Re: [talk-au] Track route names used to name paths
> On 16 May 2024, at 6:15 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote: > In the Blue Mountains some paths have more than one OSM way - each with > different 'name', at least some of these are routes that may, I repeat may, > not be the true path name. > Example > Way 1199677262 - 'Grand Clifftop Walk' > Way 22761613 - 'Overcliff Track' Note NPWS route 'Overcliff-Undercliff track' > .. the over cliff track is mapped separately in OSM. A route relation could > be made with both these tracks and a website link.. Just had a look at this one - YUK! The new 'Grand Clifftop Walk' way overlapping the existing way should go. New relation should be made for the route. There are some sections that would keep the name - the section from Golf Links Lookout to near Carleton Road was given that name back in the ?1990s? (I remember seeing the name in the mid 90s) - the track was meant to be extended further to Sublime Point but this never happened. Mark P. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Track route names used to name paths
Using the analogy of highways, the local name would take priority (e.g. name of fire trail), other otherwise-unnamed sections would take the route name. Doesn’t necessarily apply to tracks of course. When I surveyed the Great North Walk 4 years ago from Cowan to Epping Road https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/88292947 I applied the name to some of the paths. I recall there being wooden signs with the Great North Walk name present, so I took this to be the name of the path. Mark P. > On 16 May 2024, at 9:11 PM, cleary wrote: > A response to Tony's comment (but not necessarily relevant to the names of > tracks) > > The "higher" name is not necessarily the street name. > > In New South Wales, the local government is the naming authority for street > names. Roads and Maritime Services (RMS) is the authority for designating > highways but not the street names. For example, in the Sydney suburb of > Ashfield, the Hume Highway includes Liverpool Road but the official name of > the road is Liverpool Road and premises will have Liverpool Road as their > address. The RMS can designate the road as a highway and can signpost the > name/number of the highway but the local government posts the formal street > name. In the particular example I have given, the primary name is Liverpool > Road. This principle applies in all the similar instances of which I am > aware. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Track route names used to name paths
Sounds like you have 2 issues here? 1. someone has created a way (probably from a GPS recorded walk) with no regard for the fact that some (or all) of the ways were already in OSM, and 2. how those ways are named? Issue 1: I have come across this from time-to-time and it is a p-i-t-a fixing it up - but has to be done. This involves deleting the new way where a way already existed, creating new ones where they don't, then creating the route relation. Issue 2: Is also something I come across with the Munda Biddi Trail and Bibbulmun Track in WA. Original mappers of these ways and relations have in some cases named (for example) a forestry fire trail "Munda Biddi Trail" because the Munda Biddi uses the existing way. I don't believe this is correct and usually delete the name off the way. However, when a new piece of single-trail has been built just for the Munda Biddi, I believe it *is* correct to name that way Munda Biddi Trail. Ian > > HI, > > On some paths route signs have been used to 'name' the path. > > > One example is the 'Great North Walk', a Sydney to Newcastle walking route, > where many of the paths existed before the route was created. I think this is a > combination of mistaking the route signage as the track name and route > relations not rendering. > > > In the Blue Mountains some paths have more than one OSM way - each with > different 'name', at least some of these are routes that may, I repeat may, not > be the true path name. > > > Example > > Way 1199677262 - 'Grand Clifftop Walk' > > Way 22761613 - 'Overcliff Track' Note NPWS route 'Overcliff-Undercliff track' .. > the over cliff track is mapped separately in OSM. A route relation could be > made with both these tracks and a website link.. > > -- > > In the Blue Mts where there are overlayed ways and one of them is a route I > think it would be best to remove that way and include the remaining way in a > route relation .. I think most of this is the 'Great Cliff Top Walk' route and that > would then remove the double overlayed ways. . > > > Thoughts/comments ??? > > > ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Track route names used to name paths
Hi, This sounds similar to the Munda Biddi and Bibblimum 1000km trails (WA) and 900km Mawson Trail (SA), both of which use a collection of existing roads/paths/trails along with some purpose built link sections. Think about Donnelly River Village. South of the town the Munda Biddi is on Jeffries Road, North is on Willow Springs Road and it makes far more sense to have these local names rather than having it tagged as the Munda Biddi. The Munda Biddi and Bibblimum both use Jefferies track for a short section so we could have three tracks on top of each other. This occurs again and again with the local Waterous loop trail. The issues are we don't know which will render first or any other side effects and that if I select the top one to edit to change an attribute then the editor may not be aware of the other two underneath potentially. If we continue this line, then is there a problem with adding a separate road called Old Belgrave Road under Belgrave-Ferny Creek Rd and under Terrys Avenue, it gets unwieldy very quickly/. Ewen On Thu, 16 May 2024 at 20:29, wrote: > Hi Warin > > I would expect the highest order entity, the longest or biggest > entity, to be the primary name. For example the Hume Highway will > include a lot of High Streets, Station Streets or Main streets of > country towns. In my mind its first the Hume Highway and secondly High > Street wherever. I havent given it a lot of thought, its just how it > feels. > > Tony > > > HI, > > > > On some paths route signs have been used to 'name' the path. > > > > > > One example is the 'Great North Walk', a Sydney to Newcastle walking > > route, where many of the paths existed before the route was created. I > > think this is a combination of mistaking the route signage as the track > > name and route relations not rendering. > > > > > > In the Blue Mountains some paths have more than one OSM way - each with > > different 'name', at least some of these are routes that may, I repeat > > may, not be the true path name. > > > > > > Example > > > > Way 1199677262 - 'Grand Clifftop Walk' > > > > Way 22761613 - 'Overcliff Track' Note NPWS route 'Overcliff-Undercliff > > track' .. the over cliff track is mapped separately in OSM. A route > > relation could be made with both these tracks and a website link.. > > > > -- > > > > In the Blue Mts where there are overlayed ways and one of them is a > > route I think it would be best to remove that way and include the > > remaining way in a route relation .. I think most of this is the 'Great > > Cliff Top Walk' route and that would then remove the double overlayed > > ways. . > > > > > > Thoughts/comments ??? > > > > > > > > ___ > > Talk-au mailing list > > Talk-au@openstreetmap.org > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au > > > > _ > > This mail has been virus scanned by Australia On Line > > see http://www.australiaonline.net.au/mailscanning > > > > > > ___ > Talk-au mailing list > Talk-au@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au > -- Warm Regards Ewen Hill ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Track route names used to name paths
Agreed, if I understand you correctly. In the case of something like the Great North Walk, it can be a bit of a grey area as not only the main track, but many of the feeder tracks are labelled Great North Walk. If you didn't know the history of the tracks, you could easily assume it's all just the Great North Walk. Spatial Services often shows the Great North Walk in a different colour to the name of the individual track eg: https://maps.ozultimate.com/?lat=-33.621784672158356=151.12625598907474=15 cheers Tom Canyoning? try http://ozultimate.com/canyoning Bushwalking? try http://bushwalkingnsw.com On 16/05/2024 6:15 pm, Warin wrote: HI, On some paths route signs have been used to 'name' the path. One example is the 'Great North Walk', a Sydney to Newcastle walking route, where many of the paths existed before the route was created. I think this is a combination of mistaking the route signage as the track name and route relations not rendering. In the Blue Mountains some paths have more than one OSM way - each with different 'name', at least some of these are routes that may, I repeat may, not be the true path name. Example Way 1199677262 - 'Grand Clifftop Walk' Way 22761613 - 'Overcliff Track' Note NPWS route 'Overcliff-Undercliff track' .. the over cliff track is mapped separately in OSM. A route relation could be made with both these tracks and a website link.. -- In the Blue Mts where there are overlayed ways and one of them is a route I think it would be best to remove that way and include the remaining way in a route relation .. I think most of this is the 'Great Cliff Top Walk' route and that would then remove the double overlayed ways. . Thoughts/comments ??? ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Track route names used to name paths
A response to Tony's comment (but not necessarily relevant to the names of tracks) The "higher" name is not necessarily the street name. In New South Wales, the local government is the naming authority for street names. Roads and Maritime Services (RMS) is the authority for designating highways but not the street names. For example, in the Sydney suburb of Ashfield, the Hume Highway includes Liverpool Road but the official name of the road is Liverpool Road and premises will have Liverpool Road as their address. The RMS can designate the road as a highway and can signpost the name/number of the highway but the local government posts the formal street name. In the particular example I have given, the primary name is Liverpool Road. This principle applies in all the similar instances of which I am aware. On Thu, 16 May 2024, at 8:23 PM, fors...@ozonline.com.au wrote: > Hi Warin > > I would expect the highest order entity, the longest or biggest > entity, to be the primary name. For example the Hume Highway will > include a lot of High Streets, Station Streets or Main streets of > country towns. In my mind its first the Hume Highway and secondly High > Street wherever. I havent given it a lot of thought, its just how it > feels. > > Tony > >> HI, >> >> On some paths route signs have been used to 'name' the path. >> >> >> One example is the 'Great North Walk', a Sydney to Newcastle walking >> route, where many of the paths existed before the route was created. I >> think this is a combination of mistaking the route signage as the track >> name and route relations not rendering. >> >> >> In the Blue Mountains some paths have more than one OSM way - each with >> different 'name', at least some of these are routes that may, I repeat >> may, not be the true path name. >> >> >> Example >> >> Way 1199677262 - 'Grand Clifftop Walk' >> >> Way 22761613 - 'Overcliff Track' Note NPWS route 'Overcliff-Undercliff >> track' .. the over cliff track is mapped separately in OSM. A route >> relation could be made with both these tracks and a website link.. >> >> -- >> >> In the Blue Mts where there are overlayed ways and one of them is a >> route I think it would be best to remove that way and include the >> remaining way in a route relation .. I think most of this is the 'Great >> Cliff Top Walk' route and that would then remove the double overlayed >> ways. . >> >> >> Thoughts/comments ??? >> >> >> >> ___ >> Talk-au mailing list >> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au >> >> _ >> This mail has been virus scanned by Australia On Line >> see http://www.australiaonline.net.au/mailscanning > > > > > > ___ > Talk-au mailing list > Talk-au@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Track route names used to name paths
Hi, I'm specifically talking of hiking paths. Highways I think are already mapped correctly ... digging one out now .. The Great Western Highway exists as a route of 682 members Most of the members carry the same name as the route. But some carry other names Such as; Way: Stewart Street (176174126) "alt_name"="Great Western Highway" Way: Durham Street (228061611) "alt_name"="Great Western Highway" Way: Sydney Road (375627444) "alt_name"="Great Western Highway" The DCS Base Map agrees in that 'Great Western Highway' does not appear in these sections but the name now appearing in OSM is used. I checked Coles Express Bathurst - their address is given as Durham Street not Great Western Highway ... so Durhams Street is used in preference to Great Western Highway here. On 16/5/24 20:23, fors...@ozonline.com.au wrote: Hi Warin I would expect the highest order entity, the longest or biggest entity, to be the primary name. For example the Hume Highway will include a lot of High Streets, Station Streets or Main streets of country towns. In my mind its first the Hume Highway and secondly High Street wherever. I havent given it a lot of thought, its just how it feels. Tony HI, On some paths route signs have been used to 'name' the path. One example is the 'Great North Walk', a Sydney to Newcastle walking route, where many of the paths existed before the route was created. I think this is a combination of mistaking the route signage as the track name and route relations not rendering. In the Blue Mountains some paths have more than one OSM way - each with different 'name', at least some of these are routes that may, I repeat may, not be the true path name. Example Way 1199677262 - 'Grand Clifftop Walk' Way 22761613 - 'Overcliff Track' Note NPWS route 'Overcliff-Undercliff track' .. the over cliff track is mapped separately in OSM. A route relation could be made with both these tracks and a website link.. -- In the Blue Mts where there are overlayed ways and one of them is a route I think it would be best to remove that way and include the remaining way in a route relation .. I think most of this is the 'Great Cliff Top Walk' route and that would then remove the double overlayed ways. . Thoughts/comments ??? ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au _ This mail has been virus scanned by Australia On Line see http://www.australiaonline.net.au/mailscanning ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Track route names used to name paths
Hi Warin I would expect the highest order entity, the longest or biggest entity, to be the primary name. For example the Hume Highway will include a lot of High Streets, Station Streets or Main streets of country towns. In my mind its first the Hume Highway and secondly High Street wherever. I havent given it a lot of thought, its just how it feels. Tony HI, On some paths route signs have been used to 'name' the path. One example is the 'Great North Walk', a Sydney to Newcastle walking route, where many of the paths existed before the route was created. I think this is a combination of mistaking the route signage as the track name and route relations not rendering. In the Blue Mountains some paths have more than one OSM way - each with different 'name', at least some of these are routes that may, I repeat may, not be the true path name. Example Way 1199677262 - 'Grand Clifftop Walk' Way 22761613 - 'Overcliff Track' Note NPWS route 'Overcliff-Undercliff track' .. the over cliff track is mapped separately in OSM. A route relation could be made with both these tracks and a website link.. -- In the Blue Mts where there are overlayed ways and one of them is a route I think it would be best to remove that way and include the remaining way in a route relation .. I think most of this is the 'Great Cliff Top Walk' route and that would then remove the double overlayed ways. . Thoughts/comments ??? ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au _ This mail has been virus scanned by Australia On Line see http://www.australiaonline.net.au/mailscanning ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Track route names used to name paths
HI, On some paths route signs have been used to 'name' the path. One example is the 'Great North Walk', a Sydney to Newcastle walking route, where many of the paths existed before the route was created. I think this is a combination of mistaking the route signage as the track name and route relations not rendering. In the Blue Mountains some paths have more than one OSM way - each with different 'name', at least some of these are routes that may, I repeat may, not be the true path name. Example Way 1199677262 - 'Grand Clifftop Walk' Way 22761613 - 'Overcliff Track' Note NPWS route 'Overcliff-Undercliff track' .. the over cliff track is mapped separately in OSM. A route relation could be made with both these tracks and a website link.. -- In the Blue Mts where there are overlayed ways and one of them is a route I think it would be best to remove that way and include the remaining way in a route relation .. I think most of this is the 'Great Cliff Top Walk' route and that would then remove the double overlayed ways. . Thoughts/comments ??? ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
