Re: [Talk-ca] opendata datasets
Normally the OSM .odbl license doesn't line up with the Open data license. Cheerio John On 30 July 2012 22:50, Bruno Remy bremy.qc...@gmail.com wrote: Hello There are so many Dataset available with Opendata JOSM plug-in. The only way to import other datasets is to develop a module,unfortunatly documentation on wiki is quite poor; http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JOSM/Plugins/OpenData#Develop_a_module Does somebody have more details on howto develop OpenData modules? Thanks. -- Bruno Remy ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] opendata datasets
2012/7/31 Bruno Remy bremy.qc...@gmail.com: what!? do you mean openstreetmap denies opendata !!!? Come on! it's a joke? Dear Bruno, This is an old topic. I'll summarize for you. In short, yes, the OpenStreetMap community does reject a class of Open Data. We don't want data in OSM that we aren't welcome to have. Some data in incompatible because it is improperly licensed, low quality, uninteresting or unsuitable for other reasons. Here is more detail about the license problem. Yes, it is wonderful that governments at all levels are learning about the benefits of Open Data but governments are struggling to participate effectively in the global Open Data environment. The worst thing to happen in the Canadian Open Data environment was the city of Vancouver. They wrote their own data license, and it was a terrible, regressive document. Sadly, it was a terrible, regressive document that had a lot of promotion behind it and several other municipalities duplicated the Vancouver errors. That set the Canadian municipal Open Data movement back by at least two years. Finally, now, municipalities are realizing the critical failure of writing their own license and the benefit of adopting a common license, drafted and maintained by international data law experts. Slowly, municipalities are replacing their failed custom licenses with something less-horrible. We would have more data to consider, if more municipalities had followed the excellent lead of Surrey, BC and Langley Township, BC. Even if the license problems of municipal data could be solved instantly, there is the matter of suitability for OpenStreetMap. You must be aware of and follow completely the import guidelines if you wish to include data from external sources in OpenStreetMap. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import_guidelines ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] opendata datasets
On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 8:26 AM, Richard Weait rich...@weait.com wrote: 2012/7/31 Bruno Remy bremy.qc...@gmail.com: what!? do you mean openstreetmap denies opendata !!!? Come on! it's a joke? Dear Bruno, This is an old topic. I'll summarize for you. On the good side, we have Natural Resources Canada, who has been participating in OpenStreetMap for several years, publishes Open Data with compatible licensing and even published data in OpenStreetMap format. ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] opendata datasets
2012/7/31 Bruno Remy bremy.qc...@gmail.com: Thanks Richard for your considerations. While reading your comments, I'm carried to believe that : wheras Canadian municipalities produce scrap data versus europenan ones I don't believe this. Canadian citizen are less confident in theyr gouvernement's IT stuff than European does. I don't believe this either. OSM in Europe has grown more effectively than in North America, because there are more _OSM contributors_ in Europe. Not because there is more Open Data in Europe. Much less data has been imported in Europe than in North America. Anyway I submit you two questions: 1- Does this Quebec city Opendata Licence compatible with OSM? (Y/N) And Why? I haven't looked at it. http://donnees.ville.quebec.qc.ca/licence.aspx 2- What are the steps to import thoses data (if permitted, of course)? Follow the import guidelines linked in the previous message. But! It is much better to intorduce new mappers to OpenStreetMap, than it is to import some random dataset in a place that will not be maintained over time. ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
Re: [Talk-ca] opendata datasets
