Re: [Talk-ca] Highways in Yukon

[James Ewen]

On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 7:18 PM, Richard Weait  wrote:

>> One has to think about how the final map is going to be displayed.
>
> Now that is a little close to tagging for the renderer.

Yes, but I've been chastised about that statement before... we are not
tagging incorrectly to simply work around the renderer rules, but
rather tagging as to road classification importance, which the
renderer simply renders differently. If the data stored in the OSM
database is not useful to the user, then it may as well not be
included.

Back to my GPS... the major roads in the TeleAtlas database cause
routing problems. The routing routine will take me on a 350 km detour
just to stay on highways, rather than a 200 km direct route on what it
considers a major road. These major roads are indistinguishable from
the highways as far as physical features are concerned. Speed limits
are also identical.

I'd prefer to have these major roads promoted to the same
classification as the highways (in fact they are highways of the same
classification as the others)... as a side effect, the renderer in the
GPS would end up showing these roads that were previously not visible.

Just because the renderer changes the display doesn't mean that I am
specifically trying to misrepresent the road for the renderer.

The renderers take the tags we use into account when deciding on how
to display a way, so it is only appropriate that we also take into
account how the renderer will display the tags we are deciding to use.

It would be inappropriate to tag a stream as a coastline just to get
it to show up on a wide area map... it is however appropriate in my
opinion to tag an important major road (read only road) across a large
expanse of territory at an appropriate classification level, despite
what the rendering engines will do with it.

The database and renderers are pretty much married to each other.
Without the database, the renderers are useless. Without the
renderers, it's pretty hard to visualize the data.

James
VE6SRV

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Re: [Talk-ca] Fwd: [gvcc-members] Google Goes Bike with Directions

[john whelan]

The UK has publicly funded web sites that do routing.  Could some one work
on fed Canada or some such body working on the green angle?

Thanks John

On 11 March 2010 20:45, Gregory  wrote:

> The routing on bikemap.net is just showing you routes that people have
> added.
>
> http://www.cyclestreets.net/ is only available for the UK, but actually
> does routing based on OSM data. It's amazing as it does any point to any
> point and gives you 3 routes (fastest/direct, scenic, and in between) and
> the speed you want to go. It even accounts for being slowed down weaving
> your bike around (where barriers are added in OSM) or various road
> crossings/junctions. Try it out anywhere in the UK (note longer distances
> will take longer to calculate)
>
> They want a load of funding to develop further features and their servers
> have to do a lot of work to keep it running. I don't know how much it would
> take, but they might be interested if someone could help or provide serious
> (amount of) funding to expand it to the US/Canada, or at least parts.
>
>
> On 10 March 2010 05:23, Sam Vekemans  wrote:
>
>> When you use bikemap.net you can use the cyclemap layer & it will route
>> based on that.
>> http://www.bikemap.net/
>>
>> Also, for Garmin MapSource with using - OSM Worldwide routable, it does a
>> great job routing cyclists :)
>> http://garmin.na1400.info/routable.php
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Sam
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 4:44 AM, john whelan wrote:
>>
>>> Yes but do we have software that can work out a route for cyclists or
>>> pedestrians or bus and pedestrians yet?
>>>
>>> Cheerio John
>>>
>>> On 10 March 2010 03:30, Sam Vekemans wrote:
>>>
 G...

 But you cant print Google Maps in Books, nor can you create custom
 Garmin Maps & Iphone apps with the data ... or print mugs. Or create custom
 renderings or extract data from it.
 Nor can you edit the map & add more details.

 Nor can you create customs tourist maps (ie. Wiki-Travel) & maposmatic
 ...walking-papers or do anything else creative with the data.

 Yup, sites like www.bikemap.net www.wikiloc.com www.gpsies.com all show
 the OpenCycleMap layer & people keep donating their GPS tracks :-)

 So yup, we'll always have the edge :0)

 Cheers,
 Sam

 P.S. no i havent contacted the Bike League

 -- Forwarded message --
 From: ron 
 Date: Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 9:45 PM
 Subject: [gvcc-members] Google Goes Bike with Directions
 To: v...@yahoogroups.com, trans-act...@googlegroups.com,
 gvcc-memb...@yahoogroups.com, disc...@lists.velolove.bc.ca




   *Google Announces Google Biking Directions at the
 League of American Bicyclists'
 2010 National Bike Summit *



 *Washington, D.C. **-** March 10, 2010 **-* The League of American
 Bicyclists is proud to be the forum for Google to announce what all bike
 riders have been waiting for - Grab Your Bike and Go with Google Maps.
 Google is announcing at the Opening Plenary Session at the National
 Bike Summit
 that
 they are adding biking directions in the U.S. to Google Maps."This new tool
 will open people's eyes to the possibility and practicality of hopping on a
 bike and riding," said Andy Clarke, President of the League of American
 Bicyclists. "We know people want to ride more, and we know it's good for
 people and communities when they do ride more - this makes it possible. It
 is a game-changer, especially for those short trips that are the most
 polluting,"

 Users can now choose biking when deciding how to get to their
 destination, starting today, March 10, 2010. If you're one of the 57 
 million
 Americans who ride a bike, mapping your daily commute, and planning
 recreational or trail rides just became easier. According to Google this 
 has
 been the most requested addition to Google Maps, and the League is 
 delighted
 that they have chosen the National Bike Summit to unveil this new feature.
 Google's announcement further proves the importance of the Summit and the
 bicycle movement in helping our nation become a more Bicycle Friendly
 America.
 The Google biking directions will make it that much easier for bicyclists 
 to
 get to work, school or play.

 This new feature includes: step-by-step bicycling directions; bike
 trails outlined directly on the map; and a new "Bicycling" laye

Re: [Talk-ca] Google Streetview

[Gregory]

I know Ed Parsons, who I believe is basically the head of all things geo at
Google(I forget his exact title), and see him at various OSM events
(including State of the Map in 200, 2008, not sure about 2009). You can
imagine he often gets questioned about giving us his data if he likes us so
much.

The map data he can't give out because it actually belongs to Teleatlas or
whichever company they buy it off(depends on location). And they only buy it
to use it, no derived work, no giving it to anyone else, keeping the
copyright notice, etc. It's much much much cheaper and a Teleatlas find it
acceptable, than buying it out right.

So then StreetView came along. Google collected all the data/photos
themselves, by default they own the copyright to the geo-referenced photos.
Verbal: Mr Parsons, can we look at your photos please? Erm, in theory we
could let you do that, but, erm, not going to tell you officially that you
can. So he chickened out and it remains a no.
Until you have a written e-mail or letter from Google bosses/lawyers saying
you can copy the photos for data into OSM on the OSM license, then you can't
use them. I think even then you might not be able to use the current
Streetview as the photos are 'attached' to the Teleatlas data (e.g. when you
move along to a junction and can turn left/right/forward).

There is also a really good story about copyrighted road signs from the 2008
SOTM (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/State_Of_The_Map_2008). The video
is here: http://vimeo.com/6623060 (25mins long but very worth watching, you
could skip the first 6mins).

I'll end this message by saying I agree with Richard that you can/should use
Streetview to find interesting places to go out an map yourself. But that
might leave some places unloved. I would just use Streetview to check where
roads/areas are rough and I should go with an spare inner tube. :o)

-- 
Gregory
o...@livingwithdragons.com
http://www.livingwithdragons.com
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[Talk-ca] Fwd: Fwd: [gvcc-members] Google Goes Bike with Directions

[Richard Weait]

oops.  To the lists, too.

-- Forwarded message --
On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 8:45 PM, Gregory  wrote:
>
> The routing on bikemap.net is just showing you routes that people have added.
>
> http://www.cyclestreets.net/ is only available for the UK, but actually does 
> routing based on OSM data. It's amazing as it does any point to any point and 
> gives you 3 routes (fastest/direct, scenic, and in between) and the speed you 
> want to go. It even accounts for being slowed down weaving your bike around 
> (where barriers are added in OSM) or various road crossings/junctions. Try it 
> out anywhere in the UK (note longer distances will take longer to calculate)

http://www.ridethecity.com/ does this in New York City

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Re: [Talk-ca] Highways in Yukon

[Richard Weait]

On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 8:30 PM, James Ewen  wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 10:43 AM, Tim Francois  wrote:
>
>> I'm currently working on the Dempster highway with a tracklog I created
>> in the summer, hoping to extend it further north into NWT. The road
>> connecting to the Dempster in the south is the Klondike Highway.
>> However, this paved 'highway' is tagged as a secondary road, whilst the
>> unpaved Dempster is tagged as a primary road.
>>
>> I think the Klondike Highway, and other similar roads in this part of
>> Canada, should be tagged as primary roads. What do others think?
>
> This is a problem with the way that highways are tagged in my opinion.

Of course.

> The OSM features page sometimes uses physical attributes to describe
> the roadways.

Sure.  Some tags are better than others when measured on the scales of
observability, verifiability, importance and permanence.

> The roadway needs to be tagged for the usage it is designed for.

Agreed.  This case certainly suggests promoting the road a level or
two.  Sparsity of any roads, official designation, linking distant
communities each suggest promotion.  Promoting a highway is risky when
unaware of the surrounding context, but when there is nothing else for
dozens or hundreds of km Go ahead.

> One has to think about how the final map is going to be displayed.

Now that is a little close to tagging for the renderer.

> If it were up to me, classification would denote the importance of the
> road in the road network, and surface, number of lanes, and other tags
> would describe the physical attributes of the roadway.

That's the way it is.  There was discussion today on #osm about
primary road in Scotland; gravel, one shared land for both directions,
periodic pullouts for passing.

> My two bits, and then some!

Fair enough.

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Re: [Talk-ca] Fwd: [gvcc-members] Google Goes Bike with Directions

[Gregory]

The routing on bikemap.net is just showing you routes that people have
added.

http://www.cyclestreets.net/ is only available for the UK, but actually does
routing based on OSM data. It's amazing as it does any point to any point
and gives you 3 routes (fastest/direct, scenic, and in between) and the
speed you want to go. It even accounts for being slowed down weaving your
bike around (where barriers are added in OSM) or various road
crossings/junctions. Try it out anywhere in the UK (note longer distances
will take longer to calculate)

They want a load of funding to develop further features and their servers
have to do a lot of work to keep it running. I don't know how much it would
take, but they might be interested if someone could help or provide serious
(amount of) funding to expand it to the US/Canada, or at least parts.

On 10 March 2010 05:23, Sam Vekemans  wrote:

> When you use bikemap.net you can use the cyclemap layer & it will route
> based on that.
> http://www.bikemap.net/
>
> Also, for Garmin MapSource with using - OSM Worldwide routable, it does a
> great job routing cyclists :)
> http://garmin.na1400.info/routable.php
>
> Cheers,
> Sam
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 4:44 AM, john whelan wrote:
>
>> Yes but do we have software that can work out a route for cyclists or
>> pedestrians or bus and pedestrians yet?
>>
>> Cheerio John
>>
>> On 10 March 2010 03:30, Sam Vekemans wrote:
>>
>>> G...
>>>
>>> But you cant print Google Maps in Books, nor can you create custom Garmin
>>> Maps & Iphone apps with the data ... or print mugs. Or create custom
>>> renderings or extract data from it.
>>> Nor can you edit the map & add more details.
>>>
>>> Nor can you create customs tourist maps (ie. Wiki-Travel) & maposmatic
>>> ...walking-papers or do anything else creative with the data.
>>>
>>> Yup, sites like www.bikemap.net www.wikiloc.com www.gpsies.com all show
>>> the OpenCycleMap layer & people keep donating their GPS tracks :-)
>>>
>>> So yup, we'll always have the edge :0)
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Sam
>>>
>>> P.S. no i havent contacted the Bike League
>>>
>>> -- Forwarded message --
>>> From: ron 
>>> Date: Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 9:45 PM
>>> Subject: [gvcc-members] Google Goes Bike with Directions
>>> To: v...@yahoogroups.com, trans-act...@googlegroups.com,
>>> gvcc-memb...@yahoogroups.com, disc...@lists.velolove.bc.ca
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   *Google Announces Google Biking Directions at the
>>> League of American Bicyclists'
>>> 2010 National Bike Summit *
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Washington, D.C. **-** March 10, 2010 **-* The League of American
>>> Bicyclists is proud to be the forum for Google to announce what all bike
>>> riders have been waiting for - Grab Your Bike and Go with Google Maps.
>>> Google is announcing at the Opening Plenary Session at the National Bike
>>> Summit
>>> that
>>> they are adding biking directions in the U.S. to Google Maps."This new tool
>>> will open people's eyes to the possibility and practicality of hopping on a
>>> bike and riding," said Andy Clarke, President of the League of American
>>> Bicyclists. "We know people want to ride more, and we know it's good for
>>> people and communities when they do ride more - this makes it possible. It
>>> is a game-changer, especially for those short trips that are the most
>>> polluting,"
>>>
>>> Users can now choose biking when deciding how to get to their
>>> destination, starting today, March 10, 2010. If you're one of the 57 million
>>> Americans who ride a bike, mapping your daily commute, and planning
>>> recreational or trail rides just became easier. According to Google this has
>>> been the most requested addition to Google Maps, and the League is delighted
>>> that they have chosen the National Bike Summit to unveil this new feature.
>>> Google's announcement further proves the importance of the Summit and the
>>> bicycle movement in helping our nation become a more Bicycle Friendly
>>> America.
>>> The Google biking directions will make it that much easier for bicyclists to
>>> get to work, school or play.
>>>
>>> This new feature includes: step-by-step bicycling directions; bike trails
>>> outlined directly on the map; and a new "Bicycling" layer that indicates
>>> bike trails, bike lanes, and bike-friendly roads. The directions feature
>>> provides step-by-step, bike-specific routing suggestions - similar to the
>>> directions provided by our driving, walking, or public transit modes. Simply
>>> enter a start point and destination and select "Bicycling" from the
>>> drop

Re: [Talk-ca] Highways in Yukon

[James Ewen]

On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 10:43 AM, Tim Francois  wrote:

> I'm currently working on the Dempster highway with a tracklog I created
> in the summer, hoping to extend it further north into NWT. The road
> connecting to the Dempster in the south is the Klondike Highway.
> However, this paved 'highway' is tagged as a secondary road, whilst the
> unpaved Dempster is tagged as a primary road.
>
> I think the Klondike Highway, and other similar roads in this part of
> Canada, should be tagged as primary roads. What do others think?

This is a problem with the way that highways are tagged in my opinion.
The OSM features page sometimes uses physical attributes to describe
the roadways.

The roadway needs to be tagged for the usage it is designed for. The
Dempster Highway is a primary highway linking major centers. (Okay,
relatively major centers, relative to barren land...) In OSM terms
though, it could probably even be tagged as a trunk as it is a very
important road in the area.

One has to think about how the final map is going to be displayed.
Most of the rendering engines use the classification of the road to
determine at what level to display the way. If you classify the
Dempster Highway as a track (to fit the description "gravel roads in
the forest"), it will only show up once you have zoomed in so close,
that you can't make any use of the map information.

I have this type of problem with my GPS. I travel the highway to Fort
McMurray quite often. The TeleAtlas database has the primary highway
classified as a major road. If I zoom out far enough to see where I am
heading, the map screen goes blank. Pretty hard to decide which roads
to take when there are none depicted. Once I zoom in close enough to
see the roads, I can no longer see my destination, so it is difficult
to determine which road I should take to get to my desired
destination.

Our northern territories don't have a lot of roads, and have a lot of
territory. You need to be zoomed well out to be able to see where you
are and where you want to be in most cases. The roads between those
locations are of major importance if you are attempting to drive
between the locales, and as such should be tagged as such. Even if the
classification description for the UK suggests that that road
classification should be paved with striped lines, and a hard
shoulder, in the Yukon, that same classification of road might only be
a gravel surface.

If it were up to me, classification would denote the importance of the
road in the road network, and surface, number of lanes, and other tags
would describe the physical attributes of the roadway.

My two bits, and then some!

James
VE6SRV

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Re: [Talk-ca] Streets with frontage roads...

[Gregory]

On 8 March 2010 12:18, James Ewen  wrote:

> What is the common ground on tagging these things? I would guess that
> all these roads would get named Grandin Road, as the houses are all
> addressed as Grandin Road. I was thinking that the 4 lane section get
> bumped to tertiary as it is a collector road, and as such would be
> more important than just a plain residential road. The side roads
> could then stay as residential, or perhaps they would be better tagged
> at a lower level?
>

I would go for that. On UK occurrences of this I would possibly tag them as
service rather than residential, but it depends how wide/used the road is
(try to think if you saw it on it's own).

Later somebody (hopefully) will add the house numbers (using
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/House_numbers/Karlsruhe_Schema)
and the houses will either be in a relation with the side/frontage
road
they are on, or they will be tagged with addr:street=Grandin Road and an
algorithm would pick the closest Grandin Road to the house number it wants.

Off-topic: The OSM map now has a "Shortlink" in the bottom right with
"Permalink" and you get something like http://osm.org/go/WPoaJWjUy- Which I
prefer over other link-shorteners in a mailing list because I can see it is
going to OSM rather than needing to trust you won't take be to some
virus-laden website. :o)

-- 
Gregory
o...@livingwithdragons.com
http://www.livingwithdragons.com
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Re: [Talk-ca] Highways in Yukon

[Richard Weait]

On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 12:43 PM, Tim Francois  wrote:
> Just wanted to gauge opinion before I change anything:
>
> I'm currently working on the Dempster highway with a tracklog I created
> in the summer, hoping to extend it further north into NWT. The road
> connecting to the Dempster in the south is the Klondike Highway.
> However, this paved 'highway' is tagged as a secondary road, whilst the
> unpaved Dempster is tagged as a primary road.
>
> I think the Klondike Highway, and other similar roads in this part of
> Canada, should be tagged as primary roads. What do others think?

You might be our local expert, as you've actually driven the roads.

Do please include explicit tags where these roads and your chosen
designation is a departure from the defaults.

surface=unpaved (or something more specific like surface=gravel) where
appropriate.

lanes= number of travel lanes

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[Talk-ca] Highways in Yukon

[Tim Francois]

Just wanted to gauge opinion before I change anything:

I'm currently working on the Dempster highway with a tracklog I created
in the summer, hoping to extend it further north into NWT. The road
connecting to the Dempster in the south is the Klondike Highway.
However, this paved 'highway' is tagged as a secondary road, whilst the
unpaved Dempster is tagged as a primary road.

I think the Klondike Highway, and other similar roads in this part of
Canada, should be tagged as primary roads. What do others think?

Thanks
Tim


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Re: [Talk-ca] Google Streetview

[Sam Vekemans]

And while were extending the discussion...

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Image

Using an image=* tag would help as when your out there photo-mapping you can
share photos with this tag.   :-)

The page still needs to be fixed, as it might turn out that it only applies
to 'points of interest' (so on an actual node or area), however, i see no
reason why all photos cant be 'geotagged' this way.

Cheers,
Sam

On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 1:12 AM, Andrew MacKinnon wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 1:10 PM, Robert Shand  wrote:
>
> >> I would tend to agree with this, as I have spotted street view imagery
> >> having been doctored.  I used to live on a one-way street, and the
> >> imagery in Street View clearly showed the SV car travelling in the wrong
> >> direction on the street.  I pointed this out to Google; they
> Photoshopped
> >> the car out of the imagery for two blocks.
>
> Also don't forget that Google Street View data is significantly out of
> date, because most of it was captured in Summer 2009. Copying a large
> quantity of outdated data from Google Street View would be a dead
> giveaway if the street has changed since the photo was taken (e.g.
> because of new businesses replacing old businesses, etc.)
>
> Andrewpmk
>
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Re: [Talk-ca] Google Streetview

[Andrew MacKinnon]

On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 1:10 PM, Robert Shand  wrote:

>> I would tend to agree with this, as I have spotted street view imagery
>> having been doctored.  I used to live on a one-way street, and the
>> imagery in Street View clearly showed the SV car travelling in the wrong
>> direction on the street.  I pointed this out to Google; they Photoshopped
>> the car out of the imagery for two blocks.

Also don't forget that Google Street View data is significantly out of
date, because most of it was captured in Summer 2009. Copying a large
quantity of outdated data from Google Street View would be a dead
giveaway if the street has changed since the photo was taken (e.g.
because of new businesses replacing old businesses, etc.)

Andrewpmk

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