Re: [OSM-talk] Tag combinations: amenity and highway
Perhaps it means the bus parks on the bus stop, eg. driver parks his bus on a end of route bus stop, goes off has a break and comes back, drives off back down the route he/she came On 13/06/2012 13:23, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2012/6/13 Jaakko Helleranta.comjaa...@helleranta.com: Imho in your cases amenity=bus_stop + parking=yes doesn't sound bad at all for bus stops targeted to (partly car traveling) commuters, for example. I don't think that amenity=bus_stop parking=yes does make any sense. You can park in a lot of places, shall we add parking=yes to all of them? You can also chew gum there, should we also add chew_chewing_gum=yes? A parking is an area, a bus stop is more or less a point. If the two are close, you can see this in the db (and potentially also, if there are any linear barriers between them). IMHO there is no need or sense in combining the two, but if I were to emphasize on a parking with annected bus stop I'd see it as an extra property of the parking, not the bus stop. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tag combinations: amenity and highway
netman55 netma...@gmail.com wrote: Perhaps it means the bus parks on the bus stop, eg. driver parks his bus on a end of route bus stop, goes off has a break and comes back, drives off back down the route he/she came On 13/06/2012 13:23, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2012/6/13 Jaakko Helleranta.comjaa...@helleranta.com: Imho in your cases amenity=bus_stop + parking=yes doesn't sound bad at all for bus stops targeted to (partly car traveling) commuters, for example. I don't think that amenity=bus_stop parking=yes does make any sense. You can park in a lot of places, shall we add parking=yes to all of them? You can also chew gum there, should we also add chew_chewing_gum=yes? A parking is an area, a bus stop is more or less a point. If the two are close, you can see this in the db (and potentially also, if there are any linear barriers between them). IMHO there is no need or sense in combining the two, but if I were to emphasize on a parking with annected bus stop I'd see it as an extra property of the parking, not the bus stop. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk More likely, it is meant for park and ride lots, where you have a parking lot whose use is restricted to those riding the bus. Typically, these lots will be on or near the outermost end of radial bus routes, and are used by commuters. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tag combinations: amenity and highway
2012/6/14 Peter Wendorff wendo...@uni-paderborn.de So yes, it's useful to know about the park-and-ride stuff, but 1) I agree with you, that probably parking=yes is not the best way to tag that, and 2) (the more important question for me as a data consumer in this case), if that tag combination is correctly interpreted as a P+R facility. The best way to tag this is pretty obvious if you read the public_transport wiki page. Stop areahttp://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_Transport#Stop_areashould be a relation with all the points that form it, like platform, bench, shelter.. And we could put a parking lot in if it is a park and ride. Janjko ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tag combinations: amenity and highway
Am 13.06.2012 14:19, schrieb john whelan: I wonder about lumping things together sometimes. Locally we have gas stations amenity=fuel that have a convenience store and a ABM or ATM in OSM language. I'm tempted to have three separate POIs in much the same way as a bank with an ATM have two POIs together. I would prefer distinct POIs, too, but I doubt that the problem is exactly what you claim it to be: The problem with putting too much information on one POI is the rendering systems have problems with more complex coding especially how do you display it? Even to distinguish between a bus_stop and a bus_stop with shelter in a simple way with different icons doesn't seem to be standardized. The complex coding is one issue, but how is it solved now? Let's consider one POI with complex tagging. Renderers usually would have more than one matching rule for it, e.g. a bus-stop icon, an icon for a waste-basket and a third icon for the shelter. Most renderers will select either one of them or all three of them to render, and in the latter case two of the three will be omitted because there's not enough space to render all three. The alternative would be three distinct POI with one of the attributes each. In the bus-stop example let the waste-basket be mounted to the bus-stop pole and the pole being one corner of the shelter: All three are very close together. A renderer matches all three rules again - now one for each POI, and often will omit again two of three corresponding icons (here two of three objects) because of space collisions. But other problems occur: - A bus stop has a size of often 10x3 Meters - nevertheless it's generalized to one node in OSM usually; and that's often okay. - I'm working for blind people, so being able to describe where in the bus-stop area the waste-basket or the bench is, is a benefit for my application: left or right of the shelter? A renderer might generate collection-icons for nearby objects, but it's not possible to do it the other way around. regards Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tag combinations: amenity and highway
