Re: [talk-au] Road name abbreviation exception?

[Andrew Harvey]

For places like `St Peters` and `St Leonards` the `St` abbreviation has
become widely accepted by the community to the point that it's almost no
longer an abbreviation. So I'd say it should be `St Peters` and not use
`Saint Peters` even as an alt_name.
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Re: [talk-au] Road name abbreviation exception?

[Adrian Hobbs]

Maybe I am missing something here, but to my mind road and place naming 
is pretty clear cut. See:-


"Guidelines for the determination of place names" a fact sheet by the 
Geographic Names Board of NSW

http://www.gnb.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0010/58843/Guidelines_determination_placenames_2017.pdf

and

"6.7 Principles of Road naming" page 97 of the NSW Addressing User Manual
http://www.gnb.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0007/199411/2018_NSW_Addressing_User_Manual.pdf

Although these relate to NSW, I imagine there are similar arrangements 
in all states and territories.


If OSM uses anything different it will only cause difficulties. I guess 
that, as with all standards, there will be exceptions.

But OSM should then go with whatever the legal name is.

Cheers
Adrian Hobbs

tel: 0427 310 938
email: adrian.ho...@grapevine.com.au



On 29/06/2018 9:08 PM, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

Warin wrote:

I expand these out to Saint. I think that is correct in the English
language.

It is expressly _incorrect_ in British English and if this were a UK
discussion you would be asked to put them back to St. I can't speak for
Australian English but it wouldn't surprise me if it were the same.

https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/19609/saint-or-st-is-there-an-official-osm-policy

Richard



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Re: [talk-au] Pathogen Control Stations

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 30 June 2018 at 09:57, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> To avoid future misuse of the tag there needs to be 2 tags
>
> One for cleansing - elimination of contaminates
>
> The other for cleaning - beautification
>
>
>
> man_made=boot_cleansing
> or
> man_made=boot_purging
>
> Any other ideas as to words to use?
>

How about

man_made=boot_decontamination?

Makes it pretty obvious that you're just talking about getting them
polished!

Will also reply on the other list!
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Re: [talk-au] Pathogen Control Stations

[Warin]

To avoid future misuse of the tag there needs to be 2 tags

One for cleansing - elimination of contaminates

The other for cleaning - beautification

If only one tag were made people would use it for both functions.
 I really do want to avoid the misuse of the tag by those who cannot be 
bothered to make a more correct tag.


In order to separate the two I like to distinguish them by using shoe 
for the beautification/cleaning and boot for the cleansing/purging.
The boot is usually seen as the more rugged of the two and usually taken 
as the thing used for bush-walking/tramping etc.


So possibly

man_made=shoe_cleaning

and

man_made=boot_cleansing
or
man_made=boot_purging

Any other ideas as to words to use?
I like that purging is a significantly different form from cleaning - 
leading to more visual separation between the two tags.


 - On 30/06/18 01:43, Jonathon Rossi wrote:

Thanks Warin,

I read your suggestion for "man_made=boot_cleansing", I'd opt for 
"man_made=shoe_cleansing" since I don't wear boots but running shoes 
as a runner not a hiker. The QPWS web site mentions "footwear", I 
think shoe would be the most inclusive term.


P.S. Sorry I didn't reply on the tagging list, don't know of any way 
to reply to that thread without having received those emails.


On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 9:06 AM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> wrote:


Don't know - nothing in OSM I can see.

I'll ask on the tagging list and see what they say.

Note .. it may well not render/show up on the maps for sometime even
once there is a tag and there are a few 100 mapped.


On 28/06/18 21:49, Jonathon Rossi wrote:
> Throughout the Gold Coast Hinterland (including Lamington and
> Springbrook National Parks) there are pathogen control stations.
These
> are designed to be used by humans to reduce soil and other
> contaminates being carried on shoes between sections of the
national
> parks.
>
> Many have big brushes (mounted facing up) to clean soil out of your
> shoes and a disinfectant applier for the base of your shoe, example
> photo:
>

https://www.npsr.qld.gov.au/parks/lamington/images/pathogen-control-station.jpg
>
> I mapped one last week in Springbrook NP, however couldn't find any
> relevant tags to apply to the node. Has anyone mapped them or seen
> them mapped in OSM before? Is there anything similar that could
be a
> relevant tag?
>
>


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Re: [talk-au] Road name abbreviation exception?

[Warin]

On 29/06/18 21:08, Richard Fairhurst wrote:


Warin wrote:

I expand these out to Saint. I think that is correct in the English
language.

It is expressly _incorrect_ in British English and if this were a UK
discussion you would be asked to put them back to St. I can't speak for
Australian English but it wouldn't surprise me if it were the same.

https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/19609/saint-or-st-is-there-an-official-osm-policy

Richard


Humm I'll wait until I get my hands on the OZie Govts 'Style Guide'..

However .. The UK does not look like a good guide as to what to do?

Saint Paul's Cathedral way 369161987 ...

has the name 'Saint Paul's Cathedral' (and has that name for over 2 years) .. 
surrounding features are named 'St Paul's" and others named 'Saint Paul's' .. 
rather inconsistent!

Are the signs there that inconsistent too?


There is also a suggestion to use short_name for the St abbreviation.
But I'll wait till I get the guide .. end of next week?


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Re: [talk-au] Pathogen Control Stations

[Jonathon Rossi]

Thanks Warin,

I read your suggestion for "man_made=boot_cleansing", I'd opt for
"man_made=shoe_cleansing" since I don't wear boots but running shoes as a
runner not a hiker. The QPWS web site mentions "footwear", I think shoe
would be the most inclusive term.

P.S. Sorry I didn't reply on the tagging list, don't know of any way to
reply to that thread without having received those emails.

On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 9:06 AM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Don't know - nothing in OSM I can see.
>
> I'll ask on the tagging list and see what they say.
>
> Note .. it may well not render/show up on the maps for sometime even
> once there is a tag and there are a few 100 mapped.
>
>
> On 28/06/18 21:49, Jonathon Rossi wrote:
> > Throughout the Gold Coast Hinterland (including Lamington and
> > Springbrook National Parks) there are pathogen control stations. These
> > are designed to be used by humans to reduce soil and other
> > contaminates being carried on shoes between sections of the national
> > parks.
> >
> > Many have big brushes (mounted facing up) to clean soil out of your
> > shoes and a disinfectant applier for the base of your shoe, example
> > photo:
> >
> https://www.npsr.qld.gov.au/parks/lamington/images/pathogen-control-station.jpg
> >
> > I mapped one last week in Springbrook NP, however couldn't find any
> > relevant tags to apply to the node. Has anyone mapped them or seen
> > them mapped in OSM before? Is there anything similar that could be a
> > relevant tag?
> >
> >
>
>
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Re: [talk-au] Road name abbreviation exception?

[Richard Fairhurst]

Warin wrote:
> I expand these out to Saint. I think that is correct in the English
> language.

It is expressly _incorrect_ in British English and if this were a UK
discussion you would be asked to put them back to St. I can't speak for
Australian English but it wouldn't surprise me if it were the same.

https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/19609/saint-or-st-is-there-an-official-osm-policy

Richard



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Re: [talk-au] Road name abbreviation exception?

[Michael]

>From “The Cambridge Guide to Australian English Usage”

 

Page 713-714 https://books.google.com.au/books?id=FKpcDwAAQBAJ

 

Saint or St The conventions for writing saints' names depend on the context:

whether it's a reference to the saint himself or herself, or to an institution 
or place

named after them.

  The names of saints are only prefaced by Saint in books which describe their

life and works. Incidental references to them in history books and encyclopedias

are usually abbreviated to St. In the indexes to religious books, saints' names 
are entered

alphabetically according to their given names, with Saint following:

  Thomas Aquinas, Saint

In other references St is used, Churches are identified this way: St Mary's 
Cathedral,

St John's Church, as are other associated institutions: Brotherhood of St 
Laurence, St

Vincent de Paul. Purely secular institutions such as the St George Building 
Society

and the St Kilda Football Club naturally use the abbreviation.

 

It goes on but I can’t copy-paste from there so I had to type that, feel free 
to read it at your leisure.

 

Michael

 

 

From: Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> 
Sent: Friday, 29 June 2018 6:04 PM
To: talk-au@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Road name abbreviation exception?

 

Many church names in Australia have names containing 'Saint' followed by a 
persons name these are are commonly abbreviated 'St'.
I expand these out to Saint. I think that is correct in the English language. 
 
I don't think the alt_name should carry the abbreviation, nor an expanded 
version. 
 
For St Leonards .. there are two Saint Leonards 
Saint Leonard of Port Maurice 1676-1751
Saint Leonard of Noblac -559
 
Saint Peter is well known ... well one of them at least. :) 
 
 Following a UK example? 
Having a bet both ways ? In the UK a search on St Leonard lead me to 
 
Node: Drayton Saint Leonard (21268304) - Saint - centre of the place.
Relation: Drayton St. Leonard (1864544)- St. - parish boundary.
 
Yes these are both the same area. 
 
So .. for the suburbs/towns/villages at least it can be done both ways .. 
without using alt_name.  


On 29/06/18 17:31, Michael wrote:

The usage of Saint “Name” is wrong in the English language and should not be 
used.

 

The only time you use that notation is when you write about the person 
specifically.

 

Also in French Saint “Name” is acceptable just to be confusing, but this about 
Australian names and they should all be English (Unlike Canada)

 

What we might have to consider is that in indexing you use Saint not St, do we 
need to have it explicitly in the tagging (ie alt_name) or is this the 
responsibility of the renderer to work out?

 

Michael

 

 

From: Nemanja Bračko    
Sent: Friday, 29 June 2018 5:02 PM
To: phi...@philipmallis.com  
Cc: talk-au@openstreetmap.org  
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Road name abbreviation exception?

 

​​

Hi!
The easiest way is to add alt_name with abbreviation. Also if community agrees, 
it is possible to put abbreviation in the name tag (because of rendering name 
on the map), but use "Saint" as alt_name.

 

Best Regrads,

Nemanja

 

On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 5:18 AM Philip Mallis mailto:phi...@philipmallis.com> > wrote:

It depends on the context. St Kilda in Melbourne is another example where that 
is used instead of 'Saint'.

Sent from my iPhone


On 29 Jun 2018, at 10:28, cleary mailto:o...@97k.com> > wrote:

In New South Wales, the Geographic Names Board register shows the Sydney suburb 
Mount Druitt (no abbreviation) while the adjacent suburb is St Marys (always St 
and never Saint). The same applies to places named St Peters and St Leonards. 
Using the word "Saint" would not accord with the places' official names. 

 

I understand there is a tendency to remove sectarian references so that "St" 
can be pronounced as the speaker wishes and is not necessarily "Saint".

 

 

 

 

On Fri, Jun 29, 2018, at 5:21 AM, Nathan Ginther (Insight Global Inc) wrote:

Hello all, our team has come into an interesting situation regarding road name 
abbreviations, we know that as a policy we spell out any and all abbreviations 
on the OSM map, however it looks like we may have run into an exception in the 
use of “Saint vs St” 
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Invalid_Abbreviation_Expansion).  It looks 
like the use of “St” instead of spelling out “Saint” is accepted within the 
mapping community, and might be the proper English spelling, but we want to get 
the response from the community as what is the accepted/preferred use when 
naming roads specifically, should we be spelling out Saint, or using St?

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Re: [talk-au] Road name abbreviation exception?

[Warin]

Further thought;
I'm certain the Federal Governments 'Style Manual for authors, editors and 
printers.' would have something to say on it.

It looks like I can borrow it from a local library.

ISBN 0701636483 (pkb), 0701636475
https://trove.nla.gov.au/work/13429246?q=Style+manual&c=book



On 29/06/18 18:03, Warin wrote:

   
 
   
   
 
   
Many church names in Australia have names containing 'Saint' followed by a persons name these are are commonly abbreviated 'St'.
   
I expand these out to Saint. I think that is correct in the English language.
   
I don't think the alt_name should carry the abbreviation, nor an expanded version.
   
For St Leonards .. there are two Saint Leonards
   
Saint Leonard of Port Maurice 1676-1751
   
Saint Leonard of Noblac -559
   
Saint Peter is well known ... well one of them at least. :)
   
 Following a UK example?
   
Having a bet both ways ? In the UK a search on St Leonard lead me to


Node: Drayton Saint Leonard (21268304) - Saint - centre of the place.
   
Relation: Drayton St. Leonard (1864544)- St. - parish boundary.


Yes these are both the same area.
   
So .. for the suburbs/towns/villages at least it can be done both ways .. without using alt_name.
   


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Re: [talk-au] Road name abbreviation exception?

[Warin]

Many church names in Australia have names containing 'Saint' followed by a 
persons name these are are commonly abbreviated 'St'.

I expand these out to Saint. I think that is correct in the English language.

I don't think the alt_name should carry the abbreviation, nor an expanded 
version.

For St Leonards .. there are two Saint Leonards

Saint Leonard of Port Maurice 1676-1751

Saint Leonard of Noblac -559

Saint Peter is well known ... well one of them at least. :)

 Following a UK example?

Having a bet both ways ? In the UK a search on St Leonard lead me to

Node: Drayton Saint Leonard (21268304) - Saint - centre of the place.

Relation: Drayton St. Leonard (1864544)- St. - parish boundary.

Yes these are both the same area.

So .. for the suburbs/towns/villages at least it can be done both ways .. 
without using alt_name.


On 29/06/18 17:31, Michael wrote:


The usage of Saint “Name” is wrong in the English language and should 
not be used.


The only time you use that notation is when you write about the person 
specifically.


Also in French Saint “Name” is acceptable just to be confusing, but 
this about Australian names and they should all be English (Unlike Canada)


What we might have to consider is that in indexing you use S*a*int not 
S*t*, do we need to have it explicitly in the tagging (ie alt_name) or 
is this the responsibility of the renderer to work out?


Michael

*From:*Nemanja Bračko 
*Sent:* Friday, 29 June 2018 5:02 PM
*To:* phi...@philipmallis.com
*Cc:* talk-au@openstreetmap.org
*Subject:* Re: [talk-au] Road name abbreviation exception?

​​

Hi!
The easiest way is to add alt_name with abbreviation. Also if 
community agrees, it is possible to put abbreviation in the name tag 
(because of rendering name on the map), but use "Saint" as alt_name.


Best Regrads,

Nemanja

On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 5:18 AM Philip Mallis > wrote:


It depends on the context. St Kilda in Melbourne is another
example where that is used instead of 'Saint'.

Sent from my iPhone


On 29 Jun 2018, at 10:28, cleary mailto:o...@97k.com>> wrote:

In New South Wales, the Geographic Names Board register shows
the Sydney suburb Mount Druitt (no abbreviation) while the
adjacent suburb is St Marys (always St and never Saint). The
same applies to places named St Peters and St Leonards. Using
the word "Saint" would not accord with the places' official
names.

I understand there is a tendency to remove sectarian
references so that "St" can be pronounced as the speaker
wishes and is not necessarily "Saint".

On Fri, Jun 29, 2018, at 5:21 AM, Nathan Ginther (Insight
Global Inc) wrote:

Hello all, our team has come into an interesting situation
regarding road name abbreviations, we know that as a
policy we spell out any and all abbreviations on the OSM
map, however it looks like we may have run into an
exception in the use of “Saint vs St”

(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Invalid_Abbreviation_Expansion).
It looks like the use of “St” instead of spelling out
“Saint” is accepted within the mapping community, and
might be the proper English spelling, but we want to get
the response from the community as what is the
accepted/preferred use when naming roads specifically,
should we be spelling out Saint, or using St?

