Re: [talk-au] Anyone mind if I tidy the wiki a bit?

[forster]

Thanks OSM community

Here is a draft of a letter to Aaron. He may be listening to this list  
and will read it. I also will post it as a changeset comment. The  
letter is a bit rough, edits are welcome.


Tony

___
Hi Aaron

My sincere thanks on behalf of the Australian Open Street Map  
community for your many contributions to the map.


Unfortunately, there is some dissatisfaction in the Australian Open  
Street Map community with some of your larger edits including wiki  
changes on bikes and paths and the deletion of the Perth bike route  
network.


We ask you to seek consensus from the community before making large  
changes, particularly changes which reverse prior understandings and  
are large in scope.


Your changes to the wiki on bikes and paths are a particular issue in  
this letter. We propose a six step process in reverting the Australian  
Tagging Guidelines to community understandings of tagging practice.


 1 get community support from talk-au for this process
 2 Contact Aaron and get his agreement
 3 Thorsten rolls back the wiki to an agreed state
 4 Dian tidies up the wiki
 5 Aaron does not edit the wiki until Dian has finished
 6 we do not call for DWG intervention unless a party will not follow  
the agreed process


We are at step 2. It is important that we know you have read this  
letter. Please reply by changeset comment or better by a post to  
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/


This is your opportunity to put your case. There is a lot of  
discussion on talk-au regarding your edits. I suggest you read it and  
respond. Please let us know whether you agree with the 6 step process  
and if you do not agree, your reasons.


Thanks
Tony Forster

__

Yep, great plan.

Thanks

Graeme


On Wed, 23 Feb 2022 at 05:28,  wrote:


Hi all
Can I suggest the following

1 get community support from talk au for this process
2 Contact Aaron and get his agreement
3 Thorsten rolls back the wiki to an agreed state
4 Dian tidys up the wiki
5 Aaron does not edit the wiki until Dian has finished
6 we do not call for DWG intervention unless a party will not follow
the agreed process

Tony






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Re: [talk-au] Consistent addr:state format?

[Phil Wyatt]

Many thanks for doing this update

Cheers - Phil

-Original Message-
From: tabjsina  
Sent: Tuesday, 22 February 2022 11:26 PM
To: talk-au@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Consistent addr:state format?

So all of Australia with the exception of Victoria is now fixed to use
capitalized state abbreviations. As mentioned before, Victoria was the state
that had a much closer (though still not entirely close) split between
"Victoria" and "VIC", which leaves a whopping 32k addresses that need to be
updated to "VIC".

While it is entirely possible (and easy) to do this via maproulette, I've
removed the challenge as someone had pointed out to me that 32k individual
changes might be a bit much as far as changesets go.

Are there any concerns with me doing this as a single batch change?

Thanks,
Justin


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Re: [talk-au] 2377 occurrences of fixme="unknown type of water crossing"

[Andrew Harvey]

It's not usually clear to me from imagery if it's a ford or culvert, even
some small bridges may not be visible on imagery, so I think it's safest to
leave these for a survey.



On Wed, 23 Feb 2022 at 14:02, Ewen Hill  wrote:

> Hi,
>   A lot of you may have seen and fixed a node on a road adjacent to a
> stream with a single key of fixme="unknown type of water crossing", what I
> didn't realise until I ran an overpass  query
> 
>  was
> that there were 2377 of these fixme remaining in Australia and they were
> all added by a single organisation.
>
>A lot of these are clearly fords on dry/intermittent creeks and I can't
> see the reason for not mapping these as fords instead of adding the fixme
> note to limit the amount of editing now required to fix these imported
> fixme notes, most from 2018 and 2019.
>
> Row Labels Count of @version
> 1 1649
> 2 604
> 3 104
> 4 12
> 5 5
> 6 1
> 7 1
> 13 1
>
> As the node is adjacent to the stream, I can't see how to easily edit
> these where it is clear it is a bridge or predominantly a ford in an easy
> process. e,g, https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/6839769585
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Ewen
>
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Re: [talk-au] 2377 occurrences of fixme="unknown type of water crossing"

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Wed, 23 Feb 2022 at 13:02, Ewen Hill  wrote:

>
> Any thoughts?
>

Giving it back to "the Organisation" responsible, telling them that's not
acceptable & asking them to fix it?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [talk-au] 2377 occurrences of fixme="unknown type of water crossing"

[osm.talk-au]

I very much doubt anyone actually looked at these when the fixmes were added 
and it was an automated edit that just looked for highway/water crossings 
without tags.