It is an important point of difference to train and bus stations/stops as to whether they have a dedicated Park and Ride carpark or not. It is something I would find useful if I was searching for station POI's. It's not just whether parking is nearby, but whether it's dedicated to commuters - not something you can figure out just from how close the parking is. And it is information that belongs to the station, not the carpark. On the other hand, I'm not sure that just adding parking=-yes on the station/stop is the best way to tag this. Stephen On 13 June 2012 22:23, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: I don't think that amenity=bus_stop parking=yes does make any sense. You can park in a lot of places, shall we add parking=yes to all of them? You can also chew gum there, should we also add chew_chewing_gum=yes? A parking is an area, a bus stop is more or less a point. If the two are close, you can see this in the db (and potentially also, if there are any linear barriers between them). IMHO there is no need or sense in combining the two, but if I were to emphasize on a parking with annected bus stop I'd see it as an extra property of the parking, not the bus stop. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tag combinations: amenity and highway
Hi Stephen. If the combination amenity=bus_stop, parking=yes really is a park-and-ride station, you're right. But is that a correct interpretation for it? In Germany p+r spaces are signed as such, and I'm not sure wether they are legally restricted to people who use the bus or train afterwards (if not stated as such directly, like it's sometimes the case at airports etc., where you have to put a corresponing parking ticket behind the front window). So yes, it's useful to know about the park-and-ride stuff, but 1) I agree with you, that probably parking=yes is not the best way to tag that, and 2) (the more important question for me as a data consumer in this case), if that tag combination is correctly interpreted as a P+R facility. regards Peter Am 14.06.2012 08:05, schrieb Stephen Hope: It is an important point of difference to train and bus stations/stops as to whether they have a dedicated Park and Ride carpark or not. It is something I would find useful if I was searching for station POI's. It's not just whether parking is nearby, but whether it's dedicated to commuters - not something you can figure out just from how close the parking is. And it is information that belongs to the station, not the carpark. On the other hand, I'm not sure that just adding parking=-yes on the station/stop is the best way to tag this. Stephen On 13 June 2012 22:23, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com mailto:dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: I don't think that amenity=bus_stop parking=yes does make any sense. You can park in a lot of places, shall we add parking=yes to all of them? You can also chew gum there, should we also add chew_chewing_gum=yes? A parking is an area, a bus stop is more or less a point. If the two are close, you can see this in the db (and potentially also, if there are any linear barriers between them). IMHO there is no need or sense in combining the two, but if I were to emphasize on a parking with annected bus stop I'd see it as an extra property of the parking, not the bus stop. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tag combinations: amenity and highway
On 2012-06-12 22:28, Peter Wendorff wrote: 32 (tourist, bus_stop): amenity=tourist is over all only 32 times in the database, so at least I would count amenity=tourist as useless. Could it be meant as a bus stop for tourist/sightseeing busses? Regards, Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tag combinations: amenity and highway
(Added tagging@osm. Isn't this more of a tagging discussion all-in-all?) Should both description and note keys be encouraged especially when using atypical tags/combinations? -Jaakko --Original Message-- From: Maarten Deen To: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Tag combinations: amenity and highway Sent: Jun 13, 2012 02:01 On 2012-06-12 22:28, Peter Wendorff wrote: 32 (tourist, bus_stop): amenity=tourist is over all only 32 times in the database, so at least I would count amenity=tourist as useless. Could it be meant as a bus stop for tourist/sightseeing busses? Regards, Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk Sent from my BlackBerry® device from Digicel -- Mobile: +509-37-26 91 54, Skype/GoogleTalk: jhelleranta ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tag combinations: amenity and highway
