Re: [OSM-talk] What's the point of the Wiki 'k=v' icon?
On 2015-09-01 13:14, Dave F. wrote: That the icon is used purely as a place holder & *removed* when a picture is added proves its irrelevance. Why would a newbie care or even need to know the XML structure of the database? Why is that relevant? The wiki has to be a clear & simple as possible. Disagree. The wiki also has to go into detail. The wiki has to cover every angle. But that is also not relevant here. "I see that icon as an indication that the detail I'm looking at has a assortment of icons within the page." "the only way of viewing data tagged by k=v is to search on the raw data rather than expecting an icon to appear on the map." Sorry, but I don't really understand what you've said there. I don't understand the issue. Why is the icon confusing? Why would it be wrong to have this icon if there are people that don't care about the XML structure? Other people may care and it is not confusing for them. I don't even see why the icon could be confusing. The icon is there because there is no specific icon for the value. If you don't want this icon th show, insert an icon for the value. Really, I do not understand your problem with the icon. Regards, Maarten On 30/08/2015 20:15, Lester Caine wrote: On 30/08/15 13:02, Dave F. wrote: As it doesn't help anyone learn the basics of OSM, it has no purpose on a wiki & be removed. The fact that there are now two identical icons is a little careless, but that icon has a very valid place on both the original pages ( multiple languages ) that explaon exactly what a tag is, and I see that icon as an indication that the detail I'm looking at has a assortment of icons within the page. YES is some places it has been used where there is not currently an available icon on the rendering which has now been added, but often the only way of viewing data tagged by k=v is to search on the raw data rather than expecting an icon to appear on the map. It has very well defined uses, which may need an element of tidying up, but if you remove it do you start by wiping the basic 'tags' pages? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tags is a basic starting point and k=v makes perfect sense ... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] What's the point of the Wiki 'k=v' icon?
sent from a phone > Am 30.08.2015 um 12:50 schrieb "ajt1...@gmail.com": > > It's a wiki. If you think you can improve it, do so. yes, it is a wiki, but I appreciate that he's asking here before making a change that will affect many pages. Just because everybody has write access does not mean changes shouldn't be discussed beforehand (e.g. it happens a lot that people silently, and often not instantly noticed by others, change the definition of introduced tags, creating hereby confusion amongst other contributors who then read it. This might even lead to deprecation of tags because it becomes unclear which of the parallel meanings does apply). cheers Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] What's the point of the Wiki 'k=v' icon?
That the icon is used purely as a place holder & *removed* when a picture is added proves its irrelevance. Why would a newbie care or even need to know the XML structure of the database? The wiki has to be a clear & simple as possible. "I see that icon as an indication that the detail I'm looking at has a assortment of icons within the page." "the only way of viewing data tagged by k=v is to search on the raw data rather than expecting an icon to appear on the map." Sorry, but I don't really understand what you've said there. Dave F. On 30/08/2015 20:15, Lester Caine wrote: On 30/08/15 13:02, Dave F. wrote: As it doesn't help anyone learn the basics of OSM, it has no purpose on a wiki & be removed. The fact that there are now two identical icons is a little careless, but that icon has a very valid place on both the original pages ( multiple languages ) that explaon exactly what a tag is, and I see that icon as an indication that the detail I'm looking at has a assortment of icons within the page. YES is some places it has been used where there is not currently an available icon on the rendering which has now been added, but often the only way of viewing data tagged by k=v is to search on the raw data rather than expecting an icon to appear on the map. It has very well defined uses, which may need an element of tidying up, but if you remove it do you start by wiping the basic 'tags' pages? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tags is a basic starting point and k=v makes perfect sense ... --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] What's the point of the Wiki 'k=v' icon?
On 01/09/15 12:14, Dave F. wrote: > That the icon is used purely as a place holder & *removed* when a > picture is added proves its irrelevance. > > Why would a newbie care or even need to know the XML structure of the > database? That there is a lot of material that is NOT rendered on the map is a fact. These do not have icons so the k=v is the IDEAL icon for entries in the wiki that ARE only available as XML data. > The wiki has to be a clear & simple as possible. > > "I see that icon as an indication that the detail I'm looking at has a > assortment of icons within the page." > "the only way of viewing data tagged by k=v is to search on the raw data > rather than expecting an icon to appear on the map." > > Sorry, but I don't really understand what you've said there. You seem to think that every page only as a single icon associated with it? A large number of pages have a column for the icon that relates to those sub-entries the page describes. Some sub-elements will again not be available rendered on a map. Perhaps we should simply strip the icon on the page header when there is no single selection, but it is a useful prompt that the page contains key/value data rather than other types of material. Are we now saying that the wiki is only allowed to document key/value elements that are rendered and therefore have to have icons defined? The growing number of maps do have different lists of rendered objects so even the fact that a page has an icon does not mean you will see it on the map you are looking at. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] What's the point of the Wiki 'k=v' icon?
On 30/08/2015 10:34, Dave F. wrote: I'm looking for either a valid reason to keep it if there is none, remove it. Poor/lazy wiki page design doesn't seem a valid one. Neither is giving irrelevant, baffling info to newbies. We're meant to be encouraging people to join in, not turn them away. It's a wiki. If you think you can improve it, do so. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] What's the point of the Wiki 'k=v' icon?
On 27/08/2015 11:13, Maarten Deen wrote: On 2015-08-27 11:21, Dave F. wrote: On 26/08/2015 21:54, Andrew Hain wrote: Dave F. davefox at madasafish.com writes: Hi Bearing in mind the wiki is used more often by new OSM contributors therefore should be a clear concise as possible, I'm curious why this icon is so prevalent: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/thumb/5/5f/Osm_element_tag.sv g/200px-Osm_element_tag.svg.png There's no description of what it means or relates to. It refers purely to 'behind the scenes' business. New users are interested in that. Even if it were described, it would still be irrelevant as *all* tags are based on a key=value format. The graphic is used when there isn’t a specific image to put in a tag value infobox, with a k= graphic for key descriptions. A “No image yet” graphic used to be used. The message is buried within the {{description}} template. Although there are some pages that could have pictures but don’t it doesn’t always make sense to have one. If there's not a specific image, can't it just be ignored start with 'description' or whatever? The k=v icons are irrelevant to people who edit the map. It is a placeholder image that probably the person making the first page about a key/value combination made and got taken over in the template and though that mechanism got so prominent in all tag pages. Don't look for more behind it. Unsure what you mean by that last comment. I'm looking for either a valid reason to keep it if there is none, remove it. Poor/lazy wiki page design doesn't seem a valid one. Neither is giving irrelevant, baffling info to newbies. We're meant to be encouraging people to join in, not turn them away. BTW: why are there two k=v images in the wiki? Some reconstructing leads to the wiki page of this image at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Osm_element_tag.svg but there is also http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Mf_tag.svg The Mf_tag.svg image is used in pages where the key-value system is explained, so the image is not unnecessary as such. But since Osm_element_tag.svg is more abundantly used, I propose to change all occurences of Mf_tag.svg to Osm_element_tag.svg. Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] What's the point of the Wiki 'k=v' icon?
On 30/08/15 13:02, Dave F. wrote: As it doesn't help anyone learn the basics of OSM, it has no purpose on a wiki be removed. The fact that there are now two identical icons is a little careless, but that icon has a very valid place on both the original pages ( multiple languages ) that explaon exactly what a tag is, and I see that icon as an indication that the detail I'm looking at has a assortment of icons within the page. YES is some places it has been used where there is not currently an available icon on the rendering which has now been added, but often the only way of viewing data tagged by k=v is to search on the raw data rather than expecting an icon to appear on the map. It has very well defined uses, which may need an element of tidying up, but if you remove it do you start by wiping the basic 'tags' pages? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tags is a basic starting point and k=v makes perfect sense ... -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] What's the point of the Wiki 'k=v' icon?
I'd love to, but know I'd make a pigs ear of it. Unlike many people I'm aware of my limitations. Those limitations, however, are not valid reasons for keeping this icon. As it doesn't help anyone learn the basics of OSM, it has no purpose on a wiki be removed. Dave F. On 30/08/2015 11:50, ajt1...@gmail.com wrote: On 30/08/2015 10:34, Dave F. wrote: I'm looking for either a valid reason to keep it if there is none, remove it. Poor/lazy wiki page design doesn't seem a valid one. Neither is giving irrelevant, baffling info to newbies. We're meant to be encouraging people to join in, not turn them away. It's a wiki. If you think you can improve it, do so. Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] What's the point of the Wiki 'k=v' icon?
On 2015-08-27 11:21, Dave F. wrote: On 26/08/2015 21:54, Andrew Hain wrote: Dave F. davefox at madasafish.com writes: Hi Bearing in mind the wiki is used more often by new OSM contributors therefore should be a clear concise as possible, I'm curious why this icon is so prevalent: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/thumb/5/5f/Osm_element_tag.sv g/200px-Osm_element_tag.svg.png There's no description of what it means or relates to. It refers purely to 'behind the scenes' business. New users are interested in that. Even if it were described, it would still be irrelevant as *all* tags are based on a key=value format. The graphic is used when there isn’t a specific image to put in a tag value infobox, with a k= graphic for key descriptions. A “No image yet” graphic used to be used. The message is buried within the {{description}} template. Although there are some pages that could have pictures but don’t it doesn’t always make sense to have one. If there's not a specific image, can't it just be ignored start with 'description' or whatever? The k=v icons are irrelevant to people who edit the map. It is a placeholder image that probably the person making the first page about a key/value combination made and got taken over in the template and though that mechanism got so prominent in all tag pages. Don't look for more behind it. BTW: why are there two k=v images in the wiki? Some reconstructing leads to the wiki page of this image at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Osm_element_tag.svg but there is also http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Mf_tag.svg The Mf_tag.svg image is used in pages where the key-value system is explained, so the image is not unnecessary as such. But since Osm_element_tag.svg is more abundantly used, I propose to change all occurences of Mf_tag.svg to Osm_element_tag.svg. Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] What's the point of the Wiki 'k=v' icon?
On 26/08/2015 21:54, Andrew Hain wrote: Dave F. davefox at madasafish.com writes: Hi Bearing in mind the wiki is used more often by new OSM contributors therefore should be a clear concise as possible, I'm curious why this icon is so prevalent: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/thumb/5/5f/Osm_element_tag.sv g/200px-Osm_element_tag.svg.png There's no description of what it means or relates to. It refers purely to 'behind the scenes' business. New users are interested in that. Even if it were described, it would still be irrelevant as *all* tags are based on a key=value format. The graphic is used when there isn’t a specific image to put in a tag value infobox, with a k= graphic for key descriptions. A “No image yet” graphic used to be used. The message is buried within the {{description}} template. Although there are some pages that could have pictures but don’t it doesn’t always make sense to have one. If there's not a specific image, can't it just be ignored start with 'description' or whatever? The k=v icons are irrelevant to people who edit the map. In a similar vein I notice a few wiki pages concerning tagging have XML OSM database code. Completely unnecessary again, might put off users who believe you have to have programming experience to contribute. Where? Of the top of my head: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:multipolygon The information it's trying to convey could be written in a much clearer, more understandable layout. A while back I noticed a few others, but didn't keep a record. They may have been upgraded since. Cheers Dave F. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] What's the point of the Wiki 'k=v' icon?
Dave F. davefox at madasafish.com writes: Hi Bearing in mind the wiki is used more often by new OSM contributors therefore should be a clear concise as possible, I'm curious why this icon is so prevalent: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/thumb/5/5f/Osm_element_tag.sv g/200px-Osm_element_tag.svg.png There's no description of what it means or relates to. It refers purely to 'behind the scenes' business. New users are interested in that. Even if it were described, it would still be irrelevant as *all* tags are based on a key=value format. The graphic is used when there isn’t a specific image to put in a tag value infobox, with a k= graphic for key descriptions. A “No image yet” graphic used to be used. The message is buried within the {{description}} template. Although there are some pages that could have pictures but don’t it doesn’t always make sense to have one. In a similar vein I notice a few wiki pages concerning tagging have XML OSM database code. Completely unnecessary again, might put off users who believe you have to have programming experience to contribute. Where? Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk