Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...
On 25/06/2009, at 8:38 PM, Elizabeth Dodd wrote: > Yes, and I've tried to be a bit obscure about my location, but if > you know my > name, everyone in town knows which is my house. > One person well known to me put his marker in the local cemetery. Yeah, small country towns are a whole different matter. If you have a crazy stalker, I don't think they really need to extrapolate GPX traces uploaded to OSM to figure out where you live. There's a fair chance it'd be someone who knows where you live anyway :) -- James ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...
On Thu, 25 Jun 2009, John Smith wrote: > You only care about what town or suburb some is in, the discussion was on a > little more accurate, down to the street or even the house they live or > place of work. > > There can be all sort of reasons people don't care if you know the > town/suburb, but on the other hand there is all sorts of reasons people are > wary about letting others know more accurately these locations. Yes, and I've tried to be a bit obscure about my location, but if you know my name, everyone in town knows which is my house. One person well known to me put his marker in the local cemetery. -- BOFH excuse #35: working as designed ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...
--- On Thu, 25/6/09, Liz wrote: > But if I think I'm encroaching on a local's territory I'll > try to contact them > to discuss things. > So I do look to see who lives where > :-) You only care about what town or suburb some is in, the discussion was on a little more accurate, down to the street or even the house they live or place of work. There can be all sort of reasons people don't care if you know the town/suburb, but on the other hand there is all sorts of reasons people are wary about letting others know more accurately these locations. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...
On Thu, 25 Jun 2009, James Livingston wrote: > While I'd prefer that you can't tell exactly where I live, I reckon it > would be pretty difficult to stop someone from finding out which > suburb I live in. I have deliberately looked to see from where editors come so when i find that someone who did something in cairns seems to live on the Isle of Wight I'm not concerned about editing it. They came, they saw, they mapped, and I'll edit where it seems to be changed. But if I think I'm encroaching on a local's territory I'll try to contact them to discuss things. So I do look to see who lives where :-) ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...
Resent, because I accidently only sent it to David On 21/06/2009, at 4:56 PM, David Dean wrote: > Of course, if the number of kilometres is always the same you could > easily > work out where the location is anyway by looking at the blank hole > in all > their traces, helpfully centred on their house. It's a matter of who you're trying to stop from finding out where you live, and how close you're willing to have then get from OSM. Are we trying to stop someone who doesn't really care from noticing exactly where you live, or are you trying to stop someone hell-bent on knowing where you live from even knowing which suburb you are in? If it's just to stop people casually seeing where you live, then cutting out a polygon will probably be enough. For the second case, not uploading GPS tracks may not be enough. I would guess that there are plenty of clues as to where you live just in your edit locations and patterns - like someone's early edits are probably going to be streets near where they live. While I'd prefer that you can't tell exactly where I live, I reckon it would be pretty difficult to stop someone from finding out which suburb I live in. -- James ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...
--- On Sun, 21/6/09, David Dean wrote: > Also, does everyone here realise that private traces still > show up for > everyone in JOSM/Potlatch/etc. (without any timestamp or > user information)? I wasn't aware of this. I also just went to check but there is no mention on either the upload page or the wiki page for help the upload page links to about what the public/private option means or the ramifications. I didn't dig any further, but this seems like a pretty bad way to handle possibly sensitive data from users. I was under the assumption that it meant only you would be able to see the traces in any editors that downloaded/shows the GPS trace. I originally had uploaded GPX files to then use them in potlatch but have since removed them for privacy reasons until I can sort out a batch processor for them. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...
Darrin Smith wrote: > > If one was really trying to hunt someone down with OSM, a carefull > study of their edit history would most likely reveal information about > their location anyway. > Yes, but long term I can see people using openstreetmap data just for navigation, and having their traces would be very useful for traffic modelling purposes to improve the routing algorithms. In this case the only real information OSM has on these people are their traces, so we would need some sort of protection in place if they are worried about this sort of thing. One solution might be to always drop the last and first N minutes, kilometres, turns, etc. from every journey, where N is a random number chosen uniformly from a fairly wide range (between 5 and 10 minutes). This would ensure that most of the travelling information is kept, but no information about start points and destinations are. These end points would be less likely to be useful for road-speed modelling anyway. Also, does everyone here realise that private traces still show up for everyone in JOSM/Potlatch/etc. (without any timestamp or user information)? It just means that the files are not visible in your traces area on the website. Ie. the gps points themselves are still publically accessible through the API, you just can't tell who made them or at what time they were made. - David -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Hi-all-...-tp24072661p24134109.html Sent from the OpenStreetMap - Australian Talk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...
--- On Sun, 21/6/09, Andy Owen wrote: > I previously had all my traces private. Then, I realised > that if someone > wanted to track me down, they could just look me up in the > phone book... > or ask me. You should check out Telstra's profit sheets some time on silent numbers, there is a lot of people paying a lot of money to keep themselves out of the phone book. Although with the increasing adoption of mobile phones and dropping rates of land lines, or people going to naked DSL, I guess they aren't earning as much any more. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...
--- On Sun, 21/6/09, Darrin Smith wrote: > If one was really trying to hunt someone down with OSM, a > carefull > study of their edit history would most likely reveal > information about > their location anyway. Yet another reason to become a grey nomad? (even if you aren't grey yet!) :) ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...
> If one was really trying to hunt someone down with OSM, a carefull > study of their edit history would most likely reveal information about > their location anyway. > I previously had all my traces private. Then, I realised that if someone wanted to track me down, they could just look me up in the phone book... or ask me. (actually, I had them private because I thought they were rubbish, but it turned out to be a bug in the thing I was viewing them in, and it added an extra point at the start, at a random location) Andy ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...
On Sat, 20 Jun 2009 23:56:56 -0700 (PDT) David Dean wrote: > > Of course, if the number of kilometres is always the same you could > easily work out where the location is anyway by looking at the blank > hole in all their traces, helpfully centred on their house. If one was really trying to hunt someone down with OSM, a carefull study of their edit history would most likely reveal information about their location anyway. -- =b ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...
--- On Sun, 21/6/09, David Dean wrote: > Of course, if the number of kilometres is always the same > you could easily > work out where the location is anyway by looking at the > blank hole in all > their traces, helpfully centred on their house. Sure, it's a cat and mouse game which I've been going over in my head to try and work out a solution to. One possible solution is to randomly upload them via the account I created which I use to accept auto uploaded GPX files from hundreds of other people. The downside with this solution is that most people submitting traces this way aren't in Australia so that probably won't help much for the GPX files I've created in Australia. So to solve this problem I just need to make similar apps for other handsets that people would use in Australia. It's all about how much time and effort you can and are willing to commit to such problems. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...
Of course, if the number of kilometres is always the same you could easily work out where the location is anyway by looking at the blank hole in all their traces, helpfully centred on their house. John Smith-129 wrote: > > It'd be nicer to just have any points within so many km radius of any > chosen locations to be excluded from gpx files before they get uploaded, > and I don't know about you but I have way way too many GPX files to filter > through before I want to upload them in case I forget to start or stop > recording, which seems to happen frequently since I'm usually thinking > about other things more important, like not having an accident. :) > -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Hi-all-...-tp24072661p24132036.html Sent from the OpenStreetMap - Australian Talk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...
--- On Sat, 20/6/09, Liz wrote: > I try (now) to start mine after leaving home so it would > actually get a fix > about 2km down the road, and try to remember to stop it > before getting home. > a check of the gpx downloads in my area showed me where my > friends lived. It'd be nicer to just have any points within so many km radius of any chosen locations to be excluded from gpx files before they get uploaded, and I don't know about you but I have way way too many GPX files to filter through before I want to upload them in case I forget to start or stop recording, which seems to happen frequently since I'm usually thinking about other things more important, like not having an accident. :) ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...
On Sat, 20 Jun 2009, Ross Scanlon wrote: > I can see there are reasons for uploading gpx traces but in the meantime > I'll still hold mine, as they tend to show where I work and live. I know I > could filter that out but it takes time and I've got to find all stops I > make at customers premises/residences. I try (now) to start mine after leaving home so it would actually get a fix about 2km down the road, and try to remember to stop it before getting home. a check of the gpx downloads in my area showed me where my friends lived. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...
--- On Sat, 20/6/09, Ross Scanlon wrote: > I know, but it's figuring out all the polygons that take > the time. Don't know why I didn't think of it before, but I should have just emailed Xoff to see if he could better comment... ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...
On Sat, 20 Jun 2009 06:06:56 -0700 (PDT) John Smith wrote: > > > > --- On Sat, 20/6/09, John Smith wrote: > > No one replied to my thread on gpsbabel, it can apparently > > exclude areas, and at the same time anonymise the time > > stamps and probably a whole lot more, but I couldn't figure > > out the polygon thing to make it exclude it. > > I meant to say in batches/bulk, so you just run a shell script/batch file and > it processes an entire folders worth of gpx files in one hit. I've got some perl and shell scripts that do this for other things but not for gpsbabel. -- Cheers Ross ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...
--- On Sat, 20/6/09, John Smith wrote: > No one replied to my thread on gpsbabel, it can apparently > exclude areas, and at the same time anonymise the time > stamps and probably a whole lot more, but I couldn't figure > out the polygon thing to make it exclude it. I meant to say in batches/bulk, so you just run a shell script/batch file and it processes an entire folders worth of gpx files in one hit. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...
--- On Sat, 20/6/09, Ross Scanlon wrote: > I can see there are reasons for uploading gpx traces but in > the meantime I'll still hold mine, as they tend to show > where I work and live. I know I could filter that out > but it takes time and I've got to find all stops I make at > customers premises/residences. No one replied to my thread on gpsbabel, it can apparently exclude areas, and at the same time anonymise the time stamps and probably a whole lot more, but I couldn't figure out the polygon thing to make it exclude it. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...
On Sat, 20 Jun 2009 21:09:50 +1000 Sam Couter wrote: > > Averaging the traces will not necessarily make the map more accurate. If > > there are two that correspond closely and one that's 20m off then the > > resultant way will be incorrect. > > I think you've shown yourself to be smart enough that you know this is a > strawman. > > The term "average" usually means the mean, which would cause the result > you describe. I don't think you fooled anyone into believing that would > happen, or even that you think that would happen. When using GPX traces > it makes most sense to use the mode or something approximating it, or an > intuitive weighted average. Any of these methods would discard the > outlier and result in more accurate maps on average (there's that word > again, meaning something different again). I was wondering how long it would take someone to pick up on this. Yes people tend to use average when in fact they should be using mean or mode. In this case the "average"/mean/mode would negate any significantly inaccurate trace. And a human looking at it would pick it up in about 0.001 second. I can see there are reasons for uploading gpx traces but in the meantime I'll still hold mine, as they tend to show where I work and live. I know I could filter that out but it takes time and I've got to find all stops I make at customers premises/residences. I think we'll leave it at that and leave each to their own. Cheers Ross ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...
Ross Scanlon wrote: > As I said if you have a really good reason to change a source=survey then > do so but don't change it just because it's your trace and you think yours > is the only correct one. Leave it alone if your not sure. If I can only see one trace (mine) because you didn't upload yours, all available evidence points to my trace being the most accurate source of information. If ten people did the same thing you can expect the way to shift around ten times. If ten people instead upload their traces, the way won't shift very far unless the first trace was very different to the rest. > Averaging the traces will not necessarily make the map more accurate. If > there are two that correspond closely and one that's 20m off then the > resultant way will be incorrect. I think you've shown yourself to be smart enough that you know this is a strawman. The term "average" usually means the mean, which would cause the result you describe. I don't think you fooled anyone into believing that would happen, or even that you think that would happen. When using GPX traces it makes most sense to use the mode or something approximating it, or an intuitive weighted average. Any of these methods would discard the outlier and result in more accurate maps on average (there's that word again, meaning something different again). You don't have to upload GPX tracks, or geotagged photos, or your running commentary audio notes, or anything for that matter. But if you don't then you're being less useful than you would otherwise be. You're not being paid, so you're under no obiligation. You asked "Why should I?" and a lot of good reasons have been given. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...
On Thu, 18 Jun 2009, John Smith wrote: > > Merkaator is the program the writer was trying to recall. > > And I thought re-using acronyms were bad. > > > No proof for this... Mercator is the Latin version of the bloke's name. Common for academics then to Latinise their names. He was Flemish. (true) Merkaator a Flemish (original) version of the name?? Merkator appears in Serbian as a name. -- Q: How do you shoot a blue elephant? A: With a blue-elephant gun. Q: How do you shoot a pink elephant? A: Twist its trunk until it turns blue, then shoot it with a blue-elephant gun. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...
--- On Thu, 18/6/09, Liz wrote: > Merkaator is the program the writer was trying to recall. And I thought re-using acronyms were bad. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...
--- On Thu, 18/6/09, Liz wrote: > I wasn't very impressed. Keepright showed me that every > single one way street > in two towns had non-joined nodes. However it was wrong, at > least 90% of > cases. I've found it to be pretty accurate, except for when there was 2 ways very close together and it thought they should be joined, they were at some point but the road "moved"... > It claimed misspelled tags when the tag said > "created_by=JOSM" in a couple of > cases. At lot of those that I've seen are where someone uses an upper case letter in a tag, eg amenity=Bench would be wrong, it should be amenity=bench... > While I do see non-joined ways on the map which need > correcting I don't like > heaps of false positives. I've seen where people have put nodes on top of each other, but not connected, I usually select both of them and merge them and it fixes the problem. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...
On Wed, 17 Jun 2009, Delta Foxtrot wrote: > > JOSM and > > mercaator(sp?) are more sophisticated eg do proper > > Mercator is a projection, how to turn a sphere like object into a flat one Merkaator is the program the writer was trying to recall. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...
On Wed, 17 Jun 2009, Ross Scanlon wrote: > keepright for Australia is at: > > http://keepright.x10hosting.com > > It will show where there are errors in the current database. > > I also have it set up on a server here for my own use. I wasn't very impressed. Keepright showed me that every single one way street in two towns had non-joined nodes. However it was wrong, at least 90% of cases. It claimed misspelled tags when the tag said "created_by=JOSM" in a couple of cases. While I do see non-joined ways on the map which need correcting I don't like heaps of false positives. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...
>> Who said I was trivialising the problems, I only gave an >> example I can >> think of at least 50 possible errors when using gps. >> I'm not going to >> list every possibility every time I make a comment. > > If you make specific claims then people will assume that's all you had in > mind. What specific claims? I gave two examples (eg) of possible operator induced errors. -- Cheers Ross ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...
--- On Wed, 17/6/09, Ross Scanlon wrote: > Why should I. No where in osm does it state that a > GPX file has to be > uploaded. You don't have to upload anything to OSM, but you should if you care for the accuracy of the information you'll upload the gpx files which will give us, as a collective us, enough data points to create an accurate average. > Who said I was trivialising the problems, I only gave an > example I can > think of at least 50 possible errors when using gps. > I'm not going to > list every possibility every time I make a comment. If you make specific claims then people will assume that's all you had in mind. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...
> You should upload a GPX file, regardless if it's a simplified version or > not... Why should I. No where in osm does it state that a GPX file has to be uploaded. >> No kidding, do you really think that we don't know >> this. I've been using >> GPS since 1993 so I've got a pretty good idea of possible >> errors with >> them. > > Then why try and trivialise the problems that can occur down to simple > operator error? Who said I was trivialising the problems, I only gave an example I can think of at least 50 possible errors when using gps. I'm not going to list every possibility every time I make a comment. -- Cheers Ross ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...
--- On Wed, 17/6/09, Ross Scanlon wrote: > No, it's not why I should upload the GPX files. As I > said the info I > upload from josm is the edited version of the gpx files I > don't move the > nodes just use josm's simplify tool to remove all > unnecessary nodes. You should upload a GPX file, regardless if it's a simplified version or not... > No kidding, do you really think that we don't know > this. I've been using > GPS since 1993 so I've got a pretty good idea of possible > errors with > them. Then why try and trivialise the problems that can occur down to simple operator error? > Averaging the traces will not necessarily make the map more > accurate. If > there are two that correspond closely and one that's 20m > off then the > resultant way will be incorrect. Which is why I stated before about removing spurious data before averaging. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...
> > --- On Wed, 17/6/09, Ross Scanlon wrote: >> I guess it comes down to 99% of the ways I've mapped I've >> been the first >> one there. > > This is why you should upload your GPX files, because even if you are the > only one to map out a location, that isn't to say that will always be the > case. Once there is enough traces ways can be shifted to the average > location and the map ends up more accurate as a result. No, it's not why I should upload the GPX files. As I said the info I upload from josm is the edited version of the gpx files I don't move the nodes just use josm's simplify tool to remove all unnecessary nodes. > There is all sorts of reason there can be error besides mistakes operating > your equipment or how you drive round pot holes. > * You can be in an urban canyon or any other area that will increase > multi-path interference, or reduce your view of the sky. > > * You can have just bad timing and not have many satellites over head and > on top of that the ones you are seeing are close together. > > * There can be freaky things going on in the ionosphere and you won't even > know about that one unless you compare against other results, or have a > device that operates on dual frequencies. > > To name a few of them, more obvious ones are being in a tunnel, although > mobile phones with A-GPS can get round this. > > The reasons for errors in any system can be varied. No kidding, do you really think that we don't know this. I've been using GPS since 1993 so I've got a pretty good idea of possible errors with them. >> But as my first post said don't change anything that is tagged as >> source=survey unless you have a really good reason, eg road has been >> moved. > > Or the original trace wasn't done accurately in the first place, either > due to GPS errors, operator related or otherwise, or they didn't plot out > the trace matching the GPS points, or even a software bug could be at > fault. As I said if you have a really good reason to change a source=survey then do so but don't change it just because it's your trace and you think yours is the only correct one. Leave it alone if your not sure. Averaging the traces will not necessarily make the map more accurate. If there are two that correspond closely and one that's 20m off then the resultant way will be incorrect. -- Cheers Ross ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...
--- On Wed, 17/6/09, Ross Scanlon wrote: > I guess it comes down to 99% of the ways I've mapped I've > been the first > one there. This is why you should upload your GPX files, because even if you are the only one to map out a location, that isn't to say that will always be the case. Once there is enough traces ways can be shifted to the average location and the map ends up more accurate as a result. > Yes but how many places have you seen with 50 traces there. Not many, then again I'm not looking at GPS traces for metro areas, I can only assume either people probably just trace out their info and not bother uploading them or there isn't any traces available at all. > Additionally if you are tracing the gps trace and not using the nodes > from the gps trace then you are introducing another error. It's rare > that these traces are more than 5m apart anyway and most of that is > operator induced eg overtaking another vehicle, going arround a pothole > in the road. There is all sorts of reason there can be error besides mistakes operating your equipment or how you drive round pot holes. * You can be in an urban canyon or any other area that will increase multi-path interference, or reduce your view of the sky. * You can have just bad timing and not have many satellites over head and on top of that the ones you are seeing are close together. * There can be freaky things going on in the ionosphere and you won't even know about that one unless you compare against other results, or have a device that operates on dual frequencies. To name a few of them, more obvious ones are being in a tunnel, although mobile phones with A-GPS can get round this. > But as my first post said don't change anything that is tagged as > source=survey unless you have a really good reason, eg road has been > moved. Or the original trace wasn't done accurately in the first place, either due to GPS errors, operator related or otherwise, or they didn't plot out the trace matching the GPS points, or even a software bug could be at fault. The reasons for errors in any system can be varied. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...
>> The benefit I see is from law of averages, to a point, if you get 50 >> people tracing out the same ways, you average the points and neglect >> any spurious data and you should have a very accurate plotting. Yes but how many places have you seen with 50 traces there. Additionally if you are tracing the gps trace and not using the nodes from the gps trace then you are introducing another error. It's rare that these traces are more than 5m apart anyway and most of that is operator induced eg overtaking another vehicle, going arround a pothole in the road. > Have to agree about 200% with Delta on this one, I've seen way too many > cases of people who have obviously used their 1 gpx track to move and > existing surveyed way to follow it when if they'd used theirs and the > 20+ traces that were available on osm (and uploaded theirs so the next > person would have 21+ to use) they'd realise their track was a off that > day. I've also seen too many cases myself where I do a first trace > down a road to get a path then put together 3 or 4 over a period of > time and realise the first trace was off. But as my first post said don't change anything that is tagged as source=survey unless you have a really good reason, eg road has been moved. > The moral of the story is never ever ever use a GPS trace in isolation > if there's any others available in the area, and make you traces > available so the next person working in the area can benifit from your > input also. I guess it comes down to 99% of the ways I've mapped I've been the first one there. -- Cheers Ross ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...
Sorry- that should be _Never_ used potlatch 2009/6/18 Stephen Hope : > I've ever used Potlatch-I was nervous about having an editor that was > always live - no 'edit-check-save' cycle. I understand that has > recently changed, but the point is it's not that hard to use some of > the other options. > > Stephen > ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...
I've ever used Potlatch-I was nervous about having an editor that was always live - no 'edit-check-save' cycle. I understand that has recently changed, but the point is it's not that hard to use some of the other options. Stephen 2009/6/17 Dan O'Hara : > As a total newbie to this I was advised to use Potlatch as it was seen to be > the easiest. I understand that JOSM and mercaator(sp?) are more > sophisticated eg do proper roundabouts, but I wanted to graduate first! ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...
--- On Wed, 17/6/09, Dan O'Hara wrote: > Delta Foxtrot – I access OSM > through “GPS traces/see > your traces” link then “edit” (another > person uploaded a lot > of my tracks before I came to OSM but put my username in > the tag so I could > find and “fix”, do POIs, road surfaces > etc). It is sometimes > slow in opening but always does. As I said before trying pining various hostnames to find where the issue is, it sounds like you can hit the main website, but not the tile servers. Try pinging a.tile.openstreetmap.org b.tile.openstreetmap.org c.tile.openstreetmap.org > I have read other forum entries on > this type of problem and > have gone back (for a little while) to IE (I normally use > Firefox). I > have also contacted my ISP to see if my access is > “shaped”(???) and > asked local OSMers if they have similar problems. It > only started as a > problem about a month, 6 weeks or so ago. Frustrating > but I can work around > it for downloads and Potlatch opens automatically in > “edit”. I don't have any issues in firefox or opera... ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...
On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 05:30:43 -0700 (PDT) Delta Foxtrot wrote: > > I don't have a problem with uploading gps traces to osm but > > I can see no benifit if I'm just going to edit them in josm > > anyway and given that they are all one second data that's a > > lot of data to put on the osm servers when not really > > necessary. > > The benefit I see is from law of averages, to a point, if you get 50 > people tracing out the same ways, you average the points and neglect > any spurious data and you should have a very accurate plotting. Have to agree about 200% with Delta on this one, I've seen way too many cases of people who have obviously used their 1 gpx track to move and existing surveyed way to follow it when if they'd used theirs and the 20+ traces that were available on osm (and uploaded theirs so the next person would have 21+ to use) they'd realise their track was a off that day. I've also seen too many cases myself where I do a first trace down a road to get a path then put together 3 or 4 over a period of time and realise the first trace was off. The moral of the story is never ever ever use a GPS trace in isolation if there's any others available in the area, and make you traces available so the next person working in the area can benifit from your input also. -- =b ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Hi all ...
Thanks for your comments everyone. More reading. Delta Foxtrot - I access OSM through "GPS traces/see your traces" link then "edit" (another person uploaded a lot of my tracks before I came to OSM but put my username in the tag so I could find and "fix", do POIs, road surfaces etc). It is sometimes slow in opening but always does. I have read other forum entries on this type of problem and have gone back (for a little while) to IE (I normally use Firefox). I have also contacted my ISP to see if my access is "shaped"(???) and asked local OSMers if they have similar problems. It only started as a problem about a month, 6 weeks or so ago. Frustrating but I can work around it for downloads and Potlatch opens automatically in "edit". ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...
--- On Wed, 17/6/09, Dan O'Hara wrote: > As a total newbie to this I was > advised to use Potlatch > as it was seen to be the easiest. I understand that > JOSM and > mercaator(sp?) are more sophisticated eg do proper Mercator is a projection, how to turn a sphere like object into a flat one. > roundabouts, but I wanted to > graduate first! Also, I can not load (or view) maps > from osm.org for some > reason - I have to download or access OSM maps from other > sources. Have you tried pinging the website and/or check firewall/filtering rules? Actually how are you accessing potlatch if you can't view OSM maps? > cases. Can JOSM > and Mercaator do this type of tidying up? Perhaps I should > move in while still > wearing my "L"s? I did and it is so much more efficent to use than potlatch, bit of a learning curve but if you are keen and plan to do this for a while it's well worth the jump. > Ps what's keepright? OSM map that shows mapping errors... http://keepright.x10hosting.com/report_map.php It'll default to somewhere in Victoria, but I bookmarked a re-centred link for my local area... ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...
