Re: [talk-au] Boundary removal
Thanks for doing that. - Ben. -- Ben Kelley ben.kel...@gmail.com On Feb 9, 2012 9:13 PM, "Nick Hocking" wrote: > The version1 level 10 ABS boundaries have now been removed. > > Now when you see a red way you know that it does indeed need > work on it. > > If you use a mapnik rendering (whether Bing maps or > openstretmap.org) the remaining level 10 boundaries show up > well in purple. > > These will almost always be of two types > > a) someone has realigned the boundary based on local knowledge. > > or > > b) Someone has mixed an administrative boundary and a > highway, railway waterway aeroway etc. in the same way. > > In the a) case the editors will need to save away these > mods until boundaries are reapplied and then remake the changes, > although it would be great if we can apply all state boundary changes > to the old boundaries, before the licence change. > > In the b) cases each road/river etc needs to be investigated to > see if it can be remapped from clean sources. > > There is a lot of work to do but each highway reclaimed will result > in a marked reduction in loss of routability at changeover time. > > P.S. I've caused a bit of damage to our coastline which will be > fixed soon(ish). > > ___ > Talk-au mailing list > Talk-au@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au > > ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Boundary removal
Or they are perfectly good boundaries, not derived or reusing ABS_2006 points at all. These ones can (obviously) just be left alone. Ian. On 9 February 2012 21:12, Nick Hocking wrote: > These will almost always be of two types > > a) someone has realigned the boundary based on local knowledge. > > or > > b) Someone has mixed an administrative boundary and a > highway, railway waterway aeroway etc. in the same way. > > ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Boundary removal
The version1 level 10 ABS boundaries have now been removed. Now when you see a red way you know that it does indeed need work on it. If you use a mapnik rendering (whether Bing maps or openstretmap.org) the remaining level 10 boundaries show up well in purple. These will almost always be of two types a) someone has realigned the boundary based on local knowledge. or b) Someone has mixed an administrative boundary and a highway, railway waterway aeroway etc. in the same way. In the a) case the editors will need to save away these mods until boundaries are reapplied and then remake the changes, although it would be great if we can apply all state boundary changes to the old boundaries, before the licence change. In the b) cases each road/river etc needs to be investigated to see if it can be remapped from clean sources. There is a lot of work to do but each highway reclaimed will result in a marked reduction in loss of routability at changeover time. P.S. I've caused a bit of damage to our coastline which will be fixed soon(ish). ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Boundary removal.
On 2/02/2012 9:41 PM, Nick Hocking wrote: Does anyone know if there are old (August 2008) Australian OSM extracts available otherwise I'll start the planet download (only 5 gig !!!) I might have them - I've got nearly nightly Australia & NZ dumps tucked away somewhere - whether they go back as far a August 2008 though, I'm not sure. I've nuked them at various stages I think, but I may not have nuked all of them. Definitely got the last 14 months or so, but 2008 might be stretching it. A quick sticky shows I've got at least an April 2009 dump. I'll check on my system at work on Monday. My previous workstations power supply died, but if the disk is still good, it might have dumps going back that far. Matt ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Boundary removal.
Mark wrote "I don't have an OSM extracts, but there might be another way: undeleting the old ways." Thanks Mark, There is one more consideration which applies to state boundaries and coastlines. Some CT-agreers have put in a lot of hard work actually surveying and improving these borders after the ABS import. I *really* don't want them to lose this work and therefore, we need to save these mods away somehow to reapply after we restore the pre-abs borders. I don't believe it matters whose name appears on the edits or ways but the work done must be preserved. This will not be a trivial task but if someone can think of a relatively painless way of achieving this, then, speak up Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Boundary removal.
On 02/02/2012, at 9:41 PM, Nick Hocking wrote: > Does anyone know if there are old (August 2008) Australian > OSM extracts available otherwise I'll start the planet download > (only 5 gig !!!) I don't have an OSM extracts, but there might be another way: undeleting the old ways. At http://osm.mapki.com/history/relation.php?id=80370 is a list of all the ways for the South Australian border (replace the relation number for the other borders) including all the previously deleted borders. All(?!) you need to do is find at what date the borders were changed to the import borders, then undelete the ways that were deleted at this time. Mark P. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Boundary removal.
Mark wrote "Mark wrote "I haven't looked at all the state borders yet, but some of them at least are based on ABS data - prior to the ABS import, was there other data for state borders that can be undeleted, or will we need to add these in again?" Yes - it's still a very good question. Once I've calmed down a bit, I will download an old planet file and start to investigate recovering our pre ABS boarders. At first (and second glance) it appears that the mad importers have just blown away all the state borders before dumping their free data on the map. All the hard work I did to get the Black Allan line exact at a proper geometry (NOT a straight line) has been quietly removed. This state border is now badly wrong (as bad as google's version also is. The importers did not even consider whether other people had edited that area before just blowing it away. Ok - I'm calm now (despite appearences). Does anyone know if there are old (August 2008) Australian OSM extracts available otherwise I'll start the planet download (only 5 gig !!!) ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Boundary removal.
+1 Nick, you've obviously put a lot of thought into this and I trust your judgement. I think removing the boundaries sooner rather than later will make the remapping effort easier, and spreading the pain across a few blows now is better than waiting for a knockout hit on April 1st. Cheers, Ben On 02/02/2012, at 11:49, Ian Sergeant wrote: > Okay, It sounds like your way further down this line of > thought/implementation than me. > > I'm happy to drop any objection, and keep my fingers crossed for a good > result. > > Looking forward to any data you can produce from your analysis. > > Thanks, > Ian. > > On 2 February 2012 10:46, Nick Hocking wrote: > Ian wrote > > "Do you want me to try this on a small area (like Canberra :-) to see if it > gives the desired results?" > > Yes - you could try but I've beaten you to it. A couple of weeks ago I > spent a lot of time and an awfull lot of downloading in JOSM to > find and destroy all the V1 boundaries. I think there is now only > the state boundary left (level 4) and I'm sure I busted that one as well > by mistake. > > It was tedious work and very easy to destroy good roads that are > very close to the boundaries. > > Having done this I could then start remapping (well after removing > some obscuring power lines and footpaths that I will have to > remap later). > > Out in the rural areas it can take up to 10 minutes just to download > and destroy a single long boundary. There are about 15,000 that > need removal. > > I do think that if people see a lot of red disappear and then know > that anything that is left that is red is worth working on, then maybe > remapping will start in earnest. > > Also mass deletion of v1 (virgin) boundaries will have the benefit > that if you see a boundary then you will know that it either is > containing some good info that may be reclaimable, or that some good > stuff is hiding underneath and may be salvagable. > > I will also endeavour to find a way to visualise or at least easily > locate those non v1 boundaries that have a road/river/railroad > or runway mixed in or have been glued to them so that we can easily > see if we can recover any clean information and maybe > completely remap with BIng landsat etc. > > I need to remove all v1 boundaries between here and Adelaide > and all of south eastern NSW. I'm not adept at bulk adds/deletes etc > and would really like the DWG to do it and get it right. Also this would > reduce load on the servers which I am giving a fair hammering, > looking at history etc > > Nick > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ___ > Talk-au mailing list > Talk-au@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au > > > ___ > Talk-au mailing list > Talk-au@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Boundary removal.
On 2 February 2012 11:22, Nick Hocking wrote: > I suggest we get back our old state natrional boundaries > from before ABS and then improve them over the next year > or so, at our leisure. > > There is nothing stopping us using the 2011 ABS boundaries, from the areas where we are missing this information. Ian. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Boundary removal.
Okay, It sounds like your way further down this line of thought/implementation than me. I'm happy to drop any objection, and keep my fingers crossed for a good result. Looking forward to any data you can produce from your analysis. Thanks, Ian. On 2 February 2012 10:46, Nick Hocking wrote: > Ian wrote > > "Do you want me to try this on a small area (like Canberra :-) to see if it > gives the desired results?" > > Yes - you could try but I've beaten you to it. A couple of weeks ago I > spent a lot of time and an awfull lot of downloading in JOSM to > find and destroy all the V1 boundaries. I think there is now only > the state boundary left (level 4) and I'm sure I busted that one as well > by mistake. > > It was tedious work and very easy to destroy good roads that are > very close to the boundaries. > > Having done this I could then start remapping (well after removing > some obscuring power lines and footpaths that I will have to > remap later). > > Out in the rural areas it can take up to 10 minutes just to download > and destroy a single long boundary. There are about 15,000 that > need removal. > > I do think that if people see a lot of red disappear and then know > that anything that is left that is red is worth working on, then maybe > remapping will start in earnest. > > Also mass deletion of v1 (virgin) boundaries will have the benefit > that if you see a boundary then you will know that it either is > containing some good info that may be reclaimable, or that some good > stuff is hiding underneath and may be salvagable. > > I will also endeavour to find a way to visualise or at least easily > locate those non v1 boundaries that have a road/river/railroad > or runway mixed in or have been glued to them so that we can easily > see if we can recover any clean information and maybe > completely remap with BIng landsat etc. > > I need to remove all v1 boundaries between here and Adelaide > and all of south eastern NSW. I'm not adept at bulk adds/deletes etc > and would really like the DWG to do it and get it right. Also this would > reduce load on the servers which I am giving a fair hammering, > looking at history etc > > Nick > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ___ > Talk-au mailing list > Talk-au@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au > > ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Boundary removal.
Mark wrote "I haven't looked at all the state borders yet, but some of them at least are based on ABS data - prior to the ABS import, was there other data for state borders that can be undeleted, or will we need to add these in again?" That's a very good question. The coastline in particular has caused some interesting discussions on this list for years. I'm sure there were all state borders and coastline before ABS but that the ABS data was usually better (but not always). I've had importers and tweakers cause some of the roads I've mapped to move into the ocean maybe three times (for the same road) but that's no problem, I've just tweaked the coastline back into proper position. Since the ABS import has deleted the previous data there is no way for us to get it back unless we can find some old planet files. I believe that the DWG would (be able to help us here). I'd like to get the ACT border sorted out pronto. Actually I spent a lot of time (and petrol) mapping the Black Allen line (NSW VIC straight border). I must check that the ABS import didn't mess that up. There is even a bridge (near Delegate) that VIC (i think) had to give back to NSW even though they had maintained it for decades because it was surveyed into the wrong state. I very carefully mapped this bridge's position. I tried remapping some coastline down near Eden, from Bing imagery. This works well buit is very time comsuming and the coastline is BIG and probably Bing imagery does not cover it all at the necessary resolution. I suggest we get back our old state natrional boundaries from before ABS and then improve them over the next year or so, at our leisure. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Boundary removal.
Ian wrote "Do you want me to try this on a small area (like Canberra :-) to see if it gives the desired results?" Yes - you could try but I've beaten you to it. A couple of weeks ago I spent a lot of time and an awfull lot of downloading in JOSM to find and destroy all the V1 boundaries. I think there is now only the state boundary left (level 4) and I'm sure I busted that one as well by mistake. It was tedious work and very easy to destroy good roads that are very close to the boundaries. Having done this I could then start remapping (well after removing some obscuring power lines and footpaths that I will have to remap later). Out in the rural areas it can take up to 10 minutes just to download and destroy a single long boundary. There are about 15,000 that need removal. I do think that if people see a lot of red disappear and then know that anything that is left that is red is worth working on, then maybe remapping will start in earnest. Also mass deletion of v1 (virgin) boundaries will have the benefit that if you see a boundary then you will know that it either is containing some good info that may be reclaimable, or that some good stuff is hiding underneath and may be salvagable. I will also endeavour to find a way to visualise or at least easily locate those non v1 boundaries that have a road/river/railroad or runway mixed in or have been glued to them so that we can easily see if we can recover any clean information and maybe completely remap with BIng landsat etc. I need to remove all v1 boundaries between here and Adelaide and all of south eastern NSW. I'm not adept at bulk adds/deletes etc and would really like the DWG to do it and get it right. Also this would reduce load on the servers which I am giving a fair hammering, looking at history etc Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Boundary removal.
Quoting Ian Sergeant : I think doing a JOSM search for user:ABS2006 does everything we want here. Because JOSM is only aware of the most recent user, this selects all V1 ABS2006 imported objects only. Relations, nodes and ways. These can then be deleted with a single click. If the relations, ways, and nodes are all unmodified this will delete them all. If anything has been modified, it leaves it. If you are doing it over a small area, it is possible to check any unselected boundary relations as well, to check if the modifications are significant, and manually tidy up around the edges. Do you want me to try this on a small area (like Canberra :-) to see if it gives the desired results? Canberra has already been done using this method - I've currently got JOSM set to only show boundaries, all apart from author=ABS2006 greyed out, and certain other ways greyed out (highways, railways, coastlines, state/country borders). I've also been deleting relations once there are no longer any ways in them. I haven't looked at all the state borders yet, but some of them at least are based on ABS data - prior to the ABS import, was there other data for state borders that can be undeleted, or will we need to add these in again? Mark P. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Boundary removal.
