Re: [Talk-ca] Automated imports of Canvec?
On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 9:05 PM, Steve Singer wrote: > If someone were to import a 100% pure canvec data an empty openstreetmap > instance and render this as a background WMS layer would this then make > editing/importing canvec data in Potlach easier? I think tracing a more > verbose version of canvec might be less error prone for many people than > importing direct from the .OSM files. That would be nice to have. One of the difficulties with the Canvec import is the fact that the Canvec data gave way in deference to existing OSM data. This means that there are lots of places where we need to connect the two together (not so hard), or where poorly aligned ways were kept and better quality Canvec data was left out. http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=53.786&lon=-112.0373&zoom=14&layers=M Being able to see the Canvec data that was left out would be nice. Being able to grab the segments that were left out and import them to replace the poorly aligned ways copied from low resolution images would be even better. -- James VE6SRV ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] HWY 7 - Carleton Place to HWY 417
Oh, and the changeset is #10128549. -Original Message- From: Gordon Dewis Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 23:55:16 To: Talk-CA OpenStreetMap Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] HWY 7 - Carleton Place to HWY 417 On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 3:24 PM, Richard Weait wrote: > On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 1:58 PM, Gordon Dewis wrote: > > > I may head out this evening and gather some GPS tracks so that this can > be > > done. > > Super! > Ok, so I headed out and drove Highway 7 between the 417 and McNeely Avenue in Carleton Place this evening. I drove most of the on and off ramps, but there were a pair at each interchange that I couldn't drive. For those that I didn't drive I manually added them and added a tag "review_needed=KofM", so anyone interested in driving those ones can quickly find them. I also tweaked some of the adjacent roads to fix some alignment issues. Because I got off at each interchange I couldn't actually drive under the roads at the interchanges so those have been manually connected. The only thing remaining to do is to add them to the Highway 7 relationship, but that should be fairly straightforward for anyone to do. :) Cheers! --G (aka Keeper of Maps) ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] HWY 7 - Carleton Place to HWY 417
On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 3:24 PM, Richard Weait wrote: > On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 1:58 PM, Gordon Dewis wrote: > > > I may head out this evening and gather some GPS tracks so that this can > be > > done. > > Super! > Ok, so I headed out and drove Highway 7 between the 417 and McNeely Avenue in Carleton Place this evening. I drove most of the on and off ramps, but there were a pair at each interchange that I couldn't drive. For those that I didn't drive I manually added them and added a tag "review_needed=KofM", so anyone interested in driving those ones can quickly find them. I also tweaked some of the adjacent roads to fix some alignment issues. Because I got off at each interchange I couldn't actually drive under the roads at the interchanges so those have been manually connected. The only thing remaining to do is to add them to the Highway 7 relationship, but that should be fairly straightforward for anyone to do. :) Cheers! --G (aka Keeper of Maps) ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] Automated imports of Canvec?
On Thu, 15 Dec 2011, James Ewen wrote: on this issue... well onto the build that tool side. I'm probably one of the "problem children" causing issues importing Canvec data because I lack the knowledge of how to fix all the errors that are reported by JOSM. I can't even find out where the errors are to fix them, so I import and then go back with Potlatch because I know how to get that program to work. Does anyone have a URL for a WMS layer that displays Canvec roadnames for the smaller roads? Everytime I've looked at the canvec WMS layers I've never seen names of non-highways show up. If someone were to import a 100% pure canvec data an empty openstreetmap instance and render this as a background WMS layer would this then make editing/importing canvec data in Potlach easier? I think tracing a more verbose version of canvec might be less error prone for many people than importing direct from the .OSM files. Is there anyone on list with a server/bandwith to do this? Steve ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] Automated imports of Canvec?
On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 5:24 PM, James Ewen wrote: > On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 1:46 PM, Richard Weait wrote: > >> I think that OSM will be "complete, and in maintenance mode" once we >> have a mapper on every block. > > And in what dream world do you live? Yes, I know. Come on in; the water's fine. :-) Yes, Canada is big and people are sparse in essentially all of it. By population density Canada is number 230-something, iirc. We have some real challenges painting a room this big. I thought the idea that imports were hurting OSM was ridiculous when it was first proposed to me. We have an interesting opportunity. We have been granted permission to include CanVec. We have a lot of space and many remote communities on various scales. So we could choose to experiment and try to find the best way to import so that local mappers start participating. Few other OSM country-communities have this opportunity. The US has data but it's already in place, everywhere. Australia has similar population and density challenges, but less available data to import. If there is an ideal way to use external reference data to "seed" local communities and get local contributors to OSM, I'd like to know what the secret is. It seemed like the Toronto community grew the fastest when we had the arterial grid roads for most of the city. Some of those grids were "filled in" by new local mappers. I think OSM with more contributors is better. Do we keep doing things the same way, or do we try some other things? Best regards, Richard ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] Automated imports of Canvec?
