Re: [Talk-ca] broken forests in eastern Canada

[Alan Richards]

Generally some of the polygons can be later merged across the boundaries
into less square shapes, but it can be complicated and slow work.

Personally, I'm still unclear on whether CanVec importing is still going
on? Is the data still available and updated? Most of what I can find on the
wiki is old and out of date and no one seems to be doing any visible work
there.

On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 11:07 AM, Gordon Dewis  wrote:

> Forest footprints change over time but not that much in most places. The
> problem is that forest polygons can quickly end up with thousands of points
> and have the added complexity of holes.
>
> There is value to having them in OSM, we just have to find a better way to
> do them, or live with "seams" at the edges of Canvec tiles.
>
>
> On Aug 25, 2016, 13:09 -0400, Stewart C. Russell ,
> wrote:
>
> On 2016-08-25 04:53 AM, Adam Martin wrote:
>
>
> … The polygons will need to be either merged
> or redrawn to conform with the underlying land use.
>
>
> Or, dare I suggest, deleted completely. If they take a huge amount of
> work to fix and they add little value by being based on elderly data, I
> question their need to be in OSM.
>
> I know it's considered politically inexpedient to have huge blank areas
> in your country's map: it gives ambitious neighbours expansionist ideas.
> You can't find anything interesting in these polygons, and they don't
> help you to find anything, either. Maybe we should just have the legend
> “hic sunt sciuri”* every few square kilometres instead?
>
> cheers,
> Stewart
>
> *: “here be squirrels”
>
> ___
> Talk-ca mailing list
> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>
>
> ___
> Talk-ca mailing list
> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>
>
___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca

Re: [Talk-ca] broken forests in eastern Canada

[Gordon Dewis]

Forest footprints change over time but not that much in most places. The 
problem is that forest polygons can quickly end up with thousands of points and 
have the added complexity of holes.

There is value to having them in OSM, we just have to find a better way to do 
them, or live with "seams" at the edges of Canvec tiles.

On Aug 25, 2016, 13:09 -0400, Stewart C. Russell , wrote:
> On 2016-08-25 04:53 AM, Adam Martin wrote:
> >
> > … The polygons will need to be either merged
> > or redrawn to conform with the underlying land use.
>
> Or, dare I suggest, deleted completely. If they take a huge amount of
> work to fix and they add little value by being based on elderly data, I
> question their need to be in OSM.
>
> I know it's considered politically inexpedient to have huge blank areas
> in your country's map: it gives ambitious neighbours expansionist ideas.
> You can't find anything interesting in these polygons, and they don't
> help you to find anything, either. Maybe we should just have the legend
> “hic sunt sciuri”* every few square kilometres instead?
>
> cheers,
> Stewart
>
> *: “here be squirrels”
>
> ___
> Talk-ca mailing list
> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca

Re: [Talk-ca] broken forests in eastern Canada

[Stewart C. Russell]

On 2016-08-25 04:53 AM, Adam Martin wrote:
>
> … The polygons will need to be either merged
> or redrawn to conform with the underlying land use.

Or, dare I suggest, deleted completely. If they take a huge amount of
work to fix and they add little value by being based on elderly data, I
question their need to be in OSM.

I know it's considered politically inexpedient to have huge blank areas
in your country's map: it gives ambitious neighbours expansionist ideas.
You can't find anything interesting in these polygons, and they don't
help you to find anything, either. Maybe we should just have the legend
“hic sunt sciuri”* every few square kilometres instead?

cheers,
 Stewart

*: “here be squirrels”

___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca

Re: [Talk-ca] broken forests in eastern Canada

[James]

Yeah forests are not an easy task to handle, I've been trying to tackle
this from time to time in rural areas as to no put a forest in the city,
but it's a long process as you need to validate a lot of things before you
can upload a small portion of land.

