Re: [talk-au] Information source question - sorry kind of lengthy.
Finally got around to doing these changes. 10 ways were affected The signs at Willow Tree and just out of Merriwa only say that there is no access to the other town. I doesn't say where the actual closure is, so I relied on my pre closure drive Mapillary imagery. I vaguely remember that dating a fixme for action is possible, but I didn't do that, just described what happened and what has to be done. Is there a way to cause some kind of auto prompt to happen? Tnx On 3/2/22 11:32, Kim Oldfield via Talk-au wrote: On 3/2/22 09:23, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 at 22:18, Kim Oldfield via Talk-au wrote: update a short section of road there with access=no. =no or =private, because work crews can still drive in there to do repairs? Either would be fine as far as I'm concerned. Both achieve the primary objective of stopping routing engines from using this road. This achieves the main objective of stopping OSM from routing along the way. & would you also add noexit=yes to each end of the blocked section? noexit isn't a tag I've used. According to https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:noexit "It must be ignored by routing (GPS)." - which means its use shouldn't affect routing. Also, if you use access=private then noexit=yes is wrong because "other modes can continue". If you are using a map checking tool which complains if it doesn't have a noexit=yes tag then add it. Personally, I don't normally add tags which have no practical effect on how I use the map, and only affect a tool which: I haven't used, don't have experience with, and therefore can't verify if I'm using the tag correctly. & in regard to "Local Knowledge" ^^ So you're standing in the pub having a cold beer & the two blokes beside you are talking. "Jeez, Coulsons Creek Road is a mess. Had to go to Merriwa yesterday but it's closed from a landslide, so I had to go all the way to Woop Woop & back". "Yep, my sons part of the Main Roads crew looking at the repairs. "Very Bad Spot" has gone completely & he reckons it's going to be out for at least 2 years" Does that count as Local Knowledge? There will always be sources which require a subjective decision on what is sufficiently verifiable to justify mapping it. Are the two blokes beside you people who you know previously to be reliable sources? Or are they the local drunks who are known to tell tall tales? ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Information source question - sorry kind of lengthy.
On 3/2/22 09:23, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 at 22:18, Kim Oldfield via Talk-au wrote: update a short section of road there with access=no. =no or =private, because work crews can still drive in there to do repairs? Either would be fine as far as I'm concerned. Both achieve the primary objective of stopping routing engines from using this road. This achieves the main objective of stopping OSM from routing along the way. & would you also add noexit=yes to each end of the blocked section? noexit isn't a tag I've used. According to https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:noexit "It must be ignored by routing (GPS)." - which means its use shouldn't affect routing. Also, if you use access=private then noexit=yes is wrong because "other modes can continue". If you are using a map checking tool which complains if it doesn't have a noexit=yes tag then add it. Personally, I don't normally add tags which have no practical effect on how I use the map, and only affect a tool which: I haven't used, don't have experience with, and therefore can't verify if I'm using the tag correctly. & in regard to "Local Knowledge" ^^ So you're standing in the pub having a cold beer & the two blokes beside you are talking. "Jeez, Coulsons Creek Road is a mess. Had to go to Merriwa yesterday but it's closed from a landslide, so I had to go all the way to Woop Woop & back". "Yep, my sons part of the Main Roads crew looking at the repairs. "Very Bad Spot" has gone completely & he reckons it's going to be out for at least 2 years" Does that count as Local Knowledge? There will always be sources which require a subjective decision on what is sufficiently verifiable to justify mapping it. Are the two blokes beside you people who you know previously to be reliable sources? Or are they the local drunks who are known to tell tall tales? ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Information source question - sorry kind of lengthy.
I have used highway=construction where road was completely closed for a year or so. I also added a note about the the reason and anticipated duration. In such situations, sometimes sections of road near the closed section might remain open for restricted access by residents. If you are aware of this, it might be appropriate to use highway=service for such sections, also with a note about reason/duration. When the work is completed, tags can be changed back to highway=secondary or whatever is appropriate. On Thu, 3 Feb 2022, at 11:05 AM, Bob Cameron wrote: > Thanks for the feedback everyone. > > - There are indeed numerous sources that say the road is closed, for > more than one year. > - To avoid routing yes I could pick a likely spot and make in Access:No > - Livetraffic also have a text view that is end points specific, so any > Google Maps issue are probably moot. > - The problem is if I want to do the job properly I would like to place > the road barrier locations. When I went through the road was open only > at specific times and I have the barrier locations on Mapillary. I doubt > they would move the barriers as they had done extensive work on turning > (around) circles and the like. > - I would use the Mapillary image points initially then check any > wording on the signage in the next week. > > I have never mapped closed roads before, but since it is supposedly > temporary I think Access:No with a date action fix_me that described > why, what and when to review. I would suspect perhaps half a dozen ways > are affected so a cross ref in the fix_me might be prudent. To make it > obvious to downstream users I am thinking "- section closed for repair" > suffix the highway name. I would appreciate a consensus on this from the > list. (3 field changes per way) > > Yes work crew access may need "private" but as it stands I believe the > slip gap is quite wide and usual vehicle access not possible. "No exit" > is similarly cloudy. > > I am happy to leave it in a "providing as much info as possible" state, > if need be. > > On 2/2/22 20:50, Warin wrote: >> >> The 'facts cannot be copyright' may be a USA thing that does not work >> elsewhere. Don't know but I would not rely on it alone. >> >> >> Other sources of 'information'? Newspapers, radio and TV ... a quick >> google search gets a few of these.. and local council notices too. I >> would think these sources want the information used, so would not >> claim copyright on the information itself. >> >> >> The next question is .. how will you map it? Put 'disused:' in front >> of it and add a 'comment=land slip - under repair. expected opening in >> 2024'? >> > > ___ > Talk-au mailing list > Talk-au@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Information source question - sorry kind of lengthy.
On Feb 2, 2022, at 2:23 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: > So you're standing in the pub having a cold beer & the two blokes beside you > are talking. > ... > Does that count as Local Knowledge? Graeme, I'm not an attorney / solicitor, but what you describe is called "hearsay" and is not usually allowable as "evidence" (under Rules of Evidence; consult your local "Rules"). I know, we're not talking about a court of law, we're talking about "good practices to enter data into OSM so as to be compliant with ODbL." But similar principles apply: second-hand (or third-hand...) knowledge of something (e.g. a conversation overheard in a pub) edges into a land of "gossip" and this is why gossip can be so damaging (in a court of law OR in OSM): it isn't backed up by the "author's" (speaker's) direct observation. Anybody can "gin up" something. That doesn't make it true. How do you know those blokes in the pub aren't 100% setting you up to fail by entering the closure data in OSM? I realize such a scenario is far-fetched, but this technique absolutely has been used before to "trap" people into believing something is true, when it isn't. That's why "hearsay" is excluded from courts as evidence. OSM should be at least as cautious, so (speaking for myself), I wouldn't enter the pub conversation data into OSM. Good thread. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Information source question - sorry kind of lengthy.
Thanks for the feedback everyone. - There are indeed numerous sources that say the road is closed, for more than one year. - To avoid routing yes I could pick a likely spot and make in Access:No - Livetraffic also have a text view that is end points specific, so any Google Maps issue are probably moot. - The problem is if I want to do the job properly I would like to place the road barrier locations. When I went through the road was open only at specific times and I have the barrier locations on Mapillary. I doubt they would move the barriers as they had done extensive work on turning (around) circles and the like. - I would use the Mapillary image points initially then check any wording on the signage in the next week. I have never mapped closed roads before, but since it is supposedly temporary I think Access:No with a date action fix_me that described why, what and when to review. I would suspect perhaps half a dozen ways are affected so a cross ref in the fix_me might be prudent. To make it obvious to downstream users I am thinking "- section closed for repair" suffix the highway name. I would appreciate a consensus on this from the list. (3 field changes per way) Yes work crew access may need "private" but as it stands I believe the slip gap is quite wide and usual vehicle access not possible. "No exit" is similarly cloudy. I am happy to leave it in a "providing as much info as possible" state, if need be. On 2/2/22 20:50, Warin wrote: The 'facts cannot be copyright' may be a USA thing that does not work elsewhere. Don't know but I would not rely on it alone. Other sources of 'information'? Newspapers, radio and TV ... a quick google search gets a few of these.. and local council notices too. I would think these sources want the information used, so would not claim copyright on the information itself. The next question is .. how will you map it? Put 'disused:' in front of it and add a 'comment=land slip - under repair. expected opening in 2024'? ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Information source question - sorry kind of lengthy.
On Wed, 2 Feb 2022 at 22:18, Kim Oldfield via Talk-au < talk-au@openstreetmap.org> wrote: > update a short section of road there with access=no. > =no or =private, because work crews can still drive in there to do repairs? > This achieves the main objective of stopping OSM from routing along the > way. & would you also add noexit=yes to each end of the blocked section? & in regard to "Local Knowledge" ^^ So you're standing in the pub having a cold beer & the two blokes beside you are talking. "Jeez, Coulsons Creek Road is a mess. Had to go to Merriwa yesterday but it's closed from a landslide, so I had to go all the way to Woop Woop & back". "Yep, my sons part of the Main Roads crew looking at the repairs. "Very Bad Spot" has gone completely & he reckons it's going to be out for at least 2 years" Does that count as Local Knowledge? Thanks Graeme ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Information source question - sorry kind of lengthy.
What I'll often do is map what I can verify in person and is useful to others, even if it isn't complete. In this situation, the practical use to most others is that the road should no longer be routeable for through trips. If you know one end of the closure then update a short section of road there with access=no. This achieves the main objective of stopping OSM from routing along the way. The exact location of the other end of the closure can be added by any mapper at a later date when they survey where it is. Why it is closed, and how long it is closed for (which may not be accurately known) are good to add in a note or description. On 2/2/22 19:41, Bob Cameron wrote: MR358 or Coulsons Creek Road between Willow Tree and Merriwa NSW is closed for repair of major slippage as it crosses the Liverpool Ranges. "Livetraffic" (Traffic for NSW govt site) says not reopening until late 2023. A reference on that to a local govt site is devoid of any current information. In the OSM data catalogue Wiki thare are a number of TFNSW waivers but I dont see anything obvious that would allow me to copy the "Livetraffic" closed road section. Livetraffic uses Google maps. It is quite explicit as to what length/location is closed. As it turns out I'll be at the Willow Tree and Merriwa ends of this road in a week so can view any closure signs. I also know the slippage section as I drove on it just before it was closed a year ago. There are even Mapillary images of same. I don't however plan to drive up to the closure barriers at each end to check for sure! Do I have enough to make an educated guess as to what section would be deemed closed without violating any copy-write etc stuff. Tnx ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Information source question - sorry kind of lengthy.
On Feb 2, 2022, at 1:50 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote: > The 'facts cannot be copyright' may be a USA thing that does not work > elsewhere. Don't know but I would not rely on it alone. While I am reasonably certain this is true in the USA, I don't believe that makes it necessarily false elsewhere. Not to start an argument, but I'd be curious to know if a "fact" (about a closed section of roadway) falls under Australia's "Part III Works" (of copyright law there) of literary, artistic, musical and dramatic works, or "Part IV Subject Matter" (e.g. sound recordings, films, broadcasts...). It would seem to be "neither" (and leaving Australian copyright law with nothing to apply to), but I'm happy to be enlightened otherwise. Bob simply asks whether what he knows about a closed section of roadway going into OSM is a violation of ODbL. Questions of "where did the knowledge of this come from?" are valid to ask, but when the answer is "direct, personal observation," what is copyright-able? Any copyright law which claims that publishing (or re-publishing) straight facts is a violation of law needs to be examined in the light of what OSM Contributors do all day long: which is to put facts about the real world into a geospatial database. We're in real trouble if we can't do that. The corollary is that I don't think we're in real trouble. Again, it all seems to come down to "how did you learn about that?" If it was a government-published (maybe Crown Copyright holds, I wouldn't be surprised if it does) radio-disseminated Livetraffic broadcast (and again, for various reasons, that could go either way), I'd be wary of entering it (in Australia, but in USA, if published by federal gov't, it's automatically in the public domain; the fifty states vary somewhat but I'd say a trend is for "open data" or "sunshine" laws to apply and make it "freely" available). However, if it is Bob traveling to both sides of the closure, observing signs and concluding that such "facts" are directly observable truths in the real world, I'd offer him my two thumbs up to putting those data into OSM with little or no worry. If Bob heard a radio broadcast and those data fell under copyright for some reason, or he knows they were derived and/or explicitly Google Maps data, well, "not." But if he ALSO made the drive noted above, he can "mentally subtract" the radio/Google slap-that-might-say-don't and ignore those, allowing his "personal observations" to supersede. And maybe he even enters "personal observation" as the source of the data in his changeset comments as he does. (I've done that, and I'm proud when I do). (OK, that WAS kind of lengthy). ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Information source question - sorry kind of lengthy.
On 2/2/22 20:20, stevea wrote: On Feb 2, 2022, at 12:41 AM, Bob Cameron wrote: MR358 or Coulsons Creek Road between Willow Tree and Merriwa NSW is closed for repair of major slippage as it crosses the Liverpool Ranges. "Livetraffic" (Traffic for NSW govt site) says not reopening until late 2023. A reference on that to a local govt site is devoid of any current information. In the OSM data catalogue Wiki thare are a number of TFNSW waivers but I dont see anything obvious that would allow me to copy the "Livetraffic" closed road section. Livetraffic uses Google maps. It is quite explicit as to what length/location is closed. As it turns out I'll be at the Willow Tree and Merriwa ends of this road in a week so can view any closure signs. I also know the slippage section as I drove on it just before it was closed a year ago. There are even Mapillary images of same. I don't however plan to drive up to the closure barriers at each end to check for sure! Do I have enough to make an educated guess as to what section would be deemed closed without violating any copy-write etc stuff. I don't think this is lengthy at all (but I'm rumored to be loquacious). I think what this fundamentally comes to is "facts cannot be copyrighted." As long as you are aware that perhaps the Livetraffic MIGHT be copyrighted (you heard it over the air, so "maybe," it is government produced, so "maybe") and you explicitly "subtract that from your knowledge," you are on the right track. Start with your knowledge (you "know the slippage section" from only a year ago), that's pretty solid ground to stand on. Also, don't forget to "mentally subtract from your knowledge" anything Google Maps (explicit), though the fact that Livetraffic uses that is a grey area, as it could be considered a "derived work." I'm not a copyright attorney (and I am in California, USA), but if what you are entering into OSM what you know to be (truthful) facts, you're 100% OK, as "facts cannot be copyrighted." I don't know if this helps, I hope it does. Good on ya' to ask, maybe others can hone in on a better bullseye than I am here. ___ The 'facts cannot be copyright' may be a USA thing that does not work elsewhere. Don't know but I would not rely on it alone. Other sources of 'information'? Newspapers, radio and TV ... a quick google search gets a few of these.. and local council notices too. I would think these sources want the information used, so would not claim copyright on the information itself. The next question is .. how will you map it? Put 'disused:' in front of it and add a 'comment=land slip - under repair. expected opening in 2024'? ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Information source question - sorry kind of lengthy.
On Feb 2, 2022, at 12:41 AM, Bob Cameron wrote: > MR358 or Coulsons Creek Road between Willow Tree and Merriwa NSW is closed > for repair of major slippage as it crosses the Liverpool Ranges. > "Livetraffic" (Traffic for NSW govt site) says not reopening until late 2023. > A reference on that to a local govt site is devoid of any current information. > > In the OSM data catalogue Wiki thare are a number of TFNSW waivers but I dont > see anything obvious that would allow me to copy the "Livetraffic" closed > road section. > > Livetraffic uses Google maps. It is quite explicit as to what length/location > is closed. > > As it turns out I'll be at the Willow Tree and Merriwa ends of this road in a > week so can view any closure signs. I also know the slippage section as I > drove on it just before it was closed a year ago. There are even Mapillary > images of same. I don't however plan to drive up to the closure barriers at > each end to check for sure! > > Do I have enough to make an educated guess as to what section would be deemed > closed without violating any copy-write etc stuff. I don't think this is lengthy at all (but I'm rumored to be loquacious). I think what this fundamentally comes to is "facts cannot be copyrighted." As long as you are aware that perhaps the Livetraffic MIGHT be copyrighted (you heard it over the air, so "maybe," it is government produced, so "maybe") and you explicitly "subtract that from your knowledge," you are on the right track. Start with your knowledge (you "know the slippage section" from only a year ago), that's pretty solid ground to stand on. Also, don't forget to "mentally subtract from your knowledge" anything Google Maps (explicit), though the fact that Livetraffic uses that is a grey area, as it could be considered a "derived work." I'm not a copyright attorney (and I am in California, USA), but if what you are entering into OSM what you know to be (truthful) facts, you're 100% OK, as "facts cannot be copyrighted." I don't know if this helps, I hope it does. Good on ya' to ask, maybe others can hone in on a better bullseye than I am here. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Information source question - sorry kind of lengthy.
MR358 or Coulsons Creek Road between Willow Tree and Merriwa NSW is closed for repair of major slippage as it crosses the Liverpool Ranges. "Livetraffic" (Traffic for NSW govt site) says not reopening until late 2023. A reference on that to a local govt site is devoid of any current information. In the OSM data catalogue Wiki thare are a number of TFNSW waivers but I dont see anything obvious that would allow me to copy the "Livetraffic" closed road section. Livetraffic uses Google maps. It is quite explicit as to what length/location is closed. As it turns out I'll be at the Willow Tree and Merriwa ends of this road in a week so can view any closure signs. I also know the slippage section as I drove on it just before it was closed a year ago. There are even Mapillary images of same. I don't however plan to drive up to the closure barriers at each end to check for sure! Do I have enough to make an educated guess as to what section would be deemed closed without violating any copy-write etc stuff. Tnx ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