On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 1:46 PM, Richard Weait wrote: > I think that OSM will be "complete, and in maintenance mode" once we > have a mapper on every block. And in what dream world do you live? With a population of 34 million, and an area just under 10 million square kilometres, we've got a long way to go to have one mapper on every block. Right now if every single person in Canada contributed to OSM each person would need to look after more than 0.25 square kilometres of area. We really don't have that kind of participation level in Canada yet. Even if we did, would you be willing to wander up to Ellesmere Island and wander about your assigned chunk of land with your GPS, and gather all the pertinent data for inclusion in the OSM database? > Yes. That's a grand goal. As more and > more places approach that grand goal, the local data gets better and > better. Few important things can change in the real world without a > mapper noticing and updating OSM. Maybe, perhaps if you're lucky you might find a few places where there might be a congregation of mappers and it may look like there are lots of helping hands available. For the most part Canada is sparsely populated. Most of the population lives along the US border. If your goal is to map out the densely populated portion of the country and leave the rest a blank slate, then perhaps your goal is attainable. For the rest of us who do not live in the sardine can, the task of mapping the rest of that blank slate is a wholly unattainable goal within our lifetime, the lifetime of our children, their children, and probably even their children. There are millions of square km of wilderness that have never been travelled by humans, and remote sensing is the most cost effective way of mapping the area. Canvec has that data already in hand. In what world does it make sense to reinvent the wheel? Pull in Canvec data in areas where there's no data available, and as mappers have the time, ability, and inclination, updates and changes can be made to increase the accuracy of the data included in the OSM database. > While data-processing tools have improved with every generation, I > don't think that "insufficient automation" is the problem. It sure would help. I'm standing as far away from the fence as I can on this issue... well onto the build that tool side. I'm probably one of the "problem children" causing issues importing Canvec data because I lack the knowledge of how to fix all the errors that are reported by JOSM. I can't even find out where the errors are to fix them, so I import and then go back with Potlatch because I know how to get that program to work. BTW, I'm not flying to Toronto to go to an OSM gathering to learn how to run JOSM... > I'm willing to listen to reason (well, _I_ think I'm reasonable,) Yes, you are, and you have a lot of valuable insight, and reasoned arguements. To get some insight into the task at hand, please map out the City of Prince Albert, Saskatchewan. It is in need of additional detail, such as the city streets. It's only 65 square kilometres, so it's not much more than your share of Canada to map if we were able to get 5% of the Canadian population to work on mapping Canada. > So far we haven't got strong data to support or refute that imports > harm OSM community vs. imports are better than no data. I guess we just stop doing anything and see if there's any change. > How about considering a partial import in some places. We've done that in Alberta. The roads were imported in areas where there was nothing before. There's a bunch of work to do to fix where the import stopped and low resolution tracing was left in place. That's getting done slowly. In the mean time, there's data on the map, rather than a blank slate. I still go out of my way to gather GPS tracks and upload them to OSM. I make a bunch of detours into the pull offs and rest areas along the major highways now, to gather information that isn't available in the Canvec data. I can concentrate on adding detail, rather than having to try and splash copious quantities of low quality data across the province to try and get "something" on the map. -- James VE6SRV ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] Automated imports of Canvec?
On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 2:05 PM, Tyler Gunn wrote: [ ... ] > What I've got in mind is a plugin for JOSM where you'd add a bunch of > Canvec tiles to a list, hit a button and leave it alone while it does > its thing. In a complete surprise, I'm going to recommend against this. :-) I think that OSM will be "complete, and in maintenance mode" once we have a mapper on every block. Yes. That's a grand goal. As more and more places approach that grand goal, the local data gets better and better. Few important things can change in the real world without a mapper noticing and updating OSM. While data-processing tools have improved with every generation, I don't think that "insufficient automation" is the problem. I'm willing to listen to reason (well, _I_ think I'm reasonable,) and I have some suggestions that will allow me to feel better about such a process should you decide to proceed. So far we haven't got strong data to support or refute that imports harm OSM community vs. imports are better than no data. Other than my brilliantly insightful personal observations and anecdotal data, obviously. Can we set up an A vs B test to determine the long term benefits of imports? Would picking an area with ten towns, dividing it in two similar portions and importing one provide such data? How about considering a partial import in some places. One long-time contributor from Italy suggested, "Don't import the roads." The idea being that if you don't have to go add the roads, you don't bother to join the community. Other options? Best regards, Richard ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] HWY 7 - Carleton Place to HWY 417
On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 1:58 PM, Gordon Dewis wrote: > I may head out this evening and gather some GPS tracks so that this can be > done. Super! ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
[Talk-ca] Automated imports of Canvec?
