Re: [OSM-talk] Mapping dangerous bicycle locations?
On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 2:56 PM, Mateusz Konieczny matkoni...@gmail.com wrote: I am maintaining personal database of issues and problems in my city[1]. Most of it is about cycling-related problems. Another example: https://bikeeastbay.org/hazards_map ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapping dangerous bicycle locations?
2015-03-08 16:01 GMT+01:00 Volker Schmidt vosc...@gmail.com: Subdivision of the hazard namespace To me it would come naturally to subdivide the namespace as follows for different users of the road: - hazard:general= - hazard:pedestrian= - hazard:motor_vehicle= - hazard:bicycle= - etc. +1, but I suggest to keep hazard for hazard:general Cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapping dangerous bicycle locations?
On Sat, 7 Mar 2015 15:26:38 +0100, Stefan Keller wrote: What about crowdsourcing dangerous bicycle locations using key/tag hazard? See http://wiki.osm.org/wiki/DE:Key:hazard And see also https://twitter.com/sfkeller/status/574213951644368896 tl;dr: As a lot of others already said: a quite subjective thing to map. In Germany a lot of more experienced bicyclists regard all separate cycleways or even footways with bicycle=yes as hazard – with good reason. Every year a signifikant number of bicyclists get right-hooked by cars turning right and their drivers not paying enough attention. Every year, a signifikant number of those right-hooked bicyclists die. Never mind the cars parking on the cycleways, crossing service streets, the pedestrians, dogs etc which would make the experienced bicyclist cringe from awe while the less experienced are happy to cruise along with walking speed even on sidewalks where they are not allowed except being ten or younger. Ridiculous is the mentioning of snow or shattered glass. During winter and below 0°C common sense should tell a bicyclist that surfaces might be covered with snow or ice and thus slippery. Some tags regarding winter servicing do exist although the proposal wasn't guided to a voting process. For glass and other stuff on highways: everybody should expect that on the surface of the road stuff may lay which can harm the vehicle – from glass of bottles thrown away by stupid people to shattered windows of a car after an accident to nails and screws falling off carpenter's car to vehicle parts lost while driving (exhaust, bump guard, suspension parts, oil etc). Bicyclists may take into consideration that on a road frequently traveled by cars the smaller stuff like glass gets cleared away by the crumbling effect of the car's tires so that cleaning is in opposition to a cycleway needed less often. (Of course the bicyclist shouldn't ride to the utmost right of a highway were no cars go and all the rubble collects) Thomas ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapping dangerous bicycle locations?
On Mon, Mar 9, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: Sharp curves .. would they not be obvious from the map it self .. one node on the sharp corner compared to many for a 'smooth' corner.'Masked' corners where some object hides on coming traffic (e.g. building, vegetation) are also a hazard. These hazards exist for all kinds of traffic and not indicated on maps. The signs I have in mind were added after a long history of incidents at the given location. One such sign warns of a persistently wet surface in a given area. Enough cyclists spilled on that section that the sign was added. This is typical: traffic measures are added after a series of incidents among road users. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapping dangerous bicycle locations?
To me it's almost undisputed that traffic signs - including warning signs for cyclists - can be and are mapped. -S. 2015-03-10 21:33 GMT+01:00 Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com: On Mon, Mar 9, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: Sharp curves .. would they not be obvious from the map it self .. one node on the sharp corner compared to many for a 'smooth' corner.'Masked' corners where some object hides on coming traffic (e.g. building, vegetation) are also a hazard. These hazards exist for all kinds of traffic and not indicated on maps. The signs I have in mind were added after a long history of incidents at the given location. One such sign warns of a persistently wet surface in a given area. Enough cyclists spilled on that section that the sign was added. This is typical: traffic measures are added after a series of incidents among road users. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapping dangerous bicycle locations?
On 10 March 2015 at 08:30, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: These hazards exist for all kinds of traffic and not indicated on maps. Usually people are expected to be aware of their surroundings, not to rely on other aids as to what is visually obvious? :-\ The idea here is not to use it as a replacement for being visually aware, but possibly to avoid (or minimise) these hazards when planning a cycle route. That said, I think we still have to find a way to map objective and verifiable facts to that end. Ian. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapping dangerous bicycle locations?
On 9/03/2015 9:08 PM, moltonel 3x Combo wrote: On 09/03/2015, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: There are in places bicycle specific warning signs (e.g. sharp curve bicylists beware) and THOSE can definitely be mapped. Agreed, we can probably draw the line on wether the hazard is signposted. And most of the values in taginfo and the proposal look like they can fit that criteria. Sharp curves .. would they not be obvious from the map it self .. one node on the sharp corner compared to many for a 'smooth' corner.'Masked' corners where some object hides on coming traffic (e.g. building, vegetation) are also a hazard. These hazards exist for all kinds of traffic and not indicated on maps. Usually people are expected to be aware of their surroundings, not to rely on other aids as to what is visually obvious? :-\ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapping dangerous bicycle locations?
On 09/03/2015, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: Sharp curves .. would they not be obvious from the map it self .. one node on the sharp corner compared to many for a 'smooth' corner.'Masked' corners where some object hides on coming traffic (e.g. building, vegetation) are also a hazard. These hazards exist for all kinds of traffic and not indicated on maps. Usually people are expected to be aware of their surroundings, not to rely on other aids as to what is visually obvious? :-\ From the osm perspective, all these extra bits of information may not maped yet (road width, vegetation height...) or ever (relief). Even when they are, deducing the visibility algorythmically is hard. You might not want to render hazard=curve, but still want to provide it to drive-assist software. As for drivers being aware of their suroundings, if the local authority decided to signpost a curvy road, it's a good hint that osm should as well. It's not much different from tagging maxspeed. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapping dangerous bicycle locations?
There are in places bicycle specific warning signs (e.g. sharp curve bicylists beware) and THOSE can definitely be mapped. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapping dangerous bicycle locations?
On 09/03/2015, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: There are in places bicycle specific warning signs (e.g. sharp curve bicylists beware) and THOSE can definitely be mapped. Agreed, we can probably draw the line on wether the hazard is signposted. And most of the values in taginfo and the proposal look like they can fit that criteria. Note that http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenHazardMap seems to use a different set of keys, with usage stats comparable to hazard=*. We probably want to merge the two schemes together. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapping dangerous bicycle locations?
2015-03-08 12:24 GMT+01:00 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: Am 08.03.2015 um 11:53 schrieb Stefan Keller sfkel...@gmail.com: I actually wonder, if this is a case for WikiProject Cleanup? +1, the German page is not a translation of the proposal page, but the latter is much older and dates back to 2007. I propose the German page for deletion. The only 3 documented values occur 1, 1 and 2 times, so this is clearly not a page documenting best practise, and should have been added in the proposal name space. Is there a template to propose page deletions in the wiki so WikiProject Cleanup gets noticed? Cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapping dangerous bicycle locations?
Am 07.03.2015 um 16:34 schrieb Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org: See http://wiki.osm.org/wiki/DE:Key:hazard And see also https://twitter.com/sfkeller/status/574213951644368896 Sounds very subjective to me. Doesn't belong in OSM. the German page does indeed define subjective values while there is a proposal which has fairly objective values http://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Proposed_features/hazard cheers Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapping dangerous bicycle locations?
This survey might be of interest for (at least the Berlin part of) you. https://radsicherheit.berlin.de ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapping dangerous bicycle locations?
Am 08.03.2015 um 11:53 schrieb Stefan Keller sfkel...@gmail.com: I actually wonder, if this is a case for WikiProject Cleanup? +1, the German page is not a translation of the proposal page, but the latter is much older and dates back to 2007. cheers Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapping dangerous bicycle locations?
Hi, Thanks for the discussion so long. I agree mostly that 1. its potentially subjective and 2. not always visible as real world object. I've added a notice to the german page: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Key:hazard I actually wonder, if this is a case for WikiProject Cleanup? Yours, S. 2015-03-08 11:29 GMT+01:00 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: Am 07.03.2015 um 16:34 schrieb Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org: See http://wiki.osm.org/wiki/DE:Key:hazard And see also https://twitter.com/sfkeller/status/574213951644368896 Sounds very subjective to me. Doesn't belong in OSM. the German page does indeed define subjective values while there is a proposal which has fairly objective values http://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Proposed_features/hazard cheers Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapping dangerous bicycle locations?
