Re: [talk-au] park vs nature reserve

[Steve Bennett]

On Tue, Jun 25, 2013 at 5:42 PM, Andrew Elwell  wrote:
> Can someone point me to guidelines for where the .au distinction
> between the two lies?

Great question. For my part, I'm pretty lazy and just tag everything
as leisure=park, and hope that someone else will clean it up :) Within
cities, it will be hard to come up with clear guidelines to apply the
tags: nature reserves that are called "X park", parks that are called
"X reserve", parks that contain conservation reserves within them, and
vice versa.

There is some not-very-enlightening text here:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines#.28National.2C_State_etc.29_Parks

If you come up with any guidelines it would be great to document them there.

Steve

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Re: [talk-au] park vs nature reserve

[David Bannon]

Andrew, I don't think the current definitions in OSM provide well for
the range of 'parks' you will encounter. I think its probably best to
try and at least define the borders between various sections, even if
you end up labeling them all with the same.

For example near me there is a section of National Park, State Forest
and State Conservation Reserve, all adjoining. Before the OSM licensing
issues a few years ago, this was all presented as one homogeneous lump,
clearly wrong. Better to get the areas mapped and if later, better tags
come into use, easy to update.

Tags worth thinking about -

landuse=forest; recreation_ground; conservation (last one unapproved)

leisure=park; nature_reserve; dog_park

boundary=national_park

I don't think the definitions of any of them are very helpful to be
honest. I use boundary=national_park for parks we would clearly identify
as not being a "National Park" but its the closest we have.

David



On Tue, 2013-06-25 at 15:42 +0800, Andrew Elwell wrote:
> Can someone point me to guidelines for where the .au distinction
> between the two lies?
> 
> I'm trying to map piney lakes (see
> http://www.melvillecity.com.au/environment/piney-lakes/copy_of_piney-lakes-bushlands
> ) which has a park-like southern area and a bushlands reserve to the
> north. Do I split the area into two? define some relation?
> 
> similarly any advice on the dogs allowed part?
> 
> Andrew
> 
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[talk-au] Using OSM Inspector

[Brett Russell]

Hi

I have been having a look at OSM Inspector and noticed an error it picked up in 
my mapping.  It is Lake Picone in Tasmania and has an island in it so done as a 
multipolygon relationship.  Can some familiar with mapping such things have a 
look at it and let me know what I should be doing. 

Much appreciated any help to improve my mapping. 

Cheers
Brett Russell
PO Box 94
Launceston Tas. 7250
Australia
0419 374 971
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Re: [talk-au] Using OSM Inspector

[Ian Sergeant]

Hi Brett,

The relation it appears OSMI is complaining about:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/3007272/history

The relation that appears is there now:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/3018458/history

Ian.


On 26 June 2013 12:26, Brett Russell  wrote:

> Hi
>
> I have been having a look at OSM Inspector and noticed an error it picked
> up in my mapping.  It is Lake Picone in Tasmania and has an island in it so
> done as a multipolygon relationship.  Can some familiar with mapping such
> things have a look at it and let me know what I should be doing.
>
> Much appreciated any help to improve my mapping.
>
> Cheers
> Brett Russell
> PO Box 94
> Launceston Tas. 7250
> Australia
> 0419 374 971
> ___
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>
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Re: [talk-au] Using OSM Inspector

[Brett Russell]

Hi Ian
 
Thanks for looking at this.  Err, I not to sure what I am looking for as this 
is the first time I have seen changesets.  
 
One strange thing though.  In Polatch 2 the lake is no longer coloured blue 
like other lakes.  Is this a side effect of having an island?  
 
Cheers Brett 
 
From: inas66+...@gmail.com
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2013 13:51:27 +1000
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Using OSM Inspector
To: brussell...@live.com.au
CC: talk-au@openstreetmap.org

Hi Brett,

The relation it appears OSMI is complaining about:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/3007272/history



The relation that appears is there now:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/3018458/history

Ian.




On 26 June 2013 12:26, Brett Russell  wrote:


Hi



I have been having a look at OSM Inspector and noticed an error it picked up in 
my mapping.  It is Lake Picone in Tasmania and has an island in it so done as a 
multipolygon relationship.  Can some familiar with mapping such things have a 
look at it and let me know what I should be doing.





Much appreciated any help to improve my mapping.



Cheers

Brett Russell

PO Box 94

Launceston Tas. 7250

Australia

0419 374 971

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Re: [talk-au] Using OSM Inspector

[Ian Sergeant]

Well OSMI takes a while to update sometimes.

However the history of the relations tells us that the ways that made up
the original relation were deleted, new ways were created and added to a
new relation.

This left an empty relation.  The existing relation may or may not have had
a bad geometry, I'm not going to bother checking it, but the new one you
have created appears perfectly fine.

In terms of mapping style, I guess that you removed the old ways that made
up the original relation in order to improve on them.  However, that left
an empty relation.  Empty relations are very easy to lose track of because
they have no location information left in them.  Personally I think there
should be a warning as you are removing the last object from a relation,
because it isn't something you really want to do.

Ian.




On 26 June 2013 15:02, Brett Russell  wrote:

> Hi Ian
>
> Thanks for looking at this.  Err, I not to sure what I am looking for as
> this is the first time I have seen changesets.
>
> One strange thing though.  In Polatch 2 the lake is no longer coloured
> blue like other lakes.  Is this a side effect of having an island?
>
> Cheers Brett
>
> --
> From: inas66+...@gmail.com
> Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2013 13:51:27 +1000
> Subject: Re: [talk-au] Using OSM Inspector
> To: brussell...@live.com.au
> CC: talk-au@openstreetmap.org
>
>
> Hi Brett,
>
> The relation it appears OSMI is complaining about:
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/3007272/history
>
> The relation that appears is there now:
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/3018458/history
>
> Ian.
>
>
> On 26 June 2013 12:26, Brett Russell  wrote:
>
> Hi
>
> I have been having a look at OSM Inspector and noticed an error it picked
> up in my mapping.  It is Lake Picone in Tasmania and has an island in it so
> done as a multipolygon relationship.  Can some familiar with mapping such
> things have a look at it and let me know what I should be doing.
>
> Much appreciated any help to improve my mapping.
>
> Cheers
> Brett Russell
> PO Box 94
> Launceston Tas. 7250
> Australia
> 0419 374 971
> ___
> Talk-au mailing list
> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>
>
>
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[talk-au] park vs nature reserve

[Andrew Elwell]

Can someone point me to guidelines for where the .au distinction
between the two lies?

I'm trying to map piney lakes (see
http://www.melvillecity.com.au/environment/piney-lakes/copy_of_piney-lakes-bushlands
) which has a park-like southern area and a bushlands reserve to the
north. Do I split the area into two? define some relation?

similarly any advice on the dogs allowed part?

Andrew

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Re: [talk-au] park vs nature reserve

[Paul Norman]

> From: Andrew Elwell [mailto:andrew.elw...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2013 12:43 AM
> To: talk-au@openstreetmap.org
> Subject: [talk-au] park vs nature reserve
> 
> Can someone point me to guidelines for where the .au distinction between
> the two lies?
> 
> I'm trying to map piney lakes (see
> http://www.melvillecity.com.au/environment/piney-lakes/copy_of_piney-
> lakes-bushlands
> ) which has a park-like southern area and a bushlands reserve to the
> north. Do I split the area into two? define some relation?

My guess is there is a leisure=park inside the nature reserve.

It's important to remember that leisure=park doesn't apply to all parks.
There have been cases where people have misapplied to large rural parks,
which don't fit the definition of leisure=park. I'm not saying that's the
case here, just that it's happened.


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Re: [talk-au] park vs nature reserve

[SomeoneElse]

Paul Norman wrote:
It's important to remember that leisure=park doesn't apply to all parks. 


I'm guessing that the second "park" in that sentence is used in the 
North American "national/state park" sense whereas the one in the 
original question usage sounded closer to British English usage*.


However one example, Kings Park in Perth, has it's entire area as a 
"leisure=park", even the "maintained bushland" part:


http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/4850399

This does make some sense to me as the maintenance of the bushlands part 
is surely just as artificial as the manicured lawns to the east.  The 
first English stateley home parks were very much "highly engineered to 
look natural" too.


Cheers,
Andy

* IANA Australian, so can't particularly comment on that...


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Re: [talk-au] JOSM uploads past 2000 points

[Ross Scanlon]

Hi,

When you click on Upload then there is an Advanced tab.

Settings are in there.

Cheers
Ross


On 25/06/13 17:56, Brett Russell wrote:

Hi

My menu is File, Edit, View, Tools, Presets, Imagery, Windows, Audio, Help.