JOSM can do all this offline and you don't have to upload the gps trace to the osm server before editing it. It is easy to use and for major work is better than potlatch. Have a read here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Comparison_of_editors Best of all if it doesn't look right don't upload it and restart. keepright for Australia is at: http://keepright.x10hosting.com It will show where there are errors in the current database. I also have it set up on a server here for my own use. Cheers Ross On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 22:20:51 +1000 "Dan O'Hara" wrote: > As a total newbie to this I was advised to use Potlatch as it was seen to be > the easiest. I understand that JOSM and mercaator(sp?) are more > sophisticated eg do proper roundabouts, but I wanted to graduate first! > Also, I can not load (or view) maps from osm.org for some reason - I have to > download or access OSM maps from other sources. > > In my trials and errors - I tried to tidy up my tracks in Mapsource before > loading (eg the aimless wandering and chatting with others before a walk or > the straight line that sometimes happens when you turn off then turn on the > GPS in a different location without saving the track). However, i found out > (after I had uploaded and traced) that some were still untidy. I ended up > deleting a few of my uploads and reuploading. Lots of work for little > return, particularly in a couple of cases. Can JOSM and Mercaator do this > type of tidying up? Perhaps I should move in while still wearing my "L"s? > > Ps what's keepright? > > > -Original Message- > From: talk-au-boun...@openstreetmap.org > [mailto:talk-au-boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Ross Scanlon > Sent: Wednesday, 17 June 2009 10:11 PM > To: talk-au@openstreetmap.org > Subject: Re: [talk-au] Hi all ... > > On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 20:20:21 +1000 > "Dan O'Hara" wrote: > > > I have two immediate questions (actually I have a lot but these have been > > preying on my mind as a result of my breach). When you go to an > attraction, > > be it an outdoor winery/farm tour or say, fun park or caravan park, are > the > > tracks worthwhile to trace into OSM? > > Probably not, but they may be useful for marking out the boundaries of the > attraction. > > > Secondly, and unrelated to the first > > question . if tracks you place end up being radically different to the > > established map should you just stop at the track and not trace so others > > can see your green/blue track or should you put in a potentially > conflicting > > trace? I am (slowly) gaining knowledge in some of the less obvious screens > > to see who placed what trace where but, for the same technical reasons as > > above I can not "view" maps on OSM so this has not been easy. > > See if the way has a source tag if it does and this is other than survey or > gps then it's generally fair game to move it. > > > > As an aside to this why do people upload gps traces then trace them using > potlatch etc? > > I've always used josm for big uploads/edits. Potlatch when I just want to > quickly correct and error I've found or when using keepright. > > Load the area I'm working in from osm then loaded the gpx file into josm. I > then edit the ways etc of the gpx files using the tools in josm, simplify > way, align nodes in circle/line etc then upload the changes to osm. > > I don't have a problem with uploading gps traces to osm but I can see no > benifit if I'm just going to edit them in josm anyway and given that they > are all one second data that's a lot of data to put on the osm servers when > not really necessary. > > > Cheers > Ross > > ___ > Talk-au mailing list > Talk-au@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au > > ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Hi all ...
Thanks Ross As a total newbie to this I was advised to use Potlatch as it was seen to be the easiest. I understand that JOSM and mercaator(sp?) are more sophisticated eg do proper roundabouts, but I wanted to graduate first! Also, I can not load (or view) maps from osm.org for some reason - I have to download or access OSM maps from other sources. In my trials and errors - I tried to tidy up my tracks in Mapsource before loading (eg the aimless wandering and chatting with others before a walk or the straight line that sometimes happens when you turn off then turn on the GPS in a different location without saving the track). However, i found out (after I had uploaded and traced) that some were still untidy. I ended up deleting a few of my uploads and reuploading. Lots of work for little return, particularly in a couple of cases. Can JOSM and Mercaator do this type of tidying up? Perhaps I should move in while still wearing my "L"s? Ps what's keepright? ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...
--- On Wed, 17/6/09, Ross Scanlon wrote: > See if the way has a source tag if it does and this is > other than survey or gps then it's generally fair game to > move it. There is more ways than I care to count that are marked as survey that were poorly traced. > I don't have a problem with uploading gps traces to osm but > I can see no benifit if I'm just going to edit them in josm > anyway and given that they are all one second data that's a > lot of data to put on the osm servers when not really > necessary. The benefit I see is from law of averages, to a point, if you get 50 people tracing out the same ways, you average the points and neglect any spurious data and you should have a very accurate plotting. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...
--- On Wed, 17/6/09, Dan O'Hara wrote: > I have two immediate questions > (actually I have a lot but > these have been preying on my mind as a result of my > breach). When you go > to an attraction, be it an outdoor winery/farm tour or say, > fun park or caravan > park, are the tracks worthwhile to trace into OSM? The more data the better, even if it isn't displayed on the main website, there is a bunch of 3rd party mapping sites that plot the data differently, like they spatialise in hiking or biking trails rather than roads etc. > Secondly, and > unrelated to the first question … if tracks you place > end up being > radically different to the established map should you just > stop at the track > and not trace so others can see your green/blue track or > should you put in a > potentially conflicting trace? I am (slowly) gaining > knowledge in some of the > less obvious screens to see who placed what trace where > but, for the same > technical reasons as above I can not “view” > maps on OSM so this has > not been easy. De ju vu... :) http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/2009-June/001704.html ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Hi all ...
On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 20:20:21 +1000 "Dan O'Hara" wrote: > I have two immediate questions (actually I have a lot but these have been > preying on my mind as a result of my breach). When you go to an attraction, > be it an outdoor winery/farm tour or say, fun park or caravan park, are the > tracks worthwhile to trace into OSM? Probably not, but they may be useful for marking out the boundaries of the attraction. > Secondly, and unrelated to the first > question . if tracks you place end up being radically different to the > established map should you just stop at the track and not trace so others > can see your green/blue track or should you put in a potentially conflicting > trace? I am (slowly) gaining knowledge in some of the less obvious screens > to see who placed what trace where but, for the same technical reasons as > above I can not "view" maps on OSM so this has not been easy. See if the way has a source tag if it does and this is other than survey or gps then it's generally fair game to move it. As an aside to this why do people upload gps traces then trace them using potlatch etc? I've always used josm for big uploads/edits. Potlatch when I just want to quickly correct and error I've found or when using keepright. Load the area I'm working in from osm then loaded the gpx file into josm. I then edit the ways etc of the gpx files using the tools in josm, simplify way, align nodes in circle/line etc then upload the changes to osm. I don't have a problem with uploading gps traces to osm but I can see no benifit if I'm just going to edit them in josm anyway and given that they are all one second data that's a lot of data to put on the osm servers when not really necessary. Cheers Ross ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Hi all ...
Hi guys You will see straight away that I am new to this "forum". I would like to be able to call on assistance here every now and then and possibly to put in my 2 bob's worth every now and then. I also subscribe to the newbies talk but think, now, that I would prefer to talk with people who are playing in the same geography. I have recently breached etiquette and have realised (belatedly I'm afraid) that before I "do" perhaps I should ask first! I really only want to use OSM for two reasons - firstly to drop down maps (but have to do this through the Garmin site or OSMAust for technical reasons) which are quite good. And secondly, to put up the places where I've been (that others may not have been.) I have two immediate questions (actually I have a lot but these have been preying on my mind as a result of my breach). When you go to an attraction, be it an outdoor winery/farm tour or say, fun park or caravan park, are the tracks worthwhile to trace into OSM? Secondly, and unrelated to the first question . if tracks you place end up being radically different to the established map should you just stop at the track and not trace so others can see your green/blue track or should you put in a potentially conflicting trace? I am (slowly) gaining knowledge in some of the less obvious screens to see who placed what trace where but, for the same technical reasons as above I can not "view" maps on OSM so this has not been easy. Ta Detectist ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