I've tackled a few today:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/41689490
http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/41689128
http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/41688785

On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 10:13 AM, Gordon Dewis  wrote:

> Alan is right. I've brought in a few tiles worth of forests from Canvec in
> the area you're talking about, but they were non-trivial to deal with
> compared to most other features. I kept running into limits in the tools I
> was using at the time and I haven't returned to them since.
>
>   --Gordon (Keeper of Maps)
>
> On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 1:19 AM, Alan Richards 
> wrote:
>
>> I believe these are the result of importing Canvec landuse data for some
>> areas and not for others. Because the data is in square chunks, you end up
>> with these unnatural looking squares on the map. Really it's just a case of
>> the other areas don't have detail yet.
>>
>> Across the border it looks like the US just has parks and national
>> forests, etc. mapped, and not the general natural=forest that you see
>> across Canada.
>>
>> Alan (alarobric)
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 2:04 PM, Antoine Beaupré > > wrote:
>>
>>> hi everyone (allo tout le monde!!)
>>>
>>> one of the most frustrating experiences I have with Openstreetmap in
>>> Canada is this ugly forest display:
>>>
>>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=8/45.227/-73.916
>>>
>>> Just compare how the forests and parks are mapped between the US and
>>> Canada. On our side of the border, you got huge chunks of square forests
>>> that definitely do not reflect the current reality, whereas down south
>>> you clearly see national parks, forests and no weird square things.
>>>
>>> I don't really understand how this happened, but it's been there a long
>>> time. I feel it's some Canvec import that went wrong, but it's been
>>> there for so long that it seems people just forgot about it or moved on.
>>>
>>> I looked around in the .qc and .ca wiki pages and couldn't find anything
>>> about it, so I figured I would bring that up here (again?).
>>>
>>> Are there any plans to fix this? How would one go around fixing this
>>> anyways?
>>>
>>> In particular, I'm curious to hear if people would know how to import
>>> *all* the park limits in Québec. It seems those are better mapped in
>>> Ontario, and I can't imagine those wore drawn by hand..
>>>
>>> Thanks for any feedback (and please CC me, I'm not on the list).
>>>
>>> A.
>>>
>>> --
>>> We will create a civilization of the Mind in Cyberspace. May it be more
>>> humane and fair than the world your governments have made before.
>>> - John Perry Barlow, 1996
>>> A Declaration of Independence of Cyberspace
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Talk-ca mailing list
>>> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Talk-ca mailing list
>> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>>
>>
>
> ___
> Talk-ca mailing list
> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>
>


-- 
外に遊びに行こう！
___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca

Re: [Talk-ca] broken forests in eastern Canada

[Gordon Dewis]

Alan is right. I've brought in a few tiles worth of forests from Canvec in
the area you're talking about, but they were non-trivial to deal with
compared to most other features. I kept running into limits in the tools I
was using at the time and I haven't returned to them since.

  --Gordon (Keeper of Maps)

On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 1:19 AM, Alan Richards  wrote:

> I believe these are the result of importing Canvec landuse data for some
> areas and not for others. Because the data is in square chunks, you end up
> with these unnatural looking squares on the map. Really it's just a case of
> the other areas don't have detail yet.
>
> Across the border it looks like the US just has parks and national
> forests, etc. mapped, and not the general natural=forest that you see
> across Canada.
>
> Alan (alarobric)
>
> On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 2:04 PM, Antoine Beaupré 
> wrote:
>
>> hi everyone (allo tout le monde!!)
>>
>> one of the most frustrating experiences I have with Openstreetmap in
>> Canada is this ugly forest display:
>>
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=8/45.227/-73.916
>>
>> Just compare how the forests and parks are mapped between the US and
>> Canada. On our side of the border, you got huge chunks of square forests
>> that definitely do not reflect the current reality, whereas down south
>> you clearly see national parks, forests and no weird square things.
>>
>> I don't really understand how this happened, but it's been there a long
>> time. I feel it's some Canvec import that went wrong, but it's been
>> there for so long that it seems people just forgot about it or moved on.
>>
>> I looked around in the .qc and .ca wiki pages and couldn't find anything
>> about it, so I figured I would bring that up here (again?).
>>
>> Are there any plans to fix this? How would one go around fixing this
>> anyways?
>>
>> In particular, I'm curious to hear if people would know how to import
>> *all* the park limits in Québec. It seems those are better mapped in
>> Ontario, and I can't imagine those wore drawn by hand..
>>
>> Thanks for any feedback (and please CC me, I'm not on the list).
>>
>> A.
>>
>> --
>> We will create a civilization of the Mind in Cyberspace. May it be more
>> humane and fair than the world your governments have made before.
>> - John Perry Barlow, 1996
>> A Declaration of Independence of Cyberspace
>>
>> ___
>> Talk-ca mailing list
>> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>>
>
>
> ___
> Talk-ca mailing list
> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>
>
___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca

Re: [Talk-ca] broken forests in eastern Canada

[Begin Daniel]

Bon points Jean-Denis,
Les descriptions techniques aident souvent. Dans les cas où j’ai utilisé cette 
source de données, elle référait souvent aux lotissements mais la carte des 
lotissements (matrice graphique) ne peut être utilisée dans OSM (licences).
L’autorisation expresse du/des Ministère(s) concerné(s) serait parfaite! On 
peut toujours espérer …

Bonne chance Antoine
Daniel

From: Jean-Denis Giguere [mailto:jdenisgigu...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, 25 August, 2016 08:18
To: Antoine Beaupré
Cc: talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] broken forests in eastern Canada

Bonjour Antoine,

Pour la limite des parcs, les descriptions techniques des délimitations font 
partie des règlements sur l’établissement des parcs nationaux [1]. Il y a là 
des repères susceptibles d'aider à leur cartographie.
Une autre alternative consisterait à transmettre une demande au Ministère des 
Forêts, de la Faune et des Parcs pour obtenir les données géospatiales de leur 
délimitation avec l'autorisation expresse d'intégrer les données dans 
OpenStreetMap.


Salutations cordiales,


Jean-Denis


[1] Voir par exemple, http://legisquebec.gouv.qc.ca/fr/ShowDoc/cr/P-9,%20r.%201

2016-08-16 17:04 GMT-04:00 Antoine Beaupré 
>:
hi everyone (allo tout le monde!!)

one of the most frustrating experiences I have with Openstreetmap in
Canada is this ugly forest display:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=8/45.227/-73.916

Just compare how the forests and parks are mapped between the US and
Canada. On our side of the border, you got huge chunks of square forests
that definitely do not reflect the current reality, whereas down south
you clearly see national parks, forests and no weird square things.

I don't really understand how this happened, but it's been there a long
time. I feel it's some Canvec import that went wrong, but it's been
there for so long that it seems people just forgot about it or moved on.

I looked around in the .qc and .ca wiki pages and couldn't find anything
about it, so I figured I would bring that up here (again?).

Are there any plans to fix this? How would one go around fixing this
anyways?

In particular, I'm curious to hear if people would know how to import
*all* the park limits in Québec. It seems those are better mapped in
Ontario, and I can't imagine those wore drawn by hand..

Thanks for any feedback (and please CC me, I'm not on the list).

A.

--
We will create a civilization of the Mind in Cyberspace. May it be more
humane and fair than the world your governments have made before.
- John Perry Barlow, 1996
A Declaration of Independence of Cyberspace

___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca

___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca

Re: [Talk-ca] broken forests in eastern Canada

[Jean-Denis Giguere]

Bonjour Antoine,

Pour la limite des parcs, les descriptions techniques des délimitations
font partie des règlements sur l’établissement des parcs nationaux [1]. Il
y a là des repères susceptibles d'aider à leur cartographie.
Une autre alternative consisterait à transmettre une demande au Ministère
des Forêts, de la Faune et des Parcs pour obtenir les données géospatiales
de leur délimitation avec l'autorisation expresse d'intégrer les données
dans OpenStreetMap.


