Re: [OSM-talk] Collecting public transportation time tables
On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 4:47 PM, Adam Schreiber wrote: >> I wound be very interested to see the first time that a transport >> authority took a person to court for promoting their services but >> there may be a first time! I do suggest that this is a different >> project from OSM though. > > Yes, but certainly tied to OSM data though. It would be very cool if > from this other project, people could assemble routes from nodes > already tagged as bus/train stops, add time table info for routes > already in the OSM DB and set nodes as the appropriate stops. This > would probably need some form of a heavily modified potlache. I don't see why this needs to be a separate project. We already have Key:opening_hours for amenities, why not Tag:highway:bus_stop with additional tags that describe when each bus line stops there and a relation to map the greater bus route. That should be sufficient information to map the transit system and the data wouldn't be spread across two independently maintained databases. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Collecting public transportation time tables
On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 5:11 PM, Peter Miller wrote: > I wound be very interested to see the first time that a transport > authority took a person to court for promoting their services but > there may be a first time! actually, I seem to remember reading on either slashdot or theregister that it has happened in the last month or so, with a transport company sueing some online timetable service, but I can't remember the details -- Elena of Valhalla homepage: http://www.trueelena.org email: elena.valha...@gmail.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Collecting public transportation time tables
On Wednesday 17 December 2008, Elena of Valhalla wrote: > On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 5:11 PM, Peter Miller wrote: > > I wound be very interested to see the first time that a transport > > authority took a person to court for promoting their services but > > there may be a first time! > > actually, I seem to remember reading on either slashdot or > theregister that it has happened in the last month or so, with a > transport company sueing some online timetable service, but I can't > remember the details There was a bit going on with this iphone app http://trein.naquah.net/ which can be used to look up timetables for the Dutch railway services. It didn't go to court, but the Dutch railways wanted it removed from the iphone app store (which hasn't happened AFAIK). More information (in Dutch, sorry): http://blog.iusmentis.com/2008/10/11/mag-trein-opzoeken-hoe-laat-de-trein-vertrekt http://webwereld.nl/articles/53098/ns-wil-verwijdering-iphone-app.html I guess it's up to lawyers to decide whether database copyright applies here or not. Ben ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Collecting public transportation time tables
On 17 Dec 2008, at 15:25, Sascha Silbe wrote: > On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 03:02:17PM +, Peter Miller wrote: > >> There is not however a problem as far as I know in people >> collecting their own timetable information from printed material >> and entering it into a common DV. > I haven't collected anything yet since I fear the data might be > protected under the new database "copyright" in the EU. Would be > interesting to get a lawyers opinion on that. > I wound be very interested to see the first time that a transport authority took a person to court for promoting their services but there may be a first time! I do suggest that this is a different project from OSM though. Regards, Peter > CU Sascha > > -- > http://sascha.silbe.org/ > http://www.infra-silbe.de/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Collecting public transportation time tables
How about making an iphone app where people can just type in "I just saw the 555 bus go past"? After a few samples you have a timetable. Or some place where people can upload timestamped tracklogs if they catch a bus. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Collecting public transportation time tables
On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 8:11 AM, Peter Miller wrote: > > On 17 Dec 2008, at 15:25, Sascha Silbe wrote: > >> On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 03:02:17PM +, Peter Miller wrote: >> >>> There is not however a problem as far as I know in people >>> collecting their own timetable information from printed material >>> and entering it into a common DV. >> I haven't collected anything yet since I fear the data might be >> protected under the new database "copyright" in the EU. Would be >> interesting to get a lawyers opinion on that. >> > > I wound be very interested to see the first time that a transport > authority took a person to court for promoting their services but > there may be a first time! I do suggest that this is a different > project from OSM though. Yes, but certainly tied to OSM data though. It would be very cool if from this other project, people could assemble routes from nodes already tagged as bus/train stops, add time table info for routes already in the OSM DB and set nodes as the appropriate stops. This would probably need some form of a heavily modified potlache. Cheers, Adam ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Collecting public transportation time tables
> I don't see why this needs to be a separate project. We already have > Key:opening_hours for amenities, why not Tag:highway:bus_stop with > additional tags that describe when each bus line stops there and a > relation to map the greater bus route. That should be sufficient > information to map the transit system and the data wouldn't be spread > across two independently maintained databases. Then you have the fact that time tables depend on the day of the week, that the route depends also on the day of the week, and on the time of day, and It's a big project in itself. Rather than try to centralize everything we know about the world into OSM, we would be better off figuring out how multiple databases can be tightly connected. Stefan ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Collecting public transportation time tables
On Wed, 2008-12-17 at 19:59 +, OJ W wrote: > How about making an iphone app where people can just type in "I just > saw the 555 bus go past"? After a few samples you have a timetable. Not if they run their services like one or two bus companies I know! ;o) I suppose it could be quite interesting to compare the official timetables to crowd-sourced data to see who would be the most accurate. Regards, Andy Street (ex bus user!) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Collecting public transportation time tables
On 17 Dec 2008, at 18:29, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote: > On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 4:47 PM, Adam Schreiber > wrote: >>> I wound be very interested to see the first time that a transport >>> authority took a person to court for promoting their services but >>> there may be a first time! I do suggest that this is a different >>> project from OSM though. >> >> Yes, but certainly tied to OSM data though. It would be very cool if >> from this other project, people could assemble routes from nodes >> already tagged as bus/train stops, add time table info for routes >> already in the OSM DB and set nodes as the appropriate stops. This >> would probably need some form of a heavily modified potlache. > > I don't see why this needs to be a separate project. We already have > Key:opening_hours for amenities, why not Tag:highway:bus_stop with > additional tags that describe when each bus line stops there and a > relation to map the greater bus route. That should be sufficient > information to map the transit system and the data wouldn't be spread > across two independently maintained databases. I assure you public transport timetables are very complex and one most certainly can't implement it as tags to the OSM model. Consider the bus service that runs on market days and wednesdays during school holidays and stops at some places at a fixed time (a timing point), stops at other stops when it gets there (non-timing points), can be flagged down on some parts of the route (hail and ride) and will wait up to 5 mins for a delayed train at xxx station (connection protection). GTFS is the simplest timetable format and even that one falls down in complex situations. The complexities go on an on! Anyway, if one uses GTFS I believe one gets a trip planner for free with Graphserver. This is as simple as it gets and would be a sensible starting point. The stops would however be referenced to OSM as would the shapes: http://code.google.com/transit/spec/transit_feed_specification.html Given that timetables change a lot more frequently than roads and bus stops it is actually good practice to separate them. I am going to ask for a new list. No one else has voted for it but there is a good conversation going on and I think it needs a home. Regards, Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Collecting public transportation time tables
Hi, Peter Miller wrote: > I wound be very interested to see the first time that a transport > authority took a person to court for promoting their services but > there may be a first time! I do suggest that this is a different > project from OSM though. We have had bus companies reject our request for giving us locations of their bus stops and their routes and operating frequencies, on the grounds of making it too easy for competitors to work out their cost and make a lower bid. Sounds quite stupid (any competitor worth their salt could find that out on their own) but if that's how people think then they probably would not hesitate taking someone to court... Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Collecting public transportation time tables
On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 9:40 PM, Andy Street wrote: > On Wed, 2008-12-17 at 19:59 +, OJ W wrote: >> How about making an iphone app where people can just type in "I just >> saw the 555 bus go past"? After a few samples you have a timetable. > > Not if they run their services like one or two bus companies I know! ;o) > > I suppose it could be quite interesting to compare the official > timetables to crowd-sourced data to see who would be the most accurate. > > Regards, > > Andy Street (ex bus user!) I used to catch a train which was exactly 15 minutes late every day (for a year or more). Writing down when it actually leaves rather than when the timetable says it should leave, would be quite useful for someone planning to take that train... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Collecting public transportation time tables
Peter Miller wrote: > I wound be very interested to see the first time that a transport > authority took a person to court for promoting their services but > there may be a first time! I do suggest that this is a different > project from OSM though. Like this? Berlin Metro Bans Free iPhone Timetable Application http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/2008/11/berlin-metro-ba.html Admittedly not a court case, but they do claim copyright and what'snot on their timetable data. spaetz ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Collecting public transportation time tables