I've been merging Canvec tiles here in Manitoba over the past while, and although I can clearly see the need to do this manually where this is pre-existing data, I'm wondering what peoples thoughts are about automating this process where there is NO pre-existing data in the location bounded by a tile. What I've got in mind is a plugin for JOSM where you'd add a bunch of Canvec tiles to a list, hit a button and leave it alone while it does its thing. The general process I'm envisioning is: For each tile in list: If tile contains coastline, skip Download data in area bounded by tile. If no data found, merge tile into downloaded area. Select boundaries of tile and automatically merge nodes from adjacent tiles to eliminate the duplicates on the tile boundaries. Upload results Mark tile in list indicating it was processed End The populated areas are probably best to be done manually as we're doing them now, but there are vast areas of the country where I think this would work well. Opinions? ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] HWY 7 - Carleton Place to HWY 417
On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 7:34 PM, Richard Weait wrote: > Highway 7 from 417 to Carleton Place appears to be twinned now and > upgraded to divided highway. Aerial imagery appears to be too old to > show the dual carriageway and new junctions. Some GPS tracks exist in > the area. Canvec from this August include some of the twinning and > diverted local roads nearer to 417, but not at the Carleton Place end. > > Would a contributor in the Carleton Place area please use local > knowledge, and new survey to rip and replace Highway 7 from 417 to > Carleton Place? That will purge any contributions that contributor > may have concerns about. > I may head out this evening and gather some GPS tracks so that this can be done. --G ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] CanVec Imports
Maybe they altered the position of the lane slightly or merged it with another piece that didn't have come from CanVec? I know that's occasionally happened when I've been extending coverage of an area based on my GPS tracks. --G -Original Message- From: john whelan Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 13:32:53 To: Talk-CA OpenStreetMap Subject: [Talk-ca] CanVec Imports ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] CanVec Imports
I've done this sort of thing when my edit changes something so significantly that it no longer resembles what was imported -- for example, rerouting a way to conform with Bing imagery or with my own local knowledge. By the time I'm done with it, it's no longer Canvec; in some cases I've actually deleted the Canvec and traced something new over Bing imagery. I've been less good at updating the source tag to reflect the source of the changes (e.g., knowledge, Bing, survey, etc.). On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 1:32 PM, john whelan wrote: > > Why would someone remove a tag that says Canvec import? > > They had added a cycle lane but removed the Canvec Import tag at the same > time. > > Thanks John > > ___ > Talk-ca mailing list > Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca > -- Jonathan Crowe http://www.jonathancrowe.net ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
[Talk-ca] CanVec Imports
Why would someone remove a tag that says Canvec import? They had added a cycle lane but removed the Canvec Import tag at the same time. Thanks John ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] Surrey Imagery
On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 3:11 AM, Paul Norman wrote:
> Thanks to iandees, the imagery from Surrey BC is now mirrored with an OSM US
> server. It can be accessed with an imagery URL of
> tms[10,20]:http://{switch:a,b,c}.tile.osm.osuosl.org/tiles/bc_surrey_2011/{z
> oom}/{x}/{y}.png in JOSM, or
> http://a.tile.osm.osuosl.org/tiles/bc_surrey_2011/$z/$x/$y.png in Potlatch2.
Nice! Thanks, Paul and Ian.
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[Talk-ca] Surrey Imagery
Thanks to iandees, the imagery from Surrey BC is now mirrored with an OSM US
server. It can be accessed with an imagery URL of
tms[10,20]:http://{switch:a,b,c}.tile.osm.osuosl.org/tiles/bc_surrey_2011/{z
oom}/{x}/{y}.png in JOSM, or
http://a.tile.osm.osuosl.org/tiles/bc_surrey_2011/$z/$x/$y.png in Potlatch2.
This URL should bring up PL2 in Queens Park, New Westminster with the
imagery loaded.
http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?editor=potlatch2&lat=49.215&lon=-122.903&z
oom=17&tileurl=http://a.tile.osm.osuosl.org/tiles/bc_surrey_2011/$z/$x/$y.pn
g
The tiles are cached on the osuosl server but uncached tiles are accessed
from my home server. This is blazingly fast for me, but not so fast for
everyone else. Expect a bit of a delay at high zooms as it fetches the data.
I have pre-fetched the lower zooms.
The data is licensed under the PDDL and suitable for tracing from. Running
off of my home server, this service is only for OSM and not for other
projects.
The imagery was flown in April-May 2011 and captured digitally at a 10cm
resolution. There are moderate leafs on the trees. The imagery is more
accurate than consumer grade GPS. The extents of the imagery are the north
end of the Port Mann, 800m south of the US border, 204 Street in Langley,
and a line running from approximately 19th Ave and 2nd St in Burnaby through
the east part of Queensborough and Annacis Island and down near 104th Street
in Delta. This includes all of Surrey, most of New Westminster, a large part
of Pitt Meadows, Barnston Island, most of North Delta, part of Langley City,
all of White Rock and part of Burnaby and Coquitlam.
Technical details: The imagery was converted from mrsid files to GeoTIFFs
and then a parallized version of gdal2tiles converted it into TMS tiles with
lanczos resampling.
If the load becomes excessive I will have to throttle my server but I do not
anticipate the need to do so. Many thanks to Ian for mirroring this.
My standard offer of the imagery to anyone who supplies the dual-layer DVDs
necessary to transfer it applies.
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