Re: [OSM-talk] Named passages on hiking paths
2011/3/14 Steve Doerr : > On 14/03/2011 20:34, Phil Endecott wrote: > I think the OP's problem is a particular example of a more general problem, > of tagging a particular stretch of a way with a specific name which doesn't > negate the name of the way as a whole. You get that with terraces, parades, > etc. on roads, with reaches of a river, and no doubt with other features as > well. yes, this also occurs sometimes on bridges and squares: the way although keeping its name gets additionally another name while running on this feature. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Named passages on hiking paths
Thank you all for your inputs, translations and jokes :) Here, "pas" does not refer to a mountain pass (although some mountain passes have a name starting with "Pas de ..."). I don't think "traverse" would fit either because the term is specific to climbers. Via ferrata is closer because these ways are equipped with cables/chains. But they are still different because the whole path of a via ferrata is equiped and they purposely go through difficult/vertical obstacles. Climbing equipment is usually required for security. I'm rather talking about very short difficult passages along a regular hiking path. Such passages are not there for fun but because of an unavoidable obstacle. I manage to find some pictures of some "pas": * Pas de la savonnette: http://www.amisdesaintevictoire.asso.fr/montagne%20sainte%20victoire/sentiers/jaune/stevictoir030606%20004.jpg * Pas de l'oeil de verre: http://www.randomania.fr/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/pas_oeil_verre_equipe.JPG * Pas du Boret: http://www.randoplus.ch/img/photos/600/pas-du-boret.jpg In the last example, there is no chain or particular equipment on the way but this passage is very steep and wearying, hence the qualification as "Pas de ...". I think that Phil got the right term with step. I've never tried the Hillary step myself (!) but from what I can read, it matches the description of what we call a "pas". Moreover, these technical passages are often symbolic marks along the trail. For example, if I were to describe a hiking trail, I could decompose it in several legs joining these "pas" and other landmarks. It is therefore relevant to talk about a step. Phil also said that "step" carries too many meanings and is therefore unclear. Even if hiking=step would reduce the scope to the hiking context, we can expect confusion with highway=steps. I'm reluctant to add an adjective such as technical_step because, as I said earlier, a "pas" can be technical OR just wearying OR anything difficult. Anyway, thanks again for your inputs. I'll try to discuss an appropriate tag with hikers on Talk:Hiking. Regards, Gilles Nathan Edgars II wrote: > Gilles Bassière wrote: >> When hiking, I often encounter short technical passages which have a >> name painted on the rock. In French, the name almost always begin with >> "Pas de ..." but I'm not sure if there is a good translation for "pas" >> in English [1]. Such portions of the path often consist in passing a >> small cliff or an exposed ridge, they may be equipped with chains or >> cables. >> > Is http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/via_ferrata what > you're thinking of? > > -- > View this message in context: > http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Named-passages-on-hiking-paths-tp6170108p6171183.html > Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Gilles Bassière - Web/GIS software engineer http://gbassiere.free.fr/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Named passages on hiking paths
Gilles Bassière wrote: > > When hiking, I often encounter short technical passages which have a > name painted on the rock. In French, the name almost always begin with > "Pas de ..." but I'm not sure if there is a good translation for "pas" > in English [1]. Such portions of the path often consist in passing a > small cliff or an exposed ridge, they may be equipped with chains or > cables. > Is http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/via_ferrata what you're thinking of? -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Named-passages-on-hiking-paths-tp6170108p6171183.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Named passages on hiking paths
On 14/03/2011 20:34, Phil Endecott wrote: > The correct translation for "pas" in that context is "step" - i.e. that is what you should write if translating a proper name. Example: the "Hillary Step" on Everest. > In Britain there are various places known informally or semi-formally as "the bad step", or something similar. > However, since "step" has numerous meanings (as does "pas" of course), I doubt that it would be an appropriate word to use in an OSM tag. The Hillary Step appears to be a vertical rock face which needs to be ascended on the way to summit: it is thus analogous to a step or stair (as in a flight of stairs). I think the kind of 'Pas' being mentioned in the original posting is something that is traversed horizontally rather than vertically. 'Pas' does indeed mean 'step' (i.e. a movement taken in walking), and by extension a 'place through which one may pass in order to get from one place to another', in which sense it can be applied to sea-straits as well as to tricky portions of a path on land. I think the OP's problem is a particular example of a more general problem, of tagging a particular stretch of a way with a specific name which doesn't negate the name of the way as a whole. You get that with terraces, parades, etc. on roads, with reaches of a river, and no doubt with other features as well. -- Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Named passages on hiking paths