On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 00:30:31 + "OJ W" wrote: > On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 9:40 PM, Andy Street > wrote: > > On Wed, 2008-12-17 at 19:59 +, OJ W wrote: > >> How about making an iphone app where people can just type in "I > >> just saw the 555 bus go past"? After a few samples you have a > >> timetable. > > > > Not if they run their services like one or two bus companies I > > know! ;o) > > > > I suppose it could be quite interesting to compare the official > > timetables to crowd-sourced data to see who would be the most > > accurate. > > > I used to catch a train which was exactly 15 minutes late every day > (for a year or more). Writing down when it actually leaves rather > than when the timetable says it should leave, would be quite useful > for someone planning to take that train... > I have been thinking along these lines and collected time-stamped tickets for some time. I plan to plot them to get average realistic arrival times. I suspect it might actually be telling transport planners data they don't know. It might also (rightly) embarrass them, though that's not my specific intent (unless it makes them improve the service or publish timetables they can keep to). They're certainly not interested when I take the trouble to complain. I have considered using a microblogging service something like identi.ca (or a clone based on laconi.ca) for the real-time crowdsourcing part. So we might even be able to increase the visibility of punctuality data and affect improvements. All very exciting. Yes, let's get a room, er, list for this. :~) Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Collecting public transportation time tables
On 18 Dec 2008, at 10:49, Hugh Barnes wrote: > On Thu, 18 Dec 2008 00:30:31 + > "OJ W" wrote: > >> On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 9:40 PM, Andy Street >> wrote: >>> On Wed, 2008-12-17 at 19:59 +, OJ W wrote: How about making an iphone app where people can just type in "I just saw the 555 bus go past"? After a few samples you have a timetable. >>> >>> Not if they run their services like one or two bus companies I >>> know! ;o) >>> >>> I suppose it could be quite interesting to compare the official >>> timetables to crowd-sourced data to see who would be the most >>> accurate. >> >> >> I used to catch a train which was exactly 15 minutes late every day >> (for a year or more). Writing down when it actually leaves rather >> than when the timetable says it should leave, would be quite useful >> for someone planning to take that train... >> > > I have been thinking along these lines and collected time-stamped > tickets for some time. I plan to plot them to get average realistic > arrival times. I suspect it might actually be telling transport > planners data they don't know. It might also (rightly) embarrass them, > though that's not my specific intent (unless it makes them improve the > service or publish timetables they can keep to). They're certainly not > interested when I take the trouble to complain. > > I have considered using a microblogging service something like > identi.ca > (or a clone based on laconi.ca) for the real-time crowdsourcing part. > > So we might even be able to increase the visibility of punctuality > data > and affect improvements. This website collected information from delayed passengers about train arrival times and then makes it available to others (and also makes it easy to claim compensation for delayed trains). Could there be an overlap with OSM at some point, or a child of OSM with real time streaming GPS data from phones etc. http://www.traindelays.co.uk/ Btw, who should I email to get our own list? Peter > > > All very exciting. Yes, let's get a room, er, list for this. :~) > > Cheers > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Collecting public transportation time tables
On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 03:19:02PM -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote: > Rather than try to centralize everything we know about the world into > OSM, we would be better off figuring out how multiple databases can be > tightly connected. There’s the added bonus that when you make a project independent from its data sources you get to use other sources more easily because you’ve not tied it to a particular format. I’m sure many would love OpenStreetMap to be _the_ source for free (libre) geodata. I would rather it be one of many. Simon -- A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that works.—John Gall signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Collecting public transportation time tables
On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 10:10 PM, Peter Miller wrote: > I assure you public transport timetables are very complex and one most > certainly can't implement it as tags to the OSM model. Given that we have * Unlimited numbers of key/value pairs per object * Recursivable objects (relations of relations of themselves) * RDF triples (relation roles means you can say subject A is a predicate B to object C) technically there's nothing that you can't represent in OSM! Whether you'd want to or not is a different matter. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Collecting public transportation time tables
>I used to catch a train which was exactly 15 minutes late every day >(for a year or more). Writing down when it actually leaves rather >than when the timetable says it should leave, would be quite useful >for someone planning to take that train... Sounds like the dreaded 17:35 from Bath to Southampton in the late 90s Oh, and it was booked for 4 coaches too, but regularly had half that number Nick ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
