Re: [Talk-GB] Deletions and newbie editors (was: Vandalism in London)

[Dan S]

That's interesting Andy, thanks

Dan

2014-10-05 23:07 GMT+01:00 SomeoneElse :
> With new editors though I sometimes think we forget how hard it is for
> someone to start editing now in e.g. the centre of London compared to when
> we "experienced mappers" started.  Here, for example (courtesy of Martijn
> Van Exel's "OSM Then and Now") is what the area I started mapping in looked
> like at around the time that I started:
>
> http://98.202.195.171/osm/16/32520/21295.png
>
> I went through at least three iterations of how the paths there should be
> tagged, committed numerous "X not joined properly to Y" sins and on at least
> one occasion managed to duplicate all the minor roads in the area.
>
> Many new mappers are just "hit and run" mappers and often it's easy to tidy
> up their contributions after they've long disappeared**. The ones who do
> stick around do need to be given a bit of time to get the hang of things -
> there are a lot of concepts to understand that really aren't obvious (the
> fact that the "map data" is more than just "the standard map style as seen
> at osm.org" is one of those).  However often a polite message helps - not a
> "you broke the map!" one, but more like "oh dear, something appears to have
> gone a bit wrong", together with an offer to assist and answer any other
> questions.
>
> As has been said earlier in previous thread, it doesn't make sense to
> restrict the ability to edit OSM data to people who understand what e.g.
> relations are.
>
> I'm certainly not the biggest fan of the way that iD does some things, but
> sometimes it seems to be being suggested that the people who wrote iD
> somehow "don't care" about OSM data quality and "if only it were more like
> JOSM" a number of these issues would go away.  The problem is that the task
> that iD sets itself is fundamentally different from the one that JOSM has.
> The quickest scan of the discussions on
> https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues would show that the balancing of
> "how to stop new editors from causing problems" with "how to allow new
> editors to contribute at all" is taken very seriously indeed***.
>
> I did try and do some systematic analysis to compare editors back in
> September last year
> (https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2013-September/068178.html),
> and in that the "newbie error rate" in iD was lower than in P2 (and other
> editors including JOSM, although the numbers are a bit too low to reliably
> draw conclusions there).
>
> This isn't so much an "iD" problem as a "new mappers" one (and we don't have
> so many new mappers coming forward that we can afford to shoo them away).
> We do have ways of seeing new mappers when they start
> (http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/newestosm.php and the IRC country bot
> feeds).  We have ways of being informed about changesets in an area that
> might be problematical (WhoDidIt among others), ways to collaborate (IRC
> country channels, forums, mailing lists, etc.) and everyone has the ability
> to contact new mappers near them and offer to help.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andy
>
>
> ** Of course, people who delete lots of things because they think they're
> editing _their own personal copy_ of the map data need to be addressed
> immediately - but those edits are easy to spot.
>
> *** Some of what it feels like from the other end of "the iD debate" was
> written up at
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2014-September/002551.html
> (obviously read the thread and links to get the full context of that, but
> suffice to say that the reason that iD isn't perfect is because it is trying
> to solve a Very Hard Problem).
>
>
>
> ___
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Re: [Talk-GB] Deletions and newbie editors

[David Woolley]

On 05/10/14 22:28, Lester Caine wrote:


All achievable if the API monitors the constraints
on relations and checks that what JOSM submits is complete.


That would represent a radical change in design philosophy.  At the 
moment, the code behind the API ("I" standards interface) implements 
very few business rules.  All it really knows about relations is that 
all the members must be currently live objects.  It implements the 
business rules by refusing changes outright.


The big advantage of that approach is that it allows decentralised 
addition of new features.  Anyone can add a new tag, tag value, or 
relation type and create clients and, possibly, renderers that use them, 
without needing a central authority to write code to support them.


Currently, it is the editors that implement business rules.  Whilst you 
could have common libraries, JOSM would need a Java one, but other 
clients would need ones for other languages or platforms.


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[Talk-GB] Stansted - cartography vs routing, and levels

[Stuart Reynolds]

Can you help?

I have a problem with Stansted, and don't know how to go about sorting it. 
Fundamentally, it is drawn so that it looks nice cartographically, but there 
are no routeable connections between the rail station and the coach station, or 
up into the terminal building. So I need to add some in, but levels keep 
getting in the way.

The coach station is at ground level. Really ground level. Currently all the 
bays are shown, but behind the coach station there isn't a footpath, but there 
is a roof. Unsurprisingly, pedestrians cannot use roofs! I can put a footpath 
underneath that, though, so it isn't really a problem. The problem starts to 
come when you go into the terminal building, which you do just behind the coach 
station in a number of places (where the north-projecting bits of roof are).

For those of you who don't know Stansted, the terminal building sits atop a 
built up bank. So the entrance has all the appearance of being at ground level, 
as it is just like a mini hill, but is really at level 1, as can be seen if you 
view the terminal from the air side, with all of the baggage handling areas on 
the true ground floor. The entrances from the coach station go in at true 
ground, there are then footpaths/ramps/lifts/escalators down to the rail 
station at level -1, and up to the terminal building. The terminal building, 
though, is currently set to level 0 and I am loath to change it in case that 
makes it appear to be up in the air - and as I said, the air side of the 
terminal really does sit on the ground, and it is mapped as one building. The 
only part of the terminal that is currently mapped as level 1 is a passenger 
air bridge, which really is a walkway over a road. But it is a flat walk out of 
the level 0 terminal!

I don't want to break it, but I need to reflect the routing options, lifts, 
escalators, ramps, etc. But how should I enter these? As "visible" elements, or 
as hidden elements? And how should I show the tunnels from the ground level 
coach station under the terminal building as tunnels, and...

You can see why I am confused!

Many thanks
Stuart

---
Stuart Reynolds
For traveline south east & anglia

email: stu...@travelinesoutheast.org.uk
mob: 07788 106165
skype: stuartjreynolds


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Re: [Talk-GB] Deletions and newbie editors

[Lester Caine]

On 06/10/14 09:26, David Woolley wrote:
> On 05/10/14 22:28, Lester Caine wrote:
> 
>> All achievable if the API monitors the constraints
>> on relations and checks that what JOSM submits is complete.
> 
> That would represent a radical change in design philosophy.  At the
> moment, the code behind the API ("I" standards interface) implements
> very few business rules.  All it really knows about relations is that
> all the members must be currently live objects.  It implements the
> business rules by refusing changes outright.
> 
> The big advantage of that approach is that it allows decentralised
> addition of new features.  Anyone can add a new tag, tag value, or
> relation type and create clients and, possibly, renderers that use them,
> without needing a central authority to write code to support them.
> 
> Currently, it is the editors that implement business rules.  Whilst you
> could have common libraries, JOSM would need a Java one, but other
> clients would need ones for other languages or platforms.

The decentralised approach only works if ALL the edit tools are able to
ensure data integrity. We are now adding a layer of material that can
only be created by relations, and if someone is going to have to
manually check every one when any changes are added to the general area
it can only get worse. Coastline is probably a good example of the
problems maintaining continuous relations? That Antje has spent a lot of
time creating data which is now being destroyed is the problem and I'd
rather see some edits blocked instead of breaking the integrity of other
data. I don't see that a test for a constraint ensuring continuity is a
block to decentralisation, if only to flag that something does need fixing!

This is not a 'radical change' but rather that we now need tools that
can handle this secondary layer of material. This may need more tools
like the coastline tests but the underlying 'rules' still need to be
respected.

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
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Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] Stansted - cartography vs routing, and levels

[Richard Mann]

Layers are _relative_, so I'd use layer=0 (ie default) for the layer with
the most detail (probably the public area of the terminal building), and if
that has to use stairs or escalators to fit in with adjacent layer=0 areas
then so be it.

Richard

On Mon, Oct 6, 2014 at 10:20 AM, Stuart Reynolds <
stu...@travelinesoutheast.org.uk> wrote:

>  Can you help?
>
>
>
> I have a problem with Stansted, and don’t know how to go about sorting it.
> Fundamentally, it is drawn so that it looks nice cartographically, but
> there are no routeable connections between the rail station and the coach
> station, or up into the terminal building. So I need to add some in, but
> levels keep getting in the way.
>
>
>
> The coach station is at ground level. Really ground level. Currently all
> the bays are shown, but behind the coach station there isn’t a footpath,
> but there is a roof. Unsurprisingly, pedestrians cannot use roofs! I can
> put a footpath underneath that, though, so it isn’t really a problem. The
> problem starts to come when you go into the terminal building, which you do
> just behind the coach station in a number of places (where the
> north-projecting bits of roof are).
>
>
>
> For those of you who don’t know Stansted, the terminal building sits atop
> a built up bank. So the entrance has all the appearance of being at ground
> level, as it is just like a mini hill, but is really at level 1, as can be
> seen if you view the terminal from the air side, with all of the baggage
> handling areas on the true ground floor. The entrances from the coach
> station go in at true ground, there are then
> footpaths/ramps/lifts/escalators down to the rail station at level -1, and
> up to the terminal building. The terminal building, though, is currently
> set to level 0 and I am loath to change it in case that makes it appear to
> be up in the air - and as I said, the air side of the terminal really does
> sit on the ground, and it is mapped as one building. The only part of the
> terminal that is currently mapped as level 1 is a passenger air bridge,
> which really is a walkway over a road. But it is a flat walk out of the
> level 0 terminal!
>
>
>
> I don’t want to break it, but I need to reflect the routing options,
> lifts, escalators, ramps, etc. But how should I enter these? As “visible”
> elements, or as hidden elements? And how should I show the tunnels from the
> ground level coach station under the terminal building as tunnels, and…
>
>
>
> You can see why I am confused!
>
>
>
> Many thanks
>
> Stuart
>
>
>
> ---
>
> Stuart Reynolds
>
> For traveline south east & anglia
>
>
>
> email: stu...@travelinesoutheast.org.uk
>
> mob: 07788 106165
>
> skype: stuartjreynolds
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Deletions and newbie editors

[David Woolley]

On 05/10/14 21:31, David Woolley wrote:


Whilst the archive exists and is accessible, what I'm not aware of is an
API interface that allows one to retrieve the versions of objects that
existed at a particular date.


It has been pointed out to me, off list, that the overpass API can 
retrieve a back-dated version.  Although I haven't tried this out yet, 
this would seem to be the option: 
.


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Re: [Talk-GB] Deletions and newbie editors (was: Vandalism in London)

[Tom Chance]

I'd echo Andy's comments, particularly about politely contacting all new
users in your neck of the woods.

My principal difficulty is in working out what people have done in each
changeset. The best tool we had for this - OWL - is now defunct. This let
you browse around the area looking at all changesets, seeing features that
had been deleted / moved / tagged, getting popups with more info, and being
able to go through to the changeset.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OWL

It would be wonderful if somebody could resurrect that tool!

Regards,
Tom

On 5 October 2014 23:07, SomeoneElse  wrote:

> With new editors though I sometimes think we forget how hard it is for
> someone to start editing now in e.g. the centre of London compared to when
> we "experienced mappers" started.  Here, for example (courtesy of Martijn
> Van Exel's "OSM Then and Now") is what the area I started mapping in looked
> like at around the time that I started:
>
> http://98.202.195.171/osm/16/32520/21295.png
>
> I went through at least three iterations of how the paths there should be
> tagged, committed numerous "X not joined properly to Y" sins and on at
> least one occasion managed to duplicate all the minor roads in the area.
>
> Many new mappers are just "hit and run" mappers and often it's easy to
> tidy up their contributions after they've long disappeared**. The ones who
> do stick around do need to be given a bit of time to get the hang of things
> - there are a lot of concepts to understand that really aren't obvious (the
> fact that the "map data" is more than just "the standard map style as seen
> at osm.org" is one of those).  However often a polite message helps - not
> a "you broke the map!" one, but more like "oh dear, something appears to
> have gone a bit wrong", together with an offer to assist and answer any
> other questions.
>
> As has been said earlier in previous thread, it doesn't make sense to
> restrict the ability to edit OSM data to people who understand what e.g.
> relations are.
>
> I'm certainly not the biggest fan of the way that iD does some things, but
> sometimes it seems to be being suggested that the people who wrote iD
> somehow "don't care" about OSM data quality and "if only it were more like
> JOSM" a number of these issues would go away.  The problem is that the task
> that iD sets itself is fundamentally different from the one that JOSM has.
> The quickest scan of the discussions on https://github.com/
> openstreetmap/iD/issues would show that the balancing of "how to stop new
> editors from causing problems" with "how to allow new editors to contribute
> at all" is taken very seriously indeed***.
>
> I did try and do some systematic analysis to compare editors back in
> September last year (https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2013-
> September/068178.html), and in that the "newbie error rate" in iD was
> lower than in P2 (and other editors including JOSM, although the numbers
> are a bit too low to reliably draw conclusions there).
>
> This isn't so much an "iD" problem as a "new mappers" one (and we don't
> have so many new mappers coming forward that we can afford to shoo them
> away).  We do have ways of seeing new mappers when they start (
> http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/newestosm.php and the IRC country bot
> feeds).  We have ways of being informed about changesets in an area that
> might be problematical (WhoDidIt among others), ways to collaborate (IRC
> country channels, forums, mailing lists, etc.) and everyone has the ability
> to contact new mappers near them and offer to help.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andy
>
>
> ** Of course, people who delete lots of things because they think they're
> editing _their own personal copy_ of the map data need to be addressed
> immediately - but those edits are easy to spot.
>
> *** Some of what it feels like from the other end of "the iD debate" was
> written up at https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2014-
> September/002551.html (obviously read the thread and links to get the
> full context of that, but suffice to say that the reason that iD isn't
> perfect is because it is trying to solve a Very Hard Problem).
>
>
>
> ___
> Talk-GB mailing list
> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>



-- 
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Re: [Talk-GB] Deletions and newbie editors (was: Vandalism in London)

[SomeoneElse]

On 06/10/2014 11:30, Tom Chance wrote:



My principal difficulty is in working out what people have done in 
each changeset. The best tool we had for this - OWL - is now defunct. 
This let you browse around the area looking at all changesets, seeing 
features that had been deleted / moved / tagged, getting popups with 
more info, and being able to go through to the changeset.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OWL




(just in case people aren't aware) a couple of other options are the OSM 
history viewer:


http://osmhv.openstreetmap.de/index.jsp

and Achavi:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Achavi

Cheers,

Andy


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Re: [Talk-GB] Deletions and newbie editors

[Lester Caine]

On 06/10/14 10:35, David Woolley wrote:
> On 05/10/14 21:31, David Woolley wrote:
> 
>> Whilst the archive exists and is accessible, what I'm not aware of is an
>> API interface that allows one to retrieve the versions of objects that
>> existed at a particular date.
> 
> It has been pointed out to me, off list, that the overpass API can
> retrieve a back-dated version.  Although I haven't tried this out yet,
> this would seem to be the option:
> .

The information is available, but as yet there is no joined up method of
doing some things. As far as I am aware. That allows you to see the
state of the data at a time, but not a view of what exists at that time.

If the start_date is correctly added to every object in an area of the
map, then by changing the limit created by selecting a particular date,
you see a set of data based on that date. This is fine for objects that
still exist, but leaves a hole where objects have changed and it is this
that OHM is trying to address. Trying to merge data from the current
'filtered' view and some alternate source is the tricky bit. Reading a
CURRENT set of data will include the state_date tag and so filtering
that can happen locally, but adding the essentially quite small amount
of historic changes is not so easy to achieve?

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
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Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

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