Re: [OSM-talk] Is anyone making public transport routing maps basedon OpenStreetMap data?
Peter Miller wrote: > I think that would be an excellent idea, however don't assume transit > authorities will always give you the data because they often won't for > various reasons. One of the wonderful things about ODbL is the concept of a collective work as applied to separate databases. Right now, if you were to unofficially screenscrape the UK rail timetable and do magic stuff with it and OSM data, you'd probably fall foul of CC-BY-SA (boo, hiss). Whereas with ODbL it'd be a collective database and OSM wouldn't worry about the fact you don't have permission to do anything at all with the timetable. Not that I'm planning to screenscrape the PDF timetable or anything. Though I imagine that, if I were, I'd use CAM::PDF to read the file, write my own PDF renderer, then parse the columns and put the result in a MySQL database. Purely hypothetically. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Is-anyone-making-public-transport-routing-maps-based-on-OpenStreetMap-data--tp21044201p21055443.html Sent from the OpenStreetMap - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Is anyone making public transport routing maps basedon OpenStreetMap data?
> Not that I'm planning to screenscrape the PDF timetable or anything. Though > I imagine that, if I were, I'd use CAM::PDF to read the file, write my own > PDF renderer, then parse the columns and put the result in a MySQL database. > Purely hypothetically. Would you happen to have a hypothetically working hypothetical program that does just that? Stefan ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Is anyone making public transport routing maps basedon OpenStreetMap data?
On 17 Dec 2008, at 14:22, Nick Whitelegg wrote: >> I'm interested in completely mapping my city bus network, it would be >> great if there was some online routing application that I could go to >> that could plan my routes. Of course I'd have to provide it with >> sufficient survey information to do this, which would be part of >> mapping it obviously. > >> Routing applications based on OSM data also have the opportunity to >> do >> inter-network routing. You could step onto a bus in one city, take a >> rail to another one, inter-city bus to yet another city, then a bus >> and walk on a footway to your destination. All based on OSM data. > > I wonder if there is scope for an OpenTimetable.org system or similar, > which is an integrated - and open - bus/train timetable database. > Transport companies could be invited to supply data to this, and > then it > could be made available to anyone. > I think that would be an excellent idea, however don't assume transit authorities will always give you the data because they often won't for various reasons. There is not however a problem as far as I know in people collecting their own timetable information from printed material and entering it into a common DV. What would be needed would be a repository and a way of entering data. GTFS is probably a good starting point. Some data is already available from authorities in that format. I do expect that more official data may be donated in time, but people might need to be prepared to do it the hard way first. Personally I also think it would be good to provide a way for people to enter old timetables. I have a bradshaws 1921 railway timetable and there is also a reprint for 1910. I am sure some people would love to enter it into a DB so that could produce station maps and do journey planning for the old network! Are you in favour of a new list to discuss these sorts of things? Peter > Nick > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Is anyone making public transport routing maps basedon OpenStreetMap data?
On 17 Dec 2008, at 7:05, Peter Miller wrote: >> I wonder if there is scope for an OpenTimetable.org system or similar, >> which is an integrated - and open - bus/train timetable database. >> Transport companies could be invited to supply data to this, and >> then it >> could be made available to anyone. Out of the things that exist today, this is the closest: http://www.gtfs-data-exchange.com/ but there are couple other related starting points: http://www.opentransitdata.org/ http://code.google.com/p/googletransitdatafeed/wiki/PublicFeeds Several people on the Transit Developers mailing list have created bits of software to enter & maintain timetable data, but I don't know if any of them are in a state to be reused for this. > Personally I also think it would be good to provide a way for people > to enter old timetables. I have a bradshaws 1921 railway timetable and Historical data would be fantastic! > Are you in favour of a new list to discuss these sorts of things? You've got my vote for a more public-transport-related list. Joe ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Is anyone making public transport routing maps basedon OpenStreetMap data?
Hi, Richard Fairhurst wrote: > Not that I'm planning to screenscrape the PDF timetable or anything. Though > I imagine that, if I were, I'd use CAM::PDF to read the file, write my own > PDF renderer, then parse the columns and put the result in a MySQL database. > Purely hypothetically. Soundy overly complex compared to just using pdftotext and then parsing the resulting ASCII text, unless of course there's OCR involved which would rule out this approach. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Is anyone making public transport routing maps basedon OpenStreetMap data?
Frederik Ramm wrote: > Soundy overly complex compared to just using pdftotext and then > parsing the resulting ASCII text, unless of course there's OCR > involved which would rule out this approach. Doesn't preserve the layout, in particular the columns, well enough. The UK rail timetable PDF is composed about as logically as you would expect for our dysfunctional railway system. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Is-anyone-making-public-transport-routing-maps-based-on-OpenStreetMap-data--tp21044201p21069208.html Sent from the OpenStreetMap - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Is anyone making public transport routing maps basedon OpenStreetMap data?
On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 03:02:17PM +, Peter Miller wrote: > Personally I also think it would be good to provide a way for people > to enter old timetables. I have a bradshaws 1921 railway timetable and > there is also a reprint for 1910. I am sure some people would love to > enter it into a DB so that could produce station maps and do journey > planning for the old network! Comparing it to current public transport times to see how much it has “improved” could be interesting. ☺ Simon -- A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that works.—John Gall signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Is anyone making public transport routing maps basedon OpenStreetMap data?
>I think that would be an excellent idea, however don't assume transit >authorities will always give you the data because they often won't for >various reasons. There is not however a problem as far as I know in >people collecting their own timetable information from printed >material and entering it into a common DV. What would be needed would >be a repository and a way of entering data. Some sort of AJAXy thing where an incomplete timetable is presented then people fill in the data (with operations available to repeat every hour) sounds good. GTFS is probably a good >starting point. Some data is already available from authorities in >that format. I do expect that more official data may be donated in >time, but people might need to be prepared to do it the hard way first. >Personally I also think it would be good to provide a way for people >to enter old timetables. I have a bradshaws 1921 railway timetable and >there is also a reprint for 1910. I am sure some people would love to >enter it into a DB so that could produce station maps and do journey >planning for the old network! >Are you in favour of a new list to discuss these sorts of things? Yes, sounds a good idea. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Is anyone making public transport routing maps basedon OpenStreetMap data?
On 18 Dec 2008, at 13:46, Nick Whitelegg wrote: >> I think that would be an excellent idea, however don't assume transit >> authorities will always give you the data because they often won't >> for >> various reasons. There is not however a problem as far as I know in >> people collecting their own timetable information from printed >> material and entering it into a common DV. What would be needed would >> be a repository and a way of entering data. > > Some sort of AJAXy thing where an incomplete timetable is presented > then > people fill in the data (with operations available to repeat every > hour) > sounds good. Personally I am reasonably convinced by the arguments being put forward that any sort of collection of timetable data may be open to challenge within Europe under the DB directive. I notice however that lots of PT data has been released in the USA under freedom of information act which is a curious thing to have to do to find when the buses run. For example http://www.gtfs-data-exchange.com/agency/port-authority-trans-hudson/ I suggest that this is another reason to keen the PT data separate from the OSM data. I was wondering however, if any of the authorities in gtfs-data- exchange would mind their data about the positioning of bus stops to be imported into OSM. Might be worth asking them at some point. The current bus stop positions are sometimes not that accurate in the official data. The data for Davis often puts bus stops in the middle of houses for example. Regards, Peter > > > GTFS is probably a good >> starting point. Some data is already available from authorities in >> that format. I do expect that more official data may be donated in >> time, but people might need to be prepared to do it the hard way >> first. > >> Personally I also think it would be good to provide a way for people >> to enter old timetables. I have a bradshaws 1921 railway timetable >> and >> there is also a reprint for 1910. I am sure some people would love to >> enter it into a DB so that could produce station maps and do journey >> planning for the old network! > >> Are you in favour of a new list to discuss these sorts of things? > > Yes, sounds a good idea. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Is anyone making public transport routing maps basedon OpenStreetMap data?
On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 1:46 PM, Nick Whitelegg wrote: >>I think that would be an excellent idea, however don't assume transit >>authorities will always give you the data because they often won't for >>various reasons. There is not however a problem as far as I know in >>people collecting their own timetable information from printed >>material and entering it into a common DV. What would be needed would >>be a repository and a way of entering data. > > Some sort of AJAXy thing where an incomplete timetable is presented then > people fill in the data (with operations available to repeat every hour) > sounds good. You can't crowdsource a timetable. You can't crowdsource the future without objective evidence. You can, however, crowdsource what has happened in the past, and use it to make list of when the trains usually used to run. But I have absolutely no interest in an application that says "trains usually ran on a Sunday at 10.35am up until last weekend" because I actually want to go *this* Sunday and I want to know when the trains are *going* to be running, which is in the future and the timetable changed this week[1]. So as far as I'm concerned, the only really useful source of timetables is whoever operates the service. Cheers, Andy [1] hypothetically, but actually did quite recently for the UK rail network, which is a useful illustration. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Is anyone making public transport routing maps basedon OpenStreetMap data?
On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 6:04 AM, Peter Miller wrote: > I was wondering however, if any of the authorities in gtfs-data- > exchange would mind their data about the positioning of bus stops to > be imported into OSM. Might be worth asking them at some point. The > current bus stop positions are sometimes not that accurate in the > official data. The data for Davis often puts bus stops in the middle > of houses for example. In my experience, transit agency folks are most concerned by the idea of others disseminating out-of-date/inaccurate information (as well as generally losing control of their "brand"), and ultimately the OSM project should be able to use this to its advantage. You correctly point out that licensing could be a challenge; even the GTFS data that's been intentionally released to the public is generally under custom licenses that were derived from what the other agencies have done. There's real work to be done to find terms that will meet the needs of both OSM and the transit agencies. You could go around making agreements agency-by-agency, but coming up with a standard open transit data license that agencies find palatable is a much juicier point of leverage for changing this world. Joe ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Is anyone making public transport routing maps basedon OpenStreetMap data?
On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 04:29:29PM +, Andy Allan wrote: > be running, which is in the future and the timetable changed this > week[1]. […] > [1] hypothetically, but actually did quite recently for the UK rail > network, which is a useful illustration. If you’re lucky they’ll give you advanced notice. ☺ So, what we really would like is public access to live feeds of raw data. Simon -- A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that works.—John Gall signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Is anyone making public transport routing maps basedon OpenStreetMap data?
>You can't crowdsource a timetable. You can't crowdsource the future >without objective evidence. >You can, however, crowdsource what has happened in the past, and use >it to make list of when the trains usually used to run. But I have >absolutely no interest in an application that says "trains usually ran >on a Sunday at 10.35am up until last weekend" because I actually want >to go *this* Sunday and I want to know when the trains are *going* to >be running, which is in the future and the timetable changed this >week[1]. >So as far as I'm concerned, the only really useful source of >timetables is whoever operates the service. Whilst there may be copyright issues in doing this in practice, there is in theory a good reason for having an independent source of timetable data: you could offer web API functionality that the actual rail/bus companies are not offering, which aids the integration of the data into other sites. Also it allows the development of independent train/bus journey planners which the individual companies may not wish to develop themselves. Nick ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Is anyone making public transport routing maps basedon OpenStreetMap data?
On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 2:41 PM, Nick Whitelegg wrote: >>You can't crowdsource a timetable. You can't crowdsource the future >>without objective evidence. > >>You can, however, crowdsource what has happened in the past, and use >>it to make list of when the trains usually used to run. But I have >>absolutely no interest in an application that says "trains usually ran >>on a Sunday at 10.35am up until last weekend" because I actually want >>to go *this* Sunday and I want to know when the trains are *going* to >>be running, which is in the future and the timetable changed this >>week[1]. > >>So as far as I'm concerned, the only really useful source of >>timetables is whoever operates the service. > > Whilst there may be copyright issues in doing this in practice, there is > in theory a good reason for having an independent source of timetable > data: you could offer web API functionality that the actual rail/bus > companies are not offering, which aids the integration of the data into > other sites. Also it allows the development of independent train/bus > journey planners which the individual companies may not wish to develop > themselves. I'm not arguing that the timetable information shouldn't be made freely available, since I've got every confidence in the power of the crowds to come up with useful and novel things. I'm just saying that in the case of timetables, unlike the geodata that we're familiar with in OSM, I don't think it's crowd-sourceable. Unless we send people one at a time to the ticket office and say "what trains will leave between 10am and 11am this Sunday", note it in a PDA and re-join the back of the queue... Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