Hi Bruno, Although there are many more European datasets listed in the catalogue, many of them are very small, covering only a city, province, etc. In North America there are a few, but very large datasets which have been imported or are in the process of being imported. Examples in the US are the Tiger dataset (imported in 2007/2008) and the NHD dataset (waterways). In Canada there are of course Canvec and previously Geobase. So, the amount of imported data in North America is larger than in Europe. And of course, in Europe the situation differs by country. For instance, in the Netherlands there is a lot of imported data as well (roads, landuse, buildings), as well as in France (landuse, buildings). On the other hand, Germany and the UK have relatively small amounts of imported data. Referring back to your earlier question: there is open data, and there is open data. The degree of openness is varying. The most open datasets are the public domain datasets (PD, CC-0). Federal Canadian and US datasets are examples of that, like Canvec. Any license attached to the open data in fact restricts its usage. Each restriction needs to be evaluated carefully. Before importing any open dataset, one must make sure that those restrictions can be honored to. So, a license like CC-BY-SA imposes that the author should be attributed (BY-clause), and that the data can only be shared under a similar license (SA-clause). It is difficult for OSM to do the attribution part, because the objects themselves can easily be edited. Sharing alike is out of the question with the ODbL, as this is a completely different license (although with similar clausess). And of course other guidelines are that it should not replace user-contributed data (unless widely agreed upon), that it is maintainable, etc. Of course there is a way out when the license seems to be incompatible, namely contacting the author, and ask if they are prepared to grant you a license to have it incorporated under the OSM-license (ODbL). They own the copyright to the data, so they have the authority to decide on that. You can see the (too restrictive) license as an invitation for negotiations for the data owner to open up a bit more ;) This is the way how a lot of the listed datasets in the catalog ended up being imported in OSM. Of course, when you receive authorization, it should be listed on the wiki page describing the import as well, so it can be referred to later as well. This is also the place where the original author can be attributed to. When it comes to the question whether imported data is good or not: there is no clear cut answer to it. Sometimes it can be good, but all too often it ends up badly. Those kinds of imports are the main reason why imports in general have not a good name. See for example http://worstofosm.tumblr.com/ . Have a laugh about it :) BUT, if you intend to import data, make sure your import doesn't end up at that place! I hope this clears up some of your concerns. Cheers, Frank On 31-7-2012 19:04, Bruno Remy wrote: 2012/7/31 Richard Weait rich...@weait.com mailto:rich...@weait.com 2012/7/31 Bruno Remy bremy.qc...@gmail.com mailto:bremy.qc...@gmail.com: Thanks Richard for your considerations. While reading your comments, I'm carried to believe that : wheras Canadian municipalities produce scrap data versus europenan ones I don't believe this. Canadian citizen are less confident in theyr gouvernement's IT stuff than European does. I don't believe this either. OSM in Europe has grown more effectively than in North America, because there are more _OSM contributors_ in Europe. Not because there is more Open Data in Europe. Much less data has been imported in Europe than in North America. I totally agree with you about the number of contributors in Europe versus in North America. But I don't see clear correlation between number of contributors and number of data (ways, nodes.) because only 38% of contributors doesn't edit data, and only 19% make recuring edits. (source = http://www.mdpi.com/2220-9964/1/2/146) In the facts, most of main ways (coastlines, cities, roads, administrative boundaries) provides from Datasets mentionned here (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Catalogue) But if you take the time to analyse this import catalog http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Catalogue, it's clear that *mostly all datasets are provided by European* organisations (*only 14%* from North-America). So, YES Europe has more date but MOSTLY because of import of dataset. *For sure, contributors maintained and enhanced acuracy of these data*... but nobody can imagine that every single house and every single road has been handmade by volunteered geographic information (VGI): In this context, if I introduce new mappers to OpenStreetMap as you said, *by telling them drawing manualy
Re: [Talk-ca] opendata datasets
Hi folks, Thanks all for your comments. Here we go, just as Montreal city does, well think about it (mostly licence considerations) before taking actions: We've added an entry in Import catalog: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Catalogue#Ongoing_Imports.2C_Semi-Automated and started a new wiki mapping project's page: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Arrondissements_Quebec_city_import Cheers! Bruno 2012/7/31 Frank Steggink stegg...@steggink.org Hi Bruno, Although there are many more European datasets listed in the catalogue, many of them are very small, covering only a city, province, etc. In North America there are a few, but very large datasets which have been imported or are in the process of being imported. Examples in the US are the Tiger dataset (imported in 2007/2008) and the NHD dataset (waterways). In Canada there are of course Canvec and previously Geobase. So, the amount of imported data in North America is larger than in Europe. And of course, in Europe the situation differs by country. For instance, in the Netherlands there is a lot of imported data as well (roads, landuse, buildings), as well as in France (landuse, buildings). On the other hand, Germany and the UK have relatively small amounts of imported data. Referring back to your earlier question: there is open data, and there is open data. The degree of openness is varying. The most open datasets are the public domain datasets (PD, CC-0). Federal Canadian and US datasets are examples of that, like Canvec. Any license attached to the open data in fact restricts its usage. Each restriction needs to be evaluated carefully. Before importing any open dataset, one must make sure that those restrictions can be honored to. So, a license like CC-BY-SA imposes that the author should be attributed (BY-clause), and that the data can only be shared under a similar license (SA-clause). It is difficult for OSM to do the attribution part, because the objects themselves can easily be edited. Sharing alike is out of the question with the ODbL, as this is a completely different license (although with similar clausess). And of course other guidelines are that it should not replace user-contributed data (unless widely agreed upon), that it is maintainable, etc. Of course there is a way out when the license seems to be incompatible, namely contacting the author, and ask if they are prepared to grant you a license to have it incorporated under the OSM-license (ODbL). They own the copyright to the data, so they have the authority to decide on that. You can see the (too restrictive) license as an invitation for negotiations for the data owner to open up a bit more ;) This is the way how a lot of the listed datasets in the catalog ended up being imported in OSM. Of course, when you receive authorization, it should be listed on the wiki page describing the import as well, so it can be referred to later as well. This is also the place where the original author can be attributed to. When it comes to the question whether imported data is good or not: there is no clear cut answer to it. Sometimes it can be good, but all too often it ends up badly. Those kinds of imports are the main reason why imports in general have not a good name. See for example http://worstofosm.tumblr.com/ . Have a laugh about it :) BUT, if you intend to import data, make sure your import doesn't end up at that place! I hope this clears up some of your concerns. Cheers, Frank On 31-7-2012 19:04, Bruno Remy wrote: 2012/7/31 Richard Weait rich...@weait.com mailto:rich...@weait.com 2012/7/31 Bruno Remy bremy.qc...@gmail.com mailto:bremy.qc...@gmail.com**: Thanks Richard for your considerations. While reading your comments, I'm carried to believe that : wheras Canadian municipalities produce scrap data versus europenan ones I don't believe this. Canadian citizen are less confident in theyr gouvernement's IT stuff than European does. I don't believe this either. OSM in Europe has grown more effectively than in North America, because there are more _OSM contributors_ in Europe. Not because there is more Open Data in Europe. Much less data has been imported in Europe than in North America. I totally agree with you about the number of contributors in Europe versus in North America. But I don't see clear correlation between number of contributors and number of data (ways, nodes.) because only 38% of contributors doesn't edit data, and only 19% make recuring edits. (source = http://www.mdpi.com/2220-9964/**1/2/146http://www.mdpi.com/2220-9964/1/2/146 ) In the facts, most of main ways (coastlines, cities, roads, administrative boundaries) provides from Datasets mentionned here ( http://wiki.openstreetmap.**org/wiki/Import/Cataloguehttp://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Catalogue) But if you take the time to
Re: [Talk-ca] opendata datasets
On 31-7-2012 15:09, Bruno Remy wrote: Does this Quebec city Opendata Licence compatible with OSM? (Y/N) And Why? http://donnees.ville.quebec.qc.ca/licence.aspx I'll give this a try with my understanding of French, so be aware... ;) I'll only pay attention to the clauses which might be an issue for an eventual import in OSM. 2. Droits de propriété intellectuelle 2.1 La Ville conserve tous les droits de propriété intellectuelle à l’égard des Données et vous reconnaissez que vous n’avez aucun droit de propriété intellectuelle, incluant les droits d’auteur, sur les ensembles de Données. Si vous rendez les ensembles de Données accessibles à un tiers en octroyant une sous-licence, en format original ou modifié, vous devez lui fournir une copie des présentes conditions d’utilisation pour vous assurer qu’il respecte les conditions d’utilisation, sans les modifier. This means that OSM should inform all third parties about this license. How can this be done? And this should only apply to extracts which cover parts of Quebec City, and only when it includes City data. This is difficult with the current infrastructure. 3. Indication de la source des ensembles de Données 3.1 Vous devez inclure et maintenir l'avis suivant sur toute reproduction des ensembles de Données : « Contient des données reproduites et distribuées « telles quelles » avec la permission de la Ville de Québec. ». Same issue as 2.1 3.2 Si vous développez une application qui contient, en tout ou en partie, des Données de la Ville, vous devez inclure l'avis suivant sur cette application : « Cette application contient des données ouvertes accordées sous licence « telles quelles » aux termes d’une licence d'utilisation des données de la Ville de Québec. L'octroi de la licence ne constitue pas une approbation de l’application par la Ville de Québec. » ou tout autre avis approuvé au préalable par écrit par la Ville. Same issue as 2.1 + we can't control any applications users of the OSM dataset apply. For reasons like this the import catalog has been set up, including the pages describing each import. 4. Modifications des ensembles de Données ou des conditions d’utilisation La Ville peut apporter en tout temps des modifications concernant les ensembles de Données ou les conditions d’utilisation. Le cas échéant, un avis de modification peut être publié sur la page d’accueil des ensembles de Données ou sur la présente page. Sauf indication contraire, toute modification entre en vigueur dès la publication de l’avis. This means that the City government can change the license. Although this only applies after data which has been obtained from their site after a certain date, OSM should state that the used data has been obtained before that particular date. To avoid any misunderstandings, special permission would be much better. 5.2.1 la Ville ne peut assurer qu’aucun tiers ne détient de droit d’auteur, droit moral ou autre type de droit de propriété intellectuelle à l’égard des ensembles de Données; Whoops! What happens if a third party claims copyright about imported data? Even with written permission from the City, this remains an issue. 7. Annulation de la licence en cas de non-respect La Ville se réserve le droit de résilier ou de suspendre votre licence d’utilisation aux ensembles de Données sans avis ni délai si elle estime que vous ne respectez pas les conditions d’utilisation, que vous contrevenez à la loi ou que vous portez préjudice à autrui. Le cas échéant, vous ne serez plus autorisé à utiliser ni à reproduire les ensembles de Données. Vous demeurez toutefois lié par toute entente de sous-licence que vous avez conclue dans l'exercice de vos droits aux termes de la présente licence avant la résiliation. This means we can't just import the data under their own license, because we have no guarantees that the City thinks we respect their license terms. 8. Lois et juridiction applicables La présente Entente et les droits des parties sont interprétés, appliqués et régis en conformité avec les lois en vigueur de la province du Québec et les lois du Canada, le cas échéant. Tout litige relatif à l’interprétation, l’application ou l’exécution de la présente licence ou de l’utilisation des Données devra être tranché par les tribunaux compétents siégeant dans la province de Québec. OSM is an international project, so this might be an issue, albeit theoretical, since most users of Québec data (city/province) will likely be from Canada. Conclusion: based on their license terms, I would say that this data cannot be imported into OSM, without an additional license. Clause 5.2.1 remains a problem though, and I can imagine that this could be a reason not to grant special permission to OSM at all. On the other hand, this can (should!) be addressed in an eventual request, explaining the role of the OSMF and the Data Working Group. Regards, Frank
Re: [Talk-ca] opendata datasets
