Re: [OSM-talk] Links from wiki* back into OSM

[Lester Caine]

( Done it again )
On 28/09/17 11:57, Andy Mabbett wrote:
>> I have found wikidata entries that don't have wikipedia pages and I would
>> expect that but it would be nice to have confirmation that this is
>> actual practice?
> Yes, it is. for example this:
> 
> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q18983100
> 
> is the Wikidata item about an ornamental gate, made by a locally
> well-known artist, which exists in OSM as:
> 
>https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2312982822
> 
> Never in a million years will it qualify for its own Wikipedia article.

That is exactly the sort of object I'm talking about :)
wikidata links to an image and the Artists page, but the Artists page
does not link to the Gate back to the wikidata object. I would expect
other data to be added to the notes entry on the Artists page, but
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Tolkien has no way to add the anchor
for each object on his Catalogue? Moving forward, every artist's
catalogue would be a list on wikidata and managed from that list?

Another simple example from the wikidata walk through is the location of
the headstone for Douglas Adams burial in Highgate cemetery. wikidata
should probably have an object for that with links to Highgate cemetery
and OSM could have a complete set of all gravestones on the site, or
link to an external copy of that list.

-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Links from wiki* back into OSM (was: Overlapping brands)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-09-28 13:28 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :

> If their first language doesn't use Latin roots they will also have to
> look up "name".
>


sorry, seems "name" has Germanic roots.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Links from wiki* back into OSM (was: Overlapping brands)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-09-28 10:53 GMT+02:00 Andy Townsend :

> On 28/09/2017 09:28, Jo wrote:
> Many mappers (especially those with a first language that doesn't use many
> Greek roots) will I suspect struggle with what "name:etymology:wikidata"
> actually means.
>
>


maybe, but they could look it up. If their first language doesn't use Latin
roots they will also have to look up "name".
While I don't want to endorse this specific tag, I don't think we should
criticize it based on the tag name (which IMHO is quite precise and
self-explanatory). Yes, if you completely miss any european cultural
background, all tags are difficult (and this is not limited to the word
"etymology").

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Links from wiki* back into OSM

[Jo]

Here is an entry I added to Wikidata:

https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q37873776

I tried to create a Wikipedia article for it, but it got shot down
immediately. Wikipedia doesn't like companies, even if they do provide
public transport services and even if it's a red link in another article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dakar_Dem_Dikk_Workers_Democratic_Union=797050840=411077118

I don't expect the wikidata entry to be removed. It conforms to their
inclusion rule 2. If they do remove it for some unfathomable reason, our
links will indeed go stale. That's too bad.

Polyglot


2017-09-28 12:53 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :

>
>
> 2017-09-28 12:07 GMT+02:00 Jo :
>
>> My experience is that adding something we map (or refer to like the name
>> of a mayor) to Wikipedia is absurdly hard to accomplish. Adding it to
>> Wikidata is trivially easy in comparison. So the inclusion rules for
>> Wikipedia and Wikidata are very different too. This also means that not
>> every entry present in Wikidata will have a Wikipedia article. It might
>> have an article in one of the other Wikimedia projects, or it might only
>> exist in other projects like OpenStreetMap. I added thousands of schools in
>> Uganda to Wikidata, if you want an example.
>>
>
>
>
> The criteria for inclusion in wikidata are here:
> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Notability
>
> Basically the object has to meet at least one of these requirements:
>
> 1. link to an object in a wikimedia project
> 2. refers to an instance of a clearly identifiable conceptual or material
> entity
> 3. It fulfills some structural need, for example: it is needed to make
> statements made in other items more useful.
>
>
> The fact that nobody has yet removed what you have added doesn't mean it
> won't be removed in the future (similarly to how wikipedia articles I had
> linked from osm have been removed after many years), e.g. a (leftist)
> comunity centre was dismissed, in a second attempt, as "localism", "not
> known to the major part of the population", the articles in national
> newspapers about it dismissed as "not relevant" (or "could go into
> wikinews"). There was a first attempt to delete the page which didn't pass,
> so the deletionists tried again until they succeeded:
> https://it.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Speciale:Registri
> =CSOA_La_Strada
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Links from wiki* back into OSM

[Andy Mabbett]

On 28 September 2017 at 11:41, Lester Caine  wrote:

> I have found wikidata entries that don't have wikipedia pages and I would
> expect that but it would be nice to have confirmation that this is
> actual practice?

Yes, it is. for example this:

https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q18983100

is the Wikidata item about an ornamental gate, made by a locally
well-known artist, which exists in OSM as:

   https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2312982822

Never in a million years will it qualify for its own Wikipedia article.

-- 
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@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [OSM-talk] Links from wiki* back into OSM

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-09-28 12:07 GMT+02:00 Jo :

> My experience is that adding something we map (or refer to like the name
> of a mayor) to Wikipedia is absurdly hard to accomplish. Adding it to
> Wikidata is trivially easy in comparison. So the inclusion rules for
> Wikipedia and Wikidata are very different too. This also means that not
> every entry present in Wikidata will have a Wikipedia article. It might
> have an article in one of the other Wikimedia projects, or it might only
> exist in other projects like OpenStreetMap. I added thousands of schools in
> Uganda to Wikidata, if you want an example.
>



The criteria for inclusion in wikidata are here:
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Notability

Basically the object has to meet at least one of these requirements:

1. link to an object in a wikimedia project
2. refers to an instance of a clearly identifiable conceptual or material
entity
3. It fulfills some structural need, for example: it is needed to make
statements made in other items more useful.


The fact that nobody has yet removed what you have added doesn't mean it
won't be removed in the future (similarly to how wikipedia articles I had
linked from osm have been removed after many years), e.g. a (leftist)
comunity centre was dismissed, in a second attempt, as "localism", "not
known to the major part of the population", the articles in national
newspapers about it dismissed as "not relevant" (or "could go into
wikinews"). There was a first attempt to delete the page which didn't pass,
so the deletionists tried again until they succeeded:
https://it.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Speciale:
Registri=CSOA_La_Strada

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Links from wiki* back into OSM

[Lester Caine]

On 28/09/17 10:55, Andy Townsend wrote:
> Obviously wikipedia/wikidata's rules for inclusion are very different to
> ours (in some cases the opposite - wikipedia says "no original research
> - please copy from some other source").  There are plenty of examples of
> things that people think should be in wikipedia and aren't, and also
> things that shouldn't be in wikipedia/wikidata (because they don't
> exist) and are.

While I'm not up to speed with the latest state of play on wikidata, I
understand that it is a lot better at inclusion than wikipedia. My main
complaint about wikipedia has always been that it is rather to 'elite'
in the way it blocks articles someone takes a negative view about. I
have found wikidata entries that don't have wikipedia pages and I would
expect that but it would be nice to have confirmation that this is
actual practice?

In the UK taking an open source list and adding it to wikidata should be
a starting point for things like say 'streets', but many of those
objects do not need wikipedia articles, just an automatically generated
page from wikidata direct. My own problem is that buildings on those
streets add another order of magnitude of of objects and should every
one have a wikidata id? OSM in many areas does have a large number of
objects against which building details can be added ... such as the
brand/operator/chain of the shop or service located at the property. In
the UK, NLPG provides ( if it was open sourced ) a complete list of
properties in the UK, and would be the best source for an accurate list
against which to work. Add similar databases around the world and one
can build a complete model of the whole world. Not something I think
wikidata would want to duplicate fully? But wikidata could perhaps
provide links to the other databases containing fine detail much like
the NSG lists streets which are then used as the base for NLPG objects.

On my day job I've got material that needs indexing, and more often than
not there is no article on wikipedia or in wikidata and at that point I
have a chicken and egg problem. Do I create a wikidata stub so I have
the ID with which to cross reference ... do I add a stub wikipedia
article ... or do I just manage things with my own id's. OSM only comes
into the picture here in managing and displaying location data but it's
the ID of premises such as birth, death and activity locations that
overlay all the objects I'm working with. Premises listed on the UK
national census are a typical fairly reliable source I'm working with
daily ...

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

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Re: [OSM-talk] Links from wiki* back into OSM

[Andy Mabbett]

On 28 September 2017 at 11:23, Andy Townsend  wrote:
> On 28/09/2017 11:13, Andy Mabbett wrote:
>>
>> On 28 September 2017 at 09:53, Andy Townsend  wrote:
>>
>>> "objects named after Leuven"
>>> I'd have thought that this sort of "extra non-geographical information"
>>> was
>>> better held outside of OSM, and then link back into OSM via e.g.
>>> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/wikidata=Q118958 or even
>>> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/wikipedia=nl%3ALeuven
>>
>> Objects named after Leuven MUST NOT be tagged "wikidata=Q118958", nor
>> "wikipedia=:Leuven"
>>
> Indeed, and I'm not suggesting that they should be.  Please read what I said
> (at least once before posting).

Please dial down the snark. I read what you wrote, more than once,
because it was not clear what you meant; but on re-reading that was
indeed what you seemed to suggest.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [OSM-talk] Links from wiki* back into OSM

[Andy Townsend]

On 28/09/2017 11:13, Andy Mabbett wrote:

On 28 September 2017 at 09:53, Andy Townsend  wrote:


"objects named after Leuven"
I'd have thought that this sort of "extra non-geographical information" was
better held outside of OSM, and then link back into OSM via e.g.
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/wikidata=Q118958 or even
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/wikipedia=nl%3ALeuven

Objects named after Leuven MUST NOT be tagged "wikidata=Q118958", nor
"wikipedia=:Leuven"

Indeed, and I'm not suggesting that they should be.  Please read what I 
said (at least once before posting).





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Re: [OSM-talk] Links from wiki* back into OSM (was: Overlapping brands)

[Andy Mabbett]

On 28 September 2017 at 09:53, Andy Townsend  wrote:

> "objects named after Leuven"

> I'd have thought that this sort of "extra non-geographical information" was
> better held outside of OSM, and then link back into OSM via e.g.
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/wikidata=Q118958 or even
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/wikipedia=nl%3ALeuven

Objects named after Leuven MUST NOT be tagged "wikidata=Q118958", nor
"wikipedia=:Leuven"

-- 
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@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [OSM-talk] Links from wiki* back into OSM

[Jo]

My experience is that adding something we map (or refer to like the name of
a mayor) to Wikipedia is absurdly hard to accomplish. Adding it to Wikidata
is trivially easy in comparison. So the inclusion rules for Wikipedia and
Wikidata are very different too. This also means that not every entry
present in Wikidata will have a Wikipedia article. It might have an article
in one of the other Wikimedia projects, or it might only exist in other
projects like OpenStreetMap. I added thousands of schools in Uganda to
Wikidata, if you want an example.

https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q23742566

I also found way to refer back to OpenStreetMap through the reference url
property of the coordinate location. License wise this shouldn't be a
problem, as I helped out with the import of those schools into OSM. It
might be trickier to do this for objects that only exist in OSM, due to the
difference in license between both projects.


Polyglot

2017-09-28 11:55 GMT+02:00 Andy Townsend :

> On 28/09/2017 10:36, Marc Gemis wrote:
>
>> Andy are you now saying that it is OK to have 1 wikidata tag on each
>> street, so someone can create an external list of streets with
>> Wikidata ids to represent some kind of collection (like "all streets
>> named after Leuven") ?
>>
> Firstly I'm not saying "what is or is not OK" - that's essentially the
> point of this discussion, to find out what people do think.
>
> What I'm saying is that the expression of that sort of relationship
> possibly doesn't belong in OSM itself (because it's not really
> on-the-ground verifiable, or at least in many cases it won't be).
>
> If a street passed whatever tests wikipedia impose to have a wikipedia
> entry, and by inference a wikidata one (wikidata items essentially being
> all created from wikipedia, with links added later) then yes, by all means
> add a wikipedia/wikidata link to the OSM object, then add your "etymology"
> link within wikidata.
>
> Obviously wikipedia/wikidata's rules for inclusion are very different to
> ours (in some cases the opposite - wikipedia says "no original research -
> please copy from some other source").  There are plenty of examples of
> things that people think should be in wikipedia and aren't, and also things
> that shouldn't be in wikipedia/wikidata (because they don't exist) and are.
>
> Best Regards,
> Andy
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Links from wiki* back into OSM

[Marc Gemis]

O, I even believe that e.g. all (or a large number of) Dutch streets
are in Wikidata without having a Wikipedia article for the individual
streets.

On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 12:03 PM, Marc Gemis  wrote:
> Thanks for explaining, Andy.
>
> Please note that as I said before, it is not true that there is a
> Wikipedia article for each Wikidata item. E.g.  There is a whole group
>  working on inventarising art in musea. They do create Wikidata items,
> but no Wikipedia articles for the individual items. It is true that
> each Wikipedia article (or page) has a Wikidata entry, but not the
> other way around.
>
> regards
>
> m
>
> On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 11:55 AM, Andy Townsend  wrote:
>> On 28/09/2017 10:36, Marc Gemis wrote:
>>>
>>> Andy are you now saying that it is OK to have 1 wikidata tag on each
>>> street, so someone can create an external list of streets with
>>> Wikidata ids to represent some kind of collection (like "all streets
>>> named after Leuven") ?
>>
>> Firstly I'm not saying "what is or is not OK" - that's essentially the point
>> of this discussion, to find out what people do think.
>>
>> What I'm saying is that the expression of that sort of relationship possibly
>> doesn't belong in OSM itself (because it's not really on-the-ground
>> verifiable, or at least in many cases it won't be).
>>
>> If a street passed whatever tests wikipedia impose to have a wikipedia
>> entry, and by inference a wikidata one (wikidata items essentially being all
>> created from wikipedia, with links added later) then yes, by all means add a
>> wikipedia/wikidata link to the OSM object, then add your "etymology" link
>> within wikidata.
>>
>> Obviously wikipedia/wikidata's rules for inclusion are very different to
>> ours (in some cases the opposite - wikipedia says "no original research -
>> please copy from some other source").  There are plenty of examples of
>> things that people think should be in wikipedia and aren't, and also things
>> that shouldn't be in wikipedia/wikidata (because they don't exist) and are.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>> Andy
>>

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Re: [OSM-talk] Links from wiki* back into OSM

[Marc Gemis]

Thanks for explaining, Andy.

Please note that as I said before, it is not true that there is a
Wikipedia article for each Wikidata item. E.g.  There is a whole group
 working on inventarising art in musea. They do create Wikidata items,
but no Wikipedia articles for the individual items. It is true that
each Wikipedia article (or page) has a Wikidata entry, but not the
other way around.

regards

m

On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 11:55 AM, Andy Townsend  wrote:
> On 28/09/2017 10:36, Marc Gemis wrote:
>>
>> Andy are you now saying that it is OK to have 1 wikidata tag on each
>> street, so someone can create an external list of streets with
>> Wikidata ids to represent some kind of collection (like "all streets
>> named after Leuven") ?
>
> Firstly I'm not saying "what is or is not OK" - that's essentially the point
> of this discussion, to find out what people do think.
>
> What I'm saying is that the expression of that sort of relationship possibly
> doesn't belong in OSM itself (because it's not really on-the-ground
> verifiable, or at least in many cases it won't be).
>
> If a street passed whatever tests wikipedia impose to have a wikipedia
> entry, and by inference a wikidata one (wikidata items essentially being all
> created from wikipedia, with links added later) then yes, by all means add a
> wikipedia/wikidata link to the OSM object, then add your "etymology" link
> within wikidata.
>
> Obviously wikipedia/wikidata's rules for inclusion are very different to
> ours (in some cases the opposite - wikipedia says "no original research -
> please copy from some other source").  There are plenty of examples of
> things that people think should be in wikipedia and aren't, and also things
> that shouldn't be in wikipedia/wikidata (because they don't exist) and are.
>
> Best Regards,
> Andy
>

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Re: [OSM-talk] Links from wiki* back into OSM

[Andy Townsend]

On 28/09/2017 10:36, Marc Gemis wrote:

Andy are you now saying that it is OK to have 1 wikidata tag on each
street, so someone can create an external list of streets with
Wikidata ids to represent some kind of collection (like "all streets
named after Leuven") ?
Firstly I'm not saying "what is or is not OK" - that's essentially the 
point of this discussion, to find out what people do think.


What I'm saying is that the expression of that sort of relationship 
possibly doesn't belong in OSM itself (because it's not really 
on-the-ground verifiable, or at least in many cases it won't be).


If a street passed whatever tests wikipedia impose to have a wikipedia 
entry, and by inference a wikidata one (wikidata items essentially being 
all created from wikipedia, with links added later) then yes, by all 
means add a wikipedia/wikidata link to the OSM object, then add your 
"etymology" link within wikidata.


Obviously wikipedia/wikidata's rules for inclusion are very different to 
ours (in some cases the opposite - wikipedia says "no original research 
- please copy from some other source").  There are plenty of examples of 
things that people think should be in wikipedia and aren't, and also 
things that shouldn't be in wikipedia/wikidata (because they don't 
exist) and are.


Best Regards,
Andy


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Re: [OSM-talk] Links from wiki* back into OSM (was: Overlapping brands)

[Marc Gemis]

Andy are you now saying that it is OK to have 1 wikidata tag on each
street, so someone can create an external list of streets with
Wikidata ids to represent some kind of collection (like "all streets
named after Leuven") ?

m.

On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 10:53 AM, Andy Townsend  wrote:
> On 28/09/2017 09:28, Jo wrote:
>>
>>
>> All OSM objects with a name (in several languages) referring to a city.
>> More zoomed in:
>> http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/s20
>>
> ... except that it isn't necessarily "all objects" - it's "a list of objects
> in OSM manually curated by you".  You're still going to have to monitor
> changes to those objects and look for new instances of "objects named after
> Leuven" in the real world and newly added to OSM.  You happen to be using a
> "name:etymology:wikidata" key in OSM to do this, but frankly you could keep
> that list anywhere - it doesn't depend on "etymology" wikidata tags in OSM.
> Many mappers (especially those with a first language that doesn't use many
> Greek roots) will I suspect struggle with what "name:etymology:wikidata"
> actually means.
>
> I'd have thought that this sort of "extra non-geographical information" was
> better held outside of OSM, and then link back into OSM via e.g.
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/wikidata=Q118958 or even
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/wikipedia=nl%3ALeuven .
>
> I'm not saying that it isn't a great project - it's exactly the sort of
> thing that many OSMers do for many different sorts of data.  I'm just not
> convinced that it depends on the ability to create more and more
> unverifiable keys within OSM.
>
> Best Regards,
> Andy
>
>
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