I think doing a JOSM search for user:ABS2006 does everything we want here. Because JOSM is only aware of the most recent user, this selects all V1 ABS2006 imported objects only. Relations, nodes and ways. These can then be deleted with a single click. If the relations, ways, and nodes are all unmodified this will delete them all. If anything has been modified, it leaves it. If you are doing it over a small area, it is possible to check any unselected boundary relations as well, to check if the modifications are significant, and manually tidy up around the edges. Do you want me to try this on a small area (like Canberra :-) to see if it gives the desired results? Ian. On 2 February 2012 00:03, Ian Sergeant wrote: > I'll scream about tomorrow lunchtime. > > Can you explain why the DWG need to be involved here? > > I'm not sure I see the benefits of a bulk remove prior to everything > else. I have had no difficulties in removing the ABS boundaries when they > get it my way. > > Ian. > On Feb 1, 2012 11:50 PM, "Nick Hocking" wrote: > >> Mark wrote >> >> "I think leave in the broken ones for now." >> >> The only problem some may have is that once a relation >> is empty you won't be able to locate it again although it >> will disappear on April 1st. >> >> Still if people have added roads into the boundary relation >> then the road won't be deleted and therefore the relation >> will not be empty. >> >> So yes I agree lets just get the version 1 ABS boundaries >> deleted and let the relations look after themselves. >> >> Tomorrow lunchtime I will ask DWG to do the deletes, >> unless there are lots of screams here. >> >> If there are lots of screams here next week then we could, >> of course get the deletes reverted. >> >> And yes, I will produce a list of 1500 boundary roads >> and 1500boundary waterways which are at risk. >> (this weekend I promise). >> >> Nick >> >> ___ >> Talk-au mailing list >> Talk-au@openstreetmap.org >> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au >> >> ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Boundary removal.
I'll scream about tomorrow lunchtime. Can you explain why the DWG need to be involved here? I'm not sure I see the benefits of a bulk remove prior to everything else. I have had no difficulties in removing the ABS boundaries when they get it my way. Ian. On Feb 1, 2012 11:50 PM, "Nick Hocking" wrote: > Mark wrote > > "I think leave in the broken ones for now." > > The only problem some may have is that once a relation > is empty you won't be able to locate it again although it > will disappear on April 1st. > > Still if people have added roads into the boundary relation > then the road won't be deleted and therefore the relation > will not be empty. > > So yes I agree lets just get the version 1 ABS boundaries > deleted and let the relations look after themselves. > > Tomorrow lunchtime I will ask DWG to do the deletes, > unless there are lots of screams here. > > If there are lots of screams here next week then we could, > of course get the deletes reverted. > > And yes, I will produce a list of 1500 boundary roads > and 1500boundary waterways which are at risk. > (this weekend I promise). > > Nick > > ___ > Talk-au mailing list > Talk-au@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au > > ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Boundary removal.
Mark wrote "I think leave in the broken ones for now." The only problem some may have is that once a relation is empty you won't be able to locate it again although it will disappear on April 1st. Still if people have added roads into the boundary relation then the road won't be deleted and therefore the relation will not be empty. So yes I agree lets just get the version 1 ABS boundaries deleted and let the relations look after themselves. Tomorrow lunchtime I will ask DWG to do the deletes, unless there are lots of screams here. If there are lots of screams here next week then we could, of course get the deletes reverted. And yes, I will produce a list of 1500 boundary roads and 1500boundary waterways which are at risk. (this weekend I promise). Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Boundary removal.
On 01/02/2012, at 9:09 PM, Nick Hocking wrote: > So, should we clear out the doomed relations now or leave the > broken ones for the DWG to remove for us in April? I think leave in the broken ones for now. I've started work on removing the version 1 ways, but if someone with a faster internet connection can remove these en masse then feel free to go ahead! The next task I had in mind was to go through the remaining ones, trying to save what I can (e.g. imagery for waterways/roads, or removing boundaries while leaving new nodes intact (e.g. road crosses boundary, someone adds a ford to the way)). Mark P. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Boundary removal.
As discussed previously there are compelling reasons to remove the doomed ABS boundaries in advance of the licence changeover. I intend to get the following removed user="ABS2006" and version="1" and admin_level="10" and boundary="administrative" This will leave most of the boundary relations empty or badly broken. These relations will be removed anyway in April but some people have edited them and may want to have that information kept for a little while. So, should we clear out the doomed relations now or leave the broken ones for the DWG to remove for us in April? Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