I wonder about lumping things together sometimes. Locally we have gas stations amenity=fuel that have a convenience store and a ABM or ATM in OSM language. I'm tempted to have three separate POIs in much the same way as a bank with an ATM have two POIs together. The problem with putting too much information on one POI is the rendering systems have problems with more complex coding especially how do you display it? Even to distinguish between a bus_stop and a bus_stop with shelter in a simple way with different icons doesn't seem to be standardized. Cheerio John On 12 June 2012 16:28, Peter Wendorff wendo...@uni-paderborn.de wrote: Hi. While developing the look-and-listen map I currently do some research about tagging and tag combinations as I have to build some kind of decision tree to determine how to describe a given osm object as text. I thought about first level tags in the osm database and looked into the most often used keys and tags according to taginfo for that. Some of the most used relevant keys are amenity and highway, and I did a summary of value combinations of these. It turns out, that at objects, that have both keys these often are redundant. Before I start: in sum my overpass-api export of yesterday returned 2668 objects with both tags. I would really appreciate some comments and thoughts about my suggestions (as written behind the corresponding combination). In order of appearance the combinations are count (amenity, highway): (neither all combinations listed, nor all most used ones): redundant combinations: 845 (bus_station, bus_stop) 69 (lamp, street_lamp) 34 (bus_stop, bus_stop) 25 (speed_trap, speed_camera) 10 (street_light, street_lamp) 7 (doctors, emergency_access_point): probably I'm wrong here, but why should I go to a doctor to call a doctor for an emergency? I'm confused about these. 7 (elevator, elevator) 4 (public_lift, elevator): where public_lift is used only 5 times over all 2 (bus_station, bus_station) 2 (elevator, lift) 2 (light_post, street_lamp) 2 (mountain_rescue, emergency_access_point): additionally amenity=mountain_rescue is not documented (but listed on the german how-to-map-A) 2 (speed_enforcement, speed_camera) not redundant combinations: 213 (waste_basket, bus_stop) 136 (bench, bus_stop): alternative: amenity=bus_stop; bench=yes (already used around 50k times) 118 (parking, rest_area) 107 (shelter, bus_stop): alternative: amenity=bus_stop; shelter=yes (already used 108k times) 92 (parking, turning_circle) 59 (parking, services) 37 (waste_basket, street_lamp) 35 (post_box, bus_stop): but often two objects, I think 15 (shelter, emergency_access_point) 6 (toilets, bus_stop): should be two objects, I think. 6 (waste_disposal, bus_stop): IMHO again two objects. 5 (watering_place, ford) combinations I guess to be an error: 46 (parking, bus_stop) how is this in other countries? in germany this would usually be an error. 45 (fuel, services) well, related, but amenity=fuel should not be tagged on the highway, right? 32 (tourist, bus_stop): amenity=tourist is over all only 32 times in the database, so at least I would count amenity=tourist as useless. It's not documented in the wiki. 30 (sloped_curb, crossing): outdated, as amenity=sloped_curb should be replaced by sloped_curb=yes (or better) or kerb=* 27 (restaurant, services): should be more than one object. 16 (school, bus_stop): should be two objects 15 (bicycle_parking, bus_stop): should be two objects 13 (fuel, service): probably services? 12 (trash_can, bus_stop): waste_basket instead of trash_can? 10 (fuel, bus_stop): two objects? 8 (fountain, mini_roundabout): if a mini-roundabout is a fountain in parallel, I would suggest the center not to be traversable, that would be a contradiction to the mini_roundabout definition we found in the discussions in the last weeks. 8 (recycling, bus_stop): I guess, this is most often a waste_basket, not what we usually call amenity=recycling. If that's wrong, these should be two objects. 8 (toilets, rest_area): should be two objects, as the toilets are much smaller than the rest area I guess (else I would not call it rest_area any more, but toilets only) 6 (grave_yard, turning_circle): sounds strange... 5 (cafe, services): not on one object, I would say 5 (fast_food, services): 2 objects 5 (fuel, residential): should the fuel be on the same object as highway? 5 (recycling, turning_circle): should be two objects 4 (pub, bus_stop): two objects 4 (public_building, bus_stop): two objects 3 (pharmacy, bus_stop): two objects 3 (place_of_worship, residential): two objects 3 (school, residential): two objects 3 (traffic_signals, traffic_signals): as I would interpret amenity=traffic_signals as an error; on top of that it's redundant 2 (bank, bus_stop): I guess, this is a German mapper who mis-translated the German bank (which means bench) 2
Re: [OSM-talk] Tag combinations: amenity and highway
2012/6/13 Jaakko Helleranta.com jaa...@helleranta.com: Imho in your cases amenity=bus_stop + parking=yes doesn't sound bad at all for bus stops targeted to (partly car traveling) commuters, for example. I don't think that amenity=bus_stop parking=yes does make any sense. You can park in a lot of places, shall we add parking=yes to all of them? You can also chew gum there, should we also add chew_chewing_gum=yes? A parking is an area, a bus stop is more or less a point. If the two are close, you can see this in the db (and potentially also, if there are any linear barriers between them). IMHO there is no need or sense in combining the two, but if I were to emphasize on a parking with annected bus stop I'd see it as an extra property of the parking, not the bus stop. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tag combinations: amenity and highway
Thorough analysis. I think you're right on at least most of the 2 objects? And my guess is that: 46 (parking, bus_stop) how is this in other countries? in germany this would usually be an error. Would imply two objects, too. ... Or then if someone wants to denote that this specific bus stop has parking facility connected to it it might make sense to use parking=yes in stead of amenity=parking and add the other object(s) for the actual parking spots. .. Haven't checked if anyone has done or suggested this, though, so just my thinking-aloud. It's a bit of a similar question as how facilities within facilitiesw should be tagged? Amneity=atm or atm=yes, amenity=restaurant or restaurant=yes, ... Bar, sauna, gym, patio, pool, AC (as in air conditioning). My understanding(?) is that there's no clear convention to this. Imho in your cases amenity=bus_stop + parking=yes doesn't sound bad at all for bus stops targeted to (partly car traveling) commuters, for example. Cheers, -Jaakko Sent from my BlackBerry® device from Digicel -- Mobile: +509-37-26 91 54, Skype/GoogleTalk: jhelleranta -Original Message- From: Peter Wendorff wendo...@uni-paderborn.de Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2012 22:28:39 To: talk@openstreetmap.orgtalk@openstreetmap.org Subject: [OSM-talk] Tag combinations: amenity and highway Hi. While developing the look-and-listen map I currently do some research about tagging and tag combinations as I have to build some kind of decision tree to determine how to describe a given osm object as text. I thought about first level tags in the osm database and looked into the most often used keys and tags according to taginfo for that. Some of the most used relevant keys are amenity and highway, and I did a summary of value combinations of these. It turns out, that at objects, that have both keys these often are redundant. Before I start: in sum my overpass-api export of yesterday returned 2668 objects with both tags. I would really appreciate some comments and thoughts about my suggestions (as written behind the corresponding combination). In order of appearance the combinations are count (amenity, highway): (neither all combinations listed, nor all most used ones): redundant combinations: 845 (bus_station, bus_stop) 69 (lamp, street_lamp) 34 (bus_stop, bus_stop) 25 (speed_trap, speed_camera) 10 (street_light, street_lamp) 7 (doctors, emergency_access_point): probably I'm wrong here, but why should I go to a doctor to call a doctor for an emergency? I'm confused about these. 7 (elevator, elevator) 4 (public_lift, elevator): where public_lift is used only 5 times over all 2 (bus_station, bus_station) 2 (elevator, lift) 2 (light_post, street_lamp) 2 (mountain_rescue, emergency_access_point): additionally amenity=mountain_rescue is not documented (but listed on the german how-to-map-A) 2 (speed_enforcement, speed_camera) not redundant combinations: 213 (waste_basket, bus_stop) 136 (bench, bus_stop): alternative: amenity=bus_stop; bench=yes (already used around 50k times) 118 (parking, rest_area) 107 (shelter, bus_stop): alternative: amenity=bus_stop; shelter=yes (already used 108k times) 92 (parking, turning_circle) 59 (parking, services) 37 (waste_basket, street_lamp) 35 (post_box, bus_stop): but often two objects, I think 15 (shelter, emergency_access_point) 6 (toilets, bus_stop): should be two objects, I think. 6 (waste_disposal, bus_stop): IMHO again two objects. 5 (watering_place, ford) combinations I guess to be an error: 46 (parking, bus_stop) how is this in other countries? in germany this would usually be an error. 45 (fuel, services) well, related, but amenity=fuel should not be tagged on the highway, right? 32 (tourist, bus_stop): amenity=tourist is over all only 32 times in the database, so at least I would count amenity=tourist as useless. It's not documented in the wiki. 30 (sloped_curb, crossing): outdated, as amenity=sloped_curb should be replaced by sloped_curb=yes (or better) or kerb=* 27 (restaurant, services): should be more than one object. 16 (school, bus_stop): should be two objects 15 (bicycle_parking, bus_stop): should be two objects 13 (fuel, service): probably services? 12 (trash_can, bus_stop): waste_basket instead of trash_can? 10 (fuel, bus_stop): two objects? 8 (fountain, mini_roundabout): if a mini-roundabout is a fountain in parallel, I would suggest the center not to be traversable, that would be a contradiction to the mini_roundabout definition we found in the discussions in the last weeks. 8 (recycling, bus_stop): I guess, this is most often a waste_basket, not what we usually call amenity=recycling. If that's wrong, these should be two objects. 8 (toilets, rest_area): should be two objects, as the toilets are much smaller than the rest area I guess (else I would not call it rest_area any more, but toilets only) 6 (grave_yard, turning_circle): sounds strange... 5
