Re: [OSM-talk-be] WMS (aerial) imagery covering Belgium, now conveniently packaged for adding it to JOSM
Yes, it will be free for download in vector format, even without registration on the AGIV-website. Similar to the availability of CRAB. Same for the webservices. From: Jo [mailto:winfi...@gmail.com] Sent: maandag 5 januari 2015 13:47 To: OpenStreetMap Belgium Subject: Re: [OSM-talk-be] WMS (aerial) imagery covering Belgium, now conveniently packaged for adding it to JOSM That is indeed great news! Does it mean we'll be able to use the building outlines/contours as well then, in the foreseeable future? And, if so, would they be available as vectors/shape files, like in the UrbIS dataset? Or am I mistaken and is that in CRAB and not in GRB? Jo 2015-01-05 12:03 GMT+01:00 Glenn Plas gl...@byte-consult.bemailto:gl...@byte-consult.be: Thanks Jan for keeping us in the loop. This is awesome news. Glenn On 05-01-15 11:08, Jan Laporte wrote: GRB currently is in the process of becoming open data. The agreement is signed and official. Only the GRB-decree needs to be edited now before it effectively is open data. I can unfortunately not give a timing for that. In any case, it’ll be allowed quite soon. cheers *From:*André Pirard [mailto:a.pirard.pa...@gmail.commailto:a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com] *Sent:* donderdag 1 januari 2015 17:49 *To:* OpenStreetMap Belgium *Subject:* Re: [OSM-talk-be] WMS (aerial) imagery covering Belgium, now conveniently packaged for adding it to JOSM On 2015-01-01 16:19, Glenn Plas wrote : The danger in not adding GRB layer is that people will 'correct' using Bing, and we all know where that leads to... We should focus on efforts in getting GRB to open up. I'm terribly frustrated by people deleting buildings using Bing while I have added all new buildings using Agiv, doublechecked using GRB and addressed properly only to find out that the get deleted by some oblivious user. ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.orgmailto:Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be AGIV e-mail disclaimer: http://www.agiv.be/gis/organisatie/?artid=355 ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] WMS (aerial) imagery covering Belgium, now conveniently packaged for adding it to JOSM
Well, up to today, all the work is being done by AGIV. The municipalities can report issues with the database, it still is AGIV that sends out a contractor to do the mapping. And we always check 10% of the work our contractors bring in. Hence, the quality should be pretty much equal all over Flanders. Now in the future, the municipalities will be able to do their own mapping. They can send in as-built plans after construction works (public domain, not houses), those plans will be integrated in the GRB. Indeed, new houses are not yet fully mapped. A surveyor can of course not enter private terrain to map the back side of houses. So they map the front and add 5 meters to create the shape. We are currently updating those houses based on aerial mapping. In the future we will no longer release those half-mapped houses (people call them “garageboxen”). We have new aerial images every year, the houses will be released only when fully mapped. And indeed, mapping houses is a lot easier in rural areas than in urban areas. Building layouts can be complicated and the only indications our mappers have is what’s visible form the air (of course in combination with what was visible to the surveyor in the street). Perhaps a guesstimation sometimes looks better, but still what you see on the GRB is what is seen on aerial images. It could be that reality is more complex than a guesstimation. I’m not saying it all is perfect, but things like projection distortion should be rather exceptional, since they’re mapped with a stereo photo mapping technique. Cheers, jan From: Stijn Rombauts [mailto:stijnromba...@yahoo.com] Sent: maandag 5 januari 2015 21:29 To: OpenStreetMap Belgium Subject: Re: [OSM-talk-be] WMS (aerial) imagery covering Belgium, now conveniently packaged for adding it to JOSM Even in het Nederlands als ik mag. De gemeentes zijn verantwoordelijk voor 'hun' GRB. Ik vermoed dat alle gemeentes de opbouw van hun GRB uitbesteed hebben aan landmeters. Misschien dat updates (zie bv. https://www.agiv.be/news/2014/december/update-grootschalig-referentiebestand-20-12-2014) door de gemeentes zelf aan het GRB worden toegevoegd. Maar het is dus perfect mogelijk dat de kwaliteit in de ene gemeente minder is dan in een andere gemeente. Maar ze zouden eigenlijk toch allemaal moeten voldoen aan de eisen die door AGIV zijn opgelegd. De gebouwen in het GRB zijn gebaseerd op topografische opmetingen op terrein en op luchtfoto's. Waar mogelijk zijn de voorgevels opgemeten: die zouden dus behoorlijk correct moeten zijn. De rest is gebaseerd op de luchtfoto's. Zo krijg je soms vreemde toestanden van recente gebouwen waarvan de voorgevel is opgemeten, maar het achterliggende stuk grotendeels ontbreekt omdat ze niet op de luchtfoto's staan/stonden. De huizen in Beekstraat 55-61 zijn waarschijnlijk zo'n geval. Groetje, StijnRR From: Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.commailto:marc.ge...@gmail.com To: OpenStreetMap Belgium talk-be@openstreetmap.orgmailto:talk-be@openstreetmap.org Sent: Monday, January 5, 2015 8:23 PM Subject: Re: [OSM-talk-be] WMS (aerial) imagery covering Belgium, now conveniently packaged for adding it to JOSM I assume the quality depends on the GIS person adding the data. If he/she is less motivated/less capable/... the quality will be less. The example that you give seems like the classic case where the building was not yet finished when it was traced. Then they always draw a small rectangle along the front side. regards m On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 7:56 PM, Sander Deryckere sander...@gmail.commailto:sander...@gmail.com wrote: I think Pablo also helped in some pieces of the GRB: http://www.geopunt.be/kaart?viewer_url=http%3A%2F%2Fmaps.geopunt.be%2Fresources%2Fapps%2FGeopunt-kaart_app%2Findex.html%3Fid%3Dff8080814a6e1332014abb6b94c80023 Is it normal that quality differs from municipality to municipality? In Staden, I haven't seen any problem with GRB. But in Roeselare, I often bump into problems like these. Buildings with a completely clear form (however, they're often quite new, so perhaps drawn without aerial pics), but drawn completely wrong in GRB. Up until now, I've avoided the old centre of the town, because the building layouts are way too complicated there. It might get easier when we have access to the GRB. So yes, an automated import won't work, but being able to use it opens up a lot of perspectives, so thanks to anyone involved. Regards, Sander 2015-01-05 15:35 GMT+01:00 Gilbert Hersschens gherssch...@gmail.commailto:gherssch...@gmail.com: In comparison to Bing even Picasso wins ;-) On 5 January 2015 at 15:30, Glenn Plas gl...@byte-consult.bemailto:gl...@byte-consult.be wrote: In my experience, the outlines and building shapes I've seen in GRB are like 10 times better than all the work that exists using bing and other sources. A one on one copy would be silly, but if you bring it all together, agiv/grb and osm data,
Re: [OSM-talk-be] WMS (aerial) imagery covering Belgium, now conveniently packaged for adding it to JOSM
Hi, @sander: nice one to email Mapbox to update their imagery! :-) On the GRB: Every datasource lies even when of the highest possible quality. For example, the definition of a building may differ in some places. Think about a building with an underground parking place for example? It's great that we can use this as a source and this will improve OSM in a lot of places in the future. We will just have to treat it like any other source. IMHO almost always surveys or local knowledge is better and this will be or always should stay our strength. When looking at our own house I would add more detail, as I did in OSM, compared to GRB but this is only possible when you know the location. Thanks @ Jan Laporte for the detailed information here! Met vriendelijke groeten, Best regards, Ben Abelshausen ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] WMS (aerial) imagery covering Belgium, now conveniently packaged for adding it to JOSM
GRB currently is in the process of becoming open data. The agreement is signed and official. Only the GRB-decree needs to be edited now before it effectively is open data. I can unfortunately not give a timing for that. In any case, it’ll be allowed quite soon. cheers From: André Pirard [mailto:a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com] Sent: donderdag 1 januari 2015 17:49 To: OpenStreetMap Belgium Subject: Re: [OSM-talk-be] WMS (aerial) imagery covering Belgium, now conveniently packaged for adding it to JOSM On 2015-01-01 16:19, Glenn Plas wrote : The danger in not adding GRB layer is that people will 'correct' using Bing, and we all know where that leads to... We should focus on efforts in getting GRB to open up. I'm terribly frustrated by people deleting buildings using Bing while I have added all new buildings using Agiv, doublechecked using GRB and addressed properly only to find out that the get deleted by some oblivious user. If I understand well, GRB is the digitalized map and it is not allowed. Belgium is a strange country. In the north, they're able but not allowed to use it. In the south, they are allowed to use it but unable to (no WMS 4326). We should focus on adding to SPW Arcgis the few configuration lines I've shown. That's all there is to it unless the Arcgis doc is deceiving. Cheers André. There is no such thing as security by obscurity. At the very least, give them the option. Glenn On 28-12-14 22:59, Jo wrote: It's possible to have people sign an EULA. Would that help? I'd need to know what the restrictions are though. I thought we were just not supposed to copy their building outlines. I guess the parcel outlines are off limits as well, but I don't see those with the paramters I provided. I'd love to support iD as well, but why can't they program support for WMS? Why can't they be as flexible as possible? It's absurd that we'd have to setup a server to convert from WMS to TMS or have iD users use older imagery than the enlightened users of JOSM. It almost seems easier to try and peel people away from the 'dark side'. Jo 2014-12-28 21:50 GMT+01:00 Sander Deryckere sander...@gmail.commailto:sander...@gmail.com mailto:sander...@gmail.commailto:sander...@gmail.com: Jo, I'm not sure that the GRB layer should be part of the default layer set. It becomes too dangerous people will use it without reading about the limitations. AGIV e-mail disclaimer: http://www.agiv.be/gis/organisatie/?artid=355 ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] WMS (aerial) imagery covering Belgium, now conveniently packaged for adding it to JOSM
Thanks Jan for keeping us in the loop. This is awesome news. Glenn On 05-01-15 11:08, Jan Laporte wrote: GRB currently is in the process of becoming open data. The agreement is signed and official. Only the GRB-decree needs to be edited now before it effectively is open data. I can unfortunately not give a timing for that. In any case, it’ll be allowed quite soon. cheers *From:*André Pirard [mailto:a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com] *Sent:* donderdag 1 januari 2015 17:49 *To:* OpenStreetMap Belgium *Subject:* Re: [OSM-talk-be] WMS (aerial) imagery covering Belgium, now conveniently packaged for adding it to JOSM On 2015-01-01 16:19, Glenn Plas wrote : The danger in not adding GRB layer is that people will 'correct' using Bing, and we all know where that leads to... We should focus on efforts in getting GRB to open up. I'm terribly frustrated by people deleting buildings using Bing while I have added all new buildings using Agiv, doublechecked using GRB and addressed properly only to find out that the get deleted by some oblivious user. ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] WMS (aerial) imagery covering Belgium, now conveniently packaged for adding it to JOSM
Guys, Don't get overly exited about the building shapes. The quality of those shapes is quite variable. For free standing houses they are OK - in some cases even excellent, but for urban areas they are not very useful, certainly not as a source for import. I have been using those shapes for quite a while for comparison in cases where severe projection distortion and strong shadows gave me a hard time to figure out the shape of a particular building and in many cases the shapes in GRB were not better or even worse than my own guesstimation. They're OK for second opinions but I would never use a tool to import those shapes. Just my 2 cents. BTW, there are many other items in GRB besides the building shapes which are very helpful: shapes of administrative plots, railways (including disused tracks), streetnames, waterways, etc..). GRB also contains house numbers, but I prefer to use the CRAB WMS for that ( http://geo.agiv.be/inspire/wms/Adressen?). I've had a few cases where the CRAB numbers were different from those in GRB. After consulting with the local GIS administrator in all cases CRAB was right and GRB was wrong. It seems that CRAB and GRB are still not completely in sync... Gilbert On 5 January 2015 at 14:14, Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com wrote: In the worst case, we could try to do something with the Tracer2 plugin for JOSM See http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JOSM/Plugins/Tracer2 regards m On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 1:46 PM, Jo winfi...@gmail.com wrote: That is indeed great news! Does it mean we'll be able to use the building outlines/contours as well then, in the foreseeable future? And, if so, would they be available as vectors/shape files, like in the UrbIS dataset? Or am I mistaken and is that in CRAB and not in GRB? Jo 2015-01-05 12:03 GMT+01:00 Glenn Plas gl...@byte-consult.be: Thanks Jan for keeping us in the loop. This is awesome news. Glenn On 05-01-15 11:08, Jan Laporte wrote: GRB currently is in the process of becoming open data. The agreement is signed and official. Only the GRB-decree needs to be edited now before it effectively is open data. I can unfortunately not give a timing for that. In any case, it’ll be allowed quite soon. cheers *From:*André Pirard [mailto:a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com] *Sent:* donderdag 1 januari 2015 17:49 *To:* OpenStreetMap Belgium *Subject:* Re: [OSM-talk-be] WMS (aerial) imagery covering Belgium, now conveniently packaged for adding it to JOSM On 2015-01-01 16:19, Glenn Plas wrote : The danger in not adding GRB layer is that people will 'correct' using Bing, and we all know where that leads to... We should focus on efforts in getting GRB to open up. I'm terribly frustrated by people deleting buildings using Bing while I have added all new buildings using Agiv, doublechecked using GRB and addressed properly only to find out that the get deleted by some oblivious user. ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] WMS (aerial) imagery covering Belgium, now conveniently packaged for adding it to JOSM
That is indeed great news! Does it mean we'll be able to use the building outlines/contours as well then, in the foreseeable future? And, if so, would they be available as vectors/shape files, like in the UrbIS dataset? Or am I mistaken and is that in CRAB and not in GRB? Jo 2015-01-05 12:03 GMT+01:00 Glenn Plas gl...@byte-consult.be: Thanks Jan for keeping us in the loop. This is awesome news. Glenn On 05-01-15 11:08, Jan Laporte wrote: GRB currently is in the process of becoming open data. The agreement is signed and official. Only the GRB-decree needs to be edited now before it effectively is open data. I can unfortunately not give a timing for that. In any case, it’ll be allowed quite soon. cheers *From:*André Pirard [mailto:a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com] *Sent:* donderdag 1 januari 2015 17:49 *To:* OpenStreetMap Belgium *Subject:* Re: [OSM-talk-be] WMS (aerial) imagery covering Belgium, now conveniently packaged for adding it to JOSM On 2015-01-01 16:19, Glenn Plas wrote : The danger in not adding GRB layer is that people will 'correct' using Bing, and we all know where that leads to... We should focus on efforts in getting GRB to open up. I'm terribly frustrated by people deleting buildings using Bing while I have added all new buildings using Agiv, doublechecked using GRB and addressed properly only to find out that the get deleted by some oblivious user. ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] WMS (aerial) imagery covering Belgium, now conveniently packaged for adding it to JOSM
In my experience, the outlines and building shapes I've seen in GRB are like 10 times better than all the work that exists using bing and other sources. A one on one copy would be silly, but if you bring it all together, agiv/grb and osm data, it helps to make sense of what you are looking at. Also it is conclusive usually when new buildings replace older. It's the best source, I don't really care if the house isn't exactly as-is. The housenumber inports will take years, but it's fine as it is as tons of intelligent choices and conclusions, mistakes and other uglynes needs to be fixed too. And it all helps, if you overlay them with some transparacy adding GRB would be an awesome tool. I've been doing housenumer entries for weeks now, grb layer would defenitely be of good help. But never a dumb copy. Glenn On 05-01-15 15:05, Gilbert Hersschens wrote: Guys, Don't get overly exited about the building shapes. The quality of those shapes is quite variable. For free standing houses they are OK - in some cases even excellent, but for urban areas they are not very useful, certainly not as a source for import. I have been using those shapes for quite a while for comparison in cases where severe projection distortion and strong shadows gave me a hard time to figure out the shape of a particular building and in many cases the shapes in GRB were not better or even worse than my own guesstimation. They're OK for second opinions but I would never use a tool to import those shapes. Just my 2 cents. ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] WMS (aerial) imagery covering Belgium, now conveniently packaged for adding it to JOSM
In comparison to Bing even Picasso wins ;-) On 5 January 2015 at 15:30, Glenn Plas gl...@byte-consult.be wrote: In my experience, the outlines and building shapes I've seen in GRB are like 10 times better than all the work that exists using bing and other sources. A one on one copy would be silly, but if you bring it all together, agiv/grb and osm data, it helps to make sense of what you are looking at. Also it is conclusive usually when new buildings replace older. It's the best source, I don't really care if the house isn't exactly as-is. The housenumber inports will take years, but it's fine as it is as tons of intelligent choices and conclusions, mistakes and other uglynes needs to be fixed too. And it all helps, if you overlay them with some transparacy adding GRB would be an awesome tool. I've been doing housenumer entries for weeks now, grb layer would defenitely be of good help. But never a dumb copy. Glenn On 05-01-15 15:05, Gilbert Hersschens wrote: Guys, Don't get overly exited about the building shapes. The quality of those shapes is quite variable. For free standing houses they are OK - in some cases even excellent, but for urban areas they are not very useful, certainly not as a source for import. I have been using those shapes for quite a while for comparison in cases where severe projection distortion and strong shadows gave me a hard time to figure out the shape of a particular building and in many cases the shapes in GRB were not better or even worse than my own guesstimation. They're OK for second opinions but I would never use a tool to import those shapes. Just my 2 cents. ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] WMS (aerial) imagery covering Belgium, now conveniently packaged for adding it to JOSM
Even in het Nederlands als ik mag. De gemeentes zijn verantwoordelijk voor 'hun' GRB. Ik vermoed dat alle gemeentes de opbouw van hun GRB uitbesteed hebben aan landmeters. Misschien dat updates (zie bv. https://www.agiv.be/news/2014/december/update-grootschalig-referentiebestand-20-12-2014) door de gemeentes zelf aan het GRB worden toegevoegd. Maar het is dus perfect mogelijk dat de kwaliteit in de ene gemeente minder is dan in een andere gemeente. Maar ze zouden eigenlijk toch allemaal moeten voldoen aan de eisen die door AGIV zijn opgelegd. De gebouwen in het GRB zijn gebaseerd op topografische opmetingen op terrein en op luchtfoto's. Waar mogelijk zijn de voorgevels opgemeten: die zouden dus behoorlijk correct moeten zijn. De rest is gebaseerd op de luchtfoto's. Zo krijg je soms vreemde toestanden van recente gebouwen waarvan de voorgevel is opgemeten, maar het achterliggende stuk grotendeels ontbreekt omdat ze niet op de luchtfoto's staan/stonden. De huizen in Beekstraat 55-61 zijn waarschijnlijk zo'n geval. Groetje, StijnRR From: Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com To: OpenStreetMap Belgium talk-be@openstreetmap.org Sent: Monday, January 5, 2015 8:23 PM Subject: Re: [OSM-talk-be] WMS (aerial) imagery covering Belgium, now conveniently packaged for adding it to JOSM I assume the quality depends on the GIS person adding the data. If he/she is less motivated/less capable/... the quality will be less. The example that you give seems like the classic case where the building was not yet finished when it was traced. Then they always draw a small rectangle along the front side. regards m On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 7:56 PM, Sander Deryckere sander...@gmail.com wrote: I think Pablo also helped in some pieces of the GRB: http://www.geopunt.be/kaart?viewer_url=http%3A%2F%2Fmaps.geopunt.be%2Fresources%2Fapps%2FGeopunt-kaart_app%2Findex.html%3Fid%3Dff8080814a6e1332014abb6b94c80023 Is it normal that quality differs from municipality to municipality? In Staden, I haven't seen any problem with GRB. But in Roeselare, I often bump into problems like these. Buildings with a completely clear form (however, they're often quite new, so perhaps drawn without aerial pics), but drawn completely wrong in GRB. Up until now, I've avoided the old centre of the town, because the building layouts are way too complicated there. It might get easier when we have access to the GRB. So yes, an automated import won't work, but being able to use it opens up a lot of perspectives, so thanks to anyone involved. Regards, Sander 2015-01-05 15:35 GMT+01:00 Gilbert Hersschens gherssch...@gmail.com: In comparison to Bing even Picasso wins ;-) On 5 January 2015 at 15:30, Glenn Plas gl...@byte-consult.be wrote: In my experience, the outlines and building shapes I've seen in GRB are like 10 times better than all the work that exists using bing and other sources. A one on one copy would be silly, but if you bring it all together, agiv/grb and osm data, it helps to make sense of what you are looking at. Also it is conclusive usually when new buildings replace older. It's the best source, I don't really care if the house isn't exactly as-is. The housenumber inports will take years, but it's fine as it is as tons of intelligent choices and conclusions, mistakes and other uglynes needs to be fixed too. And it all helps, if you overlay them with some transparacy adding GRB would be an awesome tool. I've been doing housenumer entries for weeks now, grb layer would defenitely be of good help. But never a dumb copy. Glenn On 05-01-15 15:05, Gilbert Hersschens wrote: Guys, Don't get overly exited about the building shapes. The quality of those shapes is quite variable. For free standing houses they are OK - in some cases even excellent, but for urban areas they are not very useful, certainly not as a source for import. I have been using those shapes for quite a while for comparison in cases where severe projection distortion and strong shadows gave me a hard time to figure out the shape of a particular building and in many cases the shapes in GRB were not better or even worse than my own guesstimation. They're OK for second opinions but I would never use a tool to import those shapes. Just my 2 cents. ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
Re: [OSM-talk-be] WMS (aerial) imagery covering Belgium, now conveniently packaged for adding it to JOSM
I think Pablo also helped in some pieces of the GRB: http://www.geopunt.be/kaart?viewer_url=http%3A%2F%2Fmaps.geopunt.be%2Fresources%2Fapps%2FGeopunt-kaart_app%2Findex.html%3Fid%3Dff8080814a6e1332014abb6b94c80023 Is it normal that quality differs from municipality to municipality? In Staden, I haven't seen any problem with GRB. But in Roeselare, I often bump into problems like these. Buildings with a completely clear form (however, they're often quite new, so perhaps drawn without aerial pics), but drawn completely wrong in GRB. Up until now, I've avoided the old centre of the town, because the building layouts are way too complicated there. It might get easier when we have access to the GRB. So yes, an automated import won't work, but being able to use it opens up a lot of perspectives, so thanks to anyone involved. Regards, Sander 2015-01-05 15:35 GMT+01:00 Gilbert Hersschens gherssch...@gmail.com: In comparison to Bing even Picasso wins ;-) On 5 January 2015 at 15:30, Glenn Plas gl...@byte-consult.be wrote: In my experience, the outlines and building shapes I've seen in GRB are like 10 times better than all the work that exists using bing and other sources. A one on one copy would be silly, but if you bring it all together, agiv/grb and osm data, it helps to make sense of what you are looking at. Also it is conclusive usually when new buildings replace older. It's the best source, I don't really care if the house isn't exactly as-is. The housenumber inports will take years, but it's fine as it is as tons of intelligent choices and conclusions, mistakes and other uglynes needs to be fixed too. And it all helps, if you overlay them with some transparacy adding GRB would be an awesome tool. I've been doing housenumer entries for weeks now, grb layer would defenitely be of good help. But never a dumb copy. Glenn On 05-01-15 15:05, Gilbert Hersschens wrote: Guys, Don't get overly exited about the building shapes. The quality of those shapes is quite variable. For free standing houses they are OK - in some cases even excellent, but for urban areas they are not very useful, certainly not as a source for import. I have been using those shapes for quite a while for comparison in cases where severe projection distortion and strong shadows gave me a hard time to figure out the shape of a particular building and in many cases the shapes in GRB were not better or even worse than my own guesstimation. They're OK for second opinions but I would never use a tool to import those shapes. Just my 2 cents. ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] WMS (aerial) imagery covering Belgium, now conveniently packaged for adding it to JOSM
I assume the quality depends on the GIS person adding the data. If he/she is less motivated/less capable/... the quality will be less. The example that you give seems like the classic case where the building was not yet finished when it was traced. Then they always draw a small rectangle along the front side. regards m On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 7:56 PM, Sander Deryckere sander...@gmail.com wrote: I think Pablo also helped in some pieces of the GRB: http://www.geopunt.be/kaart?viewer_url=http%3A%2F%2Fmaps.geopunt.be%2Fresources%2Fapps%2FGeopunt-kaart_app%2Findex.html%3Fid%3Dff8080814a6e1332014abb6b94c80023 Is it normal that quality differs from municipality to municipality? In Staden, I haven't seen any problem with GRB. But in Roeselare, I often bump into problems like these. Buildings with a completely clear form (however, they're often quite new, so perhaps drawn without aerial pics), but drawn completely wrong in GRB. Up until now, I've avoided the old centre of the town, because the building layouts are way too complicated there. It might get easier when we have access to the GRB. So yes, an automated import won't work, but being able to use it opens up a lot of perspectives, so thanks to anyone involved. Regards, Sander 2015-01-05 15:35 GMT+01:00 Gilbert Hersschens gherssch...@gmail.com: In comparison to Bing even Picasso wins ;-) On 5 January 2015 at 15:30, Glenn Plas gl...@byte-consult.be wrote: In my experience, the outlines and building shapes I've seen in GRB are like 10 times better than all the work that exists using bing and other sources. A one on one copy would be silly, but if you bring it all together, agiv/grb and osm data, it helps to make sense of what you are looking at. Also it is conclusive usually when new buildings replace older. It's the best source, I don't really care if the house isn't exactly as-is. The housenumber inports will take years, but it's fine as it is as tons of intelligent choices and conclusions, mistakes and other uglynes needs to be fixed too. And it all helps, if you overlay them with some transparacy adding GRB would be an awesome tool. I've been doing housenumer entries for weeks now, grb layer would defenitely be of good help. But never a dumb copy. Glenn On 05-01-15 15:05, Gilbert Hersschens wrote: Guys, Don't get overly exited about the building shapes. The quality of those shapes is quite variable. For free standing houses they are OK - in some cases even excellent, but for urban areas they are not very useful, certainly not as a source for import. I have been using those shapes for quite a while for comparison in cases where severe projection distortion and strong shadows gave me a hard time to figure out the shape of a particular building and in many cases the shapes in GRB were not better or even worse than my own guesstimation. They're OK for second opinions but I would never use a tool to import those shapes. Just my 2 cents. ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] WMS (aerial) imagery covering Belgium, now conveniently packaged for adding it to JOSM
I just read a blog post about Mapbox updating aerial imagery in German cities from governmental sources, and I mailed them to ask if they'd want to use Agiv for Flanders too https://www.mapbox.com/blog/berlin-imagery-update/ If they want to do it, newbies using iD could just use the Agiv imagery in their editor (it's even in the default menu, so some little comparison effort would show them that it's better). If someone knows how to best contact Bing, it might be worth to ask Bing the same. Since the Agiv images are released under the Open Data license, it's perfectly possible to use them directly in a commercial app. Regards, Sander 2015-01-01 16:19 GMT+01:00 Glenn Plas gl...