs - learn how to add
> >   -- POIs that would normally have buildings, but don't (e.g. schools)
> >   -- Zorro Ways - learn how to fix
> >   -- There's a park with no trails - learn how to add
> >   -- etc.
>
> That's be very cool and not *super* hard to do. Something similar is
> being done with TIGER desserts.
>
> > In general, I'm thinking of something that will help new users answer the
> > question, "How can I help?," particularly for their local 'hood without
> > sending them to too (too) many off-map web resources. Or even a
> suggestive
> > OSM Inspector?
>
> I think the best way is to do mapping parties, but we've talked about
> tools and I think a tool that would help new mappers with tasks would
> be great.
>

At the DC Hack Weekend (Feb 2012?) this was one of the functions proposed
for user activity streams.  Something that recognizes mapper progress "I
see that you've added a local gas station..." and suggests likely next
steps "did you know that you can include the address?" or goals "The
nearest OSM hospital to your home location is 3.4km away. Do you know of
another one that is nearer?".  But also that avoids turning into some sort
of cartographic-Clippy. :-)
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] what to do cues

[Serge Wroclawski]

On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 12:54 AM, Jeff Meyer  wrote:
> Are there any tools that can tip users to what they could do in a particular
> map area?

In my experience, when mappers go out and start to map, they discover
things that interest them straight away.

I used to bring the OSM Cheat Sheet (a selected Features list) to
mapping parties, but there are too many features.

It might make sense to make a few cheat sheets for different kinds of
areas/features (urban, country, suburban, humanitarian).

> For example, for a given bb(zoom>some min) in a browser window, is there
> anything that says:

> - Hey, relative to other (or selected best-practice examples) areas like the
> one you're viewing, this area has:

>   -- Fewer addresses - learn how to add
>   -- Fewer buildings - learn how to add
>   -- Fewer POIs - learn how to add
>   -- POIs that would normally have buildings, but don't (e.g. schools)
>   -- Zorro Ways - learn how to fix
>   -- There's a park with no trails - learn how to add
>   -- etc.

That's be very cool and not *super* hard to do. Something similar is
being done with TIGER desserts.

> In general, I'm thinking of something that will help new users answer the
> question, "How can I help?," particularly for their local 'hood without
> sending them to too (too) many off-map web resources. Or even a suggestive
> OSM Inspector?

I think the best way is to do mapping parties, but we've talked about
tools and I think a tool that would help new mappers with tasks would
be great.

- Serge

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] what to do cues

[Russ Nelson]

Jeff Meyer writes:
 > Are there any tools that can tip users to what they could do in a
 > particular map area?

I have a tool to do it, but what I lack are the rules. Given an
arbitrary bbox, what can we *really* say about that bbox? No park
benches? Well, why not? Well, there are no parks. But are park benches
only found in parks? Etc. It gets kinda crazy once you sit down to
write up these tips.

-- 
--my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com
Crynwr supports open source software
521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815
Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  | Sheepdog   

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] what to do cues

[Andrew Errington]

You could as

On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 3:21 PM, Michal Migurski  wrote:
> On Dec 30, 2012, at 9:54 PM, Jeff Meyer wrote:
>
>> Are there any tools that can tip users to what they could do in a particular 
>> map area?
>>
>> For example, for a given bb(zoom>some min) in a browser window, is there 
>> anything that says:
>> - Hey, relative to other (or selected best-practice examples) areas like the 
>> one you're viewing, this area has:
>> -- Fewer addresses - learn how to add
>> -- Fewer buildings - learn how to add
>> -- Fewer POIs - learn how to add
>> -- POIs that would normally have buildings, but don't (e.g. schools)
>> -- Zorro Ways - learn how to fix
>> -- There's a park with no trails - learn how to add
>> -- etc.
>>
>> In general, I'm thinking of something that will help new users answer the 
>> question, "How can I help?," particularly for their local 'hood without 
>> sending them to too (too) many off-map web resources. Or even a suggestive 
>> OSM Inspector?
>
> Geofabrik has the Inspector tool, which is a bit inside-baseball but does a 
> great job of surfacing a variety of common tagging and geometry problems:
> 
> http://tools.geofabrik.de/osmi/debug.html?view=geometry&lon=-122.29381&lat=37.80892&zoom=11&opacity=0.29
> 
> http://tools.geofabrik.de/osmi/debug.html?view=tagging&lon=-122.33638&lat=47.55957&zoom=11&opacity=0.29
>
> It'd be interesting to develop code for some of the more wish-listey items 
> you suggest, like parks with no trails or buildingless-POIs.
>
> -mike.

