Re: [OSM-talk] Survey on the OSM Wiki
Pieren wrote: > You cannot say that. Give me an example where the editors decided > how to tag features in the past. Two off the top of my head: 1. Potlatch popularised the use of a certain set of values for the surface= tag. 2. http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=designation+talk-fr+site%3Alists.openstreetmap.org > By chance, the developers are not trying to impose new tags or > changes. They follow what's happening on the tagging list and/or > the wiki. I can't speak for any other editor, of course, but I have never _followed_ tagging@ or wiki votes for Potlatch tag presets. They are one piece of source material, yes, but only something to be informed by, and even then very minimally. taginfo and real-world mapping experience are much more useful. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Survey-on-the-OSM-Wiki-tp5766905p5766969.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Survey on the OSM Wiki
On 25.06.2013 21:35, Peter Wendorff wrote: > Am 25.06.2013 19:57, schrieb Mulone Moligiangi: >> On 25/06/2013 17:22, Jonathan Bennett wrote: >>> * What are you hoping to show with this survey? What use do you see this >>> information being to the OSM community, and will they see the results? >> I'm working on the tagging process, trying to understand how it works on the >> wiki and how people reach consensus on difficult issues. >> The OSM community will see the results in academic articles. > Sorry to ask back carefully here again: > Do we have to extend "will see the results in academic articles" by "if > they have enough money to buy the corresponding academic > newspaper/magazine"? or by ", which are ensured to be available free of > charge and for anybody interested."? > > One of my personal main problems with academic research is that it's > incredible expensive to look into articles without having access to them > (or to libraries which pay for that access somehow), so this would be at > least a good argument for me (and I guess some others) to put more > effort in telling you more detailled stuff, I guess ;) +10 Why should I help a research if some big player make money of this knowledge/result and even the researcher have to pay money to get it publish. Knowledge is substantial for men kind and should be free for everyone. colliar signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Survey on the OSM Wiki
On 25.06.2013 21:58, Pieren wrote: > On 25/06/2013 17:22, Jonathan Bennett wrote: >> Sorry to be so harsh > > It's not the first time we welcome researchers on this list in such a > bad mood (not necessarily you Jonathan). It's childish. You could > start by explaining that the tagging process is complex, is not only > happening on the wiki, that not all of them are the result of a > consensus, that some of them are raised on foreign countries and > extended later to the world (e.g. the "Karlsruhe schema"). Sorry, but if you are planning a research I expect you to first read a bit. It should not be so hard to find older threads on the list's archive and you will easily find what infos are wished. > On Tue, Jun 25, 2013 at 8:23 PM, Serge Wroclawski wrote: > >> I'd argue that consensus is formed not from the wiki as much as from >> from the editors, and the renderers, and taginfo. > > You cannot say that. Give me an example where the editors decided how > to tag features in the past. By chance, the developers are not trying > to impose new tags or changes. They follow what's happening on the > tagging list and/or the wiki. Wow, what an optimistic view. At least for JOSM I hope the few developers spend there time coding and not checking the wiki and follow the sometimes never ending discussions on the mailing lists. The presets syntax is not that hard but there are only few people supplying patches. > And taginfo is just showing stats which can be easily biased by mass > imports. +5 >> I think it's 3% of OSM users are responsible for 80-something percent of all >> OSM data > and probable 1% of that 3% is talking about creating, refining or > changing tags. Most of the contributors simply don't search too long > for a tag definition or a corresponding proposal on the wiki or > statistics on taginfo. Most of them will simply not map the feature if > if it's not present in the presets and in the map features wiki page. Now you did explain yourself why editors (presets) form a tagging scheme. Once you have reached a certain usage it is quite hard to change the tag and there is no rule not to include tags in presets below a certain usage or certain number of different users adding that tag. > One advise for Andrea: check the osm.org main mailing list and tagging > list archives about the "vote" process on the wiki. This will tell you > more than anything on the wiki about the process of establishing new > tags in OSM. Or just have a look at the last month and you will learn at lot about the process of developing tags (e.g. reservoir, power). colliar signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Survey on the OSM Wiki
On 25/06/2013 17:22, Jonathan Bennett wrote: > Sorry to be so harsh It's not the first time we welcome researchers on this list in such a bad mood (not necessarily you Jonathan). It's childish. You could start by explaining that the tagging process is complex, is not only happening on the wiki, that not all of them are the result of a consensus, that some of them are raised on foreign countries and extended later to the world (e.g. the "Karlsruhe schema"). On Tue, Jun 25, 2013 at 8:23 PM, Serge Wroclawski wrote: > I'd argue that consensus is formed not from the wiki as much as from > from the editors, and the renderers, and taginfo. You cannot say that. Give me an example where the editors decided how to tag features in the past. By chance, the developers are not trying to impose new tags or changes. They follow what's happening on the tagging list and/or the wiki. And taginfo is just showing stats which can be easily biased by mass imports. > I think it's 3% of OSM users are responsible for 80-something percent of all > OSM data and probable 1% of that 3% is talking about creating, refining or changing tags. Most of the contributors simply don't search too long for a tag definition or a corresponding proposal on the wiki or statistics on taginfo. Most of them will simply not map the feature if if it's not present in the presets and in the map features wiki page. One advise for Andrea: check the osm.org main mailing list and tagging list archives about the "vote" process on the wiki. This will tell you more than anything on the wiki about the process of establishing new tags in OSM. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Survey on the OSM Wiki
