Re: [OSM-talk] Map Co-ordinates for towns, etc in UK
On 3/3/2012 8:24 PM, John F. Eldredge wrote: We don't have zero-point markers in the USA, either, at least not from my experience. However, the highway departments seem to be referring to some point in or near the center of the cities, judging from the distances shown. Sometimes it's to the center (usually the courthouse or city hall?) and sometimes to the city limits. The only zero point I know of (that's not intended for only one road) is the Zero Milestone in DC, and its use never caught on. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Map Co-ordinates for towns, etc in UK
On 3/6/2012 8:53 AM, Lynn W. Deffenbaugh (Mr) wrote: On 3/3/2012 9:04 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote: Sometimes it's to the center (usually the courthouse or city hall?) and sometimes to the city limits. The only zero point I know of (that's not intended for only one road) is the Zero Milestone in DC, and its use never caught on. There's also Mile 0 for US 1 in Key West. That's for one route. Most routes with mileposts have a mile 0, but it's where the route begins, not necessarily some sort of town center. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Map Co-ordinates for towns, etc in UK
mick bare...@tpg.com.au wrote: My original interest was if there was a specific point that said 'this is Sometown', where distances to adjacent towns were measured from, similar to the Australian convention where the Zero Point was set along the roadside, at the Post Office which was usually next door to or across the road from a 'coaching inn'. This point rarely had anything to do with the geographic centre of town but served only as a survey benchmark. As Phillip, yourself and a few other people have pointed out these points have little remaining relevance in current times, especially for routing. The only place where I've found this concept still in use is Queensland Rail's Brisbane suburban network, where the track at stations is marked with the distance to Central Station and the markings are maintained. mick Here in the USA, highways commonly have signs stating the distance to the next major town. Are such distance signs no longer used in Australia? -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Map Co-ordinates for towns, etc in UK
Am 03.03.2012 15:15, schrieb John F. Eldredge: Here in the USA, highways commonly have signs stating the distance to the next major town. Are such distance signs no longer used in Australia? In Germany these signs exist, but the distances refer to different locations. The sign located at the town border shows the next town's/villages name (along the street) and a distance to the mentioned town. This distance is the distance along the street up to the point where you enter the other town. A sign in the middle of a road or inside a town, referring to another town or city in contrast AFAIK refers to the center of that city - whatever that is. regards Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Map Co-ordinates for towns, etc in UK
On Sat, 03 Mar 2012 08:15:00 -0600 John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: mick bare...@tpg.com.au wrote: My original interest was if there was a specific point that said 'this is Sometown', where distances to adjacent towns were measured from, similar to the Australian convention where the Zero Point was set along the roadside, at the Post Office which was usually next door to or across the road from a 'coaching inn'. This point rarely had anything to do with the geographic centre of town but served only as a survey benchmark. As Phillip, yourself and a few other people have pointed out these points have little remaining relevance in current times, especially for routing. The only place where I've found this concept still in use is Queensland Rail's Brisbane suburban network, where the track at stations is marked with the distance to Central Station and the markings are maintained. mick Here in the USA, highways commonly have signs stating the distance to the next major town. Are such distance signs no longer used in Australia? Prior to metric conversion in 1976 Australia used white concrete posts about 1 yard tall with town initials distances each way as in http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a4/Milestone_Batemans_Bay_NSW_18.JPG/90px-Milestone_Batemans_Bay_NSW_18.JPG After conversion they were replaced with International Standard metal shields on an 8ft metal post every 5KM. With the change they no longer marked the Zero Point. mick ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Map Co-ordinates for towns, etc in UK
On Sun, Mar 4, 2012 at 1:15 AM, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: Here in the USA, highways commonly have signs stating the distance to the next major town. Are such distance signs no longer used in Australia? Yes - usually abbreviated to just one or two letters, eg MB 40 might mean 40km to Mt Beauty. But I don't think we have precise markers indicating where exactly in town those distances are taken from. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Map Co-ordinates for towns, etc in UK
Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Mar 4, 2012 at 1:15 AM, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: Here in the USA, highways commonly have signs stating the distance to the next major town. Are such distance signs no longer used in Australia? Yes - usually abbreviated to just one or two letters, eg MB 40 might mean 40km to Mt Beauty. But I don't think we have precise markers indicating where exactly in town those distances are taken from. Steve We don't have zero-point markers in the USA, either, at least not from my experience. However, the highway departments seem to be referring to some point in or near the center of the cities, judging from the distances shown. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Map Co-ordinates for towns, etc in UK
I have found some interesting stuff whilst playing with routing on http://open.mapquest.org (which uses OSM). Have found that it cannot route to Shrewsbury. Have found that the town waypoint has been put in the middle of a retail area, with pedestrianised streets around. Am guessing it is because it is too far from a road. It works if I ask for High Street, Shrewsbury. Have moved it so that it is close to High Street and once mapquest has updated the map I will see if it works again. But maybe this is something else we should consider. A good example of TomTom/google getting it wrong is Ironbridge, where it leads you into a back street, rather than the centre i.e. the bridge. Phil ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Map Co-ordinates for towns, etc in UK
On Fri, 02 Mar 2012 20:16:18 + Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: I have found some interesting stuff whilst playing with routing on http://open.mapquest.org (which uses OSM). Have found that it cannot route to Shrewsbury. Have found that the town waypoint has been put in the middle of a retail area, with pedestrianised streets around. Am guessing it is because it is too far from a road. It works if I ask for High Street, Shrewsbury. Have moved it so that it is close to High Street and once mapquest has updated the map I will see if it works again. But maybe this is something else we should consider. A good example of TomTom/google getting it wrong is Ironbridge, where it leads you into a back street, rather than the centre i.e. the bridge. My Navman (MY50 I think) also has problems generating a route to just a town or suburb without a street name. At the times these towns developed very few people had a car and even fewer had sat-nav units so the 'rule of thumb' didn't need to take vehicular access into account. Now social engineers have had their evil way, the 'rule' joins dinosaurs, woolly mammoths and this old System/370 operator on the dusty shelves of the museum and its up to the new generations to clean up our mess. mick ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Map Co-ordinates for towns, etc in UK
mick bare...@tpg.com.au wrote: On Fri, 02 Mar 2012 20:16:18 + Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: I have found some interesting stuff whilst playing with routing on http://open.mapquest.org (which uses OSM). Have found that it cannot route to Shrewsbury. Have found that the town waypoint has been put in the middle of a retail area, with pedestrianised streets around. Am guessing it is because it is too far from a road. It works if I ask for High Street, Shrewsbury. Have moved it so that it is close to High Street and once mapquest has updated the map I will see if it works again. But maybe this is something else we should consider. A good example of TomTom/google getting it wrong is Ironbridge, where it leads you into a back street, rather than the centre i.e. the bridge. My Navman (MY50 I think) also has problems generating a route to just a town or suburb without a street name. At the times these towns developed very few people had a car and even fewer had sat-nav units so the 'rule of thumb' didn't need to take vehicular access into account. Now social engineers have had their evil way, the 'rule' joins dinosaurs, woolly mammoths and this old System/370 operator on the dusty shelves of the museum and its up to the new generations to clean up our mess. mick Another issue you are likely to encounter is a town that has grown in an asymmetric manner, so that the current geometric center is offset, perhaps by a large amount, from the historic center point. This is particularly true where a natural barrier, such as a lake, adjoins the town. Here in the USA, some small towns that have experienced most of their growth during the automobile age are essentially one-dimensional, extending for several miles along a main road, but extending only a block or two at right angles to that main road. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Map Co-ordinates for towns, etc in UK
On Fri, 02 Mar 2012 21:14:47 -0600 John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: mick bare...@tpg.com.au wrote: On Fri, 02 Mar 2012 20:16:18 + Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: I have found some interesting stuff whilst playing with routing on http://open.mapquest.org (which uses OSM). Have found that it cannot route to Shrewsbury. Have found that the town waypoint has been put in the middle of a retail area, with pedestrianised streets around. Am guessing it is because it is too far from a road. It works if I ask for High Street, Shrewsbury. Have moved it so that it is close to High Street and once mapquest has updated the map I will see if it works again. But maybe this is something else we should consider. A good example of TomTom/google getting it wrong is Ironbridge, where it leads you into a back street, rather than the centre i.e. the bridge. My Navman (MY50 I think) also has problems generating a route to just a town or suburb without a street name. At the times these towns developed very few people had a car and even fewer had sat-nav units so the 'rule of thumb' didn't need to take vehicular access into account. Now social engineers have had their evil way, the 'rule' joins dinosaurs, woolly mammoths and this old System/370 operator on the dusty shelves of the museum and its up to the new generations to clean up our mess. mick Another issue you are likely to encounter is a town that has grown in an asymmetric manner, so that the current geometric center is offset, perhaps by a large amount, from the historic center point. This is particularly true where a natural barrier, such as a lake, adjoins the town. Here in the USA, some small towns that have experienced most of their growth during the automobile age are essentially one-dimensional, extending for several miles along a main road, but extending only a block or two at right angles to that main road. My original interest was if there was a specific point that said 'this is Sometown', where distances to adjacent towns were measured from, similar to the Australian convention where the Zero Point was set at the roadside, at the Post Office which was usually next door to or across the road from a 'coaching inn'. This point rarely had anything to do with the geographic centre of town but served only as a survey benchmark. As Phillip, yourself and a few other people have pointed out these points have little remaining relevance in current times, especially for routing. The only place where I've found this concept still in use is Queensland Rail's Brisbane suburban network, where the track at stations is marked with the distance to Central Station and the markings are maintained. mick ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Map Co-ordinates for towns, etc in UK
On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 09:15:34AM +1000, mick wrote: That make a lot of sense to me, the church has been the focal point of the village since Saxon times while the Post Office didn't appear until the 19th? century. Except there are cases where the village moved and but the church didn't. I'm sure there's an analogy there, but the story is usually to do with the plague. http://osm.org/go/eu4ZR1EK http://osm.org/go/euIt96kj http://osm.org/go/0EBodHMD http://osm.org/go/eue~gzbb s ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Map Co-ordinates for towns, etc in UK
We're kinda proud of the fact that the government doesn't bother with such things as defining the centre of the town (or seasons). It's just one of those things that makes us different from ze French. So the place tag will be wherever people feel like (usually the nearest open space to the centre of town, to help rendering). And you should choose your own centre of the town for measurement purposes. I suppose we could crowdsource a set of zeropoints if someone comes up with an appropriate tag. Just don't expect the place tags to be in the same location. Richard On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 1:14 AM, mick bare...@tpg.com.au wrote: I hope this isn't off-topic, if so I apologise. Can some one advise me of the official policy for locating the centre of towns in the UK, i.e. the spot on the map for a point representing the town and used as the Zero Point for measuring distances to other towns. In Australia this was taken as the centre of the road and the middle of the plot of land occupied by Post Office and marked by a triangular concrete mile post painted white with black characters about 1 metre high with a bevelled top. the vertical faces visibly from the road indicated the distance to the next town in the direction of travel. The upper face on the '0' post showed the distance to the state capital. I was told this by a NSW Dept of Main Roads Clerk of Works about 1973. When the roads went metric in 1976 these posts rapidly disappeared, replaced by International Standard metal posts with green shields marking the 5 KM intervals but with no 'Zero Post'. A few towns kept their Zero Posts and moved them to a park. mick ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Map Co-ordinates for towns, etc in UK
London distances are, I believe, measured from Marble Arch. Phil On 24/02/2012 8:23 Richard Mann wrote: We're kinda proud of the fact that the government doesn't bother with such things as defining the centre of the town (or seasons). It's just one of those things that makes us different from ze French. So the place tag will be wherever people feel like (usually the nearest open space to the centre of town, to help rendering). And you should choose your own centre of the town for measurement purposes. I suppose we could crowdsource a set of zeropoints if someone comes up with an appropriate tag. Just don't expect the place tags to be in the same location. Richard On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 1:14 AM, mick bare...@tpg.com.au wrote: I hope this isn't off-topic, if so I apologise. Can some one advise me of the official policy for locating the centre of towns in the UK, i.e. the spot on the map for a point representing the town and used as the Zero Point for measuring distances to other towns. In Australia this was taken as the centre of the road and the middle of the plot of land occupied by Post Office and marked by a triangular concrete mile post painted white with black characters about 1 metre high with a bevelled top. the vertical faces visibly from the road indicated the distance to the next town in the direction of travel. The upper face on the '0' post showed the distance to the state capital. I was told this by a NSW Dept of Main Roads Clerk of Works about 1973. When the roads went metric in 1976 these posts rapidly disappeared, replaced by International Standard metal posts with green shields marking the 5 KM intervals but with no 'Zero Post'. A few towns kept their Zero Posts and moved them to a park. mick ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Map Co-ordinates for towns, etc in UK
On 24/02/12 08:42, p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: London distances are, I believe, measured from Marble Arch. I always understood it to be Charing Cross and wikipedia seems to agree: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charing_cross#Official_use_as_central_point That is the only one that I know in the UK though, and I suspect there is no fixed rule for working it out. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Map Co-ordinates for towns, etc in UK
kenneth gonsalves wrote: Can some one advise me of the official policy for locating the centre of towns in the UK, i.e. the spot on the map for a point representing the town and used as the Zero Point for measuring distances to other towns. in India it is usually the head post office. In the UK nowadays you will be lucky to find a post office at all ... ;) -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Map Co-ordinates for towns, etc in UK
The logical centre and the geometrical centre aren't necessarily anywhere near each other --- for example, what is generally thought of as the city centre of Cambridge UK is some way west of the crossing point between the lines between the northmost and southmost, and westmost and eastmost, points of the outline of the city. (I tried drawing those lines a few years ago, they crossed in Mill Road Cemetery, which makes it the dead centre of the city ;-) ) __John ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Map Co-ordinates for towns, etc in UK
On Fri, 2012-02-24 at 09:20 +, Lester Caine wrote: kenneth gonsalves wrote: Can some one advise me of the official policy for locating the centre of towns in the UK, i.e. the spot on the map for a point representing the town and used as the Zero Point for measuring distances to other towns. in India it is usually the head post office. In the UK nowadays you will be lucky to find a post office at all ... ;) our post offices have very little to do with letters nowadays. Although most of them have vanished, localities are still centered on where the post office was. -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Map Co-ordinates for towns, etc in UK
I don't know if any UK towns use an addressing grid. Locally, when the grid zero point lies within the downtown area, I've used this (e.g. the intersection of Orange and Central in Orlando). ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Map Co-ordinates for towns, etc in UK
If you refer to old OS maps the location of the place name seems most often to be positioned in relation to certain specific features. Where there is a parish church they seem to use that, where not its often the post office or the village pub, if none of these are present then some central other communal feature of the hamlet for instance. Of course this could just be a be cartographic approach taken by the OS. Cheers Andy -Original Message- From: Lester Caine [mailto:les...@lsces.co.uk] Sent: 24 February 2012 09:20 To: OSM Talk Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Map Co-ordinates for towns, etc in UK kenneth gonsalves wrote: Can some one advise me of the official policy for locating the centre of towns in the UK, i.e. the spot on the map for a point representing the town and used as the Zero Point for measuring distances to other towns. in India it is usually the head post office. In the UK nowadays you will be lucky to find a post office at all ... ;) -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Map Co-ordinates for towns, etc in UK
There is no grid system for UK towns, however where the main post office is or was is a reasonable approach to positioning the town centre. In terms of villages the church is usually the best. On 24/02/2012 11:39 Nathan Edgars II wrote: I don't know if any UK towns use an addressing grid. Locally, when the grid zero point lies within the downtown area, I've used this (e.g. the intersection of Orange and Central in Orlando). ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Map Co-ordinates for towns, etc in UK
Philip Barnes wrote: in an unknown village if you want to find the pub, head for the church. Or in a cathedral city...: http://www.imbibit.co.uk/ (shame it's a Google map, though) cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Map-Co-ordinates-for-towns-etc-in-UK-tp5510568p5512719.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Map Co-ordinates for towns, etc in UK
Richard Fairhurst wrote: (shame it's a Google map, though) Indeed. According to Google someone has knocked down Derby cathedral and rebuilt it across the road. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Map Co-ordinates for towns, etc in UK
On Fri, 24 Feb 2012 09:20:13 + Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: kenneth gonsalves wrote: Can some one advise me of the official policy for locating the centre of towns in the UK, i.e. the spot on the map for a point representing the town and used as the Zero Point for measuring distances to other towns. in India it is usually the head post office. In the UK nowadays you will be lucky to find a post office at all ... ;) Australia is going the same way in moving to Postal Agents and relocating the remaining Post Offices to obscure, out of the way locations so I doubt there is any formal criteria to define these points. They are becoming 'just another curious folk-way', as evidenced by the lack of 'Zero-Points' in .au since metric conversion. thanks mick ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Map Co-ordinates for towns, etc in UK
On Fri, 24 Feb 2012 12:45:06 + p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: There is no grid system for UK towns, however where the main post office is or was is a reasonable approach to positioning the town centre. In terms of villages the church is usually the best. That make a lot of sense to me, the church has been the focal point of the village since Saxon times while the Post Office didn't appear until the 19th? century. mick ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Map Co-ordinates for towns, etc in UK
On Fri, 24 Feb 2012 12:31:31 - Andy Robinson ajrli...@gmail.com wrote: If you refer to old OS maps the location of the place name seems most often to be positioned in relation to certain specific features. Where there is a parish church they seem to use that, where not its often the post office or the village pub, if none of these are present then some central other communal feature of the hamlet for instance. Of course this could just be a be cartographic approach taken by the OS. Cheers Andy This suggests that there is no formal definition for placement of the Zero Point and a common sense approach is taken. From a number of hints in some of the genealogy lists I'm on, in .au the post office and a 'coaching inn' were usually either next door to or opposite each other and sometimes they were the same building. thanks mick ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Map Co-ordinates for towns, etc in UK
On Fri, 2012-02-24 at 11:14 +1000, mick wrote: Can some one advise me of the official policy for locating the centre of towns in the UK, i.e. the spot on the map for a point representing the town and used as the Zero Point for measuring distances to other towns. in India it is usually the head post office. -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