Were will I find the settings you mention?

Cheers Brett

 > Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2013 16:54:57 +1000
 > From: i...@4x4falcon.com
 > To: brussell...@live.com.au; talk-au@openstreetmap.org
 > Subject: Re: [talk-au] JOSM uploads past 2000 points
 >
 > Hi,
 >
 > As Ian points out
 >
 > Upload->Advanced->Chunks
 >
 > or
 >
 > Upload->Advanced->Individually
 >
 > Cheers
 > Ross
 >
 >
 > On 25/06/13 15:44, Ian Sergeant wrote:
 > > Hi,
 > >
 > > I don't know quite what happened, but the relation and all the ways
were
 > > duplicated four times.
 > >
 > > I deleted three of them.
 > >
 > > You can specify in the advanced settings of josm to upload the
changeset
 > > in smaller chunks. I find this is useful.
 > >
 > > Ian.
 > >
 > >
 > > On 25 June 2013 13:43, Brett Russell  > > wrote:
 > >
 > > Hi Ross
 > >
 > > Thanks for the info. I will give it a shot and look for the node count.
 > >
 > > I have when creating a way found hovering back over it down the
 > > bottom of the screen it will tell me the nodes used.
 > >
 > > What I have found if I create a way of say 1500 nodes and upload,
 > > then create another way of say the same number of nodes, and then
 > > upload and finally then create a multipolygon relationship and tag
 > > the properties and upload all works well. But if I do it in one step
 > > and then upload I strike the mentioned problem. My worry is
 > > multiple uploads as they are a pain to find, edit and or remove.
 > > Just want to keep OSM data a clean as possible and not corrupt the
 > > database.
 > >
 > > From memory moving a large multipolygon lake in JOSM creates a
 > > similar problem. So I align lakes in Polatch 2 and all works well.
 > >
 > > Finding JOSM very powerful but still very much a newbie with it.
 > >
 > > Cheers
 > > Brett Russell
 > > PO Box 94
 > > Launceston Tas. 7250
 > > Australia
 > > 0419 374 971
 > >
 > > On 25/06/2013, at 1:25 PM, "Ross Scanlon"  > > wrote:
 > >
 > > >> Hi
 > > >>
 > > >> I am all to aware of the 2000 node limit with OSM but when using
 > > JOSM to
 > > >> create lakes as multipolygons from multiple ways it is easier to
 > > create
 > > >> the ways, link them a multipolygon relationship, tag properties and
 > > >> upload. JOSM then creates a change set and gives five tries and
 > > fails so
 > > >> if you hit upload again it tries again. Strangely if I use
 > > Polatch 2 to
 > > >> check I nearly always find the lake is added to OSM. On at least one
 > > >> occasion JOSM uploaded the lake more than once. In fact five
 > > times. I
 > > >> have to exit JOSM and restart it to avoid the changeset wanting to
 > > >> endlessly upload,
 > > >
 > > > Rather than restarting josm:
 > > >
 > > > Upload->Changesets->Upload to a new Changeset
 > > >
 > > > The old changeset will time out and you can upload to new
 > > changeset(s) from there on.
 > > >
 > > >> Has anyone else experienced this issue. Reading on the web
 > > suggests this
 > > >> is a common problem with some claiming a configuration setting
 > > in JOSM
 > > >> can eliminate this issue.
 > > >
 > > > Don't know about a config setting but if you have the Selection
 > > panel open on the right hand side of the window, then select the
 > > object it will tell you how many nodes are used by it. It is then a
 > > simple matter to split (Tools->Split Way) the way into two (or more)
 > > pieces. If its a loop way then select two (or more) nodes on
 > > opposite sides and then split it.
 > > >
 > > > If you do the split after adding all the tags or creating the
 > > multipolygon they are copied to the new way.
 > > >
 > > > Cheers
 > > > Ross
 > > >
 > > >
 > > >> As usual any help would be appreciated as you can imagine it is
 > > >> frustrating when mapping large lakes.
 > > >>
 > > >> Cheers
 > > >>
 > > >> Brett
 > > >>
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 > > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
 > > >>
 > > >>
 > > >>
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 > > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
 > >
 > >
 >



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Re: [talk-au] JOSM uploads past 2000 points

[Ross Scanlon]

Hi,

As Ian points out

Upload->Advanced->Chunks

or

Upload->Advanced->Individually

Cheers
Ross


On 25/06/13 15:44, Ian Sergeant wrote:

Hi,

I don't know quite what happened, but the relation and all the ways were
duplicated four times.