On 25.06.2013 18:22, Jonathan Bennett wrote: > On 25/06/2013 16:48, Mulone Moligiangi wrote: > However, there are plenty of other things that perhaps you should > explain: > > * Are you "Mulone Moligiangi" or "Andrea Ballatore"? > * Which institution do you work for? You say you're doing academic > research, but don't say who for. > * What are you hoping to show with this survey? What use do you see this > information being to the OSM community, and will they see the results? > * Your questions are quite vague, loosely-worded and open-ended. How > will this help your research? > * Are you aware of the difference between "what gets written in the > wiki" versus "what tags actually get used"? > > Sorry to be so harsh, but if you expect the OSM community to help you, > you need to explain better why it's in their interests to do so. +10 colliar signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Survey on the OSM Wiki
Am 25.06.2013 19:57, schrieb Mulone Moligiangi: > On 25/06/2013 17:22, Jonathan Bennett wrote: >> * What are you hoping to show with this survey? What use do you see this >> information being to the OSM community, and will they see the results? > I'm working on the tagging process, trying to understand how it works on the > wiki and how people reach consensus on difficult issues. > The OSM community will see the results in academic articles. Sorry to ask back carefully here again: Do we have to extend "will see the results in academic articles" by "if they have enough money to buy the corresponding academic newspaper/magazine"? or by ", which are ensured to be available free of charge and for anybody interested."? One of my personal main problems with academic research is that it's incredible expensive to look into articles without having access to them (or to libraries which pay for that access somehow), so this would be at least a good argument for me (and I guess some others) to put more effort in telling you more detailled stuff, I guess ;) regards Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Survey on the OSM Wiki
On Tue, Jun 25, 2013 at 1:57 PM, Mulone Moligiangi wrote: > I'm working on the tagging process, trying to understand how it works on the > wiki and how people reach consensus on difficult issues. The OSM community > will see the results in academic articles. How it works *on the wiki*, or how it works on the data? There's a correlation between these two datasets, but you cannot say that because something is documented on the wiki that it has reached any sort of consensus. I think it's 3% of OSM users are responsible for 80-something percent of all OSM data (the exact number was presented at SF) That means there thirty-six thousand contributors who are making the vast majority of the map. The problem for someone studying the process it that the tagging list (and the wiki) are more proscriptive than descriptive. In other words, many people who are on the list, and active, are people who want to tell others how they should map, rather than actually going out and mapping. In these cases, the tagging in the DB and the tagging in the wiki are not the same. So to understand how "consensus" is formed (using your terminology), you'd have to look at far more than the wiki. You'd have to look at what's done in practice, and then you'd need to examine the data products (rendered data, routing data) as well as what the editors decide to include or not to include as a preset. I'd argue that consensus is formed not from the wiki as much as from from the editors, and the renderers, and taginfo. In fact, you may find that the wiki doesn't relate to common practice in many cases. - Serge ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Survey on the OSM Wiki
On 25/06/2013 17:22, Jonathan Bennett wrote: > On 25/06/2013 16:48, Mulone Moligiangi wrote: >> (Apologies for cross-posting) >> >> Since you don't appear to have cross-posted, I wonder why you're >> apologising for it. I posted this on the OSM forum too, this is why I'm apologising. I will also cross-post to the tagging mailing list soon. > However, there are plenty of other things that > perhaps you should explain: > > * Are you "Mulone Moligiangi" or "Andrea Ballatore"? I'm Andrea Ballatore. Mulone Moligiangi is a pseudonym I use occasionally. This is my homepage: http://sites.google.com/site/andreaballatore > * Which institution do you work for? You say you're doing academic > research, but don't say who for. I'm currently employed by University College Dublin, Ireland. > * What are you hoping to show with this survey? What use do you see this > information being to the OSM community, and will they see the results? I'm working on the tagging process, trying to understand how it works on the wiki and how people reach consensus on difficult issues. The OSM community will see the results in academic articles. > * Your questions are quite vague, loosely-worded and open-ended. How > will this help your research? This is an exploratory phase, where I'm trying to collect opinions about the tagging process. It's not intended to provide quantitative results. > * Are you aware of the difference between "what gets written in the > wiki" versus "what tags actually get used"? This is one of the points on which I'm sure you know a lot about :-) > Sorry to be so harsh, but if you expect the OSM community to help you, > you need to explain better why it's in their interests to do so. Fair enough. A ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Survey on the OSM Wiki
On 25/06/2013 16:48, Mulone Moligiangi wrote: > (Apologies for cross-posting) Since you don't appear to have cross-posted, I wonder why you're apologising for it. However, there are plenty of other things that perhaps you should explain: * Are you "Mulone Moligiangi" or "Andrea Ballatore"? * Which institution do you work for? You say you're doing academic research, but don't say who for. * What are you hoping to show with this survey? What use do you see this information being to the OSM community, and will they see the results? * Your questions are quite vague, loosely-worded and open-ended. How will this help your research? * Are you aware of the difference between "what gets written in the wiki" versus "what tags actually get used"? Sorry to be so harsh, but if you expect the OSM community to help you, you need to explain better why it's in their interests to do so. J. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
