Re: [Talk-ca] restriction=no_right_turn_on_red causing routing problems in Toronto

[Nathan Wessel]

It seems like conditional restrictions may be what we need.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Conditional_restrictions

But it looks like we would be forging new ground if we went that direction. I 
don't see anything on that page about signals of any kind. (yet!)


-Nate


From: Begin Daniel 
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2016 4:07:15 PM
To: James; Nathan Wessel
Cc: Talk-CA OpenStreetMap
Subject: RE: [Talk-ca] restriction=no_right_turn_on_red causing routing 
problems in Toronto

Whatever the tag or its value, we need it.
There are (unfortunately) plenty of such restrictions in my neighbourhood that 
I never mapped because I did not know how to tag them.

Furthermore, and according to Wikipedia [1], there are whole cities where it 
remains illegal to turn right on a red anywhere, like Montreal and New York.

It is a must for routing...
Daniel

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_turn_on_red


From: James [mailto:james2...@gmail.com]
Sent: June-28-16 15:46
To: Nathan Wessel
Cc: Talk-CA OpenStreetMap
Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] restriction=no_right_turn_on_red causing routing 
problems in Toronto


As andrew said might want to file a bug report with them. Do not map for 
presentation/an application. The application needs to conform to the data
On Jun 28, 2016 3:25 PM, "Nathan Wessel" 
> wrote:

The signs are pretty common, but the tag is not as there are only about 80 of 
them in the GTA and 181 worldwide. I'm wondering if there might be a more 
appropriate way to tag these, instead of tagging them as a restriction? Perhaps 
something like "restriction:signal"="no_turn_on_red", so that it doesn't get 
picked up on a search for the 'restriction' key? I don't think the developers 
are likely to bother checking for such an uncommon tag at this point.



I'm routing with OSRM , which is also used on the 
homepage of openstreetmap.org.


-Nate


From: James >
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2016 3:19:28 PM
To: Nathan Wessel
Cc: Talk-CA OpenStreetMap
Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] restriction=no_right_turn_on_red causing routing 
problems in Toronto


What application were you using to route?
On Jun 28, 2016 2:13 PM, "Nathan Wessel" 
> wrote:

Hi all,

I'm hoping to get some advice on what to do with a relatively uncommon turn 
restriction tag currently in use in Toronto and Ottawa.



https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/restriction=no_right_turn_on_red



There are about 80 of these 'restriction's in the GTA, and I've noticed that 
they are preventing any right turns when I attempt to route using OSRM. I 
posted about this on the restrictions talk page, 
here,
 and someone suggested that because the restriction value starts with 'no_', it 
is, and should be, treated like an absolute restriction which prevents any 
turns from the 'from' way to the 'to' way.



Anyway, I'm hesitant to outright delete these because I presume they contain 
some potentially useful information, but I also need them to stop restricting 
turns so I can use the data for routing. Maybe these should not be 
'restriction's, but something else?



I'd be happy to make the edits if someone can come up with a good suggestion 
here.



Thanks,

Nate Wessel
Jack of all trades, master of geography

1-330-936-2849

Vesalius Design

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Re: [Talk-ca] aerial imagery for missing roads

[Pierre Béland]

Un autre sujet non traité dans courriel précédent
Bornes kilometriques sur les routes forestières
Les services de secours et les routiers utilisent les bornes kilométriques pour 
référence où ils sontex km 150.
Comment pourrions-nous ajouter une telle information à la carte? On peut 
utiliser sur une node highwayhighway=milestonedistance=150  
ref=km 150
Cependant cette info n'apparait pas sur les cartes. Devrions-nous plutôt 
utilisername=km 150 ?  
Pierre 



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Re: [Talk-ca] restriction=no_right_turn_on_red causing routing problems in Toronto

[Begin Daniel]

Whatever the tag or its value, we need it.
There are (unfortunately) plenty of such restrictions in my neighbourhood that 
I never mapped because I did not know how to tag them.