_

Talk-au mailing list

Talk-au@openstreetmap.org 

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au

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Re: [talk-au] Road name abbreviation exception?

[Michael]

The usage of Saint “Name” is wrong in the English language and should not be 
used.

 

The only time you use that notation is when you write about the person 
specifically.

 

Also in French Saint “Name” is acceptable just to be confusing, but this about 
Australian names and they should all be English (Unlike Canada)

 

What we might have to consider is that in indexing you use Saint not St, do we 
need to have it explicitly in the tagging (ie alt_name) or is this the 
responsibility of the renderer to work out?

 

Michael

 

 

From: Nemanja Bračko  
Sent: Friday, 29 June 2018 5:02 PM
To: phi...@philipmallis.com
Cc: talk-au@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Road name abbreviation exception?

 

​​

Hi!
The easiest way is to add alt_name with abbreviation. Also if community agrees, 
it is possible to put abbreviation in the name tag (because of rendering name 
on the map), but use "Saint" as alt_name.

 

Best Regrads,

Nemanja

 

On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 5:18 AM Philip Mallis mailto:phi...@philipmallis.com> > wrote:

It depends on the context. St Kilda in Melbourne is another example where that 
is used instead of 'Saint'.

Sent from my iPhone


On 29 Jun 2018, at 10:28, cleary mailto:o...@97k.com> > wrote:

In New South Wales, the Geographic Names Board register shows the Sydney suburb 
Mount Druitt (no abbreviation) while the adjacent suburb is St Marys (always St 
and never Saint). The same applies to places named St Peters and St Leonards. 
Using the word "Saint" would not accord with the places' official names. 

 

I understand there is a tendency to remove sectarian references so that "St" 
can be pronounced as the speaker wishes and is not necessarily "Saint".

 

 

 

 

On Fri, Jun 29, 2018, at 5:21 AM, Nathan Ginther (Insight Global Inc) wrote:

Hello all, our team has come into an interesting situation regarding road name 
abbreviations, we know that as a policy we spell out any and all abbreviations 
on the OSM map, however it looks like we may have run into an exception in the 
use of “Saint vs St” 
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Invalid_Abbreviation_Expansion).  It looks 
like the use of “St” instead of spelling out “Saint” is accepted within the 
mapping community, and might be the proper English spelling, but we want to get 
the response from the community as what is the accepted/preferred use when 
naming roads specifically, should we be spelling out Saint, or using St?

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Re: [talk-au] Road name abbreviation exception?

[Nemanja Bračko]

​​
Hi!
The easiest way is to add alt_name with abbreviation. Also if community
agrees, it is possible to put abbreviation in the name tag (because of
rendering name on the map), but use "Saint" as alt_name.

Best Regrads,
Nemanja

On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 5:18 AM Philip Mallis 
wrote:

> It depends on the context. St Kilda in Melbourne is another example where
> that is used instead of 'Saint'.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On 29 Jun 2018, at 10:28, cleary  wrote:
>
> In New South Wales, the Geographic Names Board register shows the Sydney
> suburb Mount Druitt (no abbreviation) while the adjacent suburb is St Marys
> (always St and never Saint). The same applies to places named St Peters and
> St Leonards. Using the word "Saint" would not accord with the places'
> official names.
>
> I understand there is a tendency to remove sectarian references so that
> "St" can be pronounced as the speaker wishes and is not necessarily "Saint".
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 29, 2018, at 5:21 AM, Nathan Ginther (Insight Global Inc)
> wrote:
>
> Hello all, our team has come into an interesting situation regarding road
> name abbreviations, we know that as a policy we spell out any and all
> abbreviations on the OSM map, however it looks like we may have run into an
> exception in the use of “Saint vs St” (
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Invalid_Abbreviation_Expansion).  It
> looks like the use of “St” instead of spelling out “Saint” is accepted
> within the mapping community, and might be the proper English spelling, but
> we want to get the response from the community as what is the
> accepted/preferred use when naming roads specifically, should we be
> spelling out Saint, or using St?
> *___*
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