I deleted three of them.

You can specify in the advanced settings of josm to upload the changeset
in smaller chunks.  I find this is useful.

Ian.


On 25 June 2013 13:43, Brett Russell mailto:brussell...@live.com.au>> wrote:

Hi Ross

Thanks for the info. I will give it a shot and look for the node count.

I have when creating a way found hovering back over it down the
bottom of the screen it will tell me the nodes used.

What I have found if I create a way of say 1500 nodes and upload,
then create another way of say the same number of nodes, and then
upload and finally then create a multipolygon relationship and tag
the properties and upload all works well. But if I do it in one step
and then upload I strike the mentioned problem.   My worry is
multiple uploads as they are a pain to find, edit and or remove.
  Just want to keep OSM data a clean as possible and not corrupt the
database.

 From memory moving a large multipolygon lake in JOSM creates a
similar problem. So I align lakes in Polatch 2 and all works well.

Finding JOSM very powerful but still very much a newbie with it.

Cheers
Brett Russell
PO Box 94
Launceston Tas. 7250
Australia
0419 374 971

On 25/06/2013, at 1:25 PM, "Ross Scanlon" mailto:i...@4x4falcon.com>> wrote:

 >> Hi
 >>
 >> I am all to aware of the 2000 node limit with OSM but when using
JOSM to
 >> create lakes as multipolygons from multiple ways it is easier to
create
 >> the ways, link them a multipolygon relationship, tag properties and
 >> upload. JOSM then creates a change set and gives five tries and
fails so
 >> if you hit upload again it tries again. Strangely if I use
Polatch 2 to
 >> check I nearly always find the lake is added to OSM. On at least one
 >> occasion JOSM uploaded the lake more than once. In fact five
times. I
 >> have to exit JOSM and restart it to avoid the changeset wanting to
 >> endlessly upload,
 >
 > Rather than restarting josm:
 >
 > Upload->Changesets->Upload to a new Changeset
 >
 > The old changeset will time out and you can upload to new
changeset(s) from there on.
 >
 >> Has anyone else experienced this issue. Reading on the web
suggests this
 >> is a common problem with some claiming a configuration setting
in JOSM
 >> can eliminate this issue.
 >
 > Don't know about a config setting but if you have the Selection
panel open on the right hand side of the window, then select the
object it will tell you how many nodes are used by it.  It is then a
simple matter to split (Tools->Split Way) the way into two (or more)
pieces.  If its a loop way then select two (or more) nodes on
opposite sides and then split it.
 >
 > If you do the split after adding all the tags or creating the
multipolygon they are copied to the new way.
 >
 > Cheers
 > Ross
 >
 >
 >> As usual any help would be appreciated as you can imagine it is
 >> frustrating when mapping large lakes.
 >>
 >> Cheers
 >>
 >> Brett
 >>
 >> ___ Talk-au mailing list
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http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
 >>
 >>
 >>
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 >
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Re: [talk-au] park vs nature reserve

[Paul Norman]

> From: SomeoneElse [mailto:li...@mail.atownsend.org.uk]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2013 1:47 AM
> To: talk-au@openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [talk-au] park vs nature reserve
> 
> Paul Norman wrote:
> > It's important to remember that leisure=park doesn't apply to all
> parks.
> 
> I'm guessing that the second "park" in that sentence is used in the
> North American "national/state park" sense whereas the one in the
> original question usage sounded closer to British English usage*.
> 
> However one example, Kings Park in Perth, has it's entire area as a
> "leisure=park", even the "maintained bushland" part:
> 
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/4850399

I've not been to Perth, so I can't comment, but based on the paths, I could
see it being either way.

> This does make some sense to me as the maintenance of the bushlands part
> is surely just as artificial as the manicured lawns to the east.  The
> first English stateley home parks were very much "highly engineered to
> look natural" too.

The examples I was thinking of were places like Yellowstone National Park
(http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/1453306) which is about 9
thousand square kilometers, or closer to me, the North Cascades, which is
notable for its rugged mountain peaks.

A comparable Australian example would be if someone tagged Litchfield
National Park as leisure=park


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