@byte-consult.be: The danger in not adding GRB layer is that people will 'correct' using Bing, and we all know where that leads to... We should focus on efforts in getting GRB to open up. I'm terribly frustrated by people deleting buildings using Bing while I have added all new buildings using Agiv, doublechecked using GRB and addressed properly only to find out that the get deleted by some oblivious user. There is no such thing as security by obscurity. At the very least, give them the option. Glenn On 28-12-14 22:59, Jo wrote: It's possible to have people sign an EULA. Would that help? I'd need to know what the restrictions are though. I thought we were just not supposed to copy their building outlines. I guess the parcel outlines are off limits as well, but I don't see those with the paramters I provided. I'd love to support iD as well, but why can't they program support for WMS? Why can't they be as flexible as possible? It's absurd that we'd have to setup a server to convert from WMS to TMS or have iD users use older imagery than the enlightened users of JOSM. It almost seems easier to try and peel people away from the 'dark side'. Jo 2014-12-28 21:50 GMT+01:00 Sander Deryckere sander...@gmail.com mailto:sander...@gmail.com: Jo, I'm not sure that the GRB layer should be part of the default layer set. It becomes too dangerous people will use it without reading about the limitations. ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] WMS (aerial) imagery covering Belgium, now conveniently packaged for adding it to JOSM
On 2015-01-01 16:19, Glenn Plas wrote : The danger in not adding GRB layer is that people will 'correct' using Bing, and we all know where that leads to... We should focus on efforts in getting GRB to open up. I'm terribly frustrated by people deleting buildings using Bing while I have added all new buildings using Agiv, doublechecked using GRB and addressed properly only to find out that the get deleted by some oblivious user. If I understand well, GRB is the digitalized map and it is not allowed. Belgium is a strange country. In the north, they're able but not allowed to use it. In the south, they are allowed to use it but unable to (no WMS 4326). We should focus on adding to SPW Arcgis the few configuration lines I've shown. That's all there is to it unless the Arcgis doc is deceiving. Cheers André. There is no such thing as security by obscurity. At the very least, give them the option. Glenn On 28-12-14 22:59, Jo wrote: It's possible to have people sign an EULA. Would that help? I'd need to know what the restrictions are though. I thought we were just not supposed to copy their building outlines. I guess the parcel outlines are off limits as well, but I don't see those with the paramters I provided. I'd love to support iD as well, but why can't they program support for WMS? Why can't they be as flexible as possible? It's absurd that we'd have to setup a server to convert from WMS to TMS or have iD users use older imagery than the enlightened users of JOSM. It almost seems easier to try and peel people away from the 'dark side'. Jo 2014-12-28 21:50 GMT+01:00 Sander Deryckere sander...@gmail.com mailto:sander...@gmail.com: Jo, I'm not sure that the GRB layer should be part of the default layer set. It becomes too dangerous people will use it without reading about the limitations. ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] WMS (aerial) imagery covering Belgium, now conveniently packaged for adding it to JOSM
The danger in not adding GRB layer is that people will 'correct' using Bing, and we all know where that leads to... We should focus on efforts in getting GRB to open up. I'm terribly frustrated by people deleting buildings using Bing while I have added all new buildings using Agiv, doublechecked using GRB and addressed properly only to find out that the get deleted by some oblivious user. There is no such thing as security by obscurity. At the very least, give them the option. Glenn On 28-12-14 22:59, Jo wrote: It's possible to have people sign an EULA. Would that help? I'd need to know what the restrictions are though. I thought we were just not supposed to copy their building outlines. I guess the parcel outlines are off limits as well, but I don't see those with the paramters I provided. I'd love to support iD as well, but why can't they program support for WMS? Why can't they be as flexible as possible? It's absurd that we'd have to setup a server to convert from WMS to TMS or have iD users use older imagery than the enlightened users of JOSM. It almost seems easier to try and peel people away from the 'dark side'. Jo 2014-12-28 21:50 GMT+01:00 Sander Deryckere sander...@gmail.com mailto:sander...@gmail.com: Jo, I'm not sure that the GRB layer should be part of the default layer set. It becomes too dangerous people will use it without reading about the limitations. ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] WMS (aerial) imagery covering Belgium, now conveniently packaged for adding it to JOSM
On 2014-12-28 22:55, Jo wrote : 2014-12-28 21:39 GMT+01:00 André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com: On 2014-12-28 18:30, Jo wrote : This is long overdue, but I finally got round to it. I added a page https://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Maps/Belgium with WMS sources for Belgium, for which we have permission to use. So now there are 3 more entries on this page: https://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Maps The resolutions are all better than Bing. They are also more recent. Is there somebody who knows a convenient way to add those coordinates, so a shape is shown? AGIV also has coverage for Brussels, The Walloon imagery also covers the German speaking part of Belgium. Well done, Jo. The only thing to do is now: JOSMImageryImagery Preferences[]Available...select BE...Activate Indeed, you have to refresh your list of Imagery in JOSM to see that these are available now. I don't know much about projections, but EPSG:4326 seems to work just fine for all three. Projections are simple: a mathematical transformation of the Earth surface to draw it on a plane (screen). EPSG:4326 uses the GPS coordinates (degrees) linearly (d ° NS/EW = c cm vertically/horizontally). Cylindrical is the projection as if by light beams perpendicular to the Earth axis. Mercator is the same but with a vertical correction so that the polar regions are not flattened. These 3 are quickly transformed one to another with little CPU. Hence, JOSM, which normally uses