Furthermore, and according to Wikipedia [1], there are whole cities where it 
remains illegal to turn right on a red anywhere, like Montreal and New York.

It is a must for routing…
Daniel

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_turn_on_red


From: James [mailto:james2...@gmail.com]
Sent: June-28-16 15:46
To: Nathan Wessel
Cc: Talk-CA OpenStreetMap
Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] restriction=no_right_turn_on_red causing routing 
problems in Toronto


As andrew said might want to file a bug report with them. Do not map for 
presentation/an application. The application needs to conform to the data
On Jun 28, 2016 3:25 PM, "Nathan Wessel" 
> wrote:

The signs are pretty common, but the tag is not as there are only about 80 of 
them in the GTA and 181 worldwide. I'm wondering if there might be a more 
appropriate way to tag these, instead of tagging them as a restriction? Perhaps 
something like "restriction:signal"="no_turn_on_red", so that it doesn't get 
picked up on a search for the 'restriction' key? I don't think the developers 
are likely to bother checking for such an uncommon tag at this point.



I'm routing with OSRM , which is also used on the 
homepage of openstreetmap.org.


-Nate


From: James >
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2016 3:19:28 PM
To: Nathan Wessel
Cc: Talk-CA OpenStreetMap
Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] restriction=no_right_turn_on_red causing routing 
problems in Toronto


What application were you using to route?
On Jun 28, 2016 2:13 PM, "Nathan Wessel" 
> wrote:

Hi all,

I'm hoping to get some advice on what to do with a relatively uncommon turn 
restriction tag currently in use in Toronto and Ottawa.



https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/restriction=no_right_turn_on_red



There are about 80 of these 'restriction's in the GTA, and I've noticed that 
they are preventing any right turns when I attempt to route using OSRM. I 
posted about this on the restrictions talk page, 
here,
 and someone suggested that because the restriction value starts with 'no_', it 
is, and should be, treated like an absolute restriction which prevents any 
turns from the 'from' way to the 'to' way.



Anyway, I'm hesitant to outright delete these because I presume they contain 
some potentially useful information, but I also need them to stop restricting 
turns so I can use the data for routing. Maybe these should not be 
'restriction's, but something else?



I'd be happy to make the edits if someone can come up with a good suggestion 
here.



Thanks,

Nate Wessel
Jack of all trades, master of geography

1-330-936-2849

Vesalius Design

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Re: [Talk-ca] restriction=no_right_turn_on_red causing routing problems in Toronto

[Nathan Wessel]

But it's not an bug, and the data should conform to established standards. 
Right now, the standard seems to be that restriction values beginning with 
'no_' mean 'no', not 'wait a minute'. Take a look at the wiki page:


http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:restriction#Tags


-Nate


From: James 
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2016 3:45:46 PM
To: Nathan Wessel
Cc: Talk-CA OpenStreetMap
Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] restriction=no_right_turn_on_red causing routing 
problems in Toronto


As andrew said might want to file a bug report with them. Do not map for 
presentation/an application. The application needs to conform to the data

On Jun 28, 2016 3:25 PM, "Nathan Wessel" 
> wrote:

The signs are pretty common, but the tag is not as there are only about 80 of 
them in the GTA and 181 worldwide. I'm wondering if there might be a more 
appropriate way to tag these, instead of tagging them as a restriction? Perhaps 
something like "restriction:signal"="no_turn_on_red", so that it doesn't get 
picked up on a search for the 'restriction' key? I don't think the developers 
are likely to bother checking for such an uncommon tag at this point.


I'm routing with OSRM , which is also used on the 
homepage of openstreetmap.org.


-Nate



From: James >
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2016 3:19:28 PM
To: Nathan Wessel
Cc: Talk-CA OpenStreetMap
Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] restriction=no_right_turn_on_red causing routing 
problems in Toronto


What application were you using to route?

On Jun 28, 2016 2:13 PM, "Nathan Wessel" 
> wrote:

Hi all,

I'm hoping to get some advice on what to do with a relatively uncommon turn 
restriction tag currently in use in Toronto and Ottawa.


https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/restriction=no_right_turn_on_red


There are about 80 of these 'restriction's in the GTA, and I've noticed that 
they are preventing any right turns when I attempt to route using OSRM. I 
posted about this on the restrictions talk page, 
here,
 and someone suggested that because the restriction value starts with 'no_', it 
is, and should be, treated like an absolute restriction which prevents any 
turns from the 'from' way to the 'to' way.


Anyway, I'm hesitant to outright delete these because I presume they contain 
some potentially useful information, but I also need them to stop restricting 
turns so I can use the data for routing. Maybe these should not be 
'restriction's, but something else?


I'd be happy to make the edits if someone can come up with a good suggestion 
here.


Thanks,

Nate Wessel
Jack of all trades, master of geography

1-330-936-2849

Vesalius Design

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Re: [Talk-ca] aerial imagery for missing roads

[Pierre Béland]

Nous devons comme communauté nous préoccuper d'ajouter des infos utiles et que 
nous pourons mettre à jour. Nous devons de structurer, classifier ces infos 
pour qu'elles soient utiles.
À titre d'exemple, au Québec seulement il y a plus de 300,000 km de routes 
forestières (routes principales) et chemins forestiers (chemins de collecte de 
bois accessibles surtout avec équipement spécialisé). Ce réseau est plus 
important que le réseau routier du Ministère des Transports.

Sauf pour quelques excpeptions, le réseau du Ministère des transports est 
classifié de 
1 à 99 Autoroutes100 à 399 (Routes secondaires). 
400 et plus Routes forestières. 

Pour quelques routes forestières on retrouve une double classification qui 
correspond sans doute à ancienne - nouvelle classification 
Route forestière 450 (anciennement 10 ? ) et Route forestière 461 (anciennement 
25 ? )
A noter qu'il existe des autoroutes numérotées 10 et 25.
Les routes forestières sont déja assez bien tracées. 

Par contre, il serait important de s'assurer d'ajouter systématiquement la clé 
ref pour la numérotation des routes. Pour le Québec, je propose d'utiliser la 
nomenclature du Ministère des transports utilisée sur les cartes par région 
administrative et de nommer spécifiquement ces routes Route forestière.

Exemple 
name= Route forestière  400  ref=R0400name= Route forestière  450 
(10)   ref=R0450
name= Route forestière  461 (25)   ref=R0461
name= Route forestière 1009 ref=R1009

Au Québec les routes forestières sont sous la responsabilité du Ministère des 
ressources naturelles. Les cartes routières par région administrative 
contiennent la numérotation des routes forestières.  Vous allez me dire, 
problème de licence. Ces infos sont déja sur Google. Entente spéciale?, les 
cartes interactives du gouvernement du Québec utilisant Google comme carte de 
base. Quelqu'un peut dire si nous avons accès à ces infos avec licence 
compatible OSM?

En ce qui a trait aux chemins forestiers, ceux-ci sont souvent temporaires et 
non entretenus. Le lien ci-dessous montre une carte publiée par la forestière 
Resolute. On voit le dédale de chemins forestiers et les nombreux ponts non 
accessibles. 
http://www.pfresolu.com/uploadedFiles/Sustainability/Forestry_and_Fiber_Sourcing(1)/Certification_by_Operation/Cote-Nord-Chemins_forestiers_UAF09351_Centre-Nord.pdf
 
 
Pierre 


  De : John Marshall 
 À : James ; Talk-CA OpenStreetMap 
 
 Envoyé le : mardi 28 juin 2016 14h39
 Objet : Re: [Talk-ca] aerial imagery for missing roads
   
I agree with James and Michael . How could we prevent logging roads from being 
mapped anyway.All roads should be mapped.  The same would apply to Military 
Bases. Most of the time the public is not allowed on the Base. But there are 
times when the public is allowed on  hunting ect where having the data would be 
useful.John MarshallOn Jun 26, 2016 17:37, "James"  wrote:

I agree with Michael. What happens if fire services need to use that road or 
emergency services like ambulence etc. It should be the application's job to 
determine in which condition a road should or shouldnt be used, not the mappers 
job to obfuscate the map

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Re: [Talk-ca] restriction=no_right_turn_on_red causing routing problems in Toronto

[James]

As andrew said might want to file a bug report with them. Do not map for
presentation/an application. The application needs to conform to the data
On Jun 28, 2016 3:25 PM, "Nathan Wessel" 
wrote:

> The signs are pretty common, but the tag is not as there are only about 80
> of them in the GTA and 181 worldwide. I'm wondering if there might be a
> more appropriate way to tag these, instead of tagging them as a
> restriction? Perhaps something like "restriction:signal"="no_turn_on_red",
> so that it doesn't get picked up on a search for the 'restriction' key? I
> don't think the developers are likely to bother checking for such an
> uncommon tag at this point.
>
>
> I'm routing with OSRM , which is also used on
> the homepage of openstreetmap.org.
>
>
> -Nate
>
> --
> *From:* James 
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 28, 2016 3:19:28 PM
> *To:* Nathan Wessel
> *Cc:* Talk-CA OpenStreetMap
> *Subject:* Re: [Talk-ca] restriction=no_right_turn_on_red causing routing
> problems in Toronto
>
>
> What application were you using to route?
> On Jun 28, 2016 2:13 PM, "Nathan Wessel" 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I'm hoping to get some advice on what to do with a relatively uncommon
>> turn restriction tag currently in use in Toronto and Ottawa.
>>
>>
>> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/restriction=no_right_turn_on_red
>>
>>
>> There are about 80 of these 'restriction's in the GTA, and I've noticed
>> that they are preventing any right turns when I attempt to route using
>> OSRM. I posted about this on the restrictions talk page, here
>> ,
>> and someone suggested that because the restriction value starts with 'no_',
>> it is, and should be, treated like an absolute restriction which prevents
>> any turns from the 'from' way to the 'to' way.
>>
>>
>> Anyway, I'm hesitant to outright delete these because I presume they
>> contain some potentially useful information, but I also need them to stop
>> restricting turns so I can use the data for routing. Maybe these should not
>> be 'restriction's, but something else?
>>
>>
>> I'd be happy to make the edits if someone can come up with a good
>> suggestion here.
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> *Nate Wessel*
>> Jack of all trades, master of geography
>>
>> 1-330-936-2849
>>
>> Vesalius Design 
>>
>> ___
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>>
>>
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Re: [Talk-ca] restriction=no_right_turn_on_red causing routing problems in Toronto

[Nathan Wessel]

The signs are pretty common, but the tag is not as there are only about 80 of 
them in the GTA and 181 worldwide. I'm wondering if there might be a more 
appropriate way to tag these, instead of tagging them as a restriction? Perhaps 
something like "restriction:signal"="no_turn_on_red", so that it doesn't get 
picked up on a search for the 'restriction' key? I don't think the developers 
are likely to bother checking for such an uncommon tag at this point.


I'm routing with OSRM , which is also used on the 
homepage of openstreetmap.org.


-Nate



From: James 
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2016 3:19:28 PM
To: Nathan Wessel
Cc: Talk-CA OpenStreetMap
Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] restriction=no_right_turn_on_red causing routing 
problems in Toronto


What application were you using to route?

On Jun 28, 2016 2:13 PM, "Nathan Wessel" 
> wrote:

Hi all,

I'm hoping to get some advice on what to do with a relatively uncommon turn 
restriction tag currently in use in Toronto and Ottawa.


https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/restriction=no_right_turn_on_red


There are about 80 of these 'restriction's in the GTA, and I've noticed that 
they are preventing any right turns when I attempt to route using OSRM. I 
posted about this on the restrictions talk page, 
here,
 and someone suggested that because the restriction value starts with 'no_', it 
is, and should be, treated like an absolute restriction which prevents any 
turns from the 'from' way to the 'to' way.


Anyway, I'm hesitant to outright delete these because I presume they contain 
some potentially useful information, but I also need them to stop restricting 
turns so I can use the data for routing. Maybe these should not be 
'restriction's, but something else?


I'd be happy to make the edits if someone can come up with a good suggestion 
here.


Thanks,

Nate Wessel
Jack of all trades, master of geography

1-330-936-2849

Vesalius Design

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Re: [Talk-ca] restriction=no_right_turn_on_red causing routing problems in Toronto

[James]

What application were you using to route?
On Jun 28, 2016 2:13 PM, "Nathan Wessel" 
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I'm hoping to get some advice on what to do with a relatively uncommon
> turn restriction tag currently in use in Toronto and Ottawa.
>
>
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/restriction=no_right_turn_on_red
>
>
> There are about 80 of these 'restriction's in the GTA, and I've noticed
> that they are preventing any right turns when I attempt to route using
> OSRM. I posted about this on the restrictions talk page, here
> ,
> and someone suggested that because the restriction value starts with 'no_',
> it is, and should be, treated like an absolute restriction which prevents
> any turns from the 'from' way to the 'to' way.
>
>
> Anyway, I'm hesitant to outright delete these because I presume they
> contain some potentially useful information, but I also need them to stop
> restricting turns so I can use the data for routing. Maybe these should not
> be 'restriction's, but something else?
>
>
> I'd be happy to make the edits if someone can come up with a good
> suggestion here.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> *Nate Wessel*
> Jack of all trades, master of geography
>
> 1-330-936-2849
>
> Vesalius Design 
>
> ___
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>
>
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Re: [Talk-ca] restriction=no_right_turn_on_red causing routing problems in Toronto

[Andrew MacKinnon]

On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 2:11 PM, Nathan Wessel
 wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm hoping to get some advice on what to do with a relatively uncommon turn
> restriction tag currently in use in Toronto and Ottawa.

No right turn on red signs are pretty common. You definitely shouldn't
delete them. This sounds like a bug in the routing software that needs
to fixed.

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Re: [Talk-ca] aerial imagery for missing roads

[John Marshall]

I agree with James and Michael . How could we prevent logging roads from
being mapped anyway.

All roads should be mapped.

The same would apply to Military Bases. Most of the time the public is not
allowed on the Base. But there are times when the public is allowed on
hunting ect where having the data would be useful.

John Marshall
On Jun 26, 2016 17:37, "James"  wrote:

> I agree with Michael. What happens if fire services need to use that road
> or emergency services like ambulence etc. It should be the application's
> job to determine in which condition a road should or shouldnt be used, not
> the mappers job to obfuscate the map
> On Jun 25, 2016 4:01 PM, "Michael Zajac"  wrote:
>
>> The map shows what’s there. Hopefully it can also show private- or
>> public-access status, but its job is not to babysit potential trespassers
>> by keeping parts of the landscape secret.
>>
>>
>> Stewart C. Russell [mailto:scr...@gmail.com] wrote:
>>
>> > Most logging roads, certainly in BC, are private. While they look
>> large, and make tempting additions to the map, accidentally routing traffic
>> along them could be fatal. Logging trucks don't (can't!) stop, and unless
>> you have authorization and the right radio to call in the checkpoints, the
>> controller won't be able to tell you if there's a truck coming that you
>> need to get out of the way of.
>> >
>> > CanVec also mistakenly digitized a bunch of private wind farm access
>> roads in Ontario, such as https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/39334427 .
>> >
>> > While using these might not be life-threatening, it is trespassing to
>> use them.
>>
>> --
>> Michael Zajac
>> http://zajac.ca/
>> +1-204-943-6596
>>
>>
>>
>> > On 2016-06-25, at 13:52, talk-ca-requ...@openstreetmap.org wrote:
>> >
>> > Send Talk-ca mailing list submissions to
>> >   talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
>> >
>> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> >   https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> >   talk-ca-requ...@openstreetmap.org
>> >
>> > You can reach the person managing the list at
>> >   talk-ca-ow...@openstreetmap.org
>> >
>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> > than "Re: Contents of Talk-ca digest..."
>> >
>> >
>> > Today's Topics:
>> >
>> >   1. Re: aerial imagery for missing roads (Alan Richards)
>> >   2. Re: aerial imagery for missing roads (Pierre Béland)
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > Message: 1
>> > Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2016 16:31:42 + (UTC)
>> > From: Alan Richards 
>> > To: Martijn van Exel , Kevin Farrugia
>> >   
>> > Cc: talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
>> > Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] aerial imagery for missing roads
>> > Message-ID:
>> >   <
>> 1311b39aa81e624e.ad0720c3-33a3-4256-87d1-d01909f9b...@mail.outlook.com>
>> >
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> >
>> > Most forest service roads in BC are not private. They may be built by
>> private logging companies and may occasionally be gated, but the majority
>> are on crown land and are open for recreational use. Road conditions vary
>> wildly and roads are often unmaintained if active logging is not in
>> progress in the area.
>> > While I agree that typically these roads should not be used for typical
>> intercity routing, they are often used for recreation, hunting, fishing etc.
>> >
>> > Alan (alarobric)
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sat, Jun 25, 2016 at 7:59 AM -0700, "Martijn van Exel" 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Interesting, that seems to be worth a look! Do you happen to know who
>> these open data people are? Do similar open data groups / people exist in
>> other provinces?
>> > Martijn
>> > On Jun 25, 2016, at 8:16 AM, Kevin Farrugia 
>> wrote:
>> > Morning everyone,
>> > I was looking at information on one of the Province's imagery programs
>> (SWOOP:
>> https://dr6j45jk9xcmk.cloudfront.net/documents/3609/lio-swoop2015-eng-final-2014-05-13.pdf)
>> and I had previously assumed that the imagery was paid for by the province
>> but the rights still owned by the imagery company, which is the case where
>> I work.  However, it looks like they might purchase the imagery outright
>> because it says the imagery is owned by the Queen's Printer, which is the
>> holder of the Crown's copyrights in Ontario.
>> > If that's the case you can try contacting their open data team to see
>> if they can persuade the Ministry of Natural Resources to release the data
>> openly under the Open Government Directive as a WMS/TIFFs or you can lodge
>> a FIPPA request to have it released (I don't know how this affects you or
>> us being able to use it in OSM, however).
>> > You can check out what their imagery looks like here to see if it's
>> 

[Talk-ca] restriction=no_right_turn_on_red causing routing problems in Toronto

[Nathan Wessel]

Hi all,

I'm hoping to get some advice on what to do with a relatively uncommon turn 
restriction tag currently in use in Toronto and Ottawa.


https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/restriction=no_right_turn_on_red


There are about 80 of these 'restriction's in the GTA, and I've noticed that 
they are preventing any right turns when I attempt to route using OSRM. I 
posted about this on the restrictions talk page, 
here,
 and someone suggested that because the restriction value starts with 'no_', it 
is, and should be, treated like an absolute restriction which prevents any 
turns from the 'from' way to the 'to' way.


Anyway, I'm hesitant to outright delete these because I presume they contain 
some potentially useful information, but I also need them to stop restricting 
turns so I can use the data for routing. Maybe these should not be 
'restriction's, but something else?


I'd be happy to make the edits if someone can come up with a good suggestion 
here.


Thanks,

Nate Wessel
Jack of all trades, master of geography

1-330-936-2849

Vesalius Design
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