Gilles Bassi?re wrote: I'd like to get advice about toponymy in the context of hiking paths. When hiking, I often encounter short technical passages which have a name painted on the rock. In French, the name almost always begin with "Pas de ..." but I'm not sure if there is a good translation for "pas" in English [1]. Such portions of the path often consist in passing a small cliff or an exposed ridge, they may be equipped with chains or cables. Hi Giles, The correct translation for "pas" in that context is "step" - i.e. that is what you should write if translating a proper name. Example: the "Hillary Step" on Everest. In Britain there are various places known informally or semi-formally as "the bad step", or something similar. However, since "step" has numerous meanings (as does "pas" of course), I doubt that it would be an appropriate word to use in an OSM tag. Cheers, Phil. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Named passages on hiking paths
Le 14/03/11 20:45, Frederik Ramm a écrit : Hi, Ulf Lamping wrote: Pas seems often to be used more generally for a passage, as in "Pas de Calais" (Strait of Dover). Oh, that's easy to explain. On leaving Dover by boat across the foggy strait, ask your French-spreaking lookout what he sees, and he'll say: "pas de Calais!" Bye Frederik That remind me of a famous Scottish proverb : "If you are able to see Skye Island, that means that rain is coming, but if you are not able to see it, rain is really come. Behind the joke, you must know that, in seaside countries, the air is brighter and more transparent just before the rain and a little foggy on other times. Christian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Named passages on hiking paths
Gilles Bassière wrote: > Eventually, I used a custom tag for my latest edit: hiking=passage > [5] but I'm not sure this can make sense for other mappers I _think_ I'd call that a "traverse". Generally that would apply to a passage with significant movement in the x/y axes as well as the z axis! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traverse_(climbing) cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Named-passages-on-hiking-paths-tp6170108p6170391.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Named passages on hiking paths
Hi, Ulf Lamping wrote: Pas seems often to be used more generally for a passage, as in "Pas de Calais" (Strait of Dover). Oh, that's easy to explain. On leaving Dover by boat across the foggy strait, ask your French-spreaking lookout what he sees, and he'll say: "pas de Calais!" Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Named passages on hiking paths
Am 14.03.2011 20:06, schrieb Tom Hughes: On 14/03/11 18:45, Nakor wrote: Isn't a "Pas" just a mountain pass: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:mountain_pass (like e.g. http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pas_de_Peyrol )? "Col" is the usual word for a mountain pass. Yes, the french are a lot more consistent in their "naming" of mountain passes (Col ...) compared to e.g. german: "Joch", "Scharte", "Pass", "Sattel", ... I only know two of those "Pas" in france "Pas de Peyrol" and "Pas de la Couelle" that "qualifies" as a mountain pass (but there maybe a bit more of them). Pas seems often to be used more generally for a passage, as in "Pas de Calais" (Strait of Dover). Regards, ULFL ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Named passages on hiking paths
Le 14/03/11 20:06, Tom Hughes a écrit : On 14/03/11 18:45, Nakor wrote: Isn't a "Pas" just a mountain pass: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:mountain_pass (like e.g. http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pas_de_Peyrol )? "Col" is the usual word for a mountain pass. Tom If "col" and "pas" are equal and to be found in many french-speaking regions, "col" is the generic term used for a mountain pass by the geographers . As you may know, the Pas de Calais (Straight of Dover) is a straightening passage from the sailor's point of view, as the mountain pass is from the ranger's. Christian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Named passages on hiking paths
On 14/03/11 18:45, Nakor wrote: Isn't a "Pas" just a mountain pass: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:mountain_pass (like e.g. http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pas_de_Peyrol )? "Col" is the usual word for a mountain pass. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Named passages on hiking paths
Gilles, Isn't a "Pas" just a mountain pass: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:mountain_pass (like e.g. http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pas_de_Peyrol )? Thanks, N. On 3/14/2011 2:27 PM, Gilles Bassière wrote: Hi, I'd like to get advice about toponymy in the context of hiking paths. When hiking, I often encounter short technical passages which have a name painted on the rock. In French, the name almost always begin with "Pas de ..." but I'm not sure if there is a good translation for "pas" in English [1]. Such portions of the path often consist in passing a small cliff or an exposed ridge, they may be equipped with chains or cables. I think it is good to have these passages in OSM because they can be considered as a mark or a step along the hiking route. My problem is that I can't find a proper tagging scheme. I could put the name on the path segment [2] but that would often conflict with the name of the path (if any) [3]. Also, it doesn't convey the idea of a step along the path. Another solution is to use the place=locality [4] but that would mean that a named place exists with a path going though. Here, I think the name is for the technical passage (part of the path), not the place. There would be no name if there were no path. Moreover, such a place name is mostly relevant to hikers whereas place=locality is not specific. Eventually, I used a custom tag for my latest edit: hiking=passage [5] but I'm not sure this can make sense for other mappers and I'm looking for feedback on this. [1]: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1978431 [2]: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/85315111 [3]: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/633030063 [4]: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1105440189 [5]: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/1200975380 Regards ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
