Re: [OSM-talk-be] road signs plugin customization

[Glenn Plas]

On 2013-10-07 13:01, André Pirard wrote:

On 2013-10-06 17:48, Glenn Plas wrote :

EN:

Hi,

I'm in the process of creating a Belgian settings file for this great 
plug-in.
Thanks, but I think that we should first finish Road signs in Belgium 
 and other 
parts of the international wiki, otherwise the taggers will have to do 
the same job twice to revise their work and they won't.
I suppose it's a JOSM plugin, but unfortunately most taggers are using 
Potlatch and this is otherwise a problem by itself.
As I said, I'm trying to write a general document about these matters, 
I'd like to devote most of my time to it rather than participate to 
more discussions right now.


You fail to see the point of the tool, which is only natural when you 
don't even take a look at it yet judge People spend hours in the 
wiki to find tags for a sign.  Probably the reason why people to do to 
much traffic_sign entries.  This plugin offers a way to intuitively tag 
a section with those signs in mind,  in 2 clicks you can tag a way , 
read the wiki explainations right inside the tool when you click a 
familiar road sign. Also a help text, displaying the meaning of certain 
signs according to the law and my best effort to keep it updated an 
correct, and tranlated.


I'm making it for myself anyway, so I keep my tagging consistent, just 
offering to share it.


The wiki is a maze of deprecated and new pages, I'm so greatful they 
actually redirect you to -whatever new tagging scheme has been voted by 
25 people last week-   It's good it is there, but I want to spend 
quality  time in JOSM, not in the wiki.


Glenn


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Re: [OSM-talk-be] road signs plugin customization

[André Pirard]

On 2013-10-06 17:48, Glenn Plas wrote :
> EN:
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm in the process of creating a Belgian settings file for this great
> plug-in.
Thanks, but I think that we should first finish Road signs in Belgium
 and other
parts of the international wiki, otherwise the taggers will have to do
the same job twice to revise their work and they won't.
I suppose it's a JOSM plugin, but unfortunately most taggers are using
Potlatch and this is otherwise a problem by itself.
As I said, I'm trying to write a general document about these matters,
I'd like to devote most of my time to it rather than participate to more
discussions right now.

Cheers,

André.






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Re: [OSM-talk-be] road signs plugin customization

[Glenn Plas]

On 2013-10-06 19:56, Ben Laenen wrote:

On Sunday 06 October 2013 19:31:47 Glenn Plas wrote:

What plugin ?  I know of none that do what this does.

I know none exists right now, but if you start making some controversial
decisions other plugins can appear. I once tried making a webpage once though
where you could just click the signs and it would translate them into pages.
It was actually working as well, but it had to use some experimental and self-
invented tags to handle the complex access restrictions (like goods vehicles
above 5 tons only allowed between 7am and 12pm for loading and unloading). Was
actually a tool to think about those complex restrictions rather than Belgian
tags. The tagging method for complex restrictions has grown up now and since
it's not the same as the one I used, the page is no longer found anywhere. I
can still dig it up if someone wants to take a look, it's all javascript and
svg and didn't work with Internet Explorer at all :-) Just don't look to hard
at it as some things were just wrong...


I'll be sticking to the current wiki information, so won't be inventing 
new tags to cover specials or make it too complex.I just need to 
stay in the loop with the current tagging habits.

.

But seriously , "End the discussion on how to tag everything" ?  You
have too much spare time :)

I know, I've dwelt way too deep into this over the years and the things I
could do if I get all those hours discussing back :-) . It's always been one
of my goals in OSM to get access tags sorted out in a good and working way. I
certainly could have picked an easier topic because everyone has their own
ideas and they often are completely incompatible. Ranging from: tag everything
explicitely, all the way to: don't tag anything with access tags, just tag
what signs there are and let some tools do the translation. I've not given up
yet. But even if it never leads to a result, I certainly learned a lot about
our traffic code :-)

Ben

That last sentence sounds very familiar, it's an amazing maze ... very 
SM'ish of us isn't it :)


I think what this tool produces in tags isn't too controversial 
anyway.   I'm just mapping the wiki knowledge in the settings file for 
Belgium, it sure saves time looking up things you haven't tagged in the 
last 6 months.


The latest discusssion was about a wrong C3 sign in combination with the 
road, so this plugin won't help anyway.


Maybe we can finally tag this road in the Walloon region when I'm done:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktkb9soWl90

don't laugh, it's our money wasted

Glenn

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Re: [OSM-talk-be] road signs plugin customization

[Ben Laenen]

On Sunday 06 October 2013 19:31:47 Glenn Plas wrote:
> What plugin ?  I know of none that do what this does.

I know none exists right now, but if you start making some controversial 
decisions other plugins can appear. I once tried making a webpage once though 
where you could just click the signs and it would translate them into pages. 
It was actually working as well, but it had to use some experimental and self-
invented tags to handle the complex access restrictions (like goods vehicles 
above 5 tons only allowed between 7am and 12pm for loading and unloading). Was 
actually a tool to think about those complex restrictions rather than Belgian 
tags. The tagging method for complex restrictions has grown up now and since 
it's not the same as the one I used, the page is no longer found anywhere. I 
can still dig it up if someone wants to take a look, it's all javascript and 
svg and didn't work with Internet Explorer at all :-) Just don't look to hard 
at it as some things were just wrong...


> I think the tool
> will help the discussion.  I'm just creating our translated/modded
> version that applies to our road code.  It's easy to begin with the
> basis tags , for instance: access=no , then later when adding subsigns
> for C3 like  "uitzgezonderd bus" , you need to get creative and check
> the wiki to find out this would have to be added : key="access:bus"
> value="yes"
> 
> I won't be checking in any files until they are ok.  It will sure help
> beginners to map this, I spend hours in the wiki trying to translate
> that into the settings.
> 
> But seriously , "End the discussion on how to tag everything" ?  You
> have too much spare time :)

I know, I've dwelt way too deep into this over the years and the things I 
could do if I get all those hours discussing back :-) . It's always been one 
of my goals in OSM to get access tags sorted out in a good and working way. I 
certainly could have picked an easier topic because everyone has their own 
ideas and they often are completely incompatible. Ranging from: tag everything 
explicitely, all the way to: don't tag anything with access tags, just tag 
what signs there are and let some tools do the translation. I've not given up 
yet. But even if it never leads to a result, I certainly learned a lot about 
our traffic code :-)

Ben


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Re: [OSM-talk-be] road signs plugin customization

[Glenn Plas]

On 2013-10-06 19:15, Ben Laenen wrote:

On Sunday 06 October 2013 17:48:05 Glenn Plas wrote:

I'm in the process of creating a Belgian settings file for this great
plug-in.  It would be a perfect tool to distil the common knowledge and
tagging habits in our little country.  I've done this in the past
already (but half-assed ) but it's time to finish the work.  See
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JOSM/Plugins/RoadSigns for more
information

Great, but we still need to actually end the discussion on how to tag
everything first. Or we'll end up with competing plugins...

What plugin ?  I know of none that do what this does.  I think the tool 
will help the discussion.  I'm just creating our translated/modded 
version that applies to our road code.  It's easy to begin with the 
basis tags , for instance: access=no , then later when adding subsigns 
for C3 like  "uitzgezonderd bus" , you need to get creative and check 
the wiki to find out this would have to be added : key="access:bus" 
value="yes"


I won't be checking in any files until they are ok.  It will sure help 
beginners to map this, I spend hours in the wiki trying to translate 
that into the settings.


But seriously , "End the discussion on how to tag everything" ?  You 
have too much spare time :)


Glenn

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Re: [OSM-talk-be] road signs plugin customization

[Ben Laenen]

On Sunday 06 October 2013 17:48:05 Glenn Plas wrote:
> I'm in the process of creating a Belgian settings file for this great
> plug-in.  It would be a perfect tool to distil the common knowledge and
> tagging habits in our little country.  I've done this in the past
> already (but half-assed ) but it's time to finish the work.  See
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JOSM/Plugins/RoadSigns for more
> information

Great, but we still need to actually end the discussion on how to tag 
everything first. Or we'll end up with competing plugins...

Ben


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[OSM-talk-be] road signs plugin customization

[Glenn Plas]

EN:

Hi,

I'm in the process of creating a Belgian settings file for this great 
plug-in.  It would be a perfect tool to distil the common knowledge and 
tagging habits in our little country.  I've done this in the past 
already (but half-assed ) but it's time to finish the work.  See 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JOSM/Plugins/RoadSigns for more 
information


My source for the 'wegcode' is : 
http://www.wegcode.be/wetteksten/secties/kb/wegcode


The recent discussion concerning C3 traffic sign kind of triggered me to 
pick this up again.  I've noticed that the standard german settings 
deviate a lot from my own habits (not necessarily correct ones perhaps) 
and I'll probably will need some assistance fine-tuning the tags.   It 
would help a lot to get everyone to tag those in the same fashion like 
this.   The tool tags the way(or node) with appropriate key 
combinations, although it's not foolproof.


To prevent me doing all this work while someone else already done this 
I'm sending this message to call out to those.  I'm doing the dutch and 
the english help texts as well, but for french we'll need somone who 
writes the language better than myself.


It will need plenty of peer review and probably trigger some discussion 
or two.


teaser: http://debian.byte-consult.be/josm-roadsigns.png

NL:

Hallo,

Ik ben momenteel bezig met de Roadsigns plugin te modden naar een 
Belgische versie voor onze wegcode.   Dit is een handige tool waar je 
veel tagging kennis in kwijt kan wat ons klein landje betreft. In het 
verleden ben ik hier al eens aan begonnen maar dat bleef bij een halve 
poging.  Zie http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JOSM/Plugins/RoadSigns 
voor meer informatie.


De bron van de wegcode : 
http://www.wegcode.be/wetteksten/secties/kb/wegcode.


De recente discussie over bord C3 heeft me ertoe gedreven dit te 
beginnen doen, ik denk dat dit veel zal helpen om op een uniforme 
manier, restricties en verkeersborden te taggen.   Om te vermijden dat 
ik dubbel werk doe stuur ik dit even naar de lijst.  De Nederlandse en 
Engelse help files zal ik aanpassen aan onze gewoonte en de uitleg recht 
uit de wegcode.   Ik ga hulp nodig hebben nadien voor de Franse help 
text goed te krijgen.


Het resultaat zal zeker kritisch moeten worden bekeken door anderen en 
een discussie of twee lanceren.


Voor een sneak peek:

http://debian.byte-consult.be/josm-roadsigns.png

Glenn


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