Frank has clearly stated the limits of the Québec city license. I agree with his opinion. As Richard Weait said before Yes, it is wonderful that governments at all levels are learning about the benefits of Open Data but governments are struggling to participate effectively in the global Open Data environment. An other example of this is the new Québec government Open Data site http://www.ouvert.gouv.qc.ca/. After studying the subject for a long time, they started the site with only a few sets of data available. They invite us to ask for more and we should surely do. We should also discuss with them, convince them to go further. License is also a problem. See http://www.ouvert.gouv.qc.ca/?node=/licence. I have made a rapid comparison and I saw that Government of Québec and City of Québec licenses have similar restrictions. 1. Droits de propriété : L’Administration gouvernementale conserve tous les droits de propriété intellectuelle à l’égard des données ouvertes et vous reconnaissez n’avoir aucun droit de propriété intellectuelle, incluant les droits d’auteur, sur ces données. 2. Mention de la source : Dans le cadre de l’application de la présente licence, vous devez afficher la mention suivante : « Comprends des données ouvertes octroyées sous la licence d'utilisation des données ouvertes de l’Administration gouvernementale disponible à l’adresse Web : www.données.gouv.qc.ca Ce lien ouvre dans une nouvelle fenêtre. L'octroi de la licence n’implique aucune approbation par l’Administration gouvernementale de l’utilisation des données ouvertes qui en est faite. » 3. Responsabilité : Vous vous engagez à prendre fait et cause et à indemniser l’Administration gouvernementale de tous recours, réclamations, demandes, poursuites et autres procédures pris par toute personne relativement à l’objet de la présente licence. 4. Résiliation : La présente licence est automatiquement résiliée dans le cas d'un manquement de votre part aux obligations qui vous incombent en vertu de celle-ci. Pierre - Mail original - De : Frank Steggink stegg...@steggink.org À : talk-ca@openstreetmap.org Cc : Envoyé le : Mardi 31 juillet 2012 14h44 Objet : Re: [Talk-ca] opendata datasets On 31-7-2012 15:09, Bruno Remy wrote: Does this Quebec city Opendata Licence compatible with OSM? (Y/N) And Why? http://donnees.ville.quebec.qc.ca/licence.aspx I'll give this a try with my understanding of French, so be aware... ;) I'll only pay attention to the clauses which might be an issue for an eventual import in OSM. 2. Droits de propriété intellectuelle 2.1 La Ville conserve tous les droits de propriété intellectuelle à l’égard des Données et vous reconnaissez que vous n’avez aucun droit de propriété intellectuelle, incluant les droits d’auteur, sur les ensembles de Données. Si vous rendez les ensembles de Données accessibles à un tiers en octroyant une sous-licence, en format original ou modifié, vous devez lui fournir une copie des présentes conditions d’utilisation pour vous assurer qu’il respecte les conditions d’utilisation, sans les modifier. This means that OSM should inform all third parties about this license. How can this be done? And this should only apply to extracts which cover parts of Quebec City, and only when it includes City data. This is difficult with the current infrastructure. 3. Indication de la source des ensembles de Données 3.1 Vous devez inclure et maintenir l'avis suivant sur toute reproduction des ensembles de Données : « Contient des données reproduites et distribuées « telles quelles » avec la permission de la Ville de Québec. ». Same issue as 2.1 3.2 Si vous développez une application qui contient, en tout ou en partie, des Données de la Ville, vous devez inclure l'avis suivant sur cette application : « Cette application contient des données ouvertes accordées sous licence « telles quelles » aux termes d’une licence d'utilisation des données de la Ville de Québec. L'octroi de la licence ne constitue pas une approbation de l’application par la Ville de Québec. » ou tout autre avis approuvé au préalable par écrit par la Ville. Same issue as 2.1 + we can't control any applications users of the OSM dataset apply. For reasons like this the import catalog has been set up, including the pages describing each import. 4. Modifications des ensembles de Données ou des conditions d’utilisation La Ville peut apporter en tout temps des modifications concernant les ensembles de Données ou les conditions d’utilisation. Le cas échéant, un avis de modification peut être publié sur la page d’accueil des ensembles de Données ou sur la présente page. Sauf indication contraire, toute modification entre en vigueur dès la publication de l’avis. This means that the City government can change the license. Although this only applies after data which has been
Re: [Talk-ca] opendata datasets
Well now we have the big picture of what licences allows to us... or not. Indeed, it seems that opendata are more acurate as databases for mobile apps (witch transcend them), than beeing basicaly copy-pasted as row data. Thanks to all folks, and sorry for my 'epidermic' reaction this morning : i was just confused, as i said, by the contrast between increasing dataset availability and decreasing OSM's use. Potlatch and JOSM will remain our lasts weapons of David versus Goliath :) Cheers! Bruno Remy Le 2012-07-31 21:02, Pierre Béland infosbelas-...@yahoo.fr a écrit : Frank has clearly stated the limits of the Québec city license. I agree with his opinion. As Richard Weait said before Yes, it is wonderful that governments at all levels are learning about the benefits of Open Data but governments are struggling to participate effectively in the global Open Data environment. An other example of this is the new Québec government Open Data site http://www.ouvert.gouv.qc.ca/. After studying the subject for a long time, they started the site with only a few sets of data available. They invite us to ask for more and we should surely do. We should also discuss with them, convince them to go further. License is also a problem. See http://www.ouvert.gouv.qc.ca/?node=/licence. I have made a rapid comparison and I saw that Government of Québec and City of Québec licenses have similar restrictions. 1. Droits de propriété : L’Administration gouvernementale conserve tous les droits de propriété intellectuelle à l’égard des données ouvertes et vous reconnaissez n’avoir aucun droit de propriété intellectuelle, incluant les droits d’auteur, sur ces données. 2. Mention de la source : Dans le cadre de l’application de la présente licence, vous devez afficher la mention suivante : « Comprends des données ouvertes octroyées sous la licence d'utilisation des données ouvertes de l’Administration gouvernementale disponible à l’adresse Web : www.données.gouv.qc.ca http://www.xn--donnes-eva.gouv.qc.ca Ce lien ouvre dans une nouvelle fenêtre. L'octroi de la licence n’implique aucune approbation par l’Administration gouvernementale de l’utilisation des données ouvertes qui en est faite. » 3. Responsabilité : Vous vous engagez à prendre fait et cause et à indemniser l’Administration gouvernementale de tous recours, réclamations, demandes, poursuites et autres procédures pris par toute personne relativement à l’objet de la présente licence. 4. Résiliation : La présente licence est automatiquement résiliée dans le cas d'un manquement de votre part aux obligations qui vous incombent en vertu de celle-ci. Pierre - Mail original - De : Frank Steggink stegg...@steggink.org À : talk-ca@openstreetmap.org Cc : Envoyé le : Mardi 31 juillet 2012 14h44 Objet : Re: [Talk-ca] opendata datasets On 31-7-2012 15:09, Bruno Remy wrote: Does this Quebec city Opendata Licence compatible with OSM? (Y/N) And Why? http://donnees.ville.quebec.qc.ca/licence.aspx I'll give this a try with my understanding of French, so be aware... ;) I'll only pay attention to the clauses which might be an issue for an eventual import in OSM. 2. Droits de propriété intellectuelle 2.1 La Ville conserve tous les droits de propriété intellectuelle à l’égard des Données et vous reconnaissez que vous n’avez aucun droit de propriété intellectuelle, incluant les droits d’auteur, sur les ensembles de Données. Si vous rendez les ensembles de Données accessibles à un tiers en octroyant une sous-licence, en format original ou modifié, vous devez lui fournir une copie des présentes conditions d’utilisation pour vous assurer qu’il respecte les conditions d’utilisation, sans les modifier. This means that OSM should inform all third parties about this license. How can this be done? And this should only apply to extracts which cover parts of Quebec City, and only when it includes City data. This is difficult with the current infrastructure. 3. Indication de la source des ensembles de Données 3.1 Vous devez inclure et maintenir l'avis suivant sur toute reproduction des ensembles de Données : « Contient des données reproduites et distribuées « telles quelles » avec la permission de la Ville de Québec. ». Same issue as 2.1 3.2 Si vous développez une application qui contient, en tout ou en partie, des Données de la Ville, vous devez inclure l'avis suivant sur cette application : « Cette application contient des données ouvertes accordées sous licence « telles quelles » aux termes d’une licence d'utilisation des données de la Ville de Québec. L'octroi de la licence ne constitue pas une approbation de l’application par la Ville de Québec. » ou tout autre avis approuvé au préalable par écrit par la Ville. Same issue as 2.1 + we can't control any applications users of the OSM dataset apply. For reasons like
[Talk-ca] opendata datasets
Hello There are so many Dataset available with Opendata JOSM plug-in. The only way to import other datasets is to develop a module,unfortunatly documentation on wiki is quite poor; http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JOSM/Plugins/OpenData#Develop_a_module Does somebody have more details on howto develop OpenData modules? Thanks. -- Bruno Remy ___ Talk-ca mailing list Talk-ca@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