I've brought this up before, but have since gone with the general consensus that this is just too subjective, even if we were to come up with some kind of rubric to standardize things. A big and highly inconsistent issue between regions is regional attitude. I don't care for on-street riding, even in a reasonably extensive network of bike lanes in Portland largely because motorists have a tendency of ignoring lane access completely, often driving against traffic or in reserved lanes to save time with pretty flagrant disregard for safety. Or they just like to intentionally aim for cyclists and pedestrians for laughs. And the cycleways tend to be a congested and unpredictable clog of pedestrians, bicycles, and dogs either off leash or walking on the other side of the roadway from the person holding a 20-foot-long leash, clotheslining everything in their reach. It's an NP-complete perfect storm of pitfalls. Meanwhile, less experienced cyclists would feel safer or safe in any of those situations. Meanwhile, there's very few streets in Tulsa, Dallas or Oklahoma City I don't feel too out of place on and cycleways generally have pedestrian facilities except in suburbs (mostly because the suburbs don't have the traffic to warrant them yet and passing is a nonissue save for the occasional rare blind curve, junction or hillcrest). Roads like Bixby's Memorial Drive (US 64) or Oklahoma City's Portland Avenue (OK 74), with their lack of shoulders, relatively high traffic volumes, and total lack of even a share the road sign might not pose substantial additional risk over a cycleway, mostly because the drivers are mellow. However, the average American would look at that and say, Nope! On Sat, Mar 7, 2015 at 8:26 AM, Stefan Keller sfkel...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, What about crowdsourcing dangerous bicycle locations using key/tag hazard? See http://wiki.osm.org/wiki/DE:Key:hazard And see also https://twitter.com/sfkeller/status/574213951644368896 Yours, S. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapping dangerous bicycle locations?
On Sa, Mär 07, 2015 at 03:26:38 +0100, Stefan Keller wrote: What about crowdsourcing dangerous bicycle locations using key/tag hazard? See http://wiki.osm.org/wiki/DE:Key:hazard And see also https://twitter.com/sfkeller/status/574213951644368896 Sounds very subjective to me. Doesn't belong in OSM. Jochen -- Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org http://www.jochentopf.com/ +49-173-7019282 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapping dangerous bicycle locations?
The suggests values of weather related - rain/snow will change with the weather .. naturally. slippery = surface related ... could be tagged with surface=? glass-shard .. can be cleaned up, thus temporary like the weather ... I have stopped and swept things off the path .. used some cardboard out of a local bin. I've seen other cyclist do the same. Crime .. effects not only cyclist. As Paul says below - subjective. Not that that is a bad thing .. but makes one mapper tag something as dangerous while another says it is very good. So hard to set hard values on this. On 8/03/2015 4:47 AM, Paul Johnson wrote: I've brought this up before, but have since gone with the general consensus that this is just too subjective, even if we were to come up with some kind of rubric to standardize things. A big and highly inconsistent issue between regions is regional attitude. I don't care for on-street riding, even in a reasonably extensive network of bike lanes in Portland largely because motorists have a tendency of ignoring lane access completely, often driving against traffic or in reserved lanes to save time with pretty flagrant disregard for safety. Or they just like to intentionally aim for cyclists and pedestrians for laughs. And the cycleways tend to be a congested and unpredictable clog of pedestrians, bicycles, and dogs either off leash or walking on the other side of the roadway from the person holding a 20-foot-long leash, clotheslining everything in their reach. It's an NP-complete perfect storm of pitfalls. Meanwhile, less experienced cyclists would feel safer or safe in any of those situations. Meanwhile, there's very few streets in Tulsa, Dallas or Oklahoma City I don't feel too out of place on and cycleways generally have pedestrian facilities except in suburbs (mostly because the suburbs don't have the traffic to warrant them yet and passing is a nonissue save for the occasional rare blind curve, junction or hillcrest). Roads like Bixby's Memorial Drive (US 64) or Oklahoma City's Portland Avenue (OK 74), with their lack of shoulders, relatively high traffic volumes, and total lack of even a share the road sign might not pose substantial additional risk over a cycleway, mostly because the drivers are mellow. However, the average American would look at that and say, Nope! On Sat, Mar 7, 2015 at 8:26 AM, Stefan Keller sfkel...@gmail.com mailto:sfkel...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, What about crowdsourcing dangerous bicycle locations using key/tag hazard? See http://wiki.osm.org/wiki/DE:Key:hazard And see also https://twitter.com/sfkeller/status/574213951644368896 Yours, S. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