Salutations cordiales,


Jean-Denis


[1] Voir par exemple,
http://legisquebec.gouv.qc.ca/fr/ShowDoc/cr/P-9,%20r.%201

2016-08-16 17:04 GMT-04:00 Antoine Beaupré :

> hi everyone (allo tout le monde!!)
>
> one of the most frustrating experiences I have with Openstreetmap in
> Canada is this ugly forest display:
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=8/45.227/-73.916
>
> Just compare how the forests and parks are mapped between the US and
> Canada. On our side of the border, you got huge chunks of square forests
> that definitely do not reflect the current reality, whereas down south
> you clearly see national parks, forests and no weird square things.
>
> I don't really understand how this happened, but it's been there a long
> time. I feel it's some Canvec import that went wrong, but it's been
> there for so long that it seems people just forgot about it or moved on.
>
> I looked around in the .qc and .ca wiki pages and couldn't find anything
> about it, so I figured I would bring that up here (again?).
>
> Are there any plans to fix this? How would one go around fixing this
> anyways?
>
> In particular, I'm curious to hear if people would know how to import
> *all* the park limits in Québec. It seems those are better mapped in
> Ontario, and I can't imagine those wore drawn by hand..
>
> Thanks for any feedback (and please CC me, I'm not on the list).
>
> A.
>
> --
> We will create a civilization of the Mind in Cyberspace. May it be more
> humane and fair than the world your governments have made before.
> - John Perry Barlow, 1996
> A Declaration of Independence of Cyberspace
>
> ___
> Talk-ca mailing list
> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>
___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca

Re: [Talk-ca] broken forests in eastern Canada

[Begin Daniel]

Bonjour Antoine,

Pour ajouter aux commentaires d'Alan et d'Adam.

Pour ce qui est de la forêt...
Comparer la forêt US/Canada est un peu injuste.  En général, la forêt n'est pas 
cartographiée du côté US, et elle a été partiellement importée du côté canadien 
- d'où les vides de forme rectangulaire...
Corriger toute la forêt du côté canadien voudrait dire importer ce qui manque 
via Canvec et ce serait possiblement problématique...
Corriger localement de façon manuel est possible. J'ai déjà corrigé plusieurs 
centaines de Km2 de 'trous' au nord et à l'est de Sainte-Agathe-des-Monts. Les 
trous qui apparaissent encore dans cette zone ont été causés  par la suite par 
des éditeurs qui ne sont pas familiers avec les multipolygon.

Pour ce qui est des parcs nationaux du Québec...
Je ne connais pas de sources de données qui permettent l'import légal des 
limites de parc au Québec. 
J'ai ajouté quelques limites de parc dans OSM (Yamaska, Frontenac. Mégantic et 
Bic). Je connaissais bien ces endroits et je me suis servi  de documents 
touristiques pour guider ma photo-interprétation - on ne doit pas copier les 
cartes. Une fois qu'on a compris le territoire, la démarcation visuelle entre 
les terres protégées/non protégées sur les images est généralement asses 
simple, mais j'ajoute quand même une note pour signifier que les  limites sont 
approximatives. 

Daniel


-Original Message-
From: Antoine Beaupré [mailto:anar...@orangeseeds.org] 
Sent: Tuesday, 16 August, 2016 17:05
To: talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
Subject: [Talk-ca] broken forests in eastern Canada

hi everyone (allo tout le monde!!)

one of the most frustrating experiences I have with Openstreetmap in Canada is 
this ugly forest display:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=8/45.227/-73.916

Just compare how the forests and parks are mapped between the US and Canada. On 
our side of the border, you got huge chunks of square forests that definitely 
do not reflect the current reality, whereas down south you clearly see national 
parks, forests and no weird square things.

I don't really understand how this happened, but it's been there a long time. I 
feel it's some Canvec import that went wrong, but it's been there for so long 
that it seems people just forgot about it or moved on.

I looked around in the .qc and .ca wiki pages and couldn't find anything about 
it, so I figured I would bring that up here (again?).

Are there any plans to fix this? How would one go around fixing this anyways?

In particular, I'm curious to hear if people would know how to import
*all* the park limits in Québec. It seems those are better mapped in Ontario, 
and I can't imagine those wore drawn by hand..

Thanks for any feedback (and please CC me, I'm not on the list).

A.

--
We will create a civilization of the Mind in Cyberspace. May it be more humane 
and fair than the world your governments have made before.
- John Perry Barlow, 1996
A Declaration of Independence of Cyberspace

___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca

[Talk-ca] New or updated satellite images open source in Manitoba

[Florin Badita]

Hello all
First, sorry for writing in English, my french is not so good.

While trying to add missing roads in osm that we have detected,
i found a lot of areas where you cannot find either hires images or you find 
images that are to old to see the new road that was created.
I know that Martijn asked some weeks ago kind of the same question, but i was 
curious if you know something special for Manitoba.

For example here

http://improve-osm.org/#56.3251041,-94.9925995,11/layer=ESRI/OPEN/true,1-0-0/true,1-0-0-0-0/true,1-0

Do you have any idea if there is something open that we can use for mapping or 
is something that we need to wait until Bing or Mapbox will have hires, newer 
images.

Thanks,

Florin Badita
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/baditaflorin/diary

___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca

Re: [Talk-ca] broken forests in eastern Canada

[Adam Martin]

Both of your instincts on the matter are correct - these polygons are the
result of CANVEC data imports and has to do with how that data is packaged
for distribution by Natural Resources. If you go to the CANVEC site, click
on the map, and zoom to an address, you eventually get to the level where
the data is divided into discreet blocks. This is partially to manage the
size of the shape files that make up this data (they can be quite large).

This isn't an issue for items like roads or features that fit within one of
these areas. But if a feature crosses a boundary, then it is split by the
shape files. These forest polygons are divided exactly along these shape
dividers.

These polygons do not have a high level of percision, but I don't believe
they were ever really meant to. There is only so much detail that the
CANVEC files can have. These shape are also, in some cases, quite old. Some
surveys by Natural Resources are more that thirty years old with no need to
really update them.

As to why they haven't been fixed? It's not that we've ignored these blocks
or their accuracy. Rather, it's more a matter of priority. Most mappers are
busy with major settlements and other human inhabited areas. Most of these
blocks are in areas with little human activity. As making efforts progress,
these blocks will probably get addressed, but as you can imagine, it's a
big task. The polygons will need to be either merged or redrawn to conform
with the underlying land use.

Adam

On Aug 25, 2016 2:50 AM, "Alan Richards"  wrote:

> I believe these are the result of importing Canvec landuse data for some
> areas and not for others. Because the data is in square chunks, you end up
> with these unnatural looking squares on the map. Really it's just a case of
> the other areas don't have detail yet.
>
> Across the border it looks like the US just has parks and national
> forests, etc. mapped, and not the general natural=forest that you see
> across Canada.
>
> Alan (alarobric)
>
> On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 2:04 PM, Antoine Beaupré 
> wrote:
>
>> hi everyone (allo tout le monde!!)
>>
>> one of the most frustrating experiences I have with Openstreetmap in
>> Canada is this ugly forest display:
>>
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=8/45.227/-73.916
>>
>> Just compare how the forests and parks are mapped between the US and
>> Canada. On our side of the border, you got huge chunks of square forests
>> that definitely do not reflect the current reality, whereas down south
>> you clearly see national parks, forests and no weird square things.
>>
>> I don't really understand how this happened, but it's been there a long
>> time. I feel it's some Canvec import that went wrong, but it's been
>> there for so long that it seems people just forgot about it or moved on.
>>
>> I looked around in the .qc and .ca wiki pages and couldn't find anything
>> about it, so I figured I would bring that up here (again?).
>>
>> Are there any plans to fix this? How would one go around fixing this
>> anyways?
>>
>> In particular, I'm curious to hear if people would know how to import
>> *all* the park limits in Québec. It seems those are better mapped in
>> Ontario, and I can't imagine those wore drawn by hand..
>>
>> Thanks for any feedback (and please CC me, I'm not on the list).
>>
>> A.
>>
>> --
>> We will create a civilization of the Mind in Cyberspace. May it be more
>> humane and fair than the world your governments have made before.
>> - John Perry Barlow, 1996
>> A Declaration of Independence of Cyberspace
>>
>> ___
>> Talk-ca mailing list
>> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>>
>
>
> ___
> Talk-ca mailing list
> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>
>
___
Talk-ca mailing list
Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca