Re: [Talk-ca] Community Conduct

[Stewart C. Russell]

I know that the issue is settled and the affected edits based on
Carleton's data have been reverted, but I got this response from their
GIS and Digital Resources Librarian today:

… the air photos are not permitted for use other
than academic use, and OpenStreetMap does not qualify. …

… due to the license agreement [the Carleton data user]
signed in order to access the data, s/he is liable if the
City of Ottawa takes issue with the data usage. We did not
collect the data but the City provides it to us for
academic use only.

Happy mapping,
 Stewart


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Re: [Talk-ca] Community Conduct

[James]

Stewart, after re-reading what you posted, it seems to be about the imagery
and not derived works. Aka, you cant sell the imagery, use it for finacial
gain(duh), but says nothing about derivative works from which I was told
was allowed. Clairification would be in order indeed.

On Dec 22, 2016 8:11 PM, "Stewart C. Russell"  wrote:

> On 2016-12-22 07:47 PM, James wrote:
> > From what was told to me at the school,  Stewart, you are allowed to
> > create derivative work/tracing, but not distribute the imagery.
>
> You may be able to create derivative work, but solely for teaching or
> academic purposes. The most recent Carleton University Data Use
> Agreement I can find
> ( DataUseAgreement.pdf>)
> says:
>
>   I am affiliated with Carleton University as a current
>   faculty member, student or staff member and I agree to
>   abide by the terms of the University’s contractual
>   obligations to the owner of the data. Data obtained
>   by this agreement is protected by copyright and remain
>   the property of the data producer. I understand that:
>
>   * The data provided to me is for the exclusive purposes
>   of teaching or academic research while I am a member
>   of the Carleton University community and may not be
>   used for any other purposes without the explicit prior
>   written approval of the owner of the data.
>
>   * I am prohibited from using these data products in
>   the pursuit of any commercial or income-generating
>   venture either privately, with government, or under
>   the auspices of Carleton University.
>
>   * The data is released to me as a working copy for my
>   use only. The distribution, sale, donation, transfer,
>   sharing or exchange of any portion of these data in
>   any way is expressly prohibited.
>
>   * The data is accepted ”as is”, and that the
>   owner makes no representations or warranties, either
>   expressed or implied, as to the appropriateness and
>   fitness for a particular purpose.
>
>   * All publications, paper printouts, or manuscripts
>   containing the data must acknowledge explicitly the
>   owner of the data.
>
>   * Licensed downloaded data files must be erased
>   upon the completion of my research project, course
>   assignment, or thesis work.
>
>   * Use of the data may be subject to audit by the data
>   producer; so that in the event of audits, my use of
>   the data may be disclosed to the producer.
>
>   Data covered by this agreement:
>
>   Data listed below is stored on the Library GIS network
>   and is available only to Carleton University students,
>   faculty and staff upon presentation of current
>   university identification.
>
>   Licenced data include files from agencies of the
>   Government of Canada, the Government of Ontario,
>   the Government of Quebec, cities of Ottawa, Hamilton,
>   London and Niagara, commercial providers such as DMTI,
>   Teranet, and Landlnfo, and any other data providers
>   which require authenticated access. A full list of
>   data providers is available on the GIS website.
>
> I would say that this unequivocally prevents the data being used as an
> OSM source. Again, I ask you to refrain from using it until the licence
> is clarified by the Carleton library.
>
> Best Wishes,
>  Stewart
>
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Re: [Talk-ca] Community Conduct

[Pierre Béland]

Eh assez de problèmes comme cela. Permettez moi de dévier un peu cette 
discussion et parler d'autres problèmes qui me préoccupent davantage.
J'arrive de Jérémie, Haiti où la situation est toujours critique 10 semaines 
après l'ouragan Matthew.  Tout est cassé à Jérémie, les maisons, les écoles, 
les églises, les espoirs. En montagne, plusieurs villages isolées n'ont pas 
reçu d'aide et les problèmes de santé sont criants.

Un article du Journal Le Monde montre bien la situation problématique pour les 
populations dans les montagnes des départements de Grande Anse et du 
Sud.http://www.lemonde.fr/planete/article/2016/12/12/en-haiti-deux-mois-apres-l-ouragan-matthew-les-estomacs-sont-vides_5047254_3244.html#bsMe9EDCAcvMQcsf.99

James, tu dois prendre un "Break" et éviter des "conflits supplémentaires" en 
incluant maintenant les franco :) 
Joyeux Noel. 
 
Pierre 


  De : john whelan <jwhelan0...@gmail.com>
 À : James <james2...@gmail.com> 
Cc : Paul Norman <penor...@mac.com>; Talk-CA OpenStreetMap 
<talk-ca@openstreetmap.org>
 Envoyé le : jeudi 22 décembre 2016 19h00
 Objet : Re: [Talk-ca] Community Conduct
   
> no one maps Gatineau(seriously, maybe cause it's the French side?)

Tact my son tact, look the word up in the dictionary or you'll have Pierre 
descending on Ottawa demanding double Lattes.

Cheerio John

On 22 December 2016 at 18:40, James <james2...@gmail.com> wrote:

Paul, I am aware of conflicts may occur, but seeing as no one maps 
Gatineau(seriously, maybe cause it's the French side?) I'm not that scared to 
go on a mapping session all day long. In Toronto or Ottawa is a different 
story, in which I would commit more often.

On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 6:35 PM, Paul Norman <penor...@mac.com> wrote:

  On 12/22/2016 3:21 PM, James wrote:
 
As pnorman has said in the past( https://lists.openstreetmap.or 
g/pipermail/talk-ca/2016-Septe mber/007260.html):
 
  Uploaded in small enough parts that the changesets make sense. This means 
never uploading more than 50k objects at once, and typically fewer than 10k.
 
 
 I try to keep my changes under 10k, but with buildings, nodes multiply quickly 
as there are minimum 4 per building(rare usually average 6-10 depending on 
complexity)
 
 
 The numbers quoted are in the context of an import where the concerns are the 
ability to revert, working with the changeset in other tools, not leaving stray 
nodes in the database, not splitting one upload over multiple changesets, and 
not having a broken upload. I wouldn't recommend exceeding them for any work, 
but a non-import is out of the scope of the CanVec post linked.
 
 Personally, I'd get worried about conflicts, lost work, and want to upload 
well before 1k changes, let alone 10k. Those often aren't a problem with an 
import, or if they are they can be easier to solve, but with normal mapping 
solving them often requires more thought.
 
 
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Re: [Talk-ca] Community Conduct

[john whelan]

My expectation is the full City of Ottawa building foot print file will be
made available around the twelfth of January on their Open Data portal.
Although the formal decision has been made apparently they allow their
employees to take vacation from time to time hence the delay.  At which
point the image data from Carlton is no longer as attractive.

My suggestion from a practical point of view would be to stop using the
Carlton source, but since it is all City of Ottawa data and the City of
Ottawa have been very cooperative on their open data that we leave the
buildings that have been traced so far in the Map.  I honestly don't think
the City of Ottawa will be stomping all over us especially as effectively
the building foot prints will be made available in early January.

Cheerio John

On 22 December 2016 at 20:09, Stewart C. Russell  wrote:

> On 2016-12-22 07:47 PM, James wrote:
> > From what was told to me at the school,  Stewart, you are allowed to
> > create derivative work/tracing, but not distribute the imagery.
>
> You may be able to create derivative work, but solely for teaching or
> academic purposes. The most recent Carleton University Data Use
> Agreement I can find
> ( DataUseAgreement.pdf>)
> says:
>
>   I am affiliated with Carleton University as a current
>   faculty member, student or staff member and I agree to
>   abide by the terms of the University’s contractual
>   obligations to the owner of the data. Data obtained
>   by this agreement is protected by copyright and remain
>   the property of the data producer. I understand that:
>
>   * The data provided to me is for the exclusive purposes
>   of teaching or academic research while I am a member
>   of the Carleton University community and may not be
>   used for any other purposes without the explicit prior
>   written approval of the owner of the data.
>
>   * I am prohibited from using these data products in
>   the pursuit of any commercial or income-generating
>   venture either privately, with government, or under
>   the auspices of Carleton University.
>
>   * The data is released to me as a working copy for my
>   use only. The distribution, sale, donation, transfer,
>   sharing or exchange of any portion of these data in
>   any way is expressly prohibited.
>
>   * The data is accepted ”as is”, and that the
>   owner makes no representations or warranties, either
>   expressed or implied, as to the appropriateness and
>   fitness for a particular purpose.
>
>   * All publications, paper printouts, or manuscripts
>   containing the data must acknowledge explicitly the
>   owner of the data.
>
>   * Licensed downloaded data files must be erased
>   upon the completion of my research project, course
>   assignment, or thesis work.
>
>   * Use of the data may be subject to audit by the data
>   producer; so that in the event of audits, my use of
>   the data may be disclosed to the producer.
>
>   Data covered by this agreement:
>
>   Data listed below is stored on the Library GIS network
>   and is available only to Carleton University students,
>   faculty and staff upon presentation of current
>   university identification.
>
>   Licenced data include files from agencies of the
>   Government of Canada, the Government of Ontario,
>   the Government of Quebec, cities of Ottawa, Hamilton,
>   London and Niagara, commercial providers such as DMTI,
>   Teranet, and Landlnfo, and any other data providers
>   which require authenticated access. A full list of
>   data providers is available on the GIS website.
>
> I would say that this unequivocally prevents the data being used as an
> OSM source. Again, I ask you to refrain from using it until the licence
> is clarified by the Carleton library.
>
> Best Wishes,
>  Stewart
>
> ___
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> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>
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Re: [Talk-ca] Community Conduct

[James]

It may take a while for them to respond, due to the christmas holiday and
all.

On Dec 22, 2016 8:13 PM, "James"  wrote:

> Will do. If it needs to be reverted, I will do so.
>
> On Dec 22, 2016 8:11 PM, "Stewart C. Russell"  wrote:
>
>> On 2016-12-22 07:47 PM, James wrote:
>> > From what was told to me at the school,  Stewart, you are allowed to
>> > create derivative work/tracing, but not distribute the imagery.
>>
>> You may be able to create derivative work, but solely for teaching or
>> academic purposes. The most recent Carleton University Data Use
>> Agreement I can find
>> (> ataUseAgreement.pdf>)
>> says:
>>
>>   I am affiliated with Carleton University as a current
>>   faculty member, student or staff member and I agree to
>>   abide by the terms of the University’s contractual
>>   obligations to the owner of the data. Data obtained
>>   by this agreement is protected by copyright and remain
>>   the property of the data producer. I understand that:
>>
>>   * The data provided to me is for the exclusive purposes
>>   of teaching or academic research while I am a member
>>   of the Carleton University community and may not be
>>   used for any other purposes without the explicit prior
>>   written approval of the owner of the data.
>>
>>   * I am prohibited from using these data products in
>>   the pursuit of any commercial or income-generating
>>   venture either privately, with government, or under
>>   the auspices of Carleton University.
>>
>>   * The data is released to me as a working copy for my
>>   use only. The distribution, sale, donation, transfer,
>>   sharing or exchange of any portion of these data in
>>   any way is expressly prohibited.
>>
>>   * The data is accepted ”as is”, and that the
>>   owner makes no representations or warranties, either
>>   expressed or implied, as to the appropriateness and
>>   fitness for a particular purpose.
>>
>>   * All publications, paper printouts, or manuscripts
>>   containing the data must acknowledge explicitly the
>>   owner of the data.
>>
>>   * Licensed downloaded data files must be erased
>>   upon the completion of my research project, course
>>   assignment, or thesis work.
>>
>>   * Use of the data may be subject to audit by the data
>>   producer; so that in the event of audits, my use of
>>   the data may be disclosed to the producer.
>>
>>   Data covered by this agreement:
>>
>>   Data listed below is stored on the Library GIS network
>>   and is available only to Carleton University students,
>>   faculty and staff upon presentation of current
>>   university identification.
>>
>>   Licenced data include files from agencies of the
>>   Government of Canada, the Government of Ontario,
>>   the Government of Quebec, cities of Ottawa, Hamilton,
>>   London and Niagara, commercial providers such as DMTI,
>>   Teranet, and Landlnfo, and any other data providers
>>   which require authenticated access. A full list of
>>   data providers is available on the GIS website.
>>
>> I would say that this unequivocally prevents the data being used as an
>> OSM source. Again, I ask you to refrain from using it until the licence
>> is clarified by the Carleton library.
>>
>> Best Wishes,
>>  Stewart
>>
>> ___
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>> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>>
>
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Re: [Talk-ca] Community Conduct

[James]

Will do. If it needs to be reverted, I will do so.

On Dec 22, 2016 8:11 PM, "Stewart C. Russell"  wrote:

> On 2016-12-22 07:47 PM, James wrote:
> > From what was told to me at the school,  Stewart, you are allowed to
> > create derivative work/tracing, but not distribute the imagery.
>
> You may be able to create derivative work, but solely for teaching or
> academic purposes. The most recent Carleton University Data Use
> Agreement I can find
> ( DataUseAgreement.pdf>)
> says:
>
>   I am affiliated with Carleton University as a current
>   faculty member, student or staff member and I agree to
>   abide by the terms of the University’s contractual
>   obligations to the owner of the data. Data obtained
>   by this agreement is protected by copyright and remain
>   the property of the data producer. I understand that:
>
>   * The data provided to me is for the exclusive purposes
>   of teaching or academic research while I am a member
>   of the Carleton University community and may not be
>   used for any other purposes without the explicit prior
>   written approval of the owner of the data.
>
>   * I am prohibited from using these data products in
>   the pursuit of any commercial or income-generating
>   venture either privately, with government, or under
>   the auspices of Carleton University.
>
>   * The data is released to me as a working copy for my
>   use only. The distribution, sale, donation, transfer,
>   sharing or exchange of any portion of these data in
>   any way is expressly prohibited.
>
>   * The data is accepted ”as is”, and that the
>   owner makes no representations or warranties, either
>   expressed or implied, as to the appropriateness and
>   fitness for a particular purpose.
>
>   * All publications, paper printouts, or manuscripts
>   containing the data must acknowledge explicitly the
>   owner of the data.
>
>   * Licensed downloaded data files must be erased
>   upon the completion of my research project, course
>   assignment, or thesis work.
>
>   * Use of the data may be subject to audit by the data
>   producer; so that in the event of audits, my use of
>   the data may be disclosed to the producer.
>
>   Data covered by this agreement:
>
>   Data listed below is stored on the Library GIS network
>   and is available only to Carleton University students,
>   faculty and staff upon presentation of current
>   university identification.
>
>   Licenced data include files from agencies of the
>   Government of Canada, the Government of Ontario,
>   the Government of Quebec, cities of Ottawa, Hamilton,
>   London and Niagara, commercial providers such as DMTI,
>   Teranet, and Landlnfo, and any other data providers
>   which require authenticated access. A full list of
>   data providers is available on the GIS website.
>
> I would say that this unequivocally prevents the data being used as an
> OSM source. Again, I ask you to refrain from using it until the licence
> is clarified by the Carleton library.
>
> Best Wishes,
>  Stewart
>
> ___
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>
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Re: [Talk-ca] Community Conduct

[Stewart C. Russell]

On 2016-12-22 07:47 PM, James wrote:
> From what was told to me at the school,  Stewart, you are allowed to
> create derivative work/tracing, but not distribute the imagery.

You may be able to create derivative work, but solely for teaching or
academic purposes. The most recent Carleton University Data Use
Agreement I can find
()
says:

  I am affiliated with Carleton University as a current
  faculty member, student or staff member and I agree to
  abide by the terms of the University’s contractual
  obligations to the owner of the data. Data obtained
  by this agreement is protected by copyright and remain
  the property of the data producer. I understand that:

  * The data provided to me is for the exclusive purposes
  of teaching or academic research while I am a member
  of the Carleton University community and may not be
  used for any other purposes without the explicit prior
  written approval of the owner of the data.

  * I am prohibited from using these data products in
  the pursuit of any commercial or income-generating
  venture either privately, with government, or under
  the auspices of Carleton University.

  * The data is released to me as a working copy for my
  use only. The distribution, sale, donation, transfer,
  sharing or exchange of any portion of these data in
  any way is expressly prohibited.

  * The data is accepted ”as is”, and that the
  owner makes no representations or warranties, either
  expressed or implied, as to the appropriateness and
  fitness for a particular purpose.

  * All publications, paper printouts, or manuscripts
  containing the data must acknowledge explicitly the
  owner of the data.

  * Licensed downloaded data files must be erased
  upon the completion of my research project, course
  assignment, or thesis work.

  * Use of the data may be subject to audit by the data
  producer; so that in the event of audits, my use of
  the data may be disclosed to the producer.

  Data covered by this agreement:

  Data listed below is stored on the Library GIS network
  and is available only to Carleton University students,
  faculty and staff upon presentation of current
  university identification.

  Licenced data include files from agencies of the
  Government of Canada, the Government of Ontario,
  the Government of Quebec, cities of Ottawa, Hamilton,
  London and Niagara, commercial providers such as DMTI,
  Teranet, and Landlnfo, and any other data providers
  which require authenticated access. A full list of
  data providers is available on the GIS website.

I would say that this unequivocally prevents the data being used as an
OSM source. Again, I ask you to refrain from using it until the licence
is clarified by the Carleton library.

Best Wishes,
 Stewart

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Re: [Talk-ca] Community Conduct

[James]

>From what was told to me at the school,  Stewart, you are allowed to create
derivative work/tracing, but not distribute the imagery.

On Dec 22, 2016 7:29 PM, "Stewart C. Russell"  wrote:

> On 2016-12-22 02:43 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> >
> > http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/44545610#map=16/45.4064/-75.7947
> > …
> > But maybe I'm overreacting and I'm prepared to let the matter rest if
> > the Canadian community finds that normal.
>
> I don't find that normal, and I'm sorry you had to deal with it. OSM
> must be a welcoming and cooperative community, and some of the comments
> in that exchange were out of line. OSM is not a race to see who can add
> the most data.
>
> I have approached the GIS at Carleton team to ask about the licence for
> their air photos. I can neither access their images as a slippy map nor
> find a data licence text. The statement that “City of Ottawa Air Photos
> are available for direct download for Carleton University students,
> faculty and staff ONLY” (emphasis theirs) makes me concerned that the
> data is under a restricted academic licence.
>
> Until Carleton can confirm that the data is good to use, I'd like to
> request that Jamie and any others refrain from using it as a data
> source. It's like the Ottawa building import: the OSM community can't
> use data until its source and licence is verifiable by everyone.
>
> cheers,
>  Stewart
>
>
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Re: [Talk-ca] Community Conduct

[Stewart C. Russell]

On 2016-12-22 02:43 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> 
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/44545610#map=16/45.4064/-75.7947
> …
> But maybe I'm overreacting and I'm prepared to let the matter rest if
> the Canadian community finds that normal.

I don't find that normal, and I'm sorry you had to deal with it. OSM
must be a welcoming and cooperative community, and some of the comments
in that exchange were out of line. OSM is not a race to see who can add
the most data.

I have approached the GIS at Carleton team to ask about the licence for
their air photos. I can neither access their images as a slippy map nor
find a data licence text. The statement that “City of Ottawa Air Photos
are available for direct download for Carleton University students,
faculty and staff ONLY” (emphasis theirs) makes me concerned that the
data is under a restricted academic licence.

Until Carleton can confirm that the data is good to use, I'd like to
request that Jamie and any others refrain from using it as a data
source. It's like the Ottawa building import: the OSM community can't
use data until its source and licence is verifiable by everyone.

cheers,
 Stewart


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Re: [Talk-ca] Community Conduct

[Begin Daniel]

Thank John

From: john whelan [mailto:jwhelan0...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, 22 December, 2016 19:00
To: James
Cc: Paul Norman; Talk-CA OpenStreetMap
Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] Community Conduct

> no one maps Gatineau(seriously, maybe cause it's the French side?)
Tact my son tact, look the word up in the dictionary or you'll have Pierre 
descending on Ottawa demanding double Lattes.
Cheerio John

On 22 December 2016 at 18:40, James 
<james2...@gmail.com<mailto:james2...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Paul, I am aware of conflicts may occur, but seeing as no one maps 
Gatineau(seriously, maybe cause it's the French side?) I'm not that scared to 
go on a mapping session all day long. In Toronto or Ottawa is a different 
story, in which I would commit more often.

On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 6:35 PM, Paul Norman 
<penor...@mac.com<mailto:penor...@mac.com>> wrote:
On 12/22/2016 3:21 PM, James wrote:

As pnorman has said in the past( 
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ca/2016-September/007260.html):

 Uploaded in small enough parts that the changesets make sense. This means 
never uploading more than 50k objects at once, and typically fewer than 10k.


I try to keep my changes under 10k, but with buildings, nodes multiply quickly 
as there are minimum 4 per building(rare usually average 6-10 depending on 
complexity)

The numbers quoted are in the context of an import where the concerns are the 
ability to revert, working with the changeset in other tools, not leaving stray 
nodes in the database, not splitting one upload over multiple changesets, and 
not having a broken upload. I wouldn't recommend exceeding them for any work, 
but a non-import is out of the scope of the CanVec post linked.

Personally, I'd get worried about conflicts, lost work, and want to upload well 
before 1k changes, let alone 10k. Those often aren't a problem with an import, 
or if they are they can be easier to solve, but with normal mapping solving 
them often requires more thought.

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Re: [Talk-ca] Community Conduct

[James]

I didnt mean it that way, I ment compared to Montreal, Toronto and
OttawaGatineau is a commit wasteland

On Dec 22, 2016 7:00 PM, "john whelan"  wrote:

> > no one maps Gatineau(seriously, maybe cause it's the French side?)
>
> Tact my son tact, look the word up in the dictionary or you'll have Pierre
> descending on Ottawa demanding double Lattes.
>
> Cheerio John
>
> On 22 December 2016 at 18:40, James  wrote:
>
>> Paul, I am aware of conflicts may occur, but seeing as no one maps
>> Gatineau(seriously, maybe cause it's the French side?) I'm not that scared
>> to go on a mapping session all day long. In Toronto or Ottawa is a
>> different story, in which I would commit more often.
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 6:35 PM, Paul Norman  wrote:
>>
>>> On 12/22/2016 3:21 PM, James wrote:
>>>
>>> As pnorman has said in the past( https://lists.openstreetmap.or
>>> g/pipermail/talk-ca/2016-September/007260.html):
>>>
>>> * Uploaded in small enough parts that the changesets make sense. This
>>> means never uploading more than 50k objects at once, and typically fewer
>>> than 10k.*
>>>
>>>
>>> I try to keep my changes under 10k, but with buildings, nodes multiply
>>> quickly as there are minimum 4 per building(rare usually average 6-10
>>> depending on complexity)
>>>
>>>
>>> The numbers quoted are in the context of an *import *where the concerns
>>> are the ability to revert, working with the changeset in other tools, not
>>> leaving stray nodes in the database, not splitting one upload over multiple
>>> changesets, and not having a broken upload. I wouldn't recommend exceeding
>>> them for any work, but a non-import is out of the scope of the CanVec post
>>> linked.
>>>
>>> Personally, I'd get worried about conflicts, lost work, and want to
>>> upload well before 1k changes, let alone 10k. Those often aren't a problem
>>> with an import, or if they are they can be easier to solve, but with normal
>>> mapping solving them often requires more thought.
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
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>>> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> 外に遊びに行こう！
>>
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Re: [Talk-ca] Community Conduct

[john whelan]

> no one maps Gatineau(seriously, maybe cause it's the French side?)

Tact my son tact, look the word up in the dictionary or you'll have Pierre
descending on Ottawa demanding double Lattes.

Cheerio John

On 22 December 2016 at 18:40, James  wrote:

> Paul, I am aware of conflicts may occur, but seeing as no one maps
> Gatineau(seriously, maybe cause it's the French side?) I'm not that scared
> to go on a mapping session all day long. In Toronto or Ottawa is a
> different story, in which I would commit more often.
>
> On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 6:35 PM, Paul Norman  wrote:
>
>> On 12/22/2016 3:21 PM, James wrote:
>>
>> As pnorman has said in the past( https://lists.openstreetmap.or
>> g/pipermail/talk-ca/2016-September/007260.html):
>>
>> * Uploaded in small enough parts that the changesets make sense. This
>> means never uploading more than 50k objects at once, and typically fewer
>> than 10k.*
>>
>>
>> I try to keep my changes under 10k, but with buildings, nodes multiply
>> quickly as there are minimum 4 per building(rare usually average 6-10
>> depending on complexity)
>>
>>
>> The numbers quoted are in the context of an *import *where the concerns
>> are the ability to revert, working with the changeset in other tools, not
>> leaving stray nodes in the database, not splitting one upload over multiple
>> changesets, and not having a broken upload. I wouldn't recommend exceeding
>> them for any work, but a non-import is out of the scope of the CanVec post
>> linked.
>>
>> Personally, I'd get worried about conflicts, lost work, and want to
>> upload well before 1k changes, let alone 10k. Those often aren't a problem
>> with an import, or if they are they can be easier to solve, but with normal
>> mapping solving them often requires more thought.
>>
>>
>> ___
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>> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>>
>>
>
>
> --
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>
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Re: [Talk-ca] Community Conduct

[James]

If you want me to commit in even smaller chunks I don't mind, I just hate
wasting "commit numbers" (see int64 limit, in which osm will have to change
their commit id schema or support int128)
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Re: [Talk-ca] Community Conduct

[James]

Paul, I am aware of conflicts may occur, but seeing as no one maps
Gatineau(seriously, maybe cause it's the French side?) I'm not that scared
to go on a mapping session all day long. In Toronto or Ottawa is a
different story, in which I would commit more often.

On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 6:35 PM, Paul Norman  wrote:

> On 12/22/2016 3:21 PM, James wrote:
>
> As pnorman has said in the past( https://lists.openstreetmap.
> org/pipermail/talk-ca/2016-September/007260.html):
>
> * Uploaded in small enough parts that the changesets make sense. This
> means never uploading more than 50k objects at once, and typically fewer
> than 10k.*
>
>
> I try to keep my changes under 10k, but with buildings, nodes multiply
> quickly as there are minimum 4 per building(rare usually average 6-10
> depending on complexity)
>
>
> The numbers quoted are in the context of an *import *where the concerns
> are the ability to revert, working with the changeset in other tools, not
> leaving stray nodes in the database, not splitting one upload over multiple
> changesets, and not having a broken upload. I wouldn't recommend exceeding
> them for any work, but a non-import is out of the scope of the CanVec post
> linked.
>
> Personally, I'd get worried about conflicts, lost work, and want to upload
> well before 1k changes, let alone 10k. Those often aren't a problem with an
> import, or if they are they can be easier to solve, but with normal mapping
> solving them often requires more thought.
>
>
> ___
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> Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>
>


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Re: [Talk-ca] Community Conduct

[Paul Norman]

On 12/22/2016 3:21 PM, James wrote:
As pnorman has said in the past( 
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ca/2016-September/007260.html):


/ Uploaded in small enough parts that the changesets make sense. This 
means never uploading more than 50k objects at once, and typically 
fewer than 10k./



I try to keep my changes under 10k, but with buildings, nodes multiply 
quickly as there are minimum 4 per building(rare usually average 6-10 
depending on complexity)


The numbers quoted are in the context of an *import *where the concerns 
are the ability to revert, working with the changeset in other tools, 
not leaving stray nodes in the database, not splitting one upload over 
multiple changesets, and not having a broken upload. I wouldn't 
recommend exceeding them for any work, but a non-import is out of the 
scope of the CanVec post linked.


Personally, I'd get worried about conflicts, lost work, and want to 
upload well before 1k changes, let alone 10k. Those often aren't a 
problem with an import, or if they are they can be easier to solve, but 
with normal mapping solving them often requires more thought.


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Re: [Talk-ca] Community Conduct

[James]

Especially with building tools(quick rectangles, predefined tags) and the
extruder tool(create areas : x as shortcut) it litterally takes me less
than 2 seconds to map a building, then it's on to the next one beside it.
More complexe ones(with arcs) may take me longer, but I still average a lot
faster than anything I could do in ID or manually(how I was doing it
before) with the line tool. It's not hard to map buildings, it's wether you
have the drive and determination to do such a mundane task or not.
Sometimes I get so focused a couple hours have passed, and then I decide to
commit. For me (goes with git commits aswell) I commit once or twice a day
or when a job is done and not go commit crazy (once every 10-20minutes).

As pnorman has said in the past(
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ca/2016-September/007260.html
):

* Uploaded in small enough parts that the changesets make sense. This means
never uploading more than 50k objects at once, and typically fewer than
10k.*


I try to keep my changes under 10k, but with buildings, nodes multiply
quickly as there are minimum 4 per building(rare usually average 6-10
depending on complexity)




> On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 6:09 PM, James  wrote:
>
>> As Devonf has pointed out, if you want to see the carletonuniversity(cant
>> download I'm sorry) you can visit http://maps.ottawa.ca/geoottawa/ and
>> view the "2014" aerial ortho, which seems to be the same. I'm not trying to
>> hide anything, the fact that it's not available for download is out of my
>> control
>>
>> On Dec 22, 2016 4:30 PM, "Michael Reichert"  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi James,
>>>
>>> Am 22.12.2016 um 21:23 schrieb James:
>>> > And suddenly the osmcha disapproval from Nakaner(Michael has
>>> > disapearedI know he's on this list as he does popup from time to
>>> time
>>> > on this listvery suspicious indeed.
>>>
>>> Based on the information given in the changeset tags I concluded at the
>>> time I added the -1 flag that it is an import. If you trace buildings
>>> the number of added nodes per changeset might reach 1000. But in this
>>> changeset 8008 nodes were added. I was impossible to prove that Bing or
>>> Mapbox imagery was used.
>>>
>>> In the meanwhile you stated that you used other data sources for
>>> tracing. That's why I removed the flag.
>>>
>>> Best regards
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Per E-Mail kommuniziere ich bevorzugt GPG-verschlüsselt. (Mailinglisten
>>> ausgenommen)
>>> I prefer GPG encryption of emails. (does not apply on mailing lists)
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
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>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>


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Re: [Talk-ca] Community Conduct

[James]

Well I do have a logitech g9 gaming mouse, that is pretty awesome for
mapping and gamingbut I doubt that's the issue here.

On Dec 22, 2016 5:55 PM, "john whelan"  wrote:

Ask him to show you his gaming mouse with the Hyperglide teflon engineered
mouse skates.

Cheerio John

On 22 December 2016 at 16:28, Michael Reichert  wrote:

> Hi James,
>
> Am 22.12.2016 um 21:23 schrieb James:
> > And suddenly the osmcha disapproval from Nakaner(Michael has
> > disapearedI know he's on this list as he does popup from time to time
> > on this listvery suspicious indeed.
>
> Based on the information given in the changeset tags I concluded at the
> time I added the -1 flag that it is an import. If you trace buildings
> the number of added nodes per changeset might reach 1000. But in this
> changeset 8008 nodes were added. I was impossible to prove that Bing or
> Mapbox imagery was used.
>
> In the meanwhile you stated that you used other data sources for
> tracing. That's why I removed the flag.
>
> Best regards
>
> Michael
>
>
> --
> Per E-Mail kommuniziere ich bevorzugt GPG-verschlüsselt. (Mailinglisten
> ausgenommen)
> I prefer GPG encryption of emails. (does not apply on mailing lists)
>
>
> ___
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>
>

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Re: [Talk-ca] Community Conduct

[john whelan]

Ask him to show you his gaming mouse with the Hyperglide teflon engineered
mouse skates.

Cheerio John

On 22 December 2016 at 16:28, Michael Reichert  wrote:

> Hi James,
>
> Am 22.12.2016 um 21:23 schrieb James:
> > And suddenly the osmcha disapproval from Nakaner(Michael has
> > disapearedI know he's on this list as he does popup from time to time
> > on this listvery suspicious indeed.
>
> Based on the information given in the changeset tags I concluded at the
> time I added the -1 flag that it is an import. If you trace buildings
> the number of added nodes per changeset might reach 1000. But in this
> changeset 8008 nodes were added. I was impossible to prove that Bing or
> Mapbox imagery was used.
>
> In the meanwhile you stated that you used other data sources for
> tracing. That's why I removed the flag.
>
> Best regards
>
> Michael
>
>
> --
> Per E-Mail kommuniziere ich bevorzugt GPG-verschlüsselt. (Mailinglisten
> ausgenommen)
> I prefer GPG encryption of emails. (does not apply on mailing lists)
>
>
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>
>
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Re: [Talk-ca] Community Conduct

[James]

As Devonf has pointed out, if you want to see the carletonuniversity(cant
download I'm sorry) you can visit http://maps.ottawa.ca/geoottawa/ and view
the "2014" aerial ortho, which seems to be the same. I'm not trying to hide
anything, the fact that it's not available for download is out of my control

On Dec 22, 2016 4:30 PM, "Michael Reichert"  wrote:

> Hi James,
>
> Am 22.12.2016 um 21:23 schrieb James:
> > And suddenly the osmcha disapproval from Nakaner(Michael has
> > disapearedI know he's on this list as he does popup from time to time
> > on this listvery suspicious indeed.
>
> Based on the information given in the changeset tags I concluded at the
> time I added the -1 flag that it is an import. If you trace buildings
> the number of added nodes per changeset might reach 1000. But in this
> changeset 8008 nodes were added. I was impossible to prove that Bing or
> Mapbox imagery was used.
>
> In the meanwhile you stated that you used other data sources for
> tracing. That's why I removed the flag.
>
> Best regards
>
> Michael
>
>
> --
> Per E-Mail kommuniziere ich bevorzugt GPG-verschlüsselt. (Mailinglisten
> ausgenommen)
> I prefer GPG encryption of emails. (does not apply on mailing lists)
>
>
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>
>
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[Talk-ca] Community conduct / mapping

[john whelan]

Just a gentle comment.

We do have mappers on the ground in Ottawa/Gatineau and we do talk face to
face believe it or not and we have been known to discuss things over coffee.

We have ways of disciplining tatty mappers, they get to buy the next round
of coffee.

Our local mappers have been known to physically check the location etc of
bus stops when there was some doubt.

We have the capability to look at buildings as well.  Not just look at
imagery.

If there are questions about a particular building perhaps they can be
directed to us to confirm rather than being zapped from afar?

OSM is supposed to be community mapping can we keep it that way please.

Thanks John
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Re: [Talk-ca] Community Conduct

[James]

It's too bad I document everything before.
http://imgur.com/a/yedmc

On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 3:23 PM, James  wrote:

> And suddenly the osmcha disapproval from Nakaner(Michael has
> disapearedI know he's on this list as he does popup from time to time
> on this listvery suspicious indeed.
>
> On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 3:08 PM, James  wrote:
>
>> http://osmcha.mapbox.com/44545610/
>> I can see that it was our Friend Nakaner that has reported it to you, in
>> which there was a whole shit-show (sorry for the language) with Rps333 and
>> CanVEC imports in the north. You cannot deny that you and Nakaner have a
>> history with Rps333, Denis and I. So to ask so broadly without giving
>> history into the matter is quite an oversight and might be normal for me to
>> be defensive, because of our history together.
>>
>> I've done mass adds(by hand) on my new account and have gotten 0 flak,
>> but once "LogicalViolinist" is attached to the changeset, it is flagged,
>> which I'm tired of(thus the defensive attitude).
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 2:46 PM, James  wrote:
>>
>>> Frederik, your email is very opinionated, when I have just showed you
>>> (pixel based) why I drew that building like that.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 2:43 PM, Frederik Ramm 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Hi,

I've been involved in a changeset discussion that I would like to
 bring to the attention of a wider audience:

 http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/44545610#map=16/45.4064/-75.7947

 I don't think I'm the right person to continue that discussion but I see
 several questionable attitudes here (e.g. the "I don't need to show
 sources for what I do" attitude, the "I have more edits than you so shut
 up" attitude).

 I was initially drawn to that changeset because it was flagged as a
 potential import, adding 1000 houses over a couple of hours. I'm still
 not sure if my suspicion was correct. It should be easy enough to
 disprove but instead we're seeing statements, attacks and excuses worthy
 of an US election twitter exchange.

 But maybe I'm overreacting and I'm prepared to let the matter rest if
 the Canadian community finds that nomal.

 Bye
 Frederik

 --
 Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09"
 E008°23'33"

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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> 外に遊びに行こう！
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> 外に遊びに行こう！
>>
>
>
>
> --
> 外に遊びに行こう！
>



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Re: [Talk-ca] Community Conduct

[James]

And suddenly the osmcha disapproval from Nakaner(Michael has
disapearedI know he's on this list as he does popup from time to time
on this listvery suspicious indeed.

On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 3:08 PM, James  wrote:

> http://osmcha.mapbox.com/44545610/
> I can see that it was our Friend Nakaner that has reported it to you, in
> which there was a whole shit-show (sorry for the language) with Rps333 and
> CanVEC imports in the north. You cannot deny that you and Nakaner have a
> history with Rps333, Denis and I. So to ask so broadly without giving
> history into the matter is quite an oversight and might be normal for me to
> be defensive, because of our history together.
>
> I've done mass adds(by hand) on my new account and have gotten 0 flak, but
> once "LogicalViolinist" is attached to the changeset, it is flagged, which
> I'm tired of(thus the defensive attitude).
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 2:46 PM, James  wrote:
>
>> Frederik, your email is very opinionated, when I have just showed you
>> (pixel based) why I drew that building like that.
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 2:43 PM, Frederik Ramm 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>>I've been involved in a changeset discussion that I would like to
>>> bring to the attention of a wider audience:
>>>
>>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/44545610#map=16/45.4064/-75.7947
>>>
>>> I don't think I'm the right person to continue that discussion but I see
>>> several questionable attitudes here (e.g. the "I don't need to show
>>> sources for what I do" attitude, the "I have more edits than you so shut
>>> up" attitude).
>>>
>>> I was initially drawn to that changeset because it was flagged as a
>>> potential import, adding 1000 houses over a couple of hours. I'm still
>>> not sure if my suspicion was correct. It should be easy enough to
>>> disprove but instead we're seeing statements, attacks and excuses worthy
>>> of an US election twitter exchange.
>>>
>>> But maybe I'm overreacting and I'm prepared to let the matter rest if
>>> the Canadian community finds that nomal.
>>>
>>> Bye
>>> Frederik
>>>
>>> --
>>> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>>>
>>> ___
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> 外に遊びに行こう！
>>
>
>
>
> --
> 外に遊びに行こう！
>



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Re: [Talk-ca] Community Conduct

[James]

http://osmcha.mapbox.com/44545610/
I can see that it was our Friend Nakaner that has reported it to you, in
which there was a whole shit-show (sorry for the language) with Rps333 and
CanVEC imports in the north. You cannot deny that you and Nakaner have a
history with Rps333, Denis and I. So to ask so broadly without giving
history into the matter is quite an oversight and might be normal for me to
be defensive, because of our history together.

I've done mass adds(by hand) on my new account and have gotten 0 flak, but
once "LogicalViolinist" is attached to the changeset, it is flagged, which
I'm tired of(thus the defensive attitude).


On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 2:46 PM, James  wrote:

> Frederik, your email is very opinionated, when I have just showed you
> (pixel based) why I drew that building like that.
>
> On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 2:43 PM, Frederik Ramm 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>>I've been involved in a changeset discussion that I would like to
>> bring to the attention of a wider audience:
>>
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/44545610#map=16/45.4064/-75.7947
>>
>> I don't think I'm the right person to continue that discussion but I see
>> several questionable attitudes here (e.g. the "I don't need to show
>> sources for what I do" attitude, the "I have more edits than you so shut
>> up" attitude).
>>
>> I was initially drawn to that changeset because it was flagged as a
>> potential import, adding 1000 houses over a couple of hours. I'm still
>> not sure if my suspicion was correct. It should be easy enough to
>> disprove but instead we're seeing statements, attacks and excuses worthy
>> of an US election twitter exchange.
>>
>> But maybe I'm overreacting and I'm prepared to let the matter rest if
>> the Canadian community finds that nomal.
>>
>> Bye
>> Frederik
>>
>> --
>> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>>
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>
>
>
> --
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>



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Re: [Talk-ca] Community Conduct

[James]

Frederik, your email is very opinionated, when I have just showed you
(pixel based) why I drew that building like that.

On Thu, Dec 22, 2016 at 2:43 PM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> Hi,
>
>I've been involved in a changeset discussion that I would like to
> bring to the attention of a wider audience:
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/44545610#map=16/45.4064/-75.7947
>
> I don't think I'm the right person to continue that discussion but I see
> several questionable attitudes here (e.g. the "I don't need to show
> sources for what I do" attitude, the "I have more edits than you so shut
> up" attitude).
>
> I was initially drawn to that changeset because it was flagged as a
> potential import, adding 1000 houses over a couple of hours. I'm still
> not sure if my suspicion was correct. It should be easy enough to
> disprove but instead we're seeing statements, attacks and excuses worthy
> of an US election twitter exchange.
>
> But maybe I'm overreacting and I'm prepared to let the matter rest if
> the Canadian community finds that nomal.
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> --
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>
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[Talk-ca] Community Conduct

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

   I've been involved in a changeset discussion that I would like to
bring to the attention of a wider audience:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/44545610#map=16/45.4064/-75.7947

I don't think I'm the right person to continue that discussion but I see
several questionable attitudes here (e.g. the "I don't need to show
sources for what I do" attitude, the "I have more edits than you so shut
up" attitude).

I was initially drawn to that changeset because it was flagged as a
potential import, adding 1000 houses over a couple of hours. I'm still
not sure if my suspicion was correct. It should be easy enough to
disprove but instead we're seeing statements, attacks and excuses worthy
of an US election twitter exchange.

But maybe I'm overreacting and I'm prepared to let the matter rest if
the Canadian community finds that nomal.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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