How about OpenStreetBugs (http://openstreetbugs.schokokeks.org/)?
Encourage people to add details of errors and omissions that they have
noticed that they can't or don't know how to fix.  Then encourage
everyone else to take a look there from time to time and fix the
things they can.

I sometimes use OpenStreetBugs to leave notes for myself.  I will make
a note of something to do later, then, later, I can go and fix it, or
maybe someone else had time to do it instead.

Best wishes,

Andrew

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] what to do cues

[Robin Paulson]

On 2012-12-31 18:54, Jeff Meyer wrote:

Are there any tools that can tip users to what they could do in a
particular map area?

For example, for a given bb(zoom>some min) in a browser window, is
there anything that says:
- Hey, relative to other (or selected best-practice examples) areas
like the one youre viewing, this area has:
  -- Fewer addresses - learn how to add
  -- Fewer buildings - learn how to add
  -- Fewer POIs - learn how to add
  -- POIs that would normally have buildings, but dont (e.g. schools)

  -- Zorro Ways - learn how to fix
  -- Theres a park with no trails - learn how to add
  -- etc.

In general, Im thinking of something that will help new users answer
the question, "How can I help?," particularly for their local hood


the problem with that is that it makes osm rather more conservative 
than it perhaps wants to be. newbies, who come to the project with less 
ideas about 'how things are, and how things should be' are one useful 
avenue for critique of what we do, why and how. steering them into a way 
which says what we think they can do will possibly decrease that, which 
would be our loss and theirs


the more flippant answer to what they could map would be to suggest 
they look at the map, then walk round a neighbourhood and record what 
they think is relevant and not already mapped. all the hints are there 
already,


whenever someone asks me "what should i map?" i say "well, what do you 
think is important, what matters to you, what interests you?", rather 
than giving them a list of what i think matters, or what i have been 
indoctrinated to believe 'should' be on a map


--
robin

http://universitywithoutconditions.ac.nz - Auckland's Free University

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] what to do cues

[Michal Migurski]

On Dec 30, 2012, at 9:54 PM, Jeff Meyer wrote:

> Are there any tools that can tip users to what they could do in a particular 
> map area?
> 
> For example, for a given bb(zoom>some min) in a browser window, is there 
> anything that says:
> - Hey, relative to other (or selected best-practice examples) areas like the 
> one you're viewing, this area has:
> -- Fewer addresses - learn how to add
> -- Fewer buildings - learn how to add
> -- Fewer POIs - learn how to add
> -- POIs that would normally have buildings, but don't (e.g. schools)
> -- Zorro Ways - learn how to fix
> -- There's a park with no trails - learn how to add
> -- etc.
> 
> In general, I'm thinking of something that will help new users answer the 
> question, "How can I help?," particularly for their local 'hood without 
> sending them to too (too) many off-map web resources. Or even a suggestive 
> OSM Inspector?

Geofabrik has the Inspector tool, which is a bit inside-baseball but does a 
great job of surfacing a variety of common tagging and geometry problems:

http://tools.geofabrik.de/osmi/debug.html?view=geometry&lon=-122.29381&lat=37.80892&zoom=11&opacity=0.29

http://tools.geofabrik.de/osmi/debug.html?view=tagging&lon=-122.33638&lat=47.55957&zoom=11&opacity=0.29

It'd be interesting to develop code for some of the more wish-listey items you 
suggest, like parks with no trails or buildingless-POIs.

-mike.


michal migurski- contact info and pgp key:
sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html





___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[OSM-talk] what to do cues

[Jeff Meyer]

Are there any tools that can tip users to what they could do in a
particular map area?

For example, for a given bb(zoom>some min) in a browser window, is there
anything that says:
- Hey, relative to other (or selected best-practice examples) areas like
the one you're viewing, this area has:
  -- Fewer addresses - learn how to add
  -- Fewer buildings - learn how to add
  -- Fewer POIs - learn how to add
  -- POIs that would normally have buildings, but don't (e.g. schools)
  -- Zorro Ways - learn how to fix
  -- There's a park with no trails - learn how to add
  -- etc.

In general, I'm thinking of something that will help new users answer the
question, "How can I help?," particularly for their local 'hood without
sending them to too (too) many off-map web resources. Or even a suggestive
OSM Inspector?

- Jeff

-- 
Jeff Meyer
Global World History Atlas
www.gwhat.org
j...@gwhat.org
206-676-2347
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk