Re: [OSM-talk-be] Fwd: [Tagging] Brasserie

[Thomas Bertels]

Reposting my message from tagging:
Based on https://www.lemoniteur.be/documentation/horeca-135.html it 
seems that a brasserie is a café that serves simple food, and hence 
the manager doesn't need to be a professional cook:

_Café_
Vous ne devez pas avoir un accès à la profession Restaurateurs et 
Traiteurs-organisateurs de banquets à condition de n'offrir que de la 
petite restauration (potages, croques et toutes sortes de toasts, 
croquettes, à l’exception de croquettes de pommes de terre, 
vol-au-vent, boudins noirs et boudins blancs, brochettes grilles, 
pains fourrés, hamburgers, hot-dogs, pittas et croissants, pâtes, 
pizzas, quiches ou autres tartes sales, salades froides, assiettes 
anglaises, œufs prépares, desserts (notamment des crêpes, des glaces, 
des gaufres, des gâteaux, des brioches, des yaourts et des 
milk-shakes). Ces repas légers ne peuvent être servis qu’avec du pain.
This category applies too to the "restaurants" that serve only pizzas 
(pizzerias), pitas, hamburgers... except french fries ("à l’exception 
de croquettes de pommes de terre").


Currently, amenity=pub food=yes seems to be the most used.


I've noticed that some places are called "Restaurant-Brasserie", and 
those don't just serve simple foods, but also classic restaurant foods.


So we should probably differentiate them based on that (at least in 
Belgium):


- The "Brasserie" ones could be tagged as amenity=pub food=yes (although 
pub has an Anglo-Saxon connotation, which is to be expected given the UK 
origin of osm).


- The "Restaurant-Brasserie" ones could be tagged as amenity=restaurant, 
but something is needed to specify that it's opened not just during 
classic hours (or do we just always add opening_hours?) and that we can 
drink without eating (so basically that it's also a café).


In addition to brasserie, bistro and taverne, there's also izakaya 
 in Japan. So I guess all of 
these could be tagged as amenity=pub food=yes?


Le 8/08/2017 à 19:12, Glenn Plas a écrit :

cuisine described the food served, not the restaurant type.

The wiki is quite clear on that
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:cuisine

So I quite agree with Marc that putting brasserie as this key's value is
not a description of the food being served.

Glenn


I'm not sure whether I like the cuisine=brasserie. Do all the
brasseries serve the same type food ? Can't you have a brasserie that
is only serving fish dishes, or meat or vegetarian or a combination ?
Can you expect the same food from a brasserie in Belgium and France ?

as for amenity=brasserie (and amenity=tavern) I fear that is a useless
tag, as long as the data consumers will not start using it.
What about the Danish Kro ? should they use amenity=tavern as well ?

Furthermore what is the difference between a brasserie, bistro,
taverne, eetcafe ? (I see Thomas has an explanation for brasserie)

m.



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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Fwd: [Tagging] Brasserie

[Thomas Bertels]

From https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/restaurant%3Atype%3Ait it 
seems that those should be replaced by cuisine=italian etc.


Le 8/08/2017 à 05:48, Marc Gemis a écrit :

ps. look at taginfo:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=restaurant%3Atype
reataurant:type:it is used 629 times. That was another source of
inspiration for me.
But it doesn't fit for amenity=pub. There is 1 pub:type:it though.

m

On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 5:45 AM, Marc Gemis  wrote:

But unlike a real pub (a "café"  in Dutch and French - or "bruine
kroeg"), you can get a decent meal in a brasserie, or  ice cream,
pancakes around 4pm etc. So the focus is much more on food imho.
So are you suggesting that amenity=pub; food=yes is better ?

the description tag is very general, but could be used. However, I
want something like the school:FR-tag. I believe that such a tag (or
tags) would make it easier for apps to allow the user to search in
their native language. It's my feeling that information gets lost by
translating bistro, taverne, brasserie, etc. to amenity=pub +
food=yes. (or amenity=restaurant).



On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 12:38 AM, marc marc  wrote:

Thomas Bertels  wrote:
  > A brasserie is "a small, informal restaurant that serves beer
  > and wine as well as simple food"
  > So should it be tagged as
  > - amenity=restaurant cuisine=brasserie (emphasis on food)?
  > - amenity=pub food=yes (emphasis on drinks)?
  > - amenity=brasserie?

For me, a "brasserie" in Belgium is not a restaurant (I didn't go to a
restaurant at 06:00pm to drink a beer as you can do with a "brasserie")

Le 07. 08. 17 à 13:01, Marc Gemis a écrit :

I typically tag them as amenity=restaurant.

somebody create a wiki page yesterday describing your opinion as the
advice to follow.
If it is your edit, at least it would be useful to wait for several
opinions before claiming that your opinion is the way to follow.
If it isn't yours, my remark applies to the one who created it


I also add a tag restaurant:type:NL or horeca:type:NL (I know both are
bad, undocumented tags) in which I place the "type" as indicated on
the building.

sorry I don't understand the mean of this tag
did you mean it is like a description in one word using what's written
on the wall of the building ? why not the description tag ?
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Authorization request for use of SPW data (PICC, orthophotos and others) and OSM representative

[Thomas Bertels]

Le 1/06/2017 à 11:18, joost schouppe a écrit :
Yep, you can. Spacebar+mouseclick. But there is no Imagery Offset 
Database [1] plugin for either iD or Potlatch, so in that way JOSM can 
be superior in some situations.


Both iD and Potlatch are fed through the OSM Editor Imagery index [2]; 
JOSM doesn't use that for some reason.
In the case of Flanders, since all license issues have been resolved, 
both GRB and imagery are available. You can verify the imagery 
alignment with the GRB layer which has centimeter precision. I haven't 
seen any issues myself.

I didn't know about that, pretty nice !
Although I don't think it works with "most recent" kind of imagery, with 
never changing URL.


Thomas
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Authorization request for use of SPW data (PICC, orthophotos and others) and OSM representative

[Thomas Bertels]

Le 31/05/2017 à 08:04, joost schouppe a écrit :

HI Thomas,

Thank you for taking this effort. For some it is extremely clear that 
we can use SPW datasets, for others it is extremely clear we can not. 
If the SPW are willing to officialise this, than we can step beyond 
the doubt and the divisive discussions.


Since a few months, we have a membership and a board at OpenStreetMap 
Belgium. Ben Abelshausen, Jonathan Belien and myself are on that 
board. Ben is also our representative with Open Knowledge. So any of 
us would be good if they want an "official representative". I would 
definitely be willing to help out. I live near Brussels. Jonathan is a 
real Bruxeleer, so it would be nice if we can meet there.
We can ask Dries at OpenKnowledge for a little help if SPW prefers 
talking to them directly.


 That's great! Vincent Bombaerts actually suggested that, though I 
wasn't sure you'd be willing to.


I hope some people from the Walloon side can join too.

That said, I wonder if they really understand the implications of our 
ODbL license. They can make a kind of contract with us, but that 
implies that all the data we generate based on that contract are 
exempt from the contract. If vector data would be included in such 
arrangement, someone could theoretically import all that data into 
OSM, after which anyone can use it for anything under the ODbL license.


That's exactly the kind of thing you'll be able to talk about.
However, I don't understand what vector data you talk about. From what I 
know, the SPW data is in raster format, and it seems we can vectorize it 
(trace).
And like André said, we don't copy the data, we consult it (= trace it 
or what I meant by using it).


Thomas


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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Authorization request for use of SPW data (PICC, orthophotos and others) and OSM representative

[Thomas Bertels]

Le 31/05/2017 à 00:39, André Pirard a écrit :
What is the need to contact all those people after a SPW lawyer made 
the situation clear?

To get an explicit authorization, like I said.
Following that, I've been on the phone with him and he told me that, 
like many already know, we can use the data from the SPW for OSM.

Not at all.
For anyone having understood the terms of the SPW that are clarified 
in my "YES we can trace the PICC" message, we are not allowed to use 
(copy) the (vector) data of the PICC but we are allowed to trace the 
images of the WMS et al. services.

