Re: [Talk-ca] Let's map missing turn restrictions in Canada

[Nathan Wessel]

Ah, yes. I was working with others to get all these restrictions changed, and 
some of the ones I didn't do myself ended up not quite right. It should be 
"type"="restriction:on_red", "restriction:on_red"="no_right_turn", at least to 
be consistent with the way I was doing it. It looks like this one is still 
being interpreted incorrectly by OSRM as a "no_" restriction. I'll correct it.


-Nate


From: Stewart C. Russell <scr...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2016 10:34:20 AM
To: talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] Let's map missing turn restrictions in Canada

On 2016-07-20 02:32 PM, Nathan Wessel wrote:
>
> Someone
> on the tagging list suggested changing these to
> "restriction:on_red"="no_right_turn", which is what I recently did for
> all such restrictions that I could find in greater Toronto.

Is this one?

https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/5652797

It has "restriction"="on_red=no_right_turn", which looks like a tag
within a tag, and this doesn't sit right.

It would be nice if turn restrictions appeared on the main map, but
that's Hard Work(tm).

cheers,
 Stewart

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Re: [Talk-ca] Let's map missing turn restrictions in Canada

[Nathan Wessel]

This is great news!


I do have one suggestion for y'all: there are a number of turn restriction 
relations with "restriction"="no_right_turn_on_red", now mostly in Ottawa, with 
a few in Montreal. These were causing problems with a couple different routing 
engines (OSRM, OpenTripPlanner). Someone on the tagging list suggested changing 
these to "restriction:on_red"="no_right_turn", which is what I recently did for 
all such restrictions that I could find in greater Toronto. That gets them out 
of the "restriction" tag I guess, and at least they aren't causing problems 
now. They had been preventing all right turns, as was the expected behavior per 
the wiki.


Just something to watch out for! (and hopefully not to create any more of, 
unless the tagging changes)


Cheers,
Nate


From: Jinal Foflia 
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2016 12:52:15 PM
To: talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
Subject: [Talk-ca] Let's map missing turn restrictions in Canada


Hello everyone,

In a collective effort to improve OpenStreetMap, Mapbox's Data team is working 
on improving Navigation in top 5 Canadian Cities [1]. We have built an easy 
tool to ease our efforts in mapping turn restrictions.

We would love to have the community to try this tool and share their thoughts 
and ideas on on our existing workflow on how to make it better. Here's a diary 
post [2] with more details. Looking forward to work together and make 
OpenStreetMap the best!


[1] - https://github.com/mapbox/mapping/issues/213

[2] - http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/manoharuss/diary/39088


Thank you!

Cheers,
Jinal Foflia
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Re: [Talk-ca] restriction=no_right_turn_on_red causing routing problems in Toronto

[Nathan Wessel]

I've asked about this over on the tagging list as well, in case anyone wants to 
follow the conversation there. I've been getting mixed messages on this issue 
so far... at the least if the tag is kept as-is and OSRM fixed, the restriction 
wiki page should be changed to acknowledge the possibility of turns on 
relations beginning with 'no_'.


Cheers,

Nate


From: Stewart C. Russell <scr...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2016 11:33:53 AM
To: talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] restriction=no_right_turn_on_red causing routing 
problems in Toronto

On 2016-06-28 04:19 PM, Nathan Wessel wrote:
> It seems like conditional restrictions may be what we need.
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Conditional_restrictions
>
> But it looks like we would be forging new ground if we went that
> direction. I don't see anything on that page about signals of any kind.
> (yet!)

OSRM seems to be programmatically narrow in its insistence on only
scanning the 'no_' part of the restriction. These are useful and clear
tags. Fix OSRM, not the map. Relations are already complex enough that
many mappers avoid them.

Coming from a country where the whole idea of turning on red is illegal
(and all pedestrian crossings are scramble crossings, as they should be)
I wonder if this is just a black swan to the developers?

cheers,
 Stewart


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Re: [Talk-ca] restriction=no_right_turn_on_red causing routing problems in Toronto

[Nathan Wessel]

It seems like conditional restrictions may be what we need.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Conditional_restrictions

But it looks like we would be forging new ground if we went that direction. I 
don't see anything on that page about signals of any kind. (yet!)


-Nate


From: Begin Daniel <jfd...@hotmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2016 4:07:15 PM
To: James; Nathan Wessel
Cc: Talk-CA OpenStreetMap
Subject: RE: [Talk-ca] restriction=no_right_turn_on_red causing routing 
problems in Toronto

Whatever the tag or its value, we need it.
There are (unfortunately) plenty of such restrictions in my neighbourhood that 
I never mapped because I did not know how to tag them.

Furthermore, and according to Wikipedia [1], there are whole cities where it 
remains illegal to turn right on a red anywhere, like Montreal and New York.

It is a must for routing...
Daniel

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_turn_on_red


From: James [mailto:james2...@gmail.com]
Sent: June-28-16 15:46
To: Nathan Wessel
Cc: Talk-CA OpenStreetMap
Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] restriction=no_right_turn_on_red causing routing 
problems in Toronto


As andrew said might want to file a bug report with them. Do not map for 
presentation/an application. The application needs to conform to the data
On Jun 28, 2016 3:25 PM, "Nathan Wessel" 
<nate.wes...@mail.utoronto.ca<mailto:nate.wes...@mail.utoronto.ca>> wrote:

The signs are pretty common, but the tag is not as there are only about 80 of 
them in the GTA and 181 worldwide. I'm wondering if there might be a more 
appropriate way to tag these, instead of tagging them as a restriction? Perhaps 
something like "restriction:signal"="no_turn_on_red", so that it doesn't get 
picked up on a search for the 'restriction' key? I don't think the developers 
are likely to bother checking for such an uncommon tag at this point.



I'm routing with OSRM <http://project-osrm.org/>, which is also used on the 
homepage of openstreetmap.org<http://openstreetmap.org>.


-Nate


From: James <james2...@gmail.com<mailto:james2...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2016 3:19:28 PM
To: Nathan Wessel
Cc: Talk-CA OpenStreetMap
Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] restriction=no_right_turn_on_red causing routing 
problems in Toronto


What application were you using to route?
On Jun 28, 2016 2:13 PM, "Nathan Wessel" 
<nate.wes...@mail.utoronto.ca<mailto:nate.wes...@mail.utoronto.ca>> wrote:

Hi all,

I'm hoping to get some advice on what to do with a relatively uncommon turn 
restriction tag currently in use in Toronto and Ottawa.



https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/restriction=no_right_turn_on_red



There are about 80 of these 'restriction's in the GTA, and I've noticed that 
they are preventing any right turns when I attempt to route using OSRM. I 
posted about this on the restrictions talk page, 
here<http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Relation:restriction#No_Turn_On_Red>,
 and someone suggested that because the restriction value starts with 'no_', it 
is, and should be, treated like an absolute restriction which prevents any 
turns from the 'from' way to the 'to' way.



Anyway, I'm hesitant to outright delete these because I presume they contain 
some potentially useful information, but I also need them to stop restricting 
turns so I can use the data for routing. Maybe these should not be 
'restriction's, but something else?



I'd be happy to make the edits if someone can come up with a good suggestion 
here.



Thanks,

Nate Wessel
Jack of all trades, master of geography

1-330-936-2849

Vesalius Design<http://www.vesaliusdesign.com>

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Re: [Talk-ca] restriction=no_right_turn_on_red causing routing problems in Toronto

[Nathan Wessel]

But it's not an bug, and the data should conform to established standards. 
Right now, the standard seems to be that restriction values beginning with 
'no_' mean 'no', not 'wait a minute'. Take a look at the wiki page:


http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:restriction#Tags


-Nate


From: James <james2...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2016 3:45:46 PM
To: Nathan Wessel
Cc: Talk-CA OpenStreetMap
Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] restriction=no_right_turn_on_red causing routing 
problems in Toronto


As andrew said might want to file a bug report with them. Do not map for 
presentation/an application. The application needs to conform to the data

On Jun 28, 2016 3:25 PM, "Nathan Wessel" 
<nate.wes...@mail.utoronto.ca<mailto:nate.wes...@mail.utoronto.ca>> wrote:

The signs are pretty common, but the tag is not as there are only about 80 of 
them in the GTA and 181 worldwide. I'm wondering if there might be a more 
appropriate way to tag these, instead of tagging them as a restriction? Perhaps 
something like "restriction:signal"="no_turn_on_red", so that it doesn't get 
picked up on a search for the 'restriction' key? I don't think the developers 
are likely to bother checking for such an uncommon tag at this point.


I'm routing with OSRM <http://project-osrm.org/>, which is also used on the 
homepage of openstreetmap.org<http://openstreetmap.org>.


-Nate



From: James <james2...@gmail.com<mailto:james2...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2016 3:19:28 PM
To: Nathan Wessel
Cc: Talk-CA OpenStreetMap
Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] restriction=no_right_turn_on_red causing routing 
problems in Toronto


What application were you using to route?

On Jun 28, 2016 2:13 PM, "Nathan Wessel" 
<nate.wes...@mail.utoronto.ca<mailto:nate.wes...@mail.utoronto.ca>> wrote:

Hi all,

I'm hoping to get some advice on what to do with a relatively uncommon turn 
restriction tag currently in use in Toronto and Ottawa.


https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/restriction=no_right_turn_on_red


There are about 80 of these 'restriction's in the GTA, and I've noticed that 
they are preventing any right turns when I attempt to route using OSRM. I 
posted about this on the restrictions talk page, 
here<http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Relation:restriction#No_Turn_On_Red>,
 and someone suggested that because the restriction value starts with 'no_', it 
is, and should be, treated like an absolute restriction which prevents any 
turns from the 'from' way to the 'to' way.


Anyway, I'm hesitant to outright delete these because I presume they contain 
some potentially useful information, but I also need them to stop restricting 
turns so I can use the data for routing. Maybe these should not be 
'restriction's, but something else?


I'd be happy to make the edits if someone can come up with a good suggestion 
here.


Thanks,

Nate Wessel
Jack of all trades, master of geography

1-330-936-2849

Vesalius Design<http://www.vesaliusdesign.com>

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Re: [Talk-ca] restriction=no_right_turn_on_red causing routing problems in Toronto

[Nathan Wessel]

The signs are pretty common, but the tag is not as there are only about 80 of 
them in the GTA and 181 worldwide. I'm wondering if there might be a more 
appropriate way to tag these, instead of tagging them as a restriction? Perhaps 
something like "restriction:signal"="no_turn_on_red", so that it doesn't get 
picked up on a search for the 'restriction' key? I don't think the developers 
are likely to bother checking for such an uncommon tag at this point.


I'm routing with OSRM <http://project-osrm.org/>, which is also used on the 
homepage of openstreetmap.org.


-Nate



From: James <james2...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2016 3:19:28 PM
To: Nathan Wessel
Cc: Talk-CA OpenStreetMap
Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] restriction=no_right_turn_on_red causing routing 
problems in Toronto


What application were you using to route?

On Jun 28, 2016 2:13 PM, "Nathan Wessel" 
<nate.wes...@mail.utoronto.ca<mailto:nate.wes...@mail.utoronto.ca>> wrote:

Hi all,

I'm hoping to get some advice on what to do with a relatively uncommon turn 
restriction tag currently in use in Toronto and Ottawa.


https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/restriction=no_right_turn_on_red


There are about 80 of these 'restriction's in the GTA, and I've noticed that 
they are preventing any right turns when I attempt to route using OSRM. I 
posted about this on the restrictions talk page, 
here<http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Relation:restriction#No_Turn_On_Red>,
 and someone suggested that because the restriction value starts with 'no_', it 
is, and should be, treated like an absolute restriction which prevents any 
turns from the 'from' way to the 'to' way.


Anyway, I'm hesitant to outright delete these because I presume they contain 
some potentially useful information, but I also need them to stop restricting 
turns so I can use the data for routing. Maybe these should not be 
'restriction's, but something else?


I'd be happy to make the edits if someone can come up with a good suggestion 
here.


Thanks,

Nate Wessel
Jack of all trades, master of geography

1-330-936-2849

Vesalius Design<http://www.vesaliusdesign.com>

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[Talk-ca] restriction=no_right_turn_on_red causing routing problems in Toronto

[Nathan Wessel]

Hi all,

I'm hoping to get some advice on what to do with a relatively uncommon turn 
restriction tag currently in use in Toronto and Ottawa.


https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/restriction=no_right_turn_on_red


There are about 80 of these 'restriction's in the GTA, and I've noticed that 
they are preventing any right turns when I attempt to route using OSRM. I 
posted about this on the restrictions talk page, 
here,
 and someone suggested that because the restriction value starts with 'no_', it 
is, and should be, treated like an absolute restriction which prevents any 
turns from the 'from' way to the 'to' way.


Anyway, I'm hesitant to outright delete these because I presume they contain 
some potentially useful information, but I also need them to stop restricting 
turns so I can use the data for routing. Maybe these should not be 
'restriction's, but something else?


I'd be happy to make the edits if someone can come up with a good suggestion 
here.


Thanks,

Nate Wessel
Jack of all trades, master of geography

1-330-936-2849

Vesalius Design
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