Mercator on screen, can convert any to its screen projection. The (Belgian) cartographers use Lambert projections which is similar to cylindrical, but on a cone that is tangent to a line going across their country (Belgium). This is so that the proportions of the distances are the same vertically and horizontally. The Belgian servers serve them too. In addition to EPSG:4326. Except SPW ( ;-) ). Thank you. I still don't fully understand, I merely grasp the concept somewhat... I don't believe I'll ever call them 'simple' though. Maybe the SPW too? ;-) One needs pictures. This, maybe (jgetoppositelng(); Dutch available (opposite???!!!)) http://www.ngi.be/FR/FR2-1-4.shtm http://www.ngi.be/FR/FR2-1-7.shtm http://www.ngi.be/FR/FR2-1-6.shtm Wikipedia Feel free to improve/extend that wiki page, if you can. I would add Wallonia 2009. It is sometimes useful (e.g. to get rid of trees). Is it just a matter of editing the file? Have to refresh the server? You edit the wiki page, the rest is done behind the scenes. I guess everybody has to refresh their list of imagery to see that somebody changed the page. I did, but I don't understand why someone renamed the 2012 map to 2009 at the same time !!! I created: SPW(allon) 2012 aerial imagery SPW(allon) 2009 aerial imagery (so that the essential appears in the short space in the JOSM list). I corrected the bounds (values changed and minlat/maxlat were inverted) I set the format to jpeg instead of bmp (less cache memory for a trifle more CPU). Please check if it's OK with you before I
Re: [OSM-talk-be] WMS (aerial) imagery covering Belgium, now conveniently packaged for adding it to JOSM
On 2014-12-29 17:33, André Pirard wrote : I created: *SPW(allon) 2012 aerial imagery** **SPW(allon) 2009 aerial imagery*** I forgot to add that these photographs may have a perspective effect. For example, a wall of a house may be visible so that the roof is offset. In one place I checked thoroughly, 2012 2-floor (1) houses are slanted 1.5 m in one direction and 2009 is slanted the same in the opposite direction. That means that the exact position of the house is the bottom of the wall at ground level and that the roofs are offset by that value. Of course, the wall and offset are visible only at the end of a row and the offset must be evaluated all along. All in all, precise tagging is tricky. Digitalized maps are corrected, so that a gentle way to use them is to evaluate the offset of the photo and to continue mapping with that photo. Cheers André. (1) Belgian, not American floors ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
[OSM-talk-be] WMS (aerial) imagery covering Belgium, now conveniently packaged for adding it to JOSM
This is long overdue, but I finally got round to it. I added a page https://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Maps/Belgium with WMS sources for Belgium, for which we have permission to use. So now there are 3 more entries on this page: https://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Maps The resolutions are all better than Bing. They are also more recent. Is there somebody who knows a convenient way to add those coordinates, so a shape is shown? AGIV also has coverage for Brussels, The Walloon imagery also covers the German speaking part of Belgium. I don't know much about projections, but EPSG:4326 seems to work just fine for all three. Feel free to improve/extend that wiki page, if you can. Cheers, Jo ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] WMS (aerial) imagery covering Belgium, now conveniently packaged for adding it to JOSM
On 2014-12-28 18:30, Jo wrote : This is long overdue, but I finally got round to it. I added a page https://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Maps/Belgium with WMS sources for Belgium, for which we have permission to use. So now there are 3 more entries on this page: https://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Maps The resolutions are all better than Bing. They are also more recent. Is there somebody who knows a convenient way to add those coordinates, so a shape is shown? AGIV also has coverage for Brussels, The Walloon imagery also covers the German speaking part of Belgium. Well done, Jo. The only thing to do is now: JOSMImageryImagery Preferences[]Available...select BE...Activate I don't know much about projections, but EPSG:4326 seems to work just fine for all three. Projections are simple: a mathematical transformation of the Earth surface to draw it on a plane (screen). EPSG:4326 uses the GPS coordinates (degrees) linearly (d ° NS/EW = c cm vertically/horizontally). Cylindrical is the projection as if by light beams perpendicular to the Earth axis. Mercator is the same but with a vertical correction so that the polar regions are not flattened. These 3 are quickly transformed one to another with little CPU. Hence, JOSM, which normally uses Mercator on screen, can convert any to its screen projection. The (Belgian) cartographers use Lambert projections which is similar to cylindrical, but on a cone that is tangent to a line going across their country (Belgium). This is so that the proportions of the distances are the same vertically and horizontally. The Belgian servers serve them too. In addition to EPSG:4326. Except SPW ( ;-) ). Feel free to improve/extend that wiki page, if you can. I would add Wallonia 2009. It is sometimes useful (e.g. to get rid of trees). Is it just a matter of editing the file? Have to refresh the server? Can id=SPW be the same or what should be used? What is that (3.xx) after the name JOSM displays? Any way to get rid of it? Cheers André. ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] WMS (aerial) imagery covering Belgium, now conveniently packaged for adding it to JOSM
Jo, I'm not sure that the GRB layer should be part of the default layer set. It becomes too dangerous people will use it without reading about the limitations. But anyway, thanks for working on it. Otoh, supporting iD is also important. We can't say Don't trace from Bing if people can't use Agiv in iD. For that, we would need a TMS. So that either means setting up a map proxy to convert WMS from Agiv to TMS, or finding some TMS layer available (there are TMS layers for older imagery from Agiv, but I've found none for the most recent imagery). Then, it needs to be added to this repo: https://github.com/osmlab/editor-imagery-index But I'm not experienced enough with imagery to accomplish this. Jo, are you, or is there anyone else wanting to look at this? I think it would save us a lot of problems. Regards, Sander 2014-12-28 21:39 GMT+01:00 André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com: On 2014-12-28 18:30, Jo wrote : This is long overdue, but I finally got round to it. I added a page https://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Maps/Belgium with WMS sources for Belgium, for which we have permission to use. So now there are 3 more entries on this page: https://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Maps The resolutions are all better than Bing. They are also more recent. Is there somebody who knows a convenient way to add those coordinates, so a shape is shown? AGIV also has coverage for Brussels, The Walloon imagery also covers the German speaking part of Belgium. Well done, Jo. The only thing to do is now: JOSMImageryImagery Preferences[]Available...select BE...Activate I don't know much about projections, but EPSG:4326 seems to work just fine for all three. Projections are simple: a mathematical transformation of the Earth surface to draw it on a plane (screen). EPSG:4326 uses the GPS coordinates (degrees) linearly (d ° NS/EW = c cm vertically/horizontally). Cylindrical is the projection as if by light beams perpendicular to the Earth axis. Mercator is the same but with a vertical correction so that the polar regions are not flattened. These 3 are quickly transformed one to another with little CPU. Hence, JOSM, which normally uses Mercator on screen, can convert any to its screen projection. The (Belgian) cartographers use Lambert projections which is similar to cylindrical, but on a cone that is tangent to a line going across their country (Belgium). This is so that the proportions of the distances are the same vertically and horizontally. The Belgian servers serve them too. In addition to EPSG:4326. Except SPW ( ;-) ). Feel free to improve/extend that wiki page, if you can. I would add Wallonia 2009. It is sometimes useful (e.g. to get rid of trees). Is it just a matter of editing the file? Have to refresh the server? Can id=SPW be the same or what should be used? What is that (3.xx) after the name JOSM displays? Any way to get rid of it? Cheers André. ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] WMS (aerial) imagery covering Belgium, now conveniently packaged for adding it to JOSM
It's possible to have people sign an EULA. Would that help? I'd need to know what the restrictions are though. I thought we were just not supposed to copy their building outlines. I guess the parcel outlines are off limits as well, but I don't see those with the paramters I provided. I'd love to support iD as well, but why can't they program support for WMS? Why can't they be as flexible as possible? It's absurd that we'd have to setup a server to convert from WMS to TMS or have iD users use older imagery than the enlightened users of JOSM. It almost seems easier to try and peel people away from the 'dark side'. Jo 2014-12-28 21:50 GMT+01:00 Sander Deryckere sander...@gmail.com: Jo, I'm not sure that the GRB layer should be part of the default layer set. It becomes too dangerous people will use it without reading about the limitations. But anyway, thanks for working on it. Otoh, supporting iD is also important. We can't say Don't trace from Bing if people can't use Agiv in iD. For that, we would need a TMS. So that either means setting up a map proxy to convert WMS from Agiv to TMS, or finding some TMS layer available (there are TMS layers for older imagery from Agiv, but I've found none for the most recent imagery). Then, it needs to be added to this repo: https://github.com/osmlab/editor-imagery-index But I'm not experienced enough with imagery to accomplish this. Jo, are you, or is there anyone else wanting to look at this? I think it would save us a lot of problems. Regards, Sander 2014-12-28 21:39 GMT+01:00 André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com: On 2014-12-28 18:30, Jo wrote : This is long overdue, but I finally got round to it. I added a page https://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Maps/Belgium with WMS sources for Belgium, for which we have permission to use. So now there are 3 more entries on this page: https://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Maps The resolutions are all better than Bing. They are also more recent. Is there somebody who knows a convenient way to add those coordinates, so a shape is shown? AGIV also has coverage for Brussels, The Walloon imagery also covers the German speaking part of Belgium. Well done, Jo. The only thing to do is now: JOSMImageryImagery Preferences[]Available...select BE...Activate I don't know much about projections, but EPSG:4326 seems to work just fine for all three. Projections are simple: a mathematical transformation of the Earth surface to draw it on a plane (screen). EPSG:4326 uses the GPS coordinates (degrees) linearly (d ° NS/EW = c cm vertically/horizontally). Cylindrical is the projection as if by light beams perpendicular to the Earth axis. Mercator is the same but with a vertical correction so that the polar regions are not flattened. These 3 are quickly transformed one to another with little CPU. Hence, JOSM, which normally uses Mercator on screen, can convert any to its screen projection. The (Belgian) cartographers use Lambert projections which is similar to cylindrical, but on a cone that is tangent to a line going across their country (Belgium). This is so that the proportions of the distances are the same vertically and horizontally. The Belgian servers serve them too. In addition to EPSG:4326. Except SPW ( ;-) ). Feel free to improve/extend that wiki page, if you can. I would add Wallonia 2009. It is sometimes useful (e.g. to get rid of trees). Is it just a matter of editing the file? Have to refresh the server? Can id=SPW be the same or what should be used? What is that (3.xx) after the name JOSM displays? Any way to get rid of it? Cheers André. ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