By "using" I meant tracing while using the data as as background.
I also talked about the buildings numbers from PICC, which make it much 
easier to add building address details in OSM.
I had been requesting authorization for PICC and orthophotos, but he 
told me that there are other potentially useful data like MNT 
 
(relief) and others.


However, since I'd been asking for an explicit authorization (needed 
for integration into the iD editor), he told me that the 
authorization contract templates they've got require an organization. 
Probably because the data is free of the associations without 
lucrative purpose.
First, I strongly discourage using ID and Potlatch. This is what has 
led to highly imprecise Wallonia tagging as well as introducing 
tagging errors over the years.  All that work has to be redone with 
correction.
Please use the PICC with JOSM to achieve a 25 cm precision excellent 
tagging.
I don't understand, why does JOSM allow a higher precision? Because we 
can manually correct the background offset?
But if it's that, I wonder how you correct the background offset down to 
25 cm. Do you have a professional GPS receiver? Standard GPS devices are 
only down to 3 meters.
Anyway, users will still use iD, so providing them with a better imagery 
is a good thing in my opinion.


Thomas

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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Authorization request for use of SPW data (PICC, orthophotos and others) and OSM representative

[Thomas Bertels]

Le 30/05/2017 à 18:43, Thomas Bertels a écrit :
He would like to have someone to talk to on behalf of the Belgian (or 
at least Walloon) OSM community, to discuss further about the terms 
and potential future cooperation with OSM.
That person would be a link with the OSM community and would represent 
it when talking with him.
Like the SPW, Vincent Bombaerts is based in Namur, but can and does go 
to mapping and related initiatives like State Of The Map 2016 
<https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/State_Of_The_Map_2016> (in 
Brussels) and FOSDEM. So the meeting(s) don't need to take place in Namur.


Is anyone interested to be that person?


Obviously, I meant: who's in? ;-)
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[OSM-talk-be] Authorization request for use of SPW data (PICC, orthophotos and others) and OSM representative

[Thomas Bertels]

Hi,

After different emails to
* helpdesk.carto AT spw.wallonie.be (no official answer)
* carlo.diantonio AT gov.wallonie.be
* rene.collin AT gov.wallonie.be
* jeanclaude.jasselette AT spw.wallonie.be

I've finally received an email from Vincent Bombaerts 
<https://twitter.com/vbombaerts> (vincent.bombaerts AT spw.wallonie.be), 
Attaché to the SECRÉTARIAT GÉNÉRAL of the DIRECTION DE L'INTEGRATION DES 
GEODONNEES.


Following that, I've been on the phone with him and he told me that, 
like many already know, we can use the data from the SPW for OSM.
I had been requesting authorization for PICC and orthophotos, but he 
told me that there are other potentially useful data like MNT 
<http://geoportail.wallonie.be/catalogue/f3cdf392-a569-423e-889e-186c5e647cd3.html> 
(relief) and others.


However, since I'd been asking for an explicit authorization (needed for 
integration into the iD editor), he told me that the authorization 
contract templates they've got require an organization. Probably because 
the data is free of the associations without lucrative purpose.
He suggested Open Knowledge Belgium 
<https://www.openknowledge.be/about-us/>, which is the parent of 
OpenStreetMap Belgium <http://www.osm.be>.
I told him that what matters is that all OSM contributors are allowed to 
use SPW data for OSM.


He would like to have someone to talk to on behalf of the Belgian (or at 
least Walloon) OSM community, to discuss further about the terms and 
potential future cooperation with OSM.
That person would be a link with the OSM community and would represent 
it when talking with him.
Like the SPW, Vincent Bombaerts is based in Namur, but can and does go 
to mapping and related initiatives like State Of The Map 2016 
<https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/State_Of_The_Map_2016> (in 
Brussels) and FOSDEM. So the meeting(s) don't need to take place in Namur.


Is anyone interested to be that person?

Hopefully, those licensing issues should be soon a thing of the past.

Thomas Bertels
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