 

From: Ewen Hill  
Sent: Wednesday, 23 February 2022 12:59
To: OSM-Au 
Subject: [talk-au] 2377 occurrences of fixme="unknown type of water crossing"

 

Hi, 

  A lot of you may have seen and fixed a node on a road adjacent to a stream 
with a single key of fixme="unknown type of water crossing", what I didn't 
realise until I ran an overpass 

   query was that there were 2377 of these fixme remaining in Australia and 
they were all added by a single organisation.  

 

   A lot of these are clearly fords on dry/intermittent creeks and I can't see 
the reason for not mapping these as fords instead of adding the fixme note to 
limit the amount of editing now required to fix these imported fixme notes, 
most from 2018 and 2019.

 


Row Labels

Count of @version


1

1649


2

604


3

104


4

12


5

5


6

1


7

1


13

1

 

As the node is adjacent to the stream, I can't see how to easily edit these 
where it is clear it is a bridge or predominantly a ford in an easy process. 
e,g, https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/6839769585 

 

Any thoughts?

 

Ewen

 

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[talk-au] 2377 occurrences of fixme="unknown type of water crossing"

[Ewen Hill]

Hi,
  A lot of you may have seen and fixed a node on a road adjacent to a
stream with a single key of fixme="unknown type of water crossing", what I
didn't realise until I ran an overpass  query

was
that there were 2377 of these fixme remaining in Australia and they were
all added by a single organisation.

   A lot of these are clearly fords on dry/intermittent creeks and I can't
see the reason for not mapping these as fords instead of adding the fixme
note to limit the amount of editing now required to fix these imported
fixme notes, most from 2018 and 2019.

Row Labels Count of @version
1 1649
2 604
3 104
4 12
5 5
6 1
7 1
13 1

As the node is adjacent to the stream, I can't see how to easily edit these
where it is clear it is a bridge or predominantly a ford in an easy
process. e,g, https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/6839769585

Any thoughts?

Ewen
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Re: [talk-au] Consistent addr:state format?

[tabjsina]

Thanks all for the guidance here. I've uploaded the change (required 4 
in the end, as there was a 1 change limit per changeset). Here they are:


https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/117749014
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/117749015
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/117749022
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/117749024

-Justin

On 23/2/2022 7:39 am, Ewen Hill wrote:

Hi Justin,
    I see a single batch change as the preferred route as it has no 
logic other than swapping the values of Victoria and VIC and there is no 
reason why you would want to revert this at all.


Thanks for fixing this anomaly Australia wide and the time you have 
spent on this.


Ewen

On Wed, 23 Feb 2022 at 08:26, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> wrote:


Can't see it being an issue?

Thanks

Graeme


On Tue, 22 Feb 2022 at 22:30, tabjsina mailto:sinatabr...@gmail.com>> wrote:

So all of Australia with the exception of Victoria is now fixed
to use
capitalized state abbreviations. As mentioned before, Victoria
was the
state that had a much closer (though still not entirely close)
split
between "Victoria" and "VIC", which leaves a whopping 32k
addresses that
need to be updated to "VIC".

While it is entirely possible (and easy) to do this via
maproulette,
I've removed the challenge as someone had pointed out to me that
32k
individual changes might be a bit much as far as changesets go.

Are there any concerns with me doing this as a single batch change?

Thanks,
Justin


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--
Warm Regards

Ewen Hill


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Re: [talk-au] Consistent addr:state format?

[Ewen Hill]

Hi Justin,
   I see a single batch change as the preferred route as it has no logic
other than swapping the values of Victoria and VIC and there is no reason
why you would want to revert this at all.

Thanks for fixing this anomaly Australia wide and the time you have spent
on this.

Ewen

On Wed, 23 Feb 2022 at 08:26, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

> Can't see it being an issue?
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
>
> On Tue, 22 Feb 2022 at 22:30, tabjsina  wrote:
>
>> So all of Australia with the exception of Victoria is now fixed to use
>> capitalized state abbreviations. As mentioned before, Victoria was the
>> state that had a much closer (though still not entirely close) split
>> between "Victoria" and "VIC", which leaves a whopping 32k addresses that
>> need to be updated to "VIC".
>>
>> While it is entirely possible (and easy) to do this via maproulette,
>> I've removed the challenge as someone had pointed out to me that 32k
>> individual changes might be a bit much as far as changesets go.
>>
>> Are there any concerns with me doing this as a single batch change?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Justin
>>
>>
>> ___
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>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
>>
> ___
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-- 
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Re: [talk-au] Anyone mind if I tidy the wiki a bit?

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Yep, great plan.

Thanks

Graeme


On Wed, 23 Feb 2022 at 05:28,  wrote:

> Hi all
> Can I suggest the following
>
> 1 get community support from talk au for this process
> 2 Contact Aaron and get his agreement
> 3 Thorsten rolls back the wiki to an agreed state
> 4 Dian tidys up the wiki
> 5 Aaron does not edit the wiki until Dian has finished
> 6 we do not call for DWG intervention unless a party will not follow
> the agreed process
>
> Tony
>
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Re: [talk-au] Consistent addr:state format?

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Can't see it being an issue?

Thanks

Graeme


On Tue, 22 Feb 2022 at 22:30, tabjsina  wrote:

> So all of Australia with the exception of Victoria is now fixed to use
> capitalized state abbreviations. As mentioned before, Victoria was the
> state that had a much closer (though still not entirely close) split
> between "Victoria" and "VIC", which leaves a whopping 32k addresses that
> need to be updated to "VIC".
>
> While it is entirely possible (and easy) to do this via maproulette,
> I've removed the challenge as someone had pointed out to me that 32k
> individual changes might be a bit much as far as changesets go.
>
> Are there any concerns with me doing this as a single batch change?
>
> Thanks,
> Justin
>
>
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>
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Re: [talk-au] Anyone mind if I tidy the wiki a bit?

[Ewen Hill]

Hi Tony,
  I wholeheartedly agree with this process and thank you Dian for making it
easier for new editors.

Ewen

On Wed, 23 Feb 2022 at 06:28,  wrote:

> Hi all
> Can I suggest the following
>
> 1 get community support from talk au for this process
> 2 Contact Aaron and get his agreement
> 3 Thorsten rolls back the wiki to an agreed state
> 4 Dian tidys up the wiki
> 5 Aaron does not edit the wiki until Dian has finished
> 6 we do not call for DWG intervention unless a party will not follow
> the agreed process
>
> Tony
> Quoting osm.talk...@thorsten.engler.id.au:
>
> > Well, rearranging and editing, on top of the questionable edits that
> >  are currently on top of the stack of revisions, will cement these
> > changes and make it harder to revert them.
> >
> >
> >
> > Some of the changes have completely replaced what previously was
> > listed as correct tagging practice with something totally different.
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Dian Ã…gesson 
> > Sent: Wednesday, 23 February 2022 03:04
> > To: osm.talk...@thorsten.engler.id.au
> > Cc: 'OSM Australian Talk List' 
> > Subject: Re: [talk-au] Anyone mind if I tidy the wiki a bit?
> >
> >
> >
> > Hey Thorsten,
> >
> > While I don’t intend to simply rearrange sections verbatim, I want
> >  to focus on tidying, copy editing for spelling/grammar, and
> > consolidating rather than making editorial decisions.
> >
> > As Andrew suggested, I will reach out if there is something
> > egregiously incorrect or contradictory, but I’m not intending to
> > validate the entire wiki for correctness: I feel as though that
> > would be beyond the remit of “tidying†.
> >
> > More than happy to work with simultaneous updates and additions
> > though—I don’t think it’s a task that can be done in one edit!
> >
> > Dian
> >
> > On 2022-02-22 18:54, osm.talk...@thorsten.engler.id.au
> >   wrote:
> >
> > If you do, please make sure to not just incorporate the recent
> > undiscussed, subjective, if not outright wrong changes by Aaronsta.
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Dian Ã…gesson mailto:m...@diacritic.xyz> >
> > Sent: Tuesday, 22 February 2022 17:00
> > To: OSM Australian Talk List  >  >
> > Subject: [talk-au] Anyone mind if I tidy the wiki a bit?
> >
> >
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > The wiki contains loads of really good information, but it's a
> > little bit hard to navigate: the Australian Tagging Guidelines page
> > seems to contain the most current information but is getting very
> > long. There are a lot of state-specific articles that don't seem to
> > have been updated since 2009.
> >
> > I'd like to do a bit of housekeeping: tidy up some of the sections,
> > mark some of the pages as archived, etc, to try and make it more
> > approachable for newbies and more maintainable. Nothing substantive
> > would change, nothing would be deleted. Does anyone have any
> > objections, thoughts or concerns with regard to this?
> >
> >
> >
> > dian
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > Talk-au@openstreetmap.org 
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
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-- 
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Re: [talk-au] Anyone mind if I tidy the wiki a bit?

[forster]

Hi all
Can I suggest the following

1 get community support from talk au for this process
2 Contact Aaron and get his agreement
3 Thorsten rolls back the wiki to an agreed state
4 Dian tidys up the wiki
5 Aaron does not edit the wiki until Dian has finished
6 we do not call for DWG intervention unless a party will not follow  
the agreed process


Tony
Quoting osm.talk...@thorsten.engler.id.au:

Well, rearranging and editing, on top of the questionable edits that  
 are currently on top of the stack of revisions, will cement these   
changes and make it harder to revert them.




Some of the changes have completely replaced what previously was   
listed as correct tagging practice with something totally different.




From: Dian Ågesson 
Sent: Wednesday, 23 February 2022 03:04
To: osm.talk...@thorsten.engler.id.au
Cc: 'OSM Australian Talk List' 
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Anyone mind if I tidy the wiki a bit?



Hey Thorsten,

While I don’t intend to simply rearrange sections verbatim, I want  
 to focus on tidying, copy editing for spelling/grammar, and   
consolidating rather than making editorial decisions.


As Andrew suggested, I will reach out if there is something   
egregiously incorrect or contradictory, but I’m not intending to   
validate the entire wiki for correctness: I feel as though that   
would be beyond the remit of “tidying”.


More than happy to work with simultaneous updates and additions   
though—I don’t think it’s a task that can be done in one edit!


Dian

On 2022-02-22 18:54, osm.talk...@thorsten.engler.id.au   
  wrote:


If you do, please make sure to not just incorporate the recent   
undiscussed, subjective, if not outright wrong changes by Aaronsta.




From: Dian Ågesson mailto:m...@diacritic.xyz> >
Sent: Tuesday, 22 February 2022 17:00
To: OSM Australian Talk List  >

Subject: [talk-au] Anyone mind if I tidy the wiki a bit?



Hello,

The wiki contains loads of really good information, but it's a   
little bit hard to navigate: the Australian Tagging Guidelines page   
seems to contain the most current information but is getting very   
long. There are a lot of state-specific articles that don't seem to   
have been updated since 2009.


I'd like to do a bit of housekeeping: tidy up some of the sections,   
mark some of the pages as archived, etc, to try and make it more   
approachable for newbies and more maintainable. Nothing substantive   
would change, nothing would be deleted. Does anyone have any   
objections, thoughts or concerns with regard to this?




dian



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Re: [talk-au] Anyone mind if I tidy the wiki a bit?

[osm.talk-au]

Well, rearranging and editing, on top of the questionable edits that are 
currently on top of the stack of revisions, will cement these changes and make 
it harder to revert them.

 

Some of the changes have completely replaced what previously was listed as 
correct tagging practice with something totally different.

 

From: Dian Ågesson  
Sent: Wednesday, 23 February 2022 03:04
To: osm.talk...@thorsten.engler.id.au
Cc: 'OSM Australian Talk List' 
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Anyone mind if I tidy the wiki a bit?

 

Hey Thorsten,

While I don’t intend to simply rearrange sections verbatim, I want to focus on 
tidying, copy editing for spelling/grammar, and consolidating rather than 
making editorial decisions.

As Andrew suggested, I will reach out if there is something egregiously 
incorrect or contradictory, but I’m not intending to validate the entire wiki 
for correctness: I feel as though that would be beyond the remit of “tidying”. 

More than happy to work with simultaneous updates and additions though—I don’t 
think it’s a task that can be done in one edit!

Dian

On 2022-02-22 18:54, osm.talk...@thorsten.engler.id.au 
  wrote:

If you do, please make sure to not just incorporate the recent undiscussed, 
subjective, if not outright wrong changes by Aaronsta.

 

From: Dian Ågesson mailto:m...@diacritic.xyz> > 
Sent: Tuesday, 22 February 2022 17:00
To: OSM Australian Talk List mailto:talk-au@openstreetmap.org> >
Subject: [talk-au] Anyone mind if I tidy the wiki a bit?

 

Hello,

The wiki contains loads of really good information, but it's a little bit hard 
to navigate: the Australian Tagging Guidelines page seems to contain the most 
current information but is getting very long. There are a lot of state-specific 
articles that don't seem to have been updated since 2009.

I'd like to do a bit of housekeeping: tidy up some of the sections, mark some 
of the pages as archived, etc, to try and make it more approachable for newbies 
and more maintainable. Nothing substantive would change, nothing would be 
deleted. Does anyone have any objections, thoughts or concerns with regard to 
this?

 

dian

 

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Re: [talk-au] Anyone mind if I tidy the wiki a bit?

[Dian Ågesson]

Hey Thorsten,

While I don't intend to simply rearrange sections verbatim, I want to 
focus on tidying, copy editing for spelling/grammar, and consolidating 
rather than making editorial decisions.


As Andrew suggested, I will reach out if there is something egregiously 
incorrect or contradictory, but I'm not intending to validate the entire 
wiki for correctness: I feel as though that would be beyond the remit of 
"tidying".


More than happy to work with simultaneous updates and additions 
though--I don't think it's a task that can be done in one edit!


Dian

On 2022-02-22 18:54, osm.talk...@thorsten.engler.id.au wrote:

If you do, please make sure to not just incorporate the recent 
undiscussed, subjective, if not outright wrong changes by Aaronsta.


From: Dian Ågesson 
Sent: Tuesday, 22 February 2022 17:00
To: OSM Australian Talk List 
Subject: [talk-au] Anyone mind if I tidy the wiki a bit?

Hello,

The wiki contains loads of really good information, but it's a little 
bit hard to navigate: the Australian Tagging Guidelines page seems to 
contain the most current information but is getting very long. There 
are a lot of state-specific articles that don't seem to have been 
updated since 2009.


I'd like to do a bit of housekeeping: tidy up some of the sections, 
mark some of the pages as archived, etc, to try and make it more 
approachable for newbies and more maintainable. Nothing substantive 
would change, nothing would be deleted. Does anyone have any 
objections, thoughts or concerns with regard to this?


dian
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Re: [talk-au] Consistent addr:state format?

[tabjsina]

So all of Australia with the exception of Victoria is now fixed to use 
capitalized state abbreviations. As mentioned before, Victoria was the 
state that had a much closer (though still not entirely close) split 
between "Victoria" and "VIC", which leaves a whopping 32k addresses that 
need to be updated to "VIC".


While it is entirely possible (and easy) to do this via maproulette, 
I've removed the challenge as someone had pointed out to me that 32k 
individual changes might be a bit much as far as changesets go.


Are there any concerns with me doing this as a single batch change?

Thanks,
Justin


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Re: [talk-au] Lakes around Mungo National Park

[Warin]

On 22/2/22 18:55, Warin wrote:



On 22/2/22 09:20, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:




On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 at 17:30, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:


DCS Topo Legend
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/mholling/nswtopo-legends/master/nsw.png


Personally, I think the dry-lake proposal has a lot going for it - 
maybe we should just start using it? A comment on it's talk page also 
suggested natural=salt_pan, which isn't bad either.


I also notice on the Topo index that they show both wet & dry swamps 
- dry swamp may also be an option



Except the Topo map does not map as a wet land/ swamp...

To me a lake would have to have some depth of water in it, not just 
soggy soil .. so I against 'lake' if it never has a water surface now, 
even though they were lakes in the distant path.


Satellite imagery is not consistent across the 'lake' area .. would 
end up being a matrix of surface types.



"A playa is a dry, vegetation-free, flat area at the lowest part of an 
undrained desert basin. It is a location where ephemeral lakes form 
during wet periods, and is underlain by stratified clay, silt, and 
sand, and commonly, soluble salts."



So it is not a playa as defined above by the US Geo Science people...

A 'dry_lake' as defined on the osm wiki "An area of flat, dried-up 
land that is almost always dry, but rarely fills with water creating a 
very shallow lake."



Humm well it does not define 'rare' so I suppose it is as close as 
were are going to get.



As a square peg for a place of round holes  :P

natural/landform=dry_lake -3 uses of this in OSM .. so it will not 
render.


was:water=lake

name=Lake Mungo


As a matrix of surface types then a multipolugon with each surface 
type as a member ...





From http://www.visitmungo.com.au/plants

Looks like the 'lake beds' are mainly shrubs (bluebush and saltbush) 
with grasslands on the wetter areas..



Possible ignore grass  and a stretch of things to get


natural=shrub

landform=dry_lake

was:water=lake

name=Mungo Lake


and similar for the rest of these???

I'll have a look tomorrow at the various images to see if I can detect 
differences.


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Re: [talk-au] Anyone mind if I tidy the wiki a bit?

[osm.talk-au]

If you do, please make sure to not just incorporate the recent undiscussed, 
subjective, if not outright wrong changes by Aaronsta.

 

From: Dian Ågesson  
Sent: Tuesday, 22 February 2022 17:00
To: OSM Australian Talk List 
Subject: [talk-au] Anyone mind if I tidy the wiki a bit?

 

Hello,

The wiki contains loads of really good information, but it's a little bit hard 
to navigate: the Australian Tagging Guidelines page seems to contain the most 
current information but is getting very long. There are a lot of state-specific 
articles that don't seem to have been updated since 2009.

I'd like to do a bit of housekeeping: tidy up some of the sections, mark some 
of the pages as archived, etc, to try and make it more approachable for newbies 
and more maintainable. Nothing substantive would change, nothing would be 
deleted. Does anyone have any objections, thoughts or concerns with regard to 
